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Suggest renaming to Zarathushtra or the Avestan transliteration.
These arguments are not contradictory. The issue of replacing "θ" with the common digraph is quite different from the issue using exonyms as "standard English," or Greek exonyms based on cultural substitution. - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 22:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree with User:Stevertigo. I do not know if the change "Zoroaster --> Zarathustra" can be made with support of any wiki policy, but since there is no controversy here and the original Avestan name is (in view of Greek Zoroaster) better, nicer, more appropriate, I would support that change of title. But I am happy with with Zoroaster too. Xashaiar ( talk) 15:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
OK, lets just get these out of the way, so that Studerby can understand the difference here between a latter-day cultural substitution, and all of his examples which (like with PaulB's examples above: Confucius, Mark Antony, Jesus) are simple translations/transliterations:
Studerby wrote: "The point is that this is Wikipedia policy; the argument for changing the name is not a new argument." - Again, like PaulB above, you appear to have made a number of claims which are entirely refutable, only to fall back on an argument that Wikipedia policy somehow prohibits using actual endonyms, and allows only for the English exonyms —simply because the are "more common." There are thousands of ways in which this is not actually true, for example the Asian convention to use surnames first alone contradicts your view, or the Spanish-Latin use of matrilineal surnames, to say nothing of the countless Germanic, French and Nordic related articles which use special non-English letterforms and diacritics. Do you see my point, Studerby? - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 23:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
altough im not native english speaker so i cant say for sure, but at most places (public, generally less academic) an overwhelming majority seem to use Zarathustra.
as an example, here's a google search on: Zarathustra = 5 450 000 result Zoroaster = 2 480 000 result
I know, it's just a google search, but still interesting i think regarding the discussion above. -- 148.136.141.173 ( talk) 14:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Did Zoroastrianism influence Judaism and Christianity? When was Zoroaster born? Is the time of his birth consistent with him having influenced the Abrahamic faiths? Christians like to claim that the opposite is true -- that the Jews, in fact, influenced Zoroastrianism. So which could it be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.252.56 ( talk) 00:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps neither! 75.73.114.111 ( talk) 01:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Since all 'prophets'-did they claim this?:)- had been assassinated and their true message had been diverted by the rulers of their time for more power to the rulers own mind, most probably what is known about him today is just another edition from the rulers. The question is how many editions achieved about him till now and how it can be possible to get true identity of his message from this very complicated encryption. Just as a point of view, it looks to me it can be something about the nature of phenomena of day and night. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.12.219 ( talk) 05:22, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Avestan was more related to Jasz-Sarmatian-Alanic-Scythian then to modern Iranian. Extend of Eastern Iranian languages dominion was possibly more to the West then the territory of Ukraine. At some period on history Proto-Slavs have been much influenced by Sarmatians . /info/en/?search=Chernyakhov_culture Then the migration of Central European Slavs into the territory of modern Kiev has led to the assimilation of remaining Eastern-Iranics Scytho-Sarmatians and their words into Slavic . Modern Slavic languages have around 40 percent of their ethymology ,related to those Eastern-Iranic languages mentioned above. Baltic languages have emerged earlier then Slavic ,but have linquistic relation. This is why I have been reading the sections about possible Latvian - Slavic with real interest. I can conclude that I have been given the matter of Zoroaster name etymology some attention . This topic is obviously solved. Slavic has existing word Zara (Rus) / Zora (Ukr) simple translation - 'morning dawn'. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8F To be more precise the word describes the reddish glow of the morning there was a Goddess Zorya /info/en/?search=Zorya
Both Slavic and Baltic have words for morning or sunrise as Utro /Austra in Russian morning means Utro in Baltic Austra ( ustra - sunrise ) . It is not the first known case when ancient Indo-Iranic ethymology relation to Slavic: The word Buddha goes almost unchanged in Slavic будить(BUDIT) - wake, wake up, awaken, awake, rouse, arouse and Lithuanian išbudinti - wake, awake, awaken (iš is a prefix here not the root ,which is budinti). One more obvious thing to point out is that Aster-means star in Greek . It is related to Germanic, for example Swedish - Stjerna etc . It is a good example that ancient Indo-Iranic is better understood with the use of related IE languages, like Slavic , Baltic, Greek then with the use of loan words from Semitic and later Turkic . Edelward ( talk) 05:36, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
"His English name, "Zoroaster", and the derivatives from a later (5th century BC) Greek transcription, Zōroastrēs (Ζωροάστρης),[2] as used in Xanthus'sLydiaca (Fragment 32) and in Plato's First Alcibiades (122a1)."
I'm not a native english speaker, so I may be wrong, but to my eyes this sentence from the Zoroaster article is not complete. To me it is incomprehensible. Could anyone please clarify this? Kind regards, Bertux ( talk) 21:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
I must confess that I'm fairly uninformed bout these things, but I understand fairly clearly that Christianity, and hence Islam, are fundamentally based upon two older religions, first Judaism, and second Zorastrianism. Shouldn't the details of this heritage be laid out more clearly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.122.120.238 ( talk) 21:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Ridiculous, utterly ridiculous. Neither Buddha nor Zarathustra preached heresies of Hinduism. That is an entirely idiotic statement.
The section changed was done because it's false. Page 405 of the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy does NOT say what was claimed. In fact, at only 408 pages long, page 405 is at the very end of the book and states nothing about Zoroaster or Heraclitus, at all, in any way. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
108.25.131.219 (
talk)
13:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
A new editor keeps changing the year of Zoroaster's birth to 5000BC. I'm aware that around 500BC would be a reasonable enough assertion, but 5000BC isn't remotely credible. PhilKnight ( talk) 18:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
constant disruptive editing by somebody with a nationalist agenda stating that zoroaster was persian which is completely incorrect as zoroaster did not live anywhere near fars/pars at the time and the fact that persians had not settled out of pars/fars during the period in which zoroaster lived
User Pahlavan Qahramani is linking him to persians https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Zoroaster&type=revision&diff=662959262&oldid=662958922
When in reality persians did not even exist outside of fars/pars, avesta does not even mention persians, medes or even parthians. Zoroaster was definitely an iranic but a persian he was not.
It seems he's still reverting.
Comment: I have fully protected the article for 24 hours in the hopes that none of you wind up getting blocked for edit warring. See if you can use that 24 hours to work something out. -- MelanieN ( talk) 01:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Both of us are willing to discuss, pahlavan qahremani is not however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Only Avestan, Greek and Persian names have common usage in English sources, referenced texts, and they are relevant to this article. This is not a dictionary to represent and spell his name in other languages, such edits are suitable for Wiktionary ( Zoroaster at Wiktionary). Avoid edits like these diff1, diff2, diff3. If you want to add his name in other languages, it needs to be discussed on talk page, and you should provide your rationale. Regards. -- Zyma ( talk) 14:47, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
There needs to be a section on his influence on the development of Judea-Christian religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:882:100:D7B0:EDA7:6F88:406F:D32C ( talk) 17:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I mentioned this on another article, but I'll mention it here, too, as I've encountered the same problem. Where can I find True Type files that will render Avestan script properly? I download a group of fonts from St. Catherine's, but those have not helped.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:15, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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In the life section it says 'He opposed the use of the hallucinogenic Haoma...'. Yet on the Haoma article it says it is used in Zoroastrian rituals. Is this a contradiction, if not why not? Jonpatterns ( talk) 12:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
In fact, in this age of developed understanding of Indo European poetry and riddles and thoughts, we need to really introspect ourselves whether we should purposely deny the Rigvedic metaphors. The Rigvedic soma except in some of stanzas of ninth mandala could be equally symbolised, and a tenth mandala verse does talk explicitly about soma symbolism. It should be that soma cult was a BMAC product in late Rigvedic / Iranian culture, an intrusion which the spiritual bards did not want to accept. Similar kind of aversion is seen to horse sacrifice in Rigveda, where unlike common (mis)interpretations, the poet actually uses pun words till the end that mock the ritual and concludes it by explicitly stating that horse does not die and has easier paths left to travel. Moreover, the horse is yoked to the pole with his old companions. (RV 1.162 last lines) The poet also ends the poem with a very sarcastic prayer that let the infinite forgive the sins. The subsequent poem symbolises the horse and equates it to sun (RV 1.163). The reason why I told is that both Rigvedic and Avestan periods had much tribes and clashes among them. The poets and wise preferred spirituality (in RV 7.103, the Brahmins who mutter without knowing things are mocked as frogs and heavy satire like the Ashvamedha RV 1.162 is written) over ritualism, the commons still interpreted the words in such a way that they could continue with the ritual religion. (This is seen in Avestans and later Vedic India, where Brahmanic school of (mis)interpretation started) Kiron Krishnan ( talk) 17:31, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
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Zoroaster - Is displayed in the Painitng of Raphael Sanzio 1509-1511 - Plato knows his work - He does a lot in Astrology - Astrology is earlyest 3000 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology So if we all agree that this statement is true, we can delete the spam comment 70.73.62.215 (talk) 03:22, 14 October 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_Of_Athens
He is obviously connected with the Achaemenid dynasty, as he is called the persian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_dynasty
Zoroaster was Central Asian Aryan. Zar gold in Avestan, Ustra Camel in Avestan, Zar yellow in Rigvedic Sanskrit Ustra Camel in Rigvedic Sanskrit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.101.228 ( talk) 18:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
The town flourished and attained prominence and political repute with the rise of the first Babylonian dynasty. It was the "holy city" of Babylonia by approximately 2300 BC, and the seat of the Neo-Babylonian Empire from 612 BC. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon were one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.
Under Cyrus and the subsequent Persian king Darius the Great, Babylon became the capital city of the 9th Satrapy (Babylonia in the south and Athura in the north), as well as a centre of learning and scientific advancement. In Achaemenid Persia, the ancient Babylonian arts of astronomy and mathematics were revitalised and flourished, and Babylonian scholars completed maps of constellations. The city was the administrative capital of the Persian Empire, the preeminent power of the then known world, and it played a vital part in the history of that region for over two centuries. Many important archaeological discoveries have been made that can provide a better understanding of that era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
From this Article The second, and "more serious"[24] factor for the association with astrology was the notion that Zoroaster was a Babyloniann. The alternate Greek name for Zoroaster was Zaratas/Zaradas/Zaratos (cf. Agathias 2.23-5, Clement Stromata I.15), which—so Cumont and Bidez—derived from a Semitic form of his name. The Pythagorean tradition considered the mathematician to have studied with Zoroaster in Babylonia (Porphyry Life of Pythagoras 12, Alexander Polyhistor apud Clement's Stromata I.15, Diodorus of Eritrea, Aristoxenus apud Hippolitus VI32.2). Lydus (On the Months II.4) attributes the creation of the seven-day week to "the Babylonians in the circle of Zoroaster and Hystaspes," and who did so because there were seven planets. The Suda's chapter on astronomia notes that the Babylonians learned their astrology from Zoroaster. Lucian of Samosata (Mennipus 6) decides to journey to Babylon "to ask one of the magi, Zoroaster's disciples and successors," for their opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster
While the theorem that now bears his name was known and previously utilized by the Babylonians and Indians, he, or his students, are often said to have constructed the first proof. It must, however, be stressed that the way in which the Babylonians handled Pythagorean numbers, implies that they knew that the principle was generally applicable, and knew some kind of proof, which has not yet been found in the (still largely unpublished) cuneiform sources.[5] Because of the secretive nature of his school and the custom of its students to attribute everything to their teacher, there is no evidence that Pythagoras himself worked on or proved this theorem. For that matter, there is no evidence that he worked on any mathematical or meta-mathematical problems. Some attribute it as a carefully constructed myth by followers of Plato over two centuries after the death of Pythagoras, mainly to bolster the case for Platonic meta-physics, which resonate well with the ideas they attributed to Pythagoras. This attribution has stuck, down the centuries up to modern times.[6] The earliest known mention of Pythagoras's name in connection with the theorem occurred five centuries after his death, in the writings of Cicero and Plutarch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras
So Zoroaster & Pythagoras Connection ... so this guy is possible older than P, maybe 50 years.
Who was the first monotheist? Abraham,Zoroaster or Akhenaton?
There is a section of debate that "Jarutha" in Rigveda 7th Mandala being a rival of VasishTha, does represent the "JaruthoSTra" or Zarathustra. In such a case, even if the name comes to be Zarota, there is no need to look for a Semitic derivation - the name still remains clearly Indo European. Kiron Krishnan ( talk) 17:38, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
he is dated by scholars as a contemporary or near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great
in the lead appears to contradict
Scholars generally place Zarathushtra as having lived in north-east Iran or northern Afghanistan some time between 1700 and 1300 BC
in the body. Can someone verify what the sources say? If they both say what our article attributes to them, one must be either outdated or wrong. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 22:23, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes the statement "Zoroaster's teaching about individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, resurrection of the body, Last Judgment, and everlasting life for the reunited soul and body, among others became borrowings in the Abrahamic religions ..." has a source, but nonetheless it is widely discredited. The quoted statement standing by itself as fact lessens the value of the article. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 18:51, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
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So, what do the sources say on the dating of Zoroaster?
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
There must be better sources than the BBC, right? But 2nd millennium BCE, or "ca. 1500-500" BCE seems better than 1200-900 BCE. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 21:19, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Originally, the article noted "Zoroastrianism was already an old religion when first recorded." It was changed to "Zoroastrianism was already well-established when first recorded." The term "well-established" may mean that it had a significant number of followers, while "old" just means that it was established a considerable time before. I think it is better to say it was an old religion and not that it was well-established before adoption by the Achaemenids. Newaccount31 ( talk) 01:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
This appeared to me to be a bad edit but I am not familiar with Zoroaster. Nbhard and Uanfala were both involved as well. Is there any part of the edit that should be restored? Is this POV pushing and OR as it seems? —DIYeditor ( talk) 06:29, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
I was looking to this video, where the specialist Jason Reza Jorjani connects Zoroaster with Sarastro, the high priest of Mozart's The Magic Flute. Anyone else knows more about this? – JoseEduardoTR ( talk) 23:59, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry about bad english.Its time to confess its a myth.There is no trustworthy sources that person like this exist.Its a product of Free Masonry myth and philosophy.It should be a old god but thats all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:83B4:A662:1040:3A17:C50E:D21F ( talk) 19:32, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
The article repeatedly uses the term "Eastern Iran" when it's really trying to say "Eastern Greater Iran", the areas that are now Afghanistan, Pakistani Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa as well as southern Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, and all of Tajikistan. This to a non-academic makes it sound like the area being discussed when the the term "Iran" is being used is the modern Islamic Republic of Iran. Even "Western Iran" is a misnomer because you are leaving out Turkish, Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistans and the Republic of Azerbaijan. Can we please use "Greater Iran", which is a more politically neutral and historically and geographically accurate, than Iran all throughout? 168.150.42.52 ( talk) 17:09, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Besides the fact that this completely wrong and no historian ever suggested something like that the link which states he was born in Kashmir is from a Hindu nationalistic site. It should be reverted/removed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerxes931 ( talk • contribs) 18:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I have a copy of West's book, and words like "Last Judgment" and other terms do not show up. This is a bit of original research with a fake author attached. 2600:1003:B0AD:8894:5CF4:7B45:55D8:705E ( talk) 17:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Zoroaster is fundamentally a humanist. What does "good deeds" mean to you?
Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds are central to Zoroastrianism.
Zoroaster was a humanist. He is parallel/analogous to the Buddha. The Buddha is a: secular philosopher, mystic, mythical- and/or semi-mythical- figure, religious figure; etc., et al., etc., etc. Addendum: Avestan even overlaps with Sanskrit.
Tautology (logic): Consider if the practice of "good thoughts" are a form of logic.
Best Wishes,
184.22.248.42 ( talk) 03:34, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
In the Wikipedia page about Moses, there is a section where they say that according to modern scholarly consensus, he probably doesn't exist. There should be one here too. In my opinion, Zoraster probably is a mythical figure. I mean, how could he exist during both 6000BC and also during 1500 BC? Makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.149.60.76 ( talk) 11:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
"Semi-mythical" is a valid term and phenomenon.
Best Wishes,
184.22.248.42 ( talk) 03:23, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Historicity is important, but we need to give a higher priority to the topic of Zoroaster's ethics.
The words matter more than the man. Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.
Best Wishes,
184.22.248.42 ( talk) 04:00, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
I agree with the other responders, but the scholarship on Zarathustra’s historicity sheds a lot of light on the origins of the religion in general, so I think it’d be fitting to have such a section here. Bagabondo ( talk) 21:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
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Some passages in the Influences section are, I think, inappropriate on this article. Some of the material in there doesn't refer to Zoroaster's personal influence, but rather to the influence of Zoroastrism, and hence a relevant subject in that entry and not in this one. For instance, "The Sabaeans, who believed in free will coincident with Zoroastrians, are also mentioned in the Quran.[64]" doesn't appear relevant Severian79 ( talk) 20:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Wario-Man and HistoryofIran: I have removed the violations of WP:RGW and WP:SYNTH done by Manzarene, who is currently blocked for socking, on these edits. Recent edits by other editors like [8] [9] [10] also show that the claims he made on the article are not exactly supported by the sources or the information is too WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I just thought of notifying you both since you are actively watching this article. Zakaria1978 ( talk) 03:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
"Most scholars date him in the 7th and 6th century BC as a near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great and Darius I". There is no need to provide misleading dating on infobox. Zakaria1978 ( talk) 04:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
"At present, the majority opinion among scholars probably inclines toward the end of the second millennium or the beginning of the first, although there are still those who hold for a date in the seventh century".
"For a time, scholars supported such a sixth- or seventh-century B.C.E. dating... But earlier dates have also been proposed, and a new consensus seems now to support the (also speculative) date of 1080-1500 B.C.E."
"The dates of c. 1500-1000 BCE are commonly accepted for the time in which he lived, taught, and founded his religion based on a long tradition of scholarly work on the timeline of the Early Iranian Religion, evidence of the acceptance of Zoroastrianism, and references in the Avesta."
"Scholars still disagree as to when Zoroaster lived, either in the late second millennium BCE... or centuries later in the sixth century BCE"; their timeline on p. 86 speculatively dates him to the 13th c. BC
"That the date of Zoroaster was somewhere between 1000 and 900 B.C., or perhaps even earlier, was formerly the opinion of most Western scholars, including [10 names listed]. The support given to the date of "258 years before Alexander" in recent decades is largely due to the powerful advocacy of [3 names listed]; but the authenticity of this date has latterly been strongly challenged again"; Boyce is likewise quoted on this very page as personally dating him between 1700-1000 BC.
"As to when he lived, scholars are divided between those who put him in the seventh or sixth century BCE and those who uphold a much higher dating, around 1000 BCE or even earlier."
"some put him in the 7th and 6th century BCE as a contemporary or near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great and Darius I, while others on linguistic and socio-cultural evidence around 1000 BCE and earlier.[4][5][6][7]"
Posted on the Facebook group "The Magic of Persia" c/o https://www.facebook.com/groups/290303672159850/ on August 1, 2021. Post reads as follows:
"Persians became a by-word of judicial incorruptibility and harshness, throughout the subject lands. It was the Zoroastrians who gave the world legal principles enshrined in the law of evidence and procedure. Legal concepts like arbitration, representation by a lawyer, release on bail, power of attorney and execution of wills are of Persian origin, later picked up by the Greeks and Romans.
"In recognition of Zoroastrian contribution to the development of law, a statue of Zoroaster stands in the Court of the Appellate Division in New York, near Madison Square and 23rd Street.
"Another statue of the Persian prophet Zoroaster/Zarathustra stands on the main entrance of the Rockefeller Chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago, made by the American sculptor Lee Lawrie (1877 - 1963)"
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Suggest renaming to Zarathushtra or the Avestan transliteration.
