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Te article, as written, resembles to a blog and uses blogs as references.-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 03:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
The statement
During sentencing, the trial judge John Bartels stated on the record that he did not consider Bušić "a terrorist or a criminal" and that although his methods were wrong, his action was motivated by noble ideals; that is, Croatian independence
is a forgery. From http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/592/13/258617/ is visible that the appelate judges were LUMBARD, FEINBERG and TIMBERS, Circuit Judges. The sentence also states:
Terrorism, both domestic and international, is one of the gravest problems of our day. The skyjacking here involved was a heinous example of such terrorism. It resulted in the death of a New York City police officer and the maiming of other police officers. The lives of eighty-five passengers and seven members of the crew of the TWA plane were placed in jeopardy during the twenty-seven hour skyjacking which terminated when the plane, which took off from New York for Chicago and was not intended for trans-ocean flights, was forced by the skyjackers to fly across the Atlantic and to land at Paris, after refueling stops at Montreal, Newfoundland, Iceland and London.
I don't understand the point or your use of the term "forgery" ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
The judge John Bartels' opinion comes from a letter (see http://www.zvonkobusic.com/dokumenti/b1.pdf) sent to the US Parole Commission Northeast Region, Philadelphia PA on June 13, 1989
Yes. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
As of referencing Silberman, Laurence H. in (Spring, 1977), Foreign Policy, pp. 3–27, there is no trace of any Siberman's opinion about this case. The Silberman's article was published before the sentence was delivered. The other reference even did not mentioned Silberman in any context ("the Yugoslavian government applied strong and successful pressure on the State Department to punish Zvonko and his group to the harshest possible degree by denying parole beyond the trial judge's recommendation"). -- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 04:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
The Silverman article does indeed reference this specific case, on page 21 of the article. His statements on that page go far beyond the brief reference to Yugoslav influence made in this Wikipedia article. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
In the article is not mentioned that Busic [1] escaped from prison nor about suspicion that he involved in LaGuardia bombing nor about kin of slain cop rage after Croat terrorist Zvonko Busic is freed, sent packing.-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 00:40, 28 June 2011(UTC)
Stating as fact that Busic is guilty of a heinous unsolved crime is inappropriate for a Wikipedia article about a living person ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
Stating as fact your personal opinion that a living person is guilty of a heinous unsolved crime violates Wikipedia's standards for living persons. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively with regard to the subject's privacy. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 18:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
I've reverted the article to the version that existed before you added this objectionable material. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 18:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
Stating as fact your personal opinion that a living person is guilty of a heinous unsolved crime violates Wikipedia's standards for living persons. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively with regard to the subject's privacy. Wikipedia policy is to remove this objectionable material without discussion. Reverting again to previous version before the objectionable material was inserted. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 21:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
20:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
To Sowberryhagan:
I am happy to address any concerns you have with this article. However, your two statements at the opening of this article are a violation of the living person standard of Wikipedia.
These two statements are:
"Is a terrorist of Croatian lineage" and "mastermind ... of a bombing of Grand Central Station in New York"
"Is a terrorist" is your personal opinion. It makes as much sense as to say that Nelson Mandela "is a terrorist of South African lineage" as the first statement in his article. The fact that somebody committed acts in the past that could be considered terrorist by some does not imply that they are currently a terrorist. Your statement is objectionable, controversial, insulting, and libellous. It violates Wikipedia living person standards and will be removed without discussion.
The statement that the subject masterminded a "bombing of Grand Central Station" is false, there was no bombing in Grand Central Station. "Bombing" in English implies that a bomb was detonated. There was no bomb detonated in Grand Central Station. There was no intent to detonate a bomb in Grand Central Station. The subject left a device with explicit instructions for disarming, with the intent that it be disarmed. That act is not a "bombing". The subject was not convicted of "bombing". The statement is literally false on several levels and libellous.
