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Including quotes by famous people that say there is a connection between the two is acceptable and necessary for this page for the purpose of NPOV, especially since we have a part describing the comparision between zionism and racism. At a bare minimum, say that many people take on the view that there is a connection. Specificly the following needs to be in the article
Fully sourced as of 07:20, 10 December 2006 your addition was made at 05:28, 10 December 2006. When you made your addition there was not one mention of antisemitism. ( → Netscott) 07:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Just an aside, but I think that quote, though widely attributed to Dr. King, is really by someone else. I think that came up here a few months ago. Leaving aside anything else, it would probably be good to track down the source before using it again. Tom Harrison Talk 14:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If the King quote is validly sourced, and if there is consensus that it be used, then WP:NPOV would require that that accurately sourced quotes of similarly notable figures who actively oppose the notion that anti-Zionism equates with anti-Semitism be included in the article as well. Personally, it's hard for me to see how Dr. King is qualified to be quoted about Zionism while Noam Chomsky is not. BYT 16:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to insert numerous citations so that this article would be balanced. As it is, even the "anti-zionism" section sounds pro-zionism. Granted, some of my sentences may not have been totally NPOV, but the facts and the citations are, and I am willing to modify the sentences that link to the articles in BBC, etc.
I think "The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist" MUST BE cited or REMOVED
This article mentions almost nothing about the practices of zionists to segregate by race and the people who oppose zionist policies.
There is a citation I will get for Olmert saying that he wants to change the meaning of zionism and it looks like that should be mentioned and linked, because if zionism has been changed then we should tell people about it.
(PRIOR Notes) When 80% of the population opposes a zionist leader like Olmert, what must one assume? That his zionist policies are not supported.
This needs to be added, or the article is not NPOV. You can change the wording if you don't like "one must assume", but the content must remain. I challenge the NPOV of this article without it.
Anti-Zionism should also be distinguished from Anti-Semetism in that one can be Anti-Zionist (against the separation of people by race or religion), without being Anti-Semetic (simply hating all Jewish people). As Israeli President Olmert's approval rating among his own citizens fell to 20% due to his strict Zionist policies toward separating all Jews in Palestine and Israel from all Palestinians, it is clear that the majority of Israel's citizens are not Zionist. [1]
Please refer to management for a decision. Pco 19:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Once the state was created, zionism became a political tool for stealing land and oppressing non-jews. This is a fact that is further supported in the Chomsky dialogue that you already have on this page. Pco 19:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
(this sentence above and the link should probably replace the one that cites no source at: TERMINOLOGY - The term Zionism is also sometimes used retroactively to describe the millennia-old Biblical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, which existed long before the birth of the modern Zionist movement [citation needed].
" 1. Terminology: Anti-Zionism should also be distinguished from Anti-Semetism in that one can be Anti-Zionist (against the separation of people by race or religion), without being Anti-Semetic (hating all Jewish people). Zionists attempted legal means to ensure that Arabs would not be able to buy homes in Israel. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm
As Israeli President Olmert's approval rating among his own citizens fell to 20% due to his strict Zionist policies toward separating all Jews in Palestine and Israel from all Palestinians, it is clear that the majority of Israel's citizens are not Zionist. [2]
2. Intro: Early zionism was a movement toward returning Jewish people to the land known as Israel/Palestine, however, modern day zionism is a political ideology that is utilized for the purpose of segregating races of people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm Pco 04:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment: My problem with the article and with many articles I read that use anti-semitic and anti-zionist interchangeably is perhaps illustrated well by the following: David Duke is anti-semetic, as he is racist toward jews and anyone who may infringe upon the benefits that would otherwise go to what he would call christian/euro-whites in america. However he could not care less if the zionist in israel take all the land in and around palestine because it does not have any impact on his goals and greed. He may do speeches at muslim conferences in order to make a buck outside the U.S. by selling his anti-semite book and he may call himself an anti-zionist, but he is a racist against blacks, latinos, arabs and all muslims as well and he is an anti-semite, not an anti-zionist; regardless of the words he may choose to use to help his cause.
Anti-zionism and post-zionism section: There is no mention of U.N. Resolution 242 on this page which was intended to stop the spreading of zionist practices (stealing land and segregating people by the IMF), but instead the article has a difficult to understand quote by Noam Chomsky as the only reference to zionist opposition. The MLK quote equating anti-zionists and anti-semites does not even say what question he was asked when he responded that the questioner was talking about anti-semitism, so we have no way to know the context of his remark.
Furthermore, this part of the article is totally POV (misgivings?) how mild can you get. Who is the source for the last sentence (the zionists's foundation?) More than 50 years after the founding of the State of Israel, and after more than 80 years of Arab-Jewish conflict over Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, some groups have 'misgivings 'about current Israeli policies. The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist.
If the overwhelming majority are pro zionist, then why did this Zionist-led legislation fail? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm
Pco 16:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Zionism and post-Zionism
Main article: Anti-Zionism
1. "The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist. (no citation given by whoever posted this)
2. The MLK quote is inappropriate because the article does not quote the question that was asked of MLK. His answer would have a variety of possible meanings, depending upon what the question was. Pco 01:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Zionists within the Israeli government have attempted to achieve separatism through legislation that would prohibit Arabs from owning land on territory that they wish to keep segregated. [3] -BBC World News Zionists within the Israeli government have attempted to achieve separatism through legislation that would prohibit Arabs from owning land on territory that they wish to keep segregated. [4] -BBC World News Pco 01:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
This one is original research by some other user, with no source, yet you did not delete it:
"The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist." Pco 01:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Jay appears to think he owns this article.
This is NPOV: "The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist."
The BBC article I proposed to insert is talking about zionism and the legislation outraged people because is was racist. JayG does not even respond to the many points I have brought up, he just reverts it back the way he likes it. I have requested that people join in to the debate from the Jewish pages group, so leave the POV on until some questions are discussed. Or do you own the page? 17:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You have not discussed anything at length. You have not specifically addressed a single issue that I brought up. If you read this section, you will see that it is not just one sentence that is unsourced. i.e. I have mentioned at least 5 things above that should be put in or removed and there is nothing from a source at this url, which you should probably read to expand your POV on zionism: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
Pco -- clearly, you are not up with the rules of the road around here. If Jayjg Who Certainly Does Not Own This Article determines that a group disagrees with Zionism, that group is, by definition, unqualified to be referenced in the text. Possible reasons Jayg Who Certainly Does Not Own This Article will provide for summarily dismissing a group you identify include:
I tried to add the segment below for balance, but it didn't take. Its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people. ref: A national liberation movement:
I removed this statement from the article:
I requested a source for that, no-one came up with it, so i removed it.