These arguments are not contradictory. The issue of replacing "θ" with the common digraph is quite different from the issue using exonyms as "standard English," or Greek exonyms based on cultural substitution. - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 22:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree with User:Stevertigo. I do not know if the change "Zoroaster --> Zarathustra" can be made with support of any wiki policy, but since there is no controversy here and the original Avestan name is (in view of Greek Zoroaster) better, nicer, more appropriate, I would support that change of title. But I am happy with with Zoroaster too. Xashaiar ( talk) 15:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
OK, lets just get these out of the way, so that Studerby can understand the difference here between a latter-day cultural substitution, and all of his examples which (like with PaulB's examples above: Confucius, Mark Antony, Jesus) are simple translations/transliterations:
Studerby wrote: "The point is that this is Wikipedia policy; the argument for changing the name is not a new argument." - Again, like PaulB above, you appear to have made a number of claims which are entirely refutable, only to fall back on an argument that Wikipedia policy somehow prohibits using actual endonyms, and allows only for the English exonyms —simply because the are "more common." There are thousands of ways in which this is not actually true, for example the Asian convention to use surnames first alone contradicts your view, or the Spanish-Latin use of matrilineal surnames, to say nothing of the countless Germanic, French and Nordic related articles which use special non-English letterforms and diacritics. Do you see my point, Studerby? - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 23:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
altough im not native english speaker so i cant say for sure, but at most places (public, generally less academic) an overwhelming majority seem to use Zarathustra.
as an example, here's a google search on: Zarathustra = 5 450 000 result Zoroaster = 2 480 000 result
I know, it's just a google search, but still interesting i think regarding the discussion above. -- 148.136.141.173 ( talk) 14:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Did Zoroastrianism influence Judaism and Christianity? When was Zoroaster born? Is the time of his birth consistent with him having influenced the Abrahamic faiths? Christians like to claim that the opposite is true -- that the Jews, in fact, influenced Zoroastrianism. So which could it be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.252.56 ( talk) 00:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps neither! 75.73.114.111 ( talk) 01:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Since all 'prophets'-did they claim this?:)- had been assassinated and their true message had been diverted by the rulers of their time for more power to the rulers own mind, most probably what is known about him today is just another edition from the rulers. The question is how many editions achieved about him till now and how it can be possible to get true identity of his message from this very complicated encryption. Just as a point of view, it looks to me it can be something about the nature of phenomena of day and night. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.12.219 ( talk) 05:22, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Avestan was more related to Jasz-Sarmatian-Alanic-Scythian then to modern Iranian. Extend of Eastern Iranian languages dominion was possibly more to the West then the territory of Ukraine. At some period on history Proto-Slavs have been much influenced by Sarmatians . /info/en/?search=Chernyakhov_culture Then the migration of Central European Slavs into the territory of modern Kiev has led to the assimilation of remaining Eastern-Iranics Scytho-Sarmatians and their words into Slavic . Modern Slavic languages have around 40 percent of their ethymology ,related to those Eastern-Iranic languages mentioned above. Baltic languages have emerged earlier then Slavic ,but have linquistic relation. This is why I have been reading the sections about possible Latvian - Slavic with real interest. I can conclude that I have been given the matter of Zoroaster name etymology some attention . This topic is obviously solved. Slavic has existing word Zara (Rus) / Zora (Ukr) simple translation - 'morning dawn'. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8F To be more precise the word describes the reddish glow of the morning there was a Goddess Zorya /info/en/?search=Zorya
Both Slavic and Baltic have words for morning or sunrise as Utro /Austra in Russian morning means Utro in Baltic Austra ( ustra - sunrise ) . It is not the first known case when ancient Indo-Iranic ethymology relation to Slavic: The word Buddha goes almost unchanged in Slavic будить(BUDIT) - wake, wake up, awaken, awake, rouse, arouse and Lithuanian išbudinti - wake, awake, awaken (iš is a prefix here not the root ,which is budinti). One more obvious thing to point out is that Aster-means star in Greek . It is related to Germanic, for example Swedish - Stjerna etc . It is a good example that ancient Indo-Iranic is better understood with the use of related IE languages, like Slavic , Baltic, Greek then with the use of loan words from Semitic and later Turkic . Edelward ( talk) 05:36, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
"His English name, "Zoroaster", and the derivatives from a later (5th century BC) Greek transcription, Zōroastrēs (Ζωροάστρης),[2] as used in Xanthus'sLydiaca (Fragment 32) and in Plato's First Alcibiades (122a1)."
I'm not a native english speaker, so I may be wrong, but to my eyes this sentence from the Zoroaster article is not complete. To me it is incomprehensible. Could anyone please clarify this? Kind regards, Bertux ( talk) 21:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
I must confess that I'm fairly uninformed bout these things, but I understand fairly clearly that Christianity, and hence Islam, are fundamentally based upon two older religions, first Judaism, and second Zorastrianism. Shouldn't the details of this heritage be laid out more clearly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.122.120.238 ( talk) 21:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Ridiculous, utterly ridiculous. Neither Buddha nor Zarathustra preached heresies of Hinduism. That is an entirely idiotic statement.