All your criticisms of this article are trivial and easily addressed. But they will not be addressed in an article containing these two false and libellous statements at the top of the article. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 14:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC))
All of you who responded to my changes done earlier, bear in mind:
It is disgusting to compare ordinary terrorists to Nelson Mandela, Nobel prize Winner, and a great man who did not kill anyone nor did any act of terrorism in his life.-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 17:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Here is what I've written earlier on this talk page:
From http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/592/13/258617/ is visible that the appelate judges were LUMBARD, FEINBERG and TIMBERS, Circuit Judges. The sentence also states:
Terrorism, both domestic and international, is one of the gravest problems of our day. The skyjacking here involved was a heinous example of such terrorism. It resulted in the death of a New York City police officer and the maiming of other police officers. The lives of eighty-five passengers and seven members of the crew of the TWA plane were placed in jeopardy during the twenty-seven hour skyjacking which terminated when the plane, which took off from New York for Chicago and was not intended for trans-ocean flights, was forced by the skyjackers to fly across the Atlantic and to land at Paris, after refueling stops at Montreal, Newfoundland, Iceland and London.
The above quote comes from a valid and legal US Court document!
Furthermore, from the mainstream media: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946611-1,00.html
The terrorists seized control of flight 355 by threatening that at least one of the group would detonate an explosive he had presumably carried on board under his clothes; such a bomb would not be detectable with present airport security systems. The leader was a beefy, bearded man. "He was the goon, but he was nice," recalled one passenger, James Perkins, a regional sales manager for Schenley. "He kept his hand in his pocket all the time, as if he had a gun." One of the skyjackers was a young woman who claimed she was an American and was married to another member of the group. The terrorists were polite once in command, distributing to all the passengers leaflets explaining their organization, "Fighters for Free Croatia," and their aims. But they ordered the plane to turn north toward Montreal, where it landed at Mirabel International Airport and was refueled.
Where and which way is POV to name terrorists as terrorists?!-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 17:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the material that said Bartels said complimentary things ("noble") during sentencing. The sources were unverifiable, and when I looked for sources, I found precisely the opposite (which I did not put in the article as it was unnecessary). Here are two examples: #1; #2. I also tightened the material in the same section.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 21:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I also removed one of the individuals mentioned in the Hijacking section. He is not mentioned in the 2nd Circuit opinion, and I added a newspaper cite that only four people were convicted. Nor do the sources cited in the main article (which also has five) seem to support the 5th person. Some of the sources don't reference him at all. One Croatian source I can't figure out even after a Google translation. If he actually participated and there is a reliable source for that, he can be added back in with a source.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 21:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I still do not see reasons for removal two of previous sections that are seriously written and referenced fully. Thus, I've put them back.-- 66.151.103.8 ( talk) 20:23, 7 July 2011
Of course, this man is a terrorist, publicly and legally. Croatian emigrant? Where, in his native country? He was initially an American immigrant, for a couple years; after he was a jail bird for 32 years, then his immigrant status was revoked and he was expelled from the U.S., for good.
Moreover, he was a member of the Croatian National Resistance, a terrorist organization banned in Germany in 1980ies. As a terrorist and a member of a terrorist organization, this man cannot ever enter Germany, nor even EU.
I saw that a whole paragraph about public reaction to this terrorist release from the prison was removed. Why? Why it is important to address the attitudes of those who worked on his release then?
As far as I see, the article is heavily biased and contains incomplete information like: came to Vienna, Austria to study (college dropout, I assume), not guilty of the policeman's death because of someone's negligence and lack of protection of those involved in defusing the bomb (rejected by the US Court)(!).
What "Taik" means here? Something like "Che" or "Mahatma"? -- Eleven Nine ( talk) 12:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Last week I've contacted RIPE Network Coordination Centre, Amsterdam Netherlands asking them not to host Busic's blog (www.zvonkobusic.com). Got their thank-you response and had the blog not hosted by this company as of Friday, July 15th. Now it is time to remove this blog from Wikipedia.-- Eleven Nine ( talk) 12:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
-- 209.51.184.10 ( talk) 11:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The article is heavily tilted toward Croatian nationalism. No one is a patriot, a freedom fighter by committing terrorist acts: hijacking a passenger plane, killing a police officer.
A sad thing is that the users who tried to introduce some sense to the article are chased away.-- 96.241.218.72 ( talk) 19:56, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Zvonko Busic, a Croatian nationalist who served more than three decades in U.S. prisons for a 1976 hijacking and a bombing that killed a New York City policeman, has committed suicide. He was 67.
Says he finished school in Imotski (maybe at that Mate Ujević gymnasium), but graduated in Zagreb.
Does this have something to do with taking the matura in a city, or is this a contradiction?