I've never heard the word "Zionism" used with this meaning. If anyone can provide an example, it can be put back into the article. -- Amir E. Aharoni 14:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, I'd like not to be contentious, and I'm open to the idea that there is a better way, but I think the first paragraph needs to be changed. To be well written, I think the first sentence should be as simple as possible, in stating what the movement is. What we have instead is moderately awkward and POV, by attempting to throw the historical justification into the first sentence. This is confusing, in addition to giving the article an immediate flavor of bias. It's particularly confusing, because it refers to the nation evolving two millenia ago, as if this nationhood had been continuous. If you're going to throw in the historical basis, don't you have to acknowledge that some other things happened in between? The first sentence, as written, seems quite unnatural for a neutral encyclopedic article trying to clearly explain exactly what Zionism is. I looked back to some previous versions which were in fact better, but I tried to make the most modest change I could to fix this. Mackan79 18:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is a national liberation movement[1], a political movement and an ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century CE. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish societies in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.
(I think that after this and whatever else you think is relevant to the history before 1948, like quotes from zionist leaders from way back, we should fairly discuss the proponents and opponents of modern day zionism and legal citations from the UN and others, without continuously going over the same historical grounds) The subcats do not flow well as it is Pco 19:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, we could have a page on Roots of Zionism and Modern Zionism. I lost the zion link and now cannot remember where I found it, but that text above is found on some article.... Pco 19:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I returned to the previous first sentence, as it seems simpler and clearer than the version with "represents a reclamation of Jewish nationhood ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
BTW "Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel." doesn't sound very Neutral - some would say Palestine, but since this article seems to be owned by a a friend of the Owner, there's not much point in complaining. Pretty soon WP will be sponsored by advertising so we will be free to write the truth in the non-sponsored version, while the official version of WP will give the mainstream version of reality. Fourtildas 07:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
No one ever responded to their problems with these 2 citations/text, so I am reinserting them, if someone wants to discuss, please contact me. Pco 23:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Intro: Early zionism was a movement toward returning Jewish people to the land known as Israel/Palestine, however, modern day zionism is a political ideology that is utilized for the purpose of segregating races of people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm Pco 04:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Terminology: Anti-Zionism should also be distinguished from Anti-Semetism in that one can be Anti-Zionist (against the separation of people by race or religion), without being Anti-Semetic (hating all Jewish people). Zionists attempted legal means to ensure that Arabs would not be able to buy homes in Israel. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm
Pco 23:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
" Some zionists encourage the parliament to pass separatist laws that will deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [8] BBC World News.
Mackan, I reverted your edit because I couldn't see the sense of it.
What do you mean by saying (a) it's a movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in Israel, and (b) that it continues primarily as support for the State of Israel as a Jewish state? What is the difference? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a huge difference between supporting people living somewhere and supporting everything that the State does. Are you kidding me? It is an ideology now, regardless of what you say. The objective of moving to a state and calling it Israel is finished. The continuation of the movement or ideology is to segregate and get more land. You are all so biased, it is ridiculous. You want to put the Israel flag on zionism but you don't want to define it for what it is. You don't address the edits I made because you cannot defend deleting them, other than through your own bias.
I have requested a 3rd party to review my edits and I guess you (slim, mackan) are not here to do that, since you just revert without comment. Pco
Some zionists encourage the parliament to pass separatist laws that will deny Arabs the right to live on State land. (BBC Article Link Here).
Okay is that straight forward enough to fit in this article or does that still offend someone?
Thanks for the links I will review them again.
The thing that I don't understand is why some people don't want to admit that zionist principals in today's world have to be denounced by anyone who wants freedom anywhere. It is like saying that yeah, I am glad I have freedom in the U.S. regardless of who I am, but over there, they deserve to be racist, because they have had hard times... or is there some other reason you can explain to me?
If you want to inform people about Zionism, then tell them what Zionists DO. The article says "movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people" So how do they achieve that aim? That is what people want to know, not a ton of repetitive history over early zionism that no longer applies today. What do Zionists do today?, 5 years ago, where are the examples of this? I gave a citation of what they do in Parliament. Is that false. Why can't it be in the article?
Huh, things move pretty quickly here. Well, first, if you wanted to remove the third sentence, you could have removed the third sentence without recombining the first two. I've stated why I think those should be separated; is there a reason you disagree? As I said, I separated it because it is long, confusing (by stating that the land of Israel evolved 2000 years ago as if the state has been there all along), and gives the impression of bias simply by the silliness of going on for so long in the effort to justify itself. I don't see why this is controversial; the previous version is obviously a bad and unencyclopedic first sentence. Or can you tell me why you disagree?
So, second, you would like to know what is the difference between pushing for the creation of Israel, and then supporting the state and its continued existence as a Jewish state? Well, as is noted above, one refers to a fait accompli, and one refers to the continuing relevance of the ideology. I guess it comes down to this: If we're trying to explain what Zionism is, isn't it relevant to say that support for and opposition to Zionism today largely relates to whether Israel should continue as a Jewish state? Isn't the basic difference between a Zionist and someone who's simply pro-Israel, that Zionism focuses specifically on Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state? For instance, see Wikipedia's article on the Jewish State: "Anti-Zionists and Zionists argue about whether a Jewish state should exist at all. Having been created within the sphere of international law as the instrument for Jewish self-determination, the question of whether Israel is to maintain and strengthen its status as a state for the Jewish people, or transition to being a state purely for "all of its citizens", or identify as both -- and, if both, how to resolve any tensions that arise from their coexistence -- captures these polarities." Isn't this true?
To ignore this strikes me as overlooking the primary relevance of the term. In any case, that's the difference. Also, the first two sentences, as written, don't even make reference to the actual state of Israel. Shouldn't the connection be acknowledged up front? Again, I would bet that there are still better ways to write this, but I don't see why you'd revert the edit, which seems clearly on the way toward a clearer and better summation of what Zionism, as the word is used, really refers to. I'm going to reinstate my edit, in the hope that this is clear enough, or that there will be some countersuggestion to address the obvious strangeness of the current (previous) version. Mackan79 07:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for asking. Yes, it seems highly unreasonable, since I left an extended explanation up here since last night and nobody responded all day. Quite clearly, the only way to get a reaction is to actually make the change. Moreover, you guys are repeatedly pretending to be complete idiots, which also makes building a concensus rather difficult. This isn't a personal attack. I don't think you're actually complete idiots. You're simply pretending to be complete idiots. Can you stop doing that? Please? The objections you've been posting are almost entirely incomprehensible.
"Whatever it is [I] tied them to"? I tied them to the statement that "Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel." Are you saying Jewish nationhood in ancient times doesn't support this? Then what exactly /does/ it support? Can you explain this? This might help me understand why it's in the first sentence. Do /you/ understand? An explanation would be immensely helpful. I've asked several times.
Incidentally, if ancient Jewish nationhood doesn't support the religious connection, then what /is/ the ancient religious connection? And where is the source for that? Should that sentence be removed, then? Seems to me I was killing two birds with one stone by supporting that statement, and removing a clearly extaneous, biased, unclear and misleading statement from the first sentence.