The section changed was done because it's false. Page 405 of the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy does NOT say what was claimed. In fact, at only 408 pages long, page 405 is at the very end of the book and states nothing about Zoroaster or Heraclitus, at all, in any way. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
108.25.131.219 (
talk)
13:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
A new editor keeps changing the year of Zoroaster's birth to 5000BC. I'm aware that around 500BC would be a reasonable enough assertion, but 5000BC isn't remotely credible. PhilKnight ( talk) 18:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
constant disruptive editing by somebody with a nationalist agenda stating that zoroaster was persian which is completely incorrect as zoroaster did not live anywhere near fars/pars at the time and the fact that persians had not settled out of pars/fars during the period in which zoroaster lived
User Pahlavan Qahramani is linking him to persians https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Zoroaster&type=revision&diff=662959262&oldid=662958922
When in reality persians did not even exist outside of fars/pars, avesta does not even mention persians, medes or even parthians. Zoroaster was definitely an iranic but a persian he was not.
It seems he's still reverting.
Comment: I have fully protected the article for 24 hours in the hopes that none of you wind up getting blocked for edit warring. See if you can use that 24 hours to work something out. -- MelanieN ( talk) 01:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Both of us are willing to discuss, pahlavan qahremani is not however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Only Avestan, Greek and Persian names have common usage in English sources, referenced texts, and they are relevant to this article. This is not a dictionary to represent and spell his name in other languages, such edits are suitable for Wiktionary ( Zoroaster at Wiktionary). Avoid edits like these diff1, diff2, diff3. If you want to add his name in other languages, it needs to be discussed on talk page, and you should provide your rationale. Regards. -- Zyma ( talk) 14:47, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
There needs to be a section on his influence on the development of Judea-Christian religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:882:100:D7B0:EDA7:6F88:406F:D32C ( talk) 17:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I mentioned this on another article, but I'll mention it here, too, as I've encountered the same problem. Where can I find True Type files that will render Avestan script properly? I download a group of fonts from St. Catherine's, but those have not helped.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:15, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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In the life section it says 'He opposed the use of the hallucinogenic Haoma...'. Yet on the Haoma article it says it is used in Zoroastrian rituals. Is this a contradiction, if not why not? Jonpatterns ( talk) 12:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
In fact, in this age of developed understanding of Indo European poetry and riddles and thoughts, we need to really introspect ourselves whether we should purposely deny the Rigvedic metaphors. The Rigvedic soma except in some of stanzas of ninth mandala could be equally symbolised, and a tenth mandala verse does talk explicitly about soma symbolism. It should be that soma cult was a BMAC product in late Rigvedic / Iranian culture, an intrusion which the spiritual bards did not want to accept. Similar kind of aversion is seen to horse sacrifice in Rigveda, where unlike common (mis)interpretations, the poet actually uses pun words till the end that mock the ritual and concludes it by explicitly stating that horse does not die and has easier paths left to travel. Moreover, the horse is yoked to the pole with his old companions. (RV 1.162 last lines) The poet also ends the poem with a very sarcastic prayer that let the infinite forgive the sins. The subsequent poem symbolises the horse and equates it to sun (RV 1.163). The reason why I told is that both Rigvedic and Avestan periods had much tribes and clashes among them. The poets and wise preferred spirituality (in RV 7.103, the Brahmins who mutter without knowing things are mocked as frogs and heavy satire like the Ashvamedha RV 1.162 is written) over ritualism, the commons still interpreted the words in such a way that they could continue with the ritual religion. (This is seen in Avestans and later Vedic India, where Brahmanic school of (mis)interpretation started) Kiron Krishnan ( talk) 17:31, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
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Zoroaster - Is displayed in the Painitng of Raphael Sanzio 1509-1511 - Plato knows his work - He does a lot in Astrology - Astrology is earlyest 3000 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology So if we all agree that this statement is true, we can delete the spam comment 70.73.62.215 (talk) 03:22, 14 October 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_Of_Athens
He is obviously connected with the Achaemenid dynasty, as he is called the persian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_dynasty
Zoroaster was Central Asian Aryan. Zar gold in Avestan, Ustra Camel in Avestan, Zar yellow in Rigvedic Sanskrit Ustra Camel in Rigvedic Sanskrit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.101.228 ( talk) 18:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
The town flourished and attained prominence and political repute with the rise of the first Babylonian dynasty. It was the "holy city" of Babylonia by approximately 2300 BC, and the seat of the Neo-Babylonian Empire from 612 BC. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon were one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.