Education in Croatia didn't help me, maybe you? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
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While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Te article, as written, resembles to a blog and uses blogs as references.-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 03:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
The statement
During sentencing, the trial judge John Bartels stated on the record that he did not consider Bušić "a terrorist or a criminal" and that although his methods were wrong, his action was motivated by noble ideals; that is, Croatian independence
is a forgery. From http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/592/13/258617/ is visible that the appelate judges were LUMBARD, FEINBERG and TIMBERS, Circuit Judges. The sentence also states:
Terrorism, both domestic and international, is one of the gravest problems of our day. The skyjacking here involved was a heinous example of such terrorism. It resulted in the death of a New York City police officer and the maiming of other police officers. The lives of eighty-five passengers and seven members of the crew of the TWA plane were placed in jeopardy during the twenty-seven hour skyjacking which terminated when the plane, which took off from New York for Chicago and was not intended for trans-ocean flights, was forced by the skyjackers to fly across the Atlantic and to land at Paris, after refueling stops at Montreal, Newfoundland, Iceland and London.
I don't understand the point or your use of the term "forgery" ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
The judge John Bartels' opinion comes from a letter (see http://www.zvonkobusic.com/dokumenti/b1.pdf) sent to the US Parole Commission Northeast Region, Philadelphia PA on June 13, 1989
Yes. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
As of referencing Silberman, Laurence H. in (Spring, 1977), Foreign Policy, pp. 3–27, there is no trace of any Siberman's opinion about this case. The Silberman's article was published before the sentence was delivered. The other reference even did not mentioned Silberman in any context ("the Yugoslavian government applied strong and successful pressure on the State Department to punish Zvonko and his group to the harshest possible degree by denying parole beyond the trial judge's recommendation"). -- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 04:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
The Silverman article does indeed reference this specific case, on page 21 of the article. His statements on that page go far beyond the brief reference to Yugoslav influence made in this Wikipedia article. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
In the article is not mentioned that Busic [1] escaped from prison nor about suspicion that he involved in LaGuardia bombing nor about kin of slain cop rage after Croat terrorist Zvonko Busic is freed, sent packing.-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 00:40, 28 June 2011(UTC)
Stating as fact that Busic is guilty of a heinous unsolved crime is inappropriate for a Wikipedia article about a living person ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 16:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
Stating as fact your personal opinion that a living person is guilty of a heinous unsolved crime violates Wikipedia's standards for living persons. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively with regard to the subject's privacy. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 18:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
I've reverted the article to the version that existed before you added this objectionable material. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 18:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
Stating as fact your personal opinion that a living person is guilty of a heinous unsolved crime violates Wikipedia's standards for living persons. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively with regard to the subject's privacy. Wikipedia policy is to remove this objectionable material without discussion. Reverting again to previous version before the objectionable material was inserted. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 21:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC))
20:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
To Sowberryhagan:
I am happy to address any concerns you have with this article. However, your two statements at the opening of this article are a violation of the living person standard of Wikipedia.
These two statements are:
"Is a terrorist of Croatian lineage" and "mastermind ... of a bombing of Grand Central Station in New York"
"Is a terrorist" is your personal opinion. It makes as much sense as to say that Nelson Mandela "is a terrorist of South African lineage" as the first statement in his article. The fact that somebody committed acts in the past that could be considered terrorist by some does not imply that they are currently a terrorist. Your statement is objectionable, controversial, insulting, and libellous. It violates Wikipedia living person standards and will be removed without discussion.
The statement that the subject masterminded a "bombing of Grand Central Station" is false, there was no bombing in Grand Central Station. "Bombing" in English implies that a bomb was detonated. There was no bomb detonated in Grand Central Station. There was no intent to detonate a bomb in Grand Central Station. The subject left a device with explicit instructions for disarming, with the intent that it be disarmed. That act is not a "bombing". The subject was not convicted of "bombing". The statement is literally false on several levels and libellous.