"Not only that, you've again inserted claims that have no sources backing them up." Gosh, so is it too much to ask that you actually tell me which claims those are? I'd explain why this would be helpful, but again, I don't think you're actually a complete idiot. Is this really the most cooperative you're capable of being?
My request: would you please explain what is unsourced in my previous version, and why you think the current version is better? Would you also explain why you think I'm incorrect that the inclusion of the historical information in the first sentence makes it unclear, biased, misleading, and inappropriately emphasizes a comparatively irrelevant fact? If you respond to these questions, I won't have to make the edits simply to get your attention. Many thanks. Mackan79 04:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Slimvirgin, I'm not British, but you are realy being insufferable. 1. If you would use half your brain for half a second, I wouldn't be forced to explain this stuff in such excruciating detail. You clearly have some number of magic gripes in your head which you're going to make me talk and talk until I hit on and only then respond. Do you really have no idea why I would think there's a problem with the first sentence? None? It looks absolutely perfect to you? The best first sentence you could possibly think of? I have offered four independent reasons why the first sentence is crap. You have responded to one of them, and your response continues to be indescribably dense. But I'll keep trying. 2. Yes, there IS a reason to think people will confuse the land of Israel and the state of Israel, because most people don't know the difference, and the difference is made entirely unclear, and at this point there basically /isn't/ a difference. Also, people will be assuming that the first paragraph will be talking about Israel (the current state), because anybody who knows anything whatseover about Zionism knows that it has to do with Israel, which these days, is known as a state. Moreover, even if it has nothing to do with the state (which would be an additional problem with the first paragraph not to mention that, ummm, a homeland was actually created in 1948), the statement is still a half-truth, by talking about an evolution of nationhood, without acknowledging that the nationhood did not actually persist. It is vaguely implied that the nationhood sort of went on until the last of the kingdoms left, but is that even what it's saying? Do you know? What is it saying? Would you please tell me what it's saying? If the sentence is so clear, I would think it would have been extremely easy for you to tell me what the sentence is trying to say. Why haven't you? This is excedingly annoying and wasting my time. 3. In any case, as I said, the problem is not that people will actually be mislead, but simply that it is an inappropriate choice of facts to include in the first sentence. It is a half-truth, pointing to two facts in history for no apparent reason other than to assert some sort of vague historical basis for Zionism, while leaving out any other part of the story. It also implies an endorsement from Wikipedia that Zionism is fundamentally about the fact that Israel evolved 3000 years ago, and that's why Zionists think there should be a homeland today. But the same paragraph says this actually isn't the main reason. So what gives? As I keep saying, the main problem here is that the sentence and pargraph is simply /weird/, unhelpful, and makes very little sense, in a way that reflects bias and undermines the neutrality of the article.
Seriously, you are being indescribably dense, though again I think you're doing it on purpose. I'm sure you find it annoying for me to say that; I'm sure you find my long explanations here annoying as well, but I'm not sure how else to get through to you when you are literally refusing to use your brain in any way other than to try to deflect me.
If you're going to assert dominion over this article, would you please be willing to discuss your opinions on its construction openly and honestly? You're very obviously not. If you don't have time, you shouldn't be asserting dominion over this article. Is this too much to ask? Again, my request: please tell me what the first sentence, as written, is trying to get accross. Why, specifically, are the historical facts there? If you keep asking me to explain my problem again and again and again and again, you can't complain that I'm not being succinct enough, but I can certainly complain that you're being intentionally dense. Thanks again. Mackan79 14:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, actually my strategy appears to be getting more effective, as you just provided the first semi-thoughtful response I've received. Do you have any idea, incidentally, the kind of patience I'm showing? You've literally asked me to repeat the same comments time and time again as if you're incapable of reading what I've already written. You've repeatedly deleted my edits, after I explained them in detail, with short, curt, and incomprehensible objections. You've done this despite my constant attempts to come up with better and more deferential solutions. I've said that you guys are pretending to be idiots, and that you're pretending to be dense. I've said this with the specific intent of shaming you into explaining your thought process in more detail, which you have been refusing to do. This is a very modest response on my part. If you think I'm being uncivil, look how much I've written only now to receive any kind of response. I have not insulted you. I'm simply noting that I believe your repeated claims not to understand anything I'm saying are disingenuous, because they are, and I want you to know I noticed. (Your most recent post is a big improvement, though, so I thank you for that).
Ok, so your objections:
1. First you were saying I have unsourced material; now you're saying it's simply the same stuff as in the second paragraph. Can you tell me, then, which part was redundant? The first sentence was already there to begin with. The second is where I said it culminated in the State of Israel, which isn't repeated. The third sentence says the movement continues despite the creation of Israel as support for Israel. What exactly is redundant? Clearly, the second paragrah provides various phrasings of what is Zionism, so in a way they're talking about the same thing. The phrasings are each significantly different, however. I don't see the problem.
2. Ok, the historical basis is important, I don't disagree. I'm only deleting it from the first sentence, though. Ironically, when I then insert it elsewhere, you revert me because you don't like where I insert it. Do you see how, at least from my persepctive, this makes things difficult? To be totally clear, I do not remotely object to an explanation of Zionism's historical basis. I simply don't think it should be in the first sentence. I've also been discouraged from making more involved attempts to insert it elsewhere, as you've shown that anything I do will likely be used as another excuse to revert me. So to the point: can you see why I don't think this historical basis should be in the first sentence? My reasons have been clarity, neutrality, extraneousness, and the misleading way it is written. I would add that you've read this sentence so many times, I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you. To a first time reader, though, I assure you that the sentence is very unclear as to what it's trying to say. I promise! This isn't me being a moron. My reading comprehension is above average. The average reader's isn't.
3. Your statement that everyone who reads Wikipedia knows that the Land of Israel does not mean the State of Israel is incredibly ignorant, and again I think equally disingenuous. As I said, however, the statement is misleading regardless, and in fact disregards the distinction itself, as you appear to do as well. Your whole historical point here, after all, is that the land of Israel evolved 3000 years ago, and so Zionism, in forming the state, is just kind of reminding people of that fact. Your whole point is that it's all kind of the same thing that's been there all along. /That's/ what makes it misleading to simply say it evolved, without acknowledging the other things that took place in between. What also makes it misleading is the failure to then even mention the State of Israel as something different, and as the state that Zionism actually created.
4. The half-truth, thus, is most obviously there, and I resent your pretending not to see it. For one, you know darn well that you are trying to write this intro in a way that is flattering to your version of the theory. You know darned well that you are including the information to start the reader off knowing not just that it's a theory, but a theory with a historical basis. Now, I wouldn't even necessarily object to that, except that you happen to have done it in a way that is also awkward, unclear, and misleading. Yes, misleading. If nationhood evolved 3000 years ago, after all, and Zionsim is simply the theory that there should be a nationhood, then what exactly was the continuing problem? According to the first sentence, this movement ended succesfully 3000 years ago. You're being ridiculous by pretending not to see what I'm talking about here. As I said above, for the sentence to complete, it would at least need to be appended with the phrase "...before breaking up and falling into other hands for the next 2000 years, before the State of Israel was created in 1948," or something similar. This would be the whole truth. Or, perhaps, you could say ", where Jewish nationhood evolved around 1000BC, and existed for 1000 years," or whatever it was. This would not be misleading. To simply say that it evolved, however, and then make no mention of what happened afterwards, is a completely unnatural explanation. It starts a thought, and then simply leaves off. It's completely weird. I simply don't believe you can't see this. Please try. What it leaves off, specifically, is the point that Zionism is a suggestion that Jews RECLAIM nationhood in Israel. This is in the second definition I provided, incidentally: "A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine."
From your statement above, I guess you're possibly of the opinion that they weren't actually reestablishing it, but simply renewing notice to the world of their nationhood or something to that effect. That would actually go far to explaining why you include only the evolution and nothing later. If this is your position, though, I would strongly suggest that this is not a position which should be endorsed by Wikipedia in the first sentence. This is your POV, if that's what it is, which is not sourced. Is this the problem? Maybe it is.
5. A culmination does not mean the end. If you want to use the word "resulted" instead, though, that's accurate too. Personally I would simply describe it more as a culmination, because, after all, that was the whole point, to get a homeland. This wasn't exactly some insignificant byproduct.
6. It seems to me that the footnotes support what I linked them to very well. In fact, that clause itself where I placed them seems to specifically reference the sentence from which I took them. "While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel," it says, the primary basis was actually secular and related to antisemitism. Is this not indeed a qualification of the first sentence, which had suggested the primary basis of a historical religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the land of Israel? This is why I moved the sources down there, where that thought was more appropriately placed. Yes, you are certainly right that there is a distinction between historical nationhood and religious tradition, but doesn't the latter derive directly from the former? If not, what does it derive from? The religious tradition, I'm assuming, is based in the ancient Jewish nationhood. You could source the statement with different information, of course, or you could elaborate on the ancient nationhood, and I wouldn't have a problem with either, but I do believe the cites where I placed them in fact support both the ancient nationhood and the traditional religious link.
With all that in mind, I still have a big problem with the first paragraph, but I'll seek another compromise. Thanks. Mackan79 19:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess the guy who reverted my text for Jay is not going to comment on his revert? You guys are good at quoting the rules, but you need to follow them too. They say you need to comment when you revert someone's text.
This dispute is over the inclusion of the following:
- Modern Zionists such as Haim Druckman encourage the Israeli Parliament to pass separatist laws that will deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [9] BBC World News. 04:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to illustrate the point or to get some point of understanding, think about this. If 17 parliament members wanted the legislation, but it did not pass, does that mean that the parliament who opposed it are not zionists? Is there a term for moderate zionists and radical zionists? Because if you say All or Most Jews are zionists, as someone put in this article, and then you say that "zionists" do not want to be separatists, then there must be some different types of zionists. We can't say that all jews are zionists as if that means the same thing to everyone. This article, as it is, does not help people to understand what zionism means today in real life. It says at the top of the article that it is not a history of Israel, yet it discusses almost nothing in the context of the last 30 years.
He makes a point; surely Zionism has evolved since in rose to prominence in the late 19th century, so I don't see a problem with the "modern" appelation, though I think for temporal sake "21th century Zionist" would be better. -- Kendrick7 talk 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Listen here Jay, I am going to include that article and if you don't like, then find an article that disputes what it says. Who do you think you are, accusing me of reverting, when you are the one who did it all day. I have filed a complaint and will continue to do this section that everyone thinks is a good idea, except you. You can write 30 paragraphs about why zionism rocks if you like. I don't delete your content. I am adding something that is missing and is important, so get a life. I am not anti-semetic as you would like to accuse of everyone who doesn't do what you say. Pco 19:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is clearly POV, because it mentions the viewpoint that zionism is racism, but mentions nothing about the viewpoint that anti-zionism is antisemitism.-- Sefringle 07:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's stop being simplistic. One aspect of zionism is to have a land for only jews, "where jews can live among jews" correct? Watch the movie Munich. By definition that is separatism and racism, whether you are for it or against it.
Anti-zionism is not necesarily anti-semitism - there are many jews who are anti-zionist. Pco 07:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you guys write something on "post zionism". I am adding a section on "modern zionism" whether you like it or not. If you take turns reverting my text as you did yesterday, then you will be reported just like Jayjg for lying about what I have posted, in order to get me blocked. Yesterday, we came to a consensus that a section on Modern Zionism was needed, so that is what I am doing. If you want to look at this intro issue as well, go ahead, otherwise I will.
This part in the intro is poorly written, and belongs in the Modern zionism section. If you don't like what I writel, then just add your own content. Stop reverting my content, because they are valid and you have no good reason, other than your own desire to deny the truth that some zionists do bad things. You have about 30 paragraphs about why zionism is good, so get off of your high horses.
While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was mainly secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. (first it says the modern movement was , where it should be modern movement is, not was.—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Pco ( talk • contribs)
Since this section is way too long and bias, I removed the part about the UN resolution declaring zionism as racism. It is currently stated pretty early in the anti-zionism article.-- Sefringle 07:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This is just a rough draft that I posted here in TALK last night and Jay decided he would delete it, while I am in the midst of trying to work on it and discuss it with people not including Jayjg who were participating cooperatively) Please comment constructively, this is not a final draft of what will be in the article. See [10] Pco 07:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
First of all, no one had objected to this new content, as what I had posted yesterday was one sentence and one link. I have edited down what I had stated above (see below). It is important because Olmert specifically talks about Zionism and Haim Druckman is a leading Zionist as is stated elsewhere in Wikipedia. Isn't this article about zionism? I am happy to hear votes, but I am going to get some from other people, rather than the people who are clearly biased against saying anything negative about zionism.
Pco
20:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Second of all, everyone should know that your other user name is Jayjg and you lied yesterday about what I posted in order to get me blocked and then you told Luna Santin to delete my request for a 3rd opinion and then you deleted the comments I had made on this talk page, and now you are back again under a different name. What are you going to do next?
Okay, so what is the other name you used? You told someone yesterday that you had two user names because one got spammed. Pco 20:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I never made any sockpuppet comment - and it even said on that entry that it was a hacker's comment, not mine. One of the people who are writing on this page is a hacker. I know that. I didn't call Jayjg a liar, the person who unblocked me after he had me blocked called him a liar. Pco 01:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Modern Zionism
While zionism was founded as a movement toward returning Jewish people to the land known as Israel or Palestine, modern day zionism is an ideology related to protecting and supporting jewish people within the State of Israel. Zionism is both political and religious.