Under Cyrus and the subsequent Persian king Darius the Great, Babylon became the capital city of the 9th Satrapy (Babylonia in the south and Athura in the north), as well as a centre of learning and scientific advancement. In Achaemenid Persia, the ancient Babylonian arts of astronomy and mathematics were revitalised and flourished, and Babylonian scholars completed maps of constellations. The city was the administrative capital of the Persian Empire, the preeminent power of the then known world, and it played a vital part in the history of that region for over two centuries. Many important archaeological discoveries have been made that can provide a better understanding of that era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
From this Article The second, and "more serious"[24] factor for the association with astrology was the notion that Zoroaster was a Babyloniann. The alternate Greek name for Zoroaster was Zaratas/Zaradas/Zaratos (cf. Agathias 2.23-5, Clement Stromata I.15), which—so Cumont and Bidez—derived from a Semitic form of his name. The Pythagorean tradition considered the mathematician to have studied with Zoroaster in Babylonia (Porphyry Life of Pythagoras 12, Alexander Polyhistor apud Clement's Stromata I.15, Diodorus of Eritrea, Aristoxenus apud Hippolitus VI32.2). Lydus (On the Months II.4) attributes the creation of the seven-day week to "the Babylonians in the circle of Zoroaster and Hystaspes," and who did so because there were seven planets. The Suda's chapter on astronomia notes that the Babylonians learned their astrology from Zoroaster. Lucian of Samosata (Mennipus 6) decides to journey to Babylon "to ask one of the magi, Zoroaster's disciples and successors," for their opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster
While the theorem that now bears his name was known and previously utilized by the Babylonians and Indians, he, or his students, are often said to have constructed the first proof. It must, however, be stressed that the way in which the Babylonians handled Pythagorean numbers, implies that they knew that the principle was generally applicable, and knew some kind of proof, which has not yet been found in the (still largely unpublished) cuneiform sources.[5] Because of the secretive nature of his school and the custom of its students to attribute everything to their teacher, there is no evidence that Pythagoras himself worked on or proved this theorem. For that matter, there is no evidence that he worked on any mathematical or meta-mathematical problems. Some attribute it as a carefully constructed myth by followers of Plato over two centuries after the death of Pythagoras, mainly to bolster the case for Platonic meta-physics, which resonate well with the ideas they attributed to Pythagoras. This attribution has stuck, down the centuries up to modern times.[6] The earliest known mention of Pythagoras's name in connection with the theorem occurred five centuries after his death, in the writings of Cicero and Plutarch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras
So Zoroaster & Pythagoras Connection ... so this guy is possible older than P, maybe 50 years.
Who was the first monotheist? Abraham,Zoroaster or Akhenaton?
There is a section of debate that "Jarutha" in Rigveda 7th Mandala being a rival of VasishTha, does represent the "JaruthoSTra" or Zarathustra. In such a case, even if the name comes to be Zarota, there is no need to look for a Semitic derivation - the name still remains clearly Indo European. Kiron Krishnan ( talk) 17:38, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
he is dated by scholars as a contemporary or near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great
in the lead appears to contradict
Scholars generally place Zarathushtra as having lived in north-east Iran or northern Afghanistan some time between 1700 and 1300 BC
in the body. Can someone verify what the sources say? If they both say what our article attributes to them, one must be either outdated or wrong. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 22:23, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes the statement "Zoroaster's teaching about individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, resurrection of the body, Last Judgment, and everlasting life for the reunited soul and body, among others became borrowings in the Abrahamic religions ..." has a source, but nonetheless it is widely discredited. The quoted statement standing by itself as fact lessens the value of the article. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 18:51, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
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So, what do the sources say on the dating of Zoroaster?
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
There must be better sources than the BBC, right? But 2nd millennium BCE, or "ca. 1500-500" BCE seems better than 1200-900 BCE. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 21:19, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Originally, the article noted "Zoroastrianism was already an old religion when first recorded." It was changed to "Zoroastrianism was already well-established when first recorded." The term "well-established" may mean that it had a significant number of followers, while "old" just means that it was established a considerable time before. I think it is better to say it was an old religion and not that it was well-established before adoption by the Achaemenids. Newaccount31 ( talk) 01:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
This appeared to me to be a bad edit but I am not familiar with Zoroaster. Nbhard and Uanfala were both involved as well. Is there any part of the edit that should be restored? Is this POV pushing and OR as it seems? —DIYeditor ( talk) 06:29, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
I was looking to this video, where the specialist Jason Reza Jorjani connects Zoroaster with Sarastro, the high priest of Mozart's The Magic Flute. Anyone else knows more about this? – JoseEduardoTR ( talk) 23:59, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry about bad english.Its time to confess its a myth.There is no trustworthy sources that person like this exist.Its a product of Free Masonry myth and philosophy.It should be a old god but thats all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:83B4:A662:1040:3A17:C50E:D21F ( talk) 19:32, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
The article repeatedly uses the term "Eastern Iran" when it's really trying to say "Eastern Greater Iran", the areas that are now Afghanistan, Pakistani Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa as well as southern Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, and all of Tajikistan. This to a non-academic makes it sound like the area being discussed when the the term "Iran" is being used is the modern Islamic Republic of Iran. Even "Western Iran" is a misnomer because you are leaving out Turkish, Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistans and the Republic of Azerbaijan. Can we please use "Greater Iran", which is a more politically neutral and historically and geographically accurate, than Iran all throughout? 168.150.42.52 ( talk) 17:09, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Besides the fact that this completely wrong and no historian ever suggested something like that the link which states he was born in Kashmir is from a Hindu nationalistic site. It should be reverted/removed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerxes931 ( talk • contribs) 18:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I have a copy of West's book, and words like "Last Judgment" and other terms do not show up. This is a bit of original research with a fake author attached. 2600:1003:B0AD:8894:5CF4:7B45:55D8:705E ( talk) 17:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Zoroaster is fundamentally a humanist. What does "good deeds" mean to you?
Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds are central to Zoroastrianism.
Zoroaster was a humanist. He is parallel/analogous to the Buddha. The Buddha is a: secular philosopher, mystic, mythical- and/or semi-mythical- figure, religious figure; etc., et al., etc., etc. Addendum: Avestan even overlaps with Sanskrit.
Tautology (logic): Consider if the practice of "good thoughts" are a form of logic.
Best Wishes,
184.22.248.42 ( talk) 03:34, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
In the Wikipedia page about Moses, there is a section where they say that according to modern scholarly consensus, he probably doesn't exist. There should be one here too. In my opinion, Zoraster probably is a mythical figure. I mean, how could he exist during both 6000BC and also during 1500 BC? Makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.149.60.76 ( talk) 11:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
"Semi-mythical" is a valid term and phenomenon.
Best Wishes,
184.22.248.42 ( talk) 03:23, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Historicity is important, but we need to give a higher priority to the topic of Zoroaster's ethics.
The words matter more than the man. Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.
Best Wishes,
184.22.248.42 ( talk) 04:00, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
I agree with the other responders, but the scholarship on Zarathustra’s historicity sheds a lot of light on the origins of the religion in general, so I think it’d be fitting to have such a section here. Bagabondo ( talk) 21:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
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Some passages in the Influences section are, I think, inappropriate on this article. Some of the material in there doesn't refer to Zoroaster's personal influence, but rather to the influence of Zoroastrism, and hence a relevant subject in that entry and not in this one. For instance, "The Sabaeans, who believed in free will coincident with Zoroastrians, are also mentioned in the Quran.[64]" doesn't appear relevant Severian79 ( talk) 20:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Wario-Man and HistoryofIran: I have removed the violations of WP:RGW and WP:SYNTH done by Manzarene, who is currently blocked for socking, on these edits. Recent edits by other editors like [8] [9] [10] also show that the claims he made on the article are not exactly supported by the sources or the information is too WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I just thought of notifying you both since you are actively watching this article. Zakaria1978 ( talk) 03:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
"Most scholars date him in the 7th and 6th century BC as a near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great and Darius I". There is no need to provide misleading dating on infobox. Zakaria1978 ( talk) 04:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
"At present, the majority opinion among scholars probably inclines toward the end of the second millennium or the beginning of the first, although there are still those who hold for a date in the seventh century".
"For a time, scholars supported such a sixth- or seventh-century B.C.E. dating... But earlier dates have also been proposed, and a new consensus seems now to support the (also speculative) date of 1080-1500 B.C.E."
"The dates of c. 1500-1000 BCE are commonly accepted for the time in which he lived, taught, and founded his religion based on a long tradition of scholarly work on the timeline of the Early Iranian Religion, evidence of the acceptance of Zoroastrianism, and references in the Avesta."
"Scholars still disagree as to when Zoroaster lived, either in the late second millennium BCE... or centuries later in the sixth century BCE"; their timeline on p. 86 speculatively dates him to the 13th c. BC
"That the date of Zoroaster was somewhere between 1000 and 900 B.C., or perhaps even earlier, was formerly the opinion of most Western scholars, including [10 names listed]. The support given to the date of "258 years before Alexander" in recent decades is largely due to the powerful advocacy of [3 names listed]; but the authenticity of this date has latterly been strongly challenged again"; Boyce is likewise quoted on this very page as personally dating him between 1700-1000 BC.
"As to when he lived, scholars are divided between those who put him in the seventh or sixth century BCE and those who uphold a much higher dating, around 1000 BCE or even earlier."
"some put him in the 7th and 6th century BCE as a contemporary or near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great and Darius I, while others on linguistic and socio-cultural evidence around 1000 BCE and earlier.[4][5][6][7]"
Posted on the Facebook group "The Magic of Persia" c/o https://www.facebook.com/groups/290303672159850/ on August 1, 2021. Post reads as follows:
"Persians became a by-word of judicial incorruptibility and harshness, throughout the subject lands. It was the Zoroastrians who gave the world legal principles enshrined in the law of evidence and procedure. Legal concepts like arbitration, representation by a lawyer, release on bail, power of attorney and execution of wills are of Persian origin, later picked up by the Greeks and Romans.
"In recognition of Zoroastrian contribution to the development of law, a statue of Zoroaster stands in the Court of the Appellate Division in New York, near Madison Square and 23rd Street.
"Another statue of the Persian prophet Zoroaster/Zarathustra stands on the main entrance of the Rockefeller Chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago, made by the American sculptor Lee Lawrie (1877 - 1963)"