All your criticisms of this article are trivial and easily addressed. But they will not be addressed in an article containing these two false and libellous statements at the top of the article. ( Sowberryhagan ( talk) 14:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC))
All of you who responded to my changes done earlier, bear in mind:
It is disgusting to compare ordinary terrorists to Nelson Mandela, Nobel prize Winner, and a great man who did not kill anyone nor did any act of terrorism in his life.-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 17:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Here is what I've written earlier on this talk page:
From http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/592/13/258617/ is visible that the appelate judges were LUMBARD, FEINBERG and TIMBERS, Circuit Judges. The sentence also states:
Terrorism, both domestic and international, is one of the gravest problems of our day. The skyjacking here involved was a heinous example of such terrorism. It resulted in the death of a New York City police officer and the maiming of other police officers. The lives of eighty-five passengers and seven members of the crew of the TWA plane were placed in jeopardy during the twenty-seven hour skyjacking which terminated when the plane, which took off from New York for Chicago and was not intended for trans-ocean flights, was forced by the skyjackers to fly across the Atlantic and to land at Paris, after refueling stops at Montreal, Newfoundland, Iceland and London.
The above quote comes from a valid and legal US Court document!
Furthermore, from the mainstream media: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946611-1,00.html
The terrorists seized control of flight 355 by threatening that at least one of the group would detonate an explosive he had presumably carried on board under his clothes; such a bomb would not be detectable with present airport security systems. The leader was a beefy, bearded man. "He was the goon, but he was nice," recalled one passenger, James Perkins, a regional sales manager for Schenley. "He kept his hand in his pocket all the time, as if he had a gun." One of the skyjackers was a young woman who claimed she was an American and was married to another member of the group. The terrorists were polite once in command, distributing to all the passengers leaflets explaining their organization, "Fighters for Free Croatia," and their aims. But they ordered the plane to turn north toward Montreal, where it landed at Mirabel International Airport and was refueled.
Where and which way is POV to name terrorists as terrorists?!-- 71.191.31.183 ( talk) 17:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the material that said Bartels said complimentary things ("noble") during sentencing. The sources were unverifiable, and when I looked for sources, I found precisely the opposite (which I did not put in the article as it was unnecessary). Here are two examples: #1; #2. I also tightened the material in the same section.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 21:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I also removed one of the individuals mentioned in the Hijacking section. He is not mentioned in the 2nd Circuit opinion, and I added a newspaper cite that only four people were convicted. Nor do the sources cited in the main article (which also has five) seem to support the 5th person. Some of the sources don't reference him at all. One Croatian source I can't figure out even after a Google translation. If he actually participated and there is a reliable source for that, he can be added back in with a source.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 21:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I still do not see reasons for removal two of previous sections that are seriously written and referenced fully. Thus, I've put them back.-- 66.151.103.8 ( talk) 20:23, 7 July 2011
Of course, this man is a terrorist, publicly and legally. Croatian emigrant? Where, in his native country? He was initially an American immigrant, for a couple years; after he was a jail bird for 32 years, then his immigrant status was revoked and he was expelled from the U.S., for good.
Moreover, he was a member of the Croatian National Resistance, a terrorist organization banned in Germany in 1980ies. As a terrorist and a member of a terrorist organization, this man cannot ever enter Germany, nor even EU.
I saw that a whole paragraph about public reaction to this terrorist release from the prison was removed. Why? Why it is important to address the attitudes of those who worked on his release then?
As far as I see, the article is heavily biased and contains incomplete information like: came to Vienna, Austria to study (college dropout, I assume), not guilty of the policeman's death because of someone's negligence and lack of protection of those involved in defusing the bomb (rejected by the US Court)(!).
What "Taik" means here? Something like "Che" or "Mahatma"? -- Eleven Nine ( talk) 12:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Last week I've contacted RIPE Network Coordination Centre, Amsterdam Netherlands asking them not to host Busic's blog (www.zvonkobusic.com). Got their thank-you response and had the blog not hosted by this company as of Friday, July 15th. Now it is time to remove this blog from Wikipedia.-- Eleven Nine ( talk) 12:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
-- 209.51.184.10 ( talk) 11:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The article is heavily tilted toward Croatian nationalism. No one is a patriot, a freedom fighter by committing terrorist acts: hijacking a passenger plane, killing a police officer.
A sad thing is that the users who tried to introduce some sense to the article are chased away.-- 96.241.218.72 ( talk) 19:56, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Zvonko Busic, a Croatian nationalist who served more than three decades in U.S. prisons for a 1976 hijacking and a bombing that killed a New York City policeman, has committed suicide. He was 67.
Says he finished school in Imotski (maybe at that Mate Ujević gymnasium), but graduated in Zagreb.
Does this have something to do with taking the matura in a city, or is this a contradiction?
Education in Croatia didn't help me, maybe you? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Zvonko Bušić. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC)