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Great story. some of this deserves to be here, but some of it is obviously wartime propaganda. Better phrasing should help - e.g. "It is claimed" might be used - if we can say who claimed it - rather than stating things as fact that with a little thought, we should know cannot be documented - or even know - as fact. Smallbones 18:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
She was a soldier tortured to death. Soldiers now and then destroy properties of life. It does not give us the right to classify them as arsonists or terrorists. It is OK to attribute this opinion to somebody. It is OK to show that Soviet propaganda gilded her biography and show the dark and grey pages. It is not OK to specify libels as facts Alex Bakharev 05:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | After personally burning down several peasant houses occupied by the enemy
in the village of Petrishchevo (Vereya District/Moscow Region), and cutting some telephone wires, Kosmodem'yanskaya returned to the village, in order to set fire to a presumed storehouse (which turned out to be a cavalry stable). She was caught in the act by a German sentry. Her captors led her to the house of peasant Mariya lvanovna Sedova, where they undressed her and began to interrogate her. |
” |
Try this argument at talk:Jewish resistance during the Holocaust or talk:Polish resistance movement in World War II. "For Jews (Poles)" (and most of the decent people) "they were heroes. For Nazis they were arsonists and saboteurs. NPOV."
Good luck. After that, get back to us here with how it all went. Disgusting! -- Irpen 05:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes Suva, you are right, I don't think the Nazi POV was/is relevant. Why? Because they were an invading, occupying force of genocidal maniacs. -- Mista-X 12:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have put some Controversy section. Please check if I miss something important Alex Bakharev 16:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, I removed the shocking image of the tortured dead young girl from the article. This image does not add enough content to justify its shocking value. Personally, I won't be able to look and edit this article with this image there. Let's not put it back. -- Irpen 19:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see the propaganda angle explored a bit more, without any attempt to degrade Zoya. e.g. there doesn't seem to be any reason to accuse her of the crime of arson, but there also doesn't seem to be any reason to include a picture that is at best ghastly propaganda. Please check the dates of the execution and the photo, and the story of the first article. To me this just doesn't add up. Maybe we could get a pix of the statue at the Moscow Metro station Partisanskaya? Smallbones 02:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Googling around, it's easy to see that classification of Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya's acts as sabotage is unequivocal, and done by both Pravda and neo-Nazis. If so diverse sources agree, it should be obvious that classifying her as a saboteur is WP:NPOV. (Not to mention that the military unit she served in was a designated recon/sabotage group.)
Irpen, do you have any rational reasons to remove this classification? Emotional attachment does not qualify as such a reason under Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Digwuren 19:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Since when is saboteur a provocation? It's more like a proffesion. Your problem, Ghirla, is that you are assuming bad faith. Suva 19:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
As seen above, there's a disagreement over whether it's factual to classify Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya as an arsonist, under Category:Arsonists. On one hand, there are sources explaining her experience in fireraising, and several that appear to state that the Nazis caught her while trying to set fire to a building (whose purpose is unclear, but which might have been either a stable or a storage building); on another, there are positions likening this categorisation to blasphemy. In order to sort out this mess, I'll request an RFC. Digwuren 18:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no need for me to "represent what's going on above" since "above" is available for anyone to read. -- Irpen 19:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is still unresolved (it probably has been by now), why not simply look up the articles of others who carried out similar actions in war and see how they're classified? There's bound to be plenty of them on Wikipedia somewhere. -- 204.57.106.201 ( talk) 19:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I will - as I edit the page for grammar, style and usage as I have been doing for other USSR/Baltic States articles - leave this word in, but in English usage this word belongs more with religious sacrificial victims than with political activists. I can think of other words to use (heroes, resistance fighters, partisans etc) which are more neutral but I don't want to offend sensibilities in the cause of non-emotive language or incorrect terminology. The word "martyr" does not fit with Ms Kosmodemyanskaya's biography because it is evident she was not the victim of religious persecution. If anyone can suggest a different word please leave a message on my talk page. Lstanley1979 ( talk) 19:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Dress vs. pants I can't answer. (Maybe a comparison to the young lady with a gun at Ploschad Revolutsii might suggest an answer!) Also, many female statues in Moscow (everywhere?) seem to have (by modern western interpretations) a sexist attitude. Say hello to the Izmailovsky Hotel for me!
Taking a look at Socialist Realism it seems that every female has a skirt. And most of the buildings have an ediface complex. Part of the reason may be that skirts are/were more commonly used as work clothing in Russia, many times with pants or thick tights underneath.
But could you take (and donate with proper license - e.g. "public domain") a good photo of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya at Metro Partizanskaya? The problem with all those other pix, is that there is no copyright clearance. While you're there, maybe a pix of the young lady at Poschad Rev as well?? (It's on your line)
Smallbones ( talk) 17:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)1. We could ask the photo workshop people to crop the photos, if you'd like. I'd suggest cropping above the head, below the feet, and outside the backing marble column, so as to include the full statue, but as little else as possible.
2. You can read the inscriptions perfectly. Note that Zoya's starts out saying "legendary."
3. Matvey's definitely says "Hero of the Soviet Union." I was looking for some documentation of this claim, and it is hard to find. There's a ship named for him, his name doesn't appear to be on the "semi-official, semi-commercial" HoftheSU website. There is something about him on the Pskov (?) city/tourist website, but that info seems to contractict the info on this inscription. (In any case) I don't have any good info on Matvey (other than the ship)
Thanks again,
Smallbones ( talk) 17:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The inscription of the statue of her in the Partizanskaya Metro Station in Moscow spells her surname KOSMODEMYANSKOI, not -SKAYA. I know Skaya is the feminine form, but why is it not used here? Presumably the Soviet authorities who erected the statue knew what her name was. Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 16:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
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There is no reference to the obvious fact that this girl was used as a propaganda tool by the Soviet regime. She may not have done anything she was alleged to have done, or even existed for that matter. The Soviets were very creative with their propaganda. The alleged quotes were obviously created by Stalin's propagandists, and should not be taken as reliable any more than we can rely on Shakespeare to have accurately quoted MacBeth etc. Royalcourtier ( talk) 18:56, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Go ahead and find a RS for that. The "Controversy" section of this article might give you some ideas.-- 188.167.141.68 ( talk) 08:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
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Earlier this year I added a "one source" tag to the article's "controversy" section and it seems that half a year later the problem still hasn't been addressed yet. The section is more or less a summary of a web page titled Legends of the Great Patriotic War: Zoya Kosomodemyanskaya, from an unknown source. The page mentioned several articles published in the 90s. None of them seemed to be from prominent authors and there is no third party sources on the articles' importance. Much more than that would be needed to justify a "controversy" section that makes up 1/3 of the entire article, and even if the information listed is actually relevant enough, the section should not be based on a single web page. Until I can find more sources I am going to reorganize the section and reduce the 1990s controversy part to one or two paragraphs long. Esiymbro ( talk) 14:54, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya is a common terrorist mastering acts of terror against own people on pretense of "sabotage against armies of Nazi Germany". Not a single Nazi German combatant suffered following her acts of so called sabotage. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 18:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
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Great story. some of this deserves to be here, but some of it is obviously wartime propaganda. Better phrasing should help - e.g. "It is claimed" might be used - if we can say who claimed it - rather than stating things as fact that with a little thought, we should know cannot be documented - or even know - as fact. Smallbones 18:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
She was a soldier tortured to death. Soldiers now and then destroy properties of life. It does not give us the right to classify them as arsonists or terrorists. It is OK to attribute this opinion to somebody. It is OK to show that Soviet propaganda gilded her biography and show the dark and grey pages. It is not OK to specify libels as facts Alex Bakharev 05:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | After personally burning down several peasant houses occupied by the enemy
in the village of Petrishchevo (Vereya District/Moscow Region), and cutting some telephone wires, Kosmodem'yanskaya returned to the village, in order to set fire to a presumed storehouse (which turned out to be a cavalry stable). She was caught in the act by a German sentry. Her captors led her to the house of peasant Mariya lvanovna Sedova, where they undressed her and began to interrogate her. |
” |
Try this argument at talk:Jewish resistance during the Holocaust or talk:Polish resistance movement in World War II. "For Jews (Poles)" (and most of the decent people) "they were heroes. For Nazis they were arsonists and saboteurs. NPOV."
Good luck. After that, get back to us here with how it all went. Disgusting! -- Irpen 05:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes Suva, you are right, I don't think the Nazi POV was/is relevant. Why? Because they were an invading, occupying force of genocidal maniacs. -- Mista-X 12:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have put some Controversy section. Please check if I miss something important Alex Bakharev 16:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, I removed the shocking image of the tortured dead young girl from the article. This image does not add enough content to justify its shocking value. Personally, I won't be able to look and edit this article with this image there. Let's not put it back. -- Irpen 19:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see the propaganda angle explored a bit more, without any attempt to degrade Zoya. e.g. there doesn't seem to be any reason to accuse her of the crime of arson, but there also doesn't seem to be any reason to include a picture that is at best ghastly propaganda. Please check the dates of the execution and the photo, and the story of the first article. To me this just doesn't add up. Maybe we could get a pix of the statue at the Moscow Metro station Partisanskaya? Smallbones 02:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Googling around, it's easy to see that classification of Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya's acts as sabotage is unequivocal, and done by both Pravda and neo-Nazis. If so diverse sources agree, it should be obvious that classifying her as a saboteur is WP:NPOV. (Not to mention that the military unit she served in was a designated recon/sabotage group.)
Irpen, do you have any rational reasons to remove this classification? Emotional attachment does not qualify as such a reason under Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Digwuren 19:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Since when is saboteur a provocation? It's more like a proffesion. Your problem, Ghirla, is that you are assuming bad faith. Suva 19:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
As seen above, there's a disagreement over whether it's factual to classify Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya as an arsonist, under Category:Arsonists. On one hand, there are sources explaining her experience in fireraising, and several that appear to state that the Nazis caught her while trying to set fire to a building (whose purpose is unclear, but which might have been either a stable or a storage building); on another, there are positions likening this categorisation to blasphemy. In order to sort out this mess, I'll request an RFC. Digwuren 18:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no need for me to "represent what's going on above" since "above" is available for anyone to read. -- Irpen 19:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is still unresolved (it probably has been by now), why not simply look up the articles of others who carried out similar actions in war and see how they're classified? There's bound to be plenty of them on Wikipedia somewhere. -- 204.57.106.201 ( talk) 19:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I will - as I edit the page for grammar, style and usage as I have been doing for other USSR/Baltic States articles - leave this word in, but in English usage this word belongs more with religious sacrificial victims than with political activists. I can think of other words to use (heroes, resistance fighters, partisans etc) which are more neutral but I don't want to offend sensibilities in the cause of non-emotive language or incorrect terminology. The word "martyr" does not fit with Ms Kosmodemyanskaya's biography because it is evident she was not the victim of religious persecution. If anyone can suggest a different word please leave a message on my talk page. Lstanley1979 ( talk) 19:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Dress vs. pants I can't answer. (Maybe a comparison to the young lady with a gun at Ploschad Revolutsii might suggest an answer!) Also, many female statues in Moscow (everywhere?) seem to have (by modern western interpretations) a sexist attitude. Say hello to the Izmailovsky Hotel for me!
Taking a look at Socialist Realism it seems that every female has a skirt. And most of the buildings have an ediface complex. Part of the reason may be that skirts are/were more commonly used as work clothing in Russia, many times with pants or thick tights underneath.
But could you take (and donate with proper license - e.g. "public domain") a good photo of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya at Metro Partizanskaya? The problem with all those other pix, is that there is no copyright clearance. While you're there, maybe a pix of the young lady at Poschad Rev as well?? (It's on your line)
Smallbones ( talk) 17:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)1. We could ask the photo workshop people to crop the photos, if you'd like. I'd suggest cropping above the head, below the feet, and outside the backing marble column, so as to include the full statue, but as little else as possible.
2. You can read the inscriptions perfectly. Note that Zoya's starts out saying "legendary."
3. Matvey's definitely says "Hero of the Soviet Union." I was looking for some documentation of this claim, and it is hard to find. There's a ship named for him, his name doesn't appear to be on the "semi-official, semi-commercial" HoftheSU website. There is something about him on the Pskov (?) city/tourist website, but that info seems to contractict the info on this inscription. (In any case) I don't have any good info on Matvey (other than the ship)
Thanks again,
Smallbones ( talk) 17:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The inscription of the statue of her in the Partizanskaya Metro Station in Moscow spells her surname KOSMODEMYANSKOI, not -SKAYA. I know Skaya is the feminine form, but why is it not used here? Presumably the Soviet authorities who erected the statue knew what her name was. Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 16:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
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Cyberbot II has detected links on Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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There is no reference to the obvious fact that this girl was used as a propaganda tool by the Soviet regime. She may not have done anything she was alleged to have done, or even existed for that matter. The Soviets were very creative with their propaganda. The alleged quotes were obviously created by Stalin's propagandists, and should not be taken as reliable any more than we can rely on Shakespeare to have accurately quoted MacBeth etc. Royalcourtier ( talk) 18:56, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Go ahead and find a RS for that. The "Controversy" section of this article might give you some ideas.-- 188.167.141.68 ( talk) 08:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
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Earlier this year I added a "one source" tag to the article's "controversy" section and it seems that half a year later the problem still hasn't been addressed yet. The section is more or less a summary of a web page titled Legends of the Great Patriotic War: Zoya Kosomodemyanskaya, from an unknown source. The page mentioned several articles published in the 90s. None of them seemed to be from prominent authors and there is no third party sources on the articles' importance. Much more than that would be needed to justify a "controversy" section that makes up 1/3 of the entire article, and even if the information listed is actually relevant enough, the section should not be based on a single web page. Until I can find more sources I am going to reorganize the section and reduce the 1990s controversy part to one or two paragraphs long. Esiymbro ( talk) 14:54, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya is a common terrorist mastering acts of terror against own people on pretense of "sabotage against armies of Nazi Germany". Not a single Nazi German combatant suffered following her acts of so called sabotage. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 18:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)