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As far as I've been able to determine, there is no evidence (or academic consensus) for the idea that Zoroastrianism's ideas resulted in the creation of other religions (such as Islam, etc). The idea seems to be very WP:FRINGE, and most sources I come across say nothing about it. It is also massively controversial, and will be deeply offensive to members of said religions. Especially in light of evidence that those religions likely had a huge influence on Zoroastrianism during the Islamic conquest period (See: Jenny's work), and in the missionary period of the 19th century. I'm not really sure why would we assume the direction of influence based merely on common features, to be honest. Especially since (at the moment) the only two citations supporting it are from 1) an economist with no background I can see in Zoroastrianism, and 2) an Islamic theologian writing about art - who similarly has no background. In the latter case, the essay doesn't even mention most of the beings that the section claims it does. And I couldn't find anything discussing the claims made based on it. It also seems very gratuitous that such a controversial and unsupported section would be in the lead. When I arrived here, this section wasn't even cited - which doesn't bode well for it being a real theory. So I feel I have strong grounds to treat it as dubious. Especially in light of how it will be read. So I think my proposal will be to remove such sections, until it can be shown there is academic consensus for them - or, failing that, some kind of reliable evidence. If evidence can be provided, I suggest they be moved to a special 'controvercy' section with other such claims. Otherwise the claims should be weighed against conflicting information for neutrality. Either way, I don't think such an unverified claim it should be a core statement in the lead. Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
this part was in the lead for a long time
supported by reliable sources.
Conclusive evidence points to the fact that the iconographic semantics of the medieval Western Asian equestrian dragon-fighter in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions.
Yet there is no evidence that would establish a direct connection, 7 since in none of the cases does the serpent seem to be a noxious beast nor does the rider seem to battle with the serpent. 8 On the contrary, in Mithraism, which became a widespread religion in the Mediterranean basin, Europe and the Near East, the serpent appears to have been “a symbol of beneficial, life-giving force.”- so, yeah, we have an issue here with selective quotation. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
may in large part be due to the influence of Zoroastrian and Iranian dualistic conceptions in which the final triumph of good is implicit on the religions of the Near East from the Achaemenid period to the early centuries of the present era.is cited to Boyce and Grenet, 1991, pp. 361–490; Gnoli, “Dualism,” EIr; Hintze, 1999, pp. 72–9, esp. pp. 75–6. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
The iconographic semantics of the equestrian dragon-fighter – from the greater KhurƗsƗn region to Asia Minor – in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation, thus owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions. These were probably inspired to a large extent by ancient Iranian dualist notions, and specifically eschatological thought systems, which resulted in close parallels between Iranian and Jewish concepts, inherited, in turn, by Christianity and then Islam.
Because of the introductory nature of this bibliography, one goal has been to be as broad as possible in scope. Because similar ideas can arise independently, some of the parallels between ancient Zoroastrianism and Jewish beliefs and practices are surely accidental. However, it is not the intent of this bibliography to provide original research or to identify which similarities are true instances of Persian influence on Jewish practices and doctrines and which are merely instances of two peoples who shared some cultural and religious traits developing in parallel.Simonm223 ( talk) 12:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Reputable tertiary sources, such as introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited.so there's nothing wrong with using a tertiary source like a bibliography, and it doesn't look fringe at all, but it also fails verification for supporting the claim it was cited for. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
According to Mary Boyce, one of the people on Reasearcher1988's list of sources, the Islamic Califate is the reason that the Yazad are sometimes called "angels". She has an entire chapter on this in one of her books. However, the specific page is 157. Wherein she says that: "Thus the religious vocabulary of both shows an admixture of Arabic words, witness to the pervasive influence of Arabic on spoken Persian after two and a half centuries of domination. In both communities, the word 'fereshte' or 'angel' is commonly substituted for 'yazad', the result no doubt of trying to counter Muslim accusations of polytheism." I think this makes it very clear that either 1) this author must be stricken from the page, or 2) we must add this information. Otherwise we are engaging in WP:CHERRYPICKING. 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
As far as I've been able to determine, there is no evidence (or academic consensus) for the idea that Zoroastrianism's ideas resulted in the creation of other religions (such as Islam, etc). The idea seems to be very WP:FRINGE, and most sources I come across say nothing about it. It is also massively controversial, and will be deeply offensive to members of said religions. Especially in light of evidence that those religions likely had a huge influence on Zoroastrianism during the Islamic conquest period (See: Jenny's work), and in the missionary period of the 19th century. I'm not really sure why would we assume the direction of influence based merely on common features, to be honest. Especially since (at the moment) the only two citations supporting it are from 1) an economist with no background I can see in Zoroastrianism, and 2) an Islamic theologian writing about art - who similarly has no background. In the latter case, the essay doesn't even mention most of the beings that the section claims it does. And I couldn't find anything discussing the claims made based on it. It also seems very gratuitous that such a controversial and unsupported section would be in the lead. When I arrived here, this section wasn't even cited - which doesn't bode well for it being a real theory. So I feel I have strong grounds to treat it as dubious. Especially in light of how it will be read. So I think my proposal will be to remove such sections, until it can be shown there is academic consensus for them - or, failing that, some kind of reliable evidence. If evidence can be provided, I suggest they be moved to a special 'controvercy' section with other such claims. Otherwise the claims should be weighed against conflicting information for neutrality. Either way, I don't think such an unverified claim it should be a core statement in the lead. Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
this part was in the lead for a long time
supported by reliable sources.
Conclusive evidence points to the fact that the iconographic semantics of the medieval Western Asian equestrian dragon-fighter in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions.
Yet there is no evidence that would establish a direct connection, 7 since in none of the cases does the serpent seem to be a noxious beast nor does the rider seem to battle with the serpent. 8 On the contrary, in Mithraism, which became a widespread religion in the Mediterranean basin, Europe and the Near East, the serpent appears to have been “a symbol of beneficial, life-giving force.”- so, yeah, we have an issue here with selective quotation. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
may in large part be due to the influence of Zoroastrian and Iranian dualistic conceptions in which the final triumph of good is implicit on the religions of the Near East from the Achaemenid period to the early centuries of the present era.is cited to Boyce and Grenet, 1991, pp. 361–490; Gnoli, “Dualism,” EIr; Hintze, 1999, pp. 72–9, esp. pp. 75–6. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
The iconographic semantics of the equestrian dragon-fighter – from the greater KhurƗsƗn region to Asia Minor – in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation, thus owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions. These were probably inspired to a large extent by ancient Iranian dualist notions, and specifically eschatological thought systems, which resulted in close parallels between Iranian and Jewish concepts, inherited, in turn, by Christianity and then Islam.
Because of the introductory nature of this bibliography, one goal has been to be as broad as possible in scope. Because similar ideas can arise independently, some of the parallels between ancient Zoroastrianism and Jewish beliefs and practices are surely accidental. However, it is not the intent of this bibliography to provide original research or to identify which similarities are true instances of Persian influence on Jewish practices and doctrines and which are merely instances of two peoples who shared some cultural and religious traits developing in parallel.Simonm223 ( talk) 12:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Reputable tertiary sources, such as introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited.so there's nothing wrong with using a tertiary source like a bibliography, and it doesn't look fringe at all, but it also fails verification for supporting the claim it was cited for. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
According to Mary Boyce, one of the people on Reasearcher1988's list of sources, the Islamic Califate is the reason that the Yazad are sometimes called "angels". She has an entire chapter on this in one of her books. However, the specific page is 157. Wherein she says that: "Thus the religious vocabulary of both shows an admixture of Arabic words, witness to the pervasive influence of Arabic on spoken Persian after two and a half centuries of domination. In both communities, the word 'fereshte' or 'angel' is commonly substituted for 'yazad', the result no doubt of trying to counter Muslim accusations of polytheism." I think this makes it very clear that either 1) this author must be stricken from the page, or 2) we must add this information. Otherwise we are engaging in WP:CHERRYPICKING. 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)