President Olmert recently said that he wishes to "dilute" the meaning of zionism so that it will appeal to jewish citizens of both left and right wings [46]. Similar to George Bush's statement "You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists", Olmert was quoted as saying "Whoever believes in the right of the Jewish People to have a sovereign Jewish state in any part of the Land of Israel is a Zionist." [47] However, with Olmert's approval rating at only 20% within Israel [citation coming], one could easily conclude that many jews in Israel do not support his Zionist agenda.
While most people have accepted Israel's right to occupy land in Palestine, the most vocal critics of Zionism base their criticism on Israel's failure to comply with the United Nations Resolution 242 (citation coming) that was mutually agreed upon in 1968 to divide the land equitably and return land to Palestinians that had been taken during the recent war and was being occupied by the State of Israel at that time.[citation coming]
The political party which is identified with Religious Zionism is called Mafdal or NRP (National Religious Party). Gush Emunim, formally established in 1974, is an Israeli political movement which is closely associated with and highly influential within the National Religious Party (NRP). Gush Emunim encourages Jewish settlement on land they believe God has allotted for Jews.
Rabbi Haim Druckman, a founder of and leading activist within Gush Emunim returned to the National Religious Party from Morasha [48] and in 2002, Druckman managed to gain the support of 17 Israeli Parliament officials in an effort to pass a law that would deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [49] BBC World News. Druckman, has described the cabinet's support for this legislation as "one of the government's finest hours", a decision that he said "put colour back into the cheeks of Zionism". Many groups were outraged at the proposed legislation and called it blatantly racist [50].
If you want to vote for or against any of this content above, state specifically what sentence you oppose and why. Thanks. Pco 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This was a comment made earlier about the new "Modern Zionism" section: He (she actually) makes a point; surely Zionism has evolved since it rose to prominence in the late 19th century, so I don't see a problem with the "modern" appelation, though I think for temporal sake "21st Century Zionists" would be better. -- Kendrick7talk 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
If you want to vote for or against any of the content above, [11] state specifically what sentence you oppose and why. Thanks. Pco 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This was a comment made earlier about the new "Modern Zionism" section: He (she actually) makes a point; surely Zionism has evolved since it rose to prominence in the late 19th century, so I don't see a problem with the "modern" appelation, though I think for temporal sake "21st Century Zionists" would be better. -- Kendrick7talk 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
While User:Pco appears interested in expanding the topic of "Modern Zionism", her comments on Talk:Political Cooperative make me think she is using this article as a soapbox: "If you don't let someone tell the world that the politicians are using Zionism as a political tool to give Jewish people everywhere a bad name, while they profit, then how is the world going to know?" — Viriditas | Talk 00:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't notice that Slim Virgin deleted what I asked people to vote on. earlier today. Wow, this is some interesting place. I can tell you don't want new people on this site, so bye bye. It's too bad, I thought it was something good. Pco 01:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I accept the challege:
Need a little fixing up. Rich Farmbrough, 16:33 18 December 2006 (GMT).
Mackan79, is there a reason you refuse to leave brief comments? I've been wading through your edits, finding it very difficult to follow your points. And please, stop with the accusations and attacks. Try to keep your response to less than 50 words. Brevity is key. — Viriditas | Talk 23:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
So I'd like to renew my question: can someone please explain exactly what the historical facts in the first sentence are trying to say? It looks to me like it's suggesting a historical basis for Zionism, based in a Jewish presence in Israel for 3000 years. Yet, the statement about Kindgoms seem to suggest that the major presence ended in 200 AD. Is this correct? All in all, the sentence seems unnecessarily complex, unclear and confusing.
Would it not be better to simply state what Zionism is, and then to explain the various bases below? The first paragraph could be very sharp and clear without that historical information. It would give a strong flavor of neutrality, by resisting the urge to try to score points in the opening paragraph, and by giving no impression whether we think Zionism is good or bad. For this reader at least, the sentence as is leaves the pointed question: well, what happened after 200 AD? Honestly, the real impression it gives, though is: "Ok, expect a lot of awkward and biased material to follow; they couldn't even get through the first sentence before piling it on."
Shouldn't clarity and the appearance of neutrality be a priority? If it is, I simply don't see the need to single those two facts out in the first sentence, where any skeptic will immediately see bias. As a hypothetical, if we had three people -- one zionism proponent, one neutral person, and one zionism opponent -- is this the compromise they would reach? Mackan79 04:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, you seriously misunderstand me. I am not moving the sources to prove a point. I am moving them as a show of good faith, to you, rather than simply deleting them. I am trying to retain your information, while removing the bias from the first sentence. I explained this in detail, but you apparently didn't read it. Basically, I didn't want to delete it and have you tell me I'm deleting sourced information, so I moved it to an idea which it very much does support, even adding the word "historical" to make the point more clear. How was this inappropriate?
Just for your convenience, my explanation was that the sources in fact support both ideas, that of a historical connection and that of a religious connection. Don't they? Mackan79 22:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, I don't know what's wrong with you. You just made a completely false accusation against me and you're not even going to appologize. At least two people have said that they very much understand my objection, and agree with me. You are not entitled to tell me to explain things in 100 words. You are not entitled to tell me to explain something 15 times. This is arrogant, offensive, and belligerent. If you don't understand my suggestion, do you understand the statements made by the two others here? Do you understand anything that's been said here that you could actually write a sentence in response rather than simply telling me to repeat myself? Obviously you've decided that you don't like me, and so you don't have to show me the slightest bit of respect. Meanwhile, Slimvirgin is following me around and reverting my edits on other pages without explanation. Is this how you guys lead by example? Mackan79 23:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I really don't care enough to stick around and argue, but my suggestion is to move second part of first sentence to second paragraph where it is useful in expanding on what "Zionism is based in part upon" and does not distract from the otherwise clear definition of Zionism in the first sentence. "where Jewish nationhood is thought to have evolved somewhere between 1200 BCE and the late Second Temple era, and where Jewish kingdoms existed up to the 2nd century CE" WAS 4.250 11:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Change made based on support and weak opposition. Please feel free to expand historical basis section in body of article. Mackan79 20:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is a political movement rooted in religious doctrine.
If wikipedia doesn't state that Zionism is both religious and political right from the beginning (which is why it is undemocratic) then wikipedia is giving bias to the term in favor of the State of Israel.
It is like saying that christianity is a political movement because they support republican motives to make abortion illegal. Sure christianity has political motives, but it is still religious.
If I decided to make California for Atheists only (come on in if you agree to denounce your religion), then you would see that as a racist and religiously discriminatory idea, but if you convolute the meaning of zionism and confuse the issues with a ton of unimportant details, then maybe people won't see the truth about modern zionism. This article is intentionally not stating the information clearly. Zionists are of two types, those who support a homeland that is not segregated, and those who support a state that is segregated. No one would call zionism racism if the goal of the state was not obviously to deny the existence of all non-jews. Do Palestinians have a right to exist?
Unless I've missed something here, you have reverted, without comment or explanation, an edit I made in which I removed a passage that put forward dubious POV claims concerning racism and Zionism. [12] What's the deal? BYT 19:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
MOST JEWS???? WHERE IS THE SUPPORT FOR THIS - OF COURSE, THERE IS NONE, BUT LET'S KEEP IT ANYWAY, BECAUSE WE LIKE THE IDEA. Since 1948 most Jews have continued to identify as Zionists, in the sense that they support the State of Israel even if they do not choose to live there. This worldwide support has been of vital importance to Israel, both politically and financially. This has been particularly true since 1967, as the rise of Palestinian nationalism and the resulting political and military struggles have eroded sympathy for Israel among non-Jews, at least outside the United States. In recent years, many Jews have criticised the morality and expediency of Israel's continued control of the territories captured in 1967. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.36.250 ( talk • contribs)
{sniff sniff} Do I smell a sockpuppet? Compare 71.135.36.250 with Pco. -- GHcool 08:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The Anti-Zionism section is one of the largest sections in the article, 7 full paragraphs, even though it has its own whole article devoted to the subject. We manage to summarize all of Jewish history, 3 millenia worth, in 3 paragraphs, Aliyah gets 2 paragraphs, and we amazingly summarize Christian Zionism in just 2 sentences. On top of that, there is a second whole section devoted to the subject, "Opposition or ambivalence", comprising 4 more paragraphs. This kind of POV-pushing nonsense has to stop. There is a separate article Anti-Zionism, it's not going away, so get used to that, and work with it. I've cut out some of the irrelevant or unsourced stuff from the Anti-Zionism section, and it will be getting even smaller. Please decide on the critical points to keep, and remove the rest, so I don't have to cut it all myself. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 07:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I made my first effort. As a starting point, don't assume I'm aware of delicate implications. Some of the language is strong, but I tried to make it as reasonable to both sides as I could. The section might also include further brief Zionist responses to the anti-Zionist arguments. I added the reasons people say Zionism isn't racist, but I'm sure others know those arguments better than me.
I reincluded the more moderate forms of anti-Zionism because I think they're of interest and relevant and place the more radical criticism in a proper context. The section is also significantly smaller now, though. Mackan79 03:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I've cleaned out some more of the mess. The "Haredi anti-Zionism" stuff didn't belong in the article, and was really just a POV fork of Anti-Zionism started by now-banned editor Daniel575. As well, the Canaanism paragraph was a confusing morass, filled with POV (e.g. describing itself as an "important minority thread"), admitting itself that it "remains poorly defined", and filled with back-and-forth argumentation; it's some completely unsourced business that was created before there was an Anti-Zionism article, and somehow managed to stick around after the sub-article was spun-off. There's still more work to do, but those were two obvious targets for removal. Jayjg (talk) 18:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As GHcool says above "Without a doubt, Israel practices racial discrimination......Therefore, proponents of the "Zionism is racism" campaign should equally insist that Hindutva, Kemalism, and pan-Arabism are all racist or "undemocratic" ideologies."
We are not talking about other articles right now, we are talking about zionists.
The racial discrimination is based on religious principals stated by zionists and proclaimed as 'ZIONISM'. Discriminatory laws are promoted by ZIONISTS such as Haim Druckman. Separatist policies are initiated by zionists such as Olmert. You don't want to mention these things regardless of the citations from BBC and elsewhere that I inserted, but they are the basis for the controversy and they are the most important things to point out about Zionism. It only takes one sentence to say that Zionists support a homeland for the Jews in Palestine and Zionism is a religious doctrine with political motives. The rest of the story is based on why people criticize it, whether you want to state it or not. Pco 17:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Gush Emunim is an Israeli political movement that sprang out of the conquests of the Six-Day War in 1967, though it was not formally established as an organization until 1974, in the wake of the Yom Kippur War. It encouraged Jewish settlement of land they believe God has allotted for Jews. Gush Emunim was closely associated with, and highly influential in, the Mafdal - National Religious Party (NRP), the party which is identified with religious Zionism.
Rabbi Haim Druckman is a member of the National Religious Party. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/penncip/lustick/app1.html
In 2002, Zionist Haim Druckman gained the support of 17 Israeli Parliament officials in an effort to pass a law that would deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [14] BBC World News.
- In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 was passed. It stated that "zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination"[28] The resolution 3379 was rescinded in 1991 by the Resolution 4686[29]
PCO, if you can be clearer about exactly what you'd like to include, exactly where and why, it might be easier for others to respond. Also, based on my brief experience, I'd recomend avoiding accusations, whether justified or not, which go against Wikipedia principles, and which simply give people a pretext to disregard you. Just my two cents. Best,
Mackan79
18:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Slim Virgin: If you have a reason to delete this section, then state what it is, don't just revert it. Pco 18:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
When the president says he needs to dilute the meaning of the term that is used to create policy for the state, then it is relevant - any idiot can see that. When people try to make laws based on the doctrine of zionism, then that is relevant. Any idiot can see that. Pco 18:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC) Your revert actions are not in wikipedias best interest. There are 20 paragraphs of praise and excuses for zionism over the past 300 years. A little current news is a lot more interesting and relevant for wikipedia. Pco 18:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert recently said that he wishes to "dilute the definition of zionism" so that it will appeal to jewish people in both left and right wings of politics [15]. In an effort to gain blanket support for Zionism regardless of the amount of land that Israel chooses to occupy in Palestine, the prime minister stated: "Whoever believes in the right of the Jewish People to have a sovereign Jewish state in any part of the Land of Israel is a Zionist."
Due to separatist policies for segregation of jews and non-jews by Zionists within the Israeli Government, there is much controversy over today's use of the doctrine in politics. In 2002, a leader in the Zionist movement, Haim Druckman gained the support of 17 Israeli Parliament officials in an effort to pass a law that would deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [16] BBC World News. This legislation was widely criticized as being racist and religious discrimination. Rabbi Haim Druckman is a member of the National Religious Party. [17]
Gush Emunim was closely associated with, and highly influential in, the National Religious Party (NRP), and is the party which is identified with religious Zionism. Gush Emunim encourages further Jewish settlement of land they believe God has allotted for Jews.
Much of the controversy surrounding Zionism in politics is that the proponents of Zionism have used political means to avoid applying the UN Resolution 242, which called for Israel to return land to Palestinians. The land has not been returned and more Jewish-only settlements have been constructed on territory designated for Palestinians (citation coming).
In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 was passed. It stated that "zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination" [18] Resolution 3379 was rescinded in 1991 by the Resolution 4686 after pressure from the United States toward member nation representatives. [19] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pco ( talk • contribs)
If you read the article you will see that "blanket support" is what he is trying to achieve. Pco 19:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
You zionists clearly don't want to include the facts of what Olmert himself, Druckman or the UN have to say about zionism. It is you who are forcing POV, not me. I have asked Mr. Wales to review the content, so why don't you leave it there until he has a chance to do that. Afraid of the truth?
Pco
18:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
It just occurred to me that since you are zionists, you have a conflict of interest, and should not be editing this article.
Pco
19:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I am addressing anyone editing this article. Are you a Zionist? Gordon? Slim Virgin? Jossi? Humus Sapien? Mackan? Pco 19:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Really, PCO, you've got to stop with the accusations. You can't go around insinuating things about people's personal beliefs any more than they can do the same back to you. Conflicts of interests don't relate to simply supporting large political movements. I'd like to be on your side here, but I can't do it if you're going to throw around personal attacks. Regarding your article, the thing is, even if your article supports something controversial, that doesn't allow you to state it as a fact on Wikipedia, which is what you did. You'd have to say "It was alleged in this and that article that Olmert is trying to justify his seizure of any land he wants." Then we'd have an issue to debate: is this a prominent enough viewpoint that justifies inclusion in the article?
Unfortunately, the material you're suggesting is several steps away from something that could actually be included. This makes it hard to get people to work with you. I'd strongly suggest you try to remove any POV from it that you possibly can before bringing it to the table. And please, don't bite people who are trying to help you! That's at least me here, and possibly others as well. Mackan79 19:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Not one of you have come up with a single valid reason for denying the content. All you want to do is praise zionism - not educate people about it. When Olmert speaks on zionism it is relevant - if you don't like the wording, then modify it, but instead you do a total revert because you have no good reasons.
Pco 19:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC) When Mr. Wales views the content, we will see what he thinks. You are a click of zionists who want to deny the truth. It is obvious.
Pco
19:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
How is it you are calling it an attack when I ask people if they are zionists? I did not think of it as an attack on anyone, I am simply trying to show why the article is POV in the first place. Do any of you refute the issue of Olmert's statement on Zionism this year being relevant? Pco 20:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't see where anyone has pointed this out, sorry if I missed it: Part of the problem with the "quotation" from Ehud Olmert is that the part about "dilute the definition of Zionism" was not spoken by him. In fact, the only thing that was said by him as reported on that web site is "Whoever believes in the right of the Jewish People to have a sovereign Jewish state in any part of the Land of Israel is a Zionist." All the rest of it is the opinion of the writer on that web site. There is nothing remarkable about Olmert's statement, nor does it represent any change or dilution in the definition of Zionism. Some, of course, might disagree, such as the writer on the web site, as well as a small proportion of the Israeli population. I think most Israelis (and non-Israeli supporters of Israel) would agree with Olmert's statement and find it to be nothing new, as it merely allows for the possibility of relinquishing some of the land captured in 1967. 6SJ7 20:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I just can't help but smile. The world is still turning, eh Mackan79? -- GHcool 01:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Including quotes by famous people that say there is a connection between the two is acceptable and necessary for this page for the purpose of NPOV, especially since we have a part describing the comparision between zionism and racism. At a bare minimum, say that many people take on the view that there is a connection. Specificly the following needs to be in the article
Fully sourced as of 07:20, 10 December 2006 your addition was made at 05:28, 10 December 2006. When you made your addition there was not one mention of antisemitism. ( → Netscott) 07:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Just an aside, but I think that quote, though widely attributed to Dr. King, is really by someone else. I think that came up here a few months ago. Leaving aside anything else, it would probably be good to track down the source before using it again. Tom Harrison Talk 14:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If the King quote is validly sourced, and if there is consensus that it be used, then WP:NPOV would require that that accurately sourced quotes of similarly notable figures who actively oppose the notion that anti-Zionism equates with anti-Semitism be included in the article as well. Personally, it's hard for me to see how Dr. King is qualified to be quoted about Zionism while Noam Chomsky is not. BYT 16:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to insert numerous citations so that this article would be balanced. As it is, even the "anti-zionism" section sounds pro-zionism. Granted, some of my sentences may not have been totally NPOV, but the facts and the citations are, and I am willing to modify the sentences that link to the articles in BBC, etc.
I think "The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist" MUST BE cited or REMOVED
This article mentions almost nothing about the practices of zionists to segregate by race and the people who oppose zionist policies.
There is a citation I will get for Olmert saying that he wants to change the meaning of zionism and it looks like that should be mentioned and linked, because if zionism has been changed then we should tell people about it.
(PRIOR Notes) When 80% of the population opposes a zionist leader like Olmert, what must one assume? That his zionist policies are not supported.
This needs to be added, or the article is not NPOV. You can change the wording if you don't like "one must assume", but the content must remain. I challenge the NPOV of this article without it.
Anti-Zionism should also be distinguished from Anti-Semetism in that one can be Anti-Zionist (against the separation of people by race or religion), without being Anti-Semetic (simply hating all Jewish people). As Israeli President Olmert's approval rating among his own citizens fell to 20% due to his strict Zionist policies toward separating all Jews in Palestine and Israel from all Palestinians, it is clear that the majority of Israel's citizens are not Zionist. [1]
Please refer to management for a decision. Pco 19:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Once the state was created, zionism became a political tool for stealing land and oppressing non-jews. This is a fact that is further supported in the Chomsky dialogue that you already have on this page. Pco 19:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
(this sentence above and the link should probably replace the one that cites no source at: TERMINOLOGY - The term Zionism is also sometimes used retroactively to describe the millennia-old Biblical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, which existed long before the birth of the modern Zionist movement [citation needed].
" 1. Terminology: Anti-Zionism should also be distinguished from Anti-Semetism in that one can be Anti-Zionist (against the separation of people by race or religion), without being Anti-Semetic (hating all Jewish people). Zionists attempted legal means to ensure that Arabs would not be able to buy homes in Israel. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm
As Israeli President Olmert's approval rating among his own citizens fell to 20% due to his strict Zionist policies toward separating all Jews in Palestine and Israel from all Palestinians, it is clear that the majority of Israel's citizens are not Zionist. [2]
2. Intro: Early zionism was a movement toward returning Jewish people to the land known as Israel/Palestine, however, modern day zionism is a political ideology that is utilized for the purpose of segregating races of people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm Pco 04:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment: My problem with the article and with many articles I read that use anti-semitic and anti-zionist interchangeably is perhaps illustrated well by the following: David Duke is anti-semetic, as he is racist toward jews and anyone who may infringe upon the benefits that would otherwise go to what he would call christian/euro-whites in america. However he could not care less if the zionist in israel take all the land in and around palestine because it does not have any impact on his goals and greed. He may do speeches at muslim conferences in order to make a buck outside the U.S. by selling his anti-semite book and he may call himself an anti-zionist, but he is a racist against blacks, latinos, arabs and all muslims as well and he is an anti-semite, not an anti-zionist; regardless of the words he may choose to use to help his cause.
Anti-zionism and post-zionism section: There is no mention of U.N. Resolution 242 on this page which was intended to stop the spreading of zionist practices (stealing land and segregating people by the IMF), but instead the article has a difficult to understand quote by Noam Chomsky as the only reference to zionist opposition. The MLK quote equating anti-zionists and anti-semites does not even say what question he was asked when he responded that the questioner was talking about anti-semitism, so we have no way to know the context of his remark.
Furthermore, this part of the article is totally POV (misgivings?) how mild can you get. Who is the source for the last sentence (the zionists's foundation?) More than 50 years after the founding of the State of Israel, and after more than 80 years of Arab-Jewish conflict over Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, some groups have 'misgivings 'about current Israeli policies. The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist.
If the overwhelming majority are pro zionist, then why did this Zionist-led legislation fail? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm
Pco 16:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Zionism and post-Zionism
Main article: Anti-Zionism
1. "The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist. (no citation given by whoever posted this)
2. The MLK quote is inappropriate because the article does not quote the question that was asked of MLK. His answer would have a variety of possible meanings, depending upon what the question was. Pco 01:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Zionists within the Israeli government have attempted to achieve separatism through legislation that would prohibit Arabs from owning land on territory that they wish to keep segregated. [3] -BBC World News Zionists within the Israeli government have attempted to achieve separatism through legislation that would prohibit Arabs from owning land on territory that they wish to keep segregated. [4] -BBC World News Pco 01:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
This one is original research by some other user, with no source, yet you did not delete it:
"The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist." Pco 01:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Jay appears to think he owns this article.
This is NPOV: "The overwhelming majority of Jewish organizations and denominations are strongly pro-Zionist."
The BBC article I proposed to insert is talking about zionism and the legislation outraged people because is was racist. JayG does not even respond to the many points I have brought up, he just reverts it back the way he likes it. I have requested that people join in to the debate from the Jewish pages group, so leave the POV on until some questions are discussed. Or do you own the page? 17:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You have not discussed anything at length. You have not specifically addressed a single issue that I brought up. If you read this section, you will see that it is not just one sentence that is unsourced. i.e. I have mentioned at least 5 things above that should be put in or removed and there is nothing from a source at this url, which you should probably read to expand your POV on zionism: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
Pco -- clearly, you are not up with the rules of the road around here. If Jayjg Who Certainly Does Not Own This Article determines that a group disagrees with Zionism, that group is, by definition, unqualified to be referenced in the text. Possible reasons Jayg Who Certainly Does Not Own This Article will provide for summarily dismissing a group you identify include:
I tried to add the segment below for balance, but it didn't take. Its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people. ref: A national liberation movement:
I removed this statement from the article:
I requested a source for that, no-one came up with it, so i removed it.
I've never heard the word "Zionism" used with this meaning. If anyone can provide an example, it can be put back into the article. -- Amir E. Aharoni 14:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, I'd like not to be contentious, and I'm open to the idea that there is a better way, but I think the first paragraph needs to be changed. To be well written, I think the first sentence should be as simple as possible, in stating what the movement is. What we have instead is moderately awkward and POV, by attempting to throw the historical justification into the first sentence. This is confusing, in addition to giving the article an immediate flavor of bias. It's particularly confusing, because it refers to the nation evolving two millenia ago, as if this nationhood had been continuous. If you're going to throw in the historical basis, don't you have to acknowledge that some other things happened in between? The first sentence, as written, seems quite unnatural for a neutral encyclopedic article trying to clearly explain exactly what Zionism is. I looked back to some previous versions which were in fact better, but I tried to make the most modest change I could to fix this. Mackan79 18:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is a national liberation movement[1], a political movement and an ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century CE. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish societies in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.
(I think that after this and whatever else you think is relevant to the history before 1948, like quotes from zionist leaders from way back, we should fairly discuss the proponents and opponents of modern day zionism and legal citations from the UN and others, without continuously going over the same historical grounds) The subcats do not flow well as it is Pco 19:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, we could have a page on Roots of Zionism and Modern Zionism. I lost the zion link and now cannot remember where I found it, but that text above is found on some article.... Pco 19:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I returned to the previous first sentence, as it seems simpler and clearer than the version with "represents a reclamation of Jewish nationhood ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
BTW "Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel." doesn't sound very Neutral - some would say Palestine, but since this article seems to be owned by a a friend of the Owner, there's not much point in complaining. Pretty soon WP will be sponsored by advertising so we will be free to write the truth in the non-sponsored version, while the official version of WP will give the mainstream version of reality. Fourtildas 07:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
No one ever responded to their problems with these 2 citations/text, so I am reinserting them, if someone wants to discuss, please contact me. Pco 23:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Intro: Early zionism was a movement toward returning Jewish people to the land known as Israel/Palestine, however, modern day zionism is a political ideology that is utilized for the purpose of segregating races of people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm Pco 04:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Terminology: Anti-Zionism should also be distinguished from Anti-Semetism in that one can be Anti-Zionist (against the separation of people by race or religion), without being Anti-Semetic (hating all Jewish people). Zionists attempted legal means to ensure that Arabs would not be able to buy homes in Israel. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2115857.stm
Pco 23:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
" Some zionists encourage the parliament to pass separatist laws that will deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [8] BBC World News.
Mackan, I reverted your edit because I couldn't see the sense of it.
What do you mean by saying (a) it's a movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in Israel, and (b) that it continues primarily as support for the State of Israel as a Jewish state? What is the difference? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a huge difference between supporting people living somewhere and supporting everything that the State does. Are you kidding me? It is an ideology now, regardless of what you say. The objective of moving to a state and calling it Israel is finished. The continuation of the movement or ideology is to segregate and get more land. You are all so biased, it is ridiculous. You want to put the Israel flag on zionism but you don't want to define it for what it is. You don't address the edits I made because you cannot defend deleting them, other than through your own bias.
I have requested a 3rd party to review my edits and I guess you (slim, mackan) are not here to do that, since you just revert without comment. Pco
Some zionists encourage the parliament to pass separatist laws that will deny Arabs the right to live on State land. (BBC Article Link Here).
Okay is that straight forward enough to fit in this article or does that still offend someone?
Thanks for the links I will review them again.
The thing that I don't understand is why some people don't want to admit that zionist principals in today's world have to be denounced by anyone who wants freedom anywhere. It is like saying that yeah, I am glad I have freedom in the U.S. regardless of who I am, but over there, they deserve to be racist, because they have had hard times... or is there some other reason you can explain to me?
If you want to inform people about Zionism, then tell them what Zionists DO. The article says "movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people" So how do they achieve that aim? That is what people want to know, not a ton of repetitive history over early zionism that no longer applies today. What do Zionists do today?, 5 years ago, where are the examples of this? I gave a citation of what they do in Parliament. Is that false. Why can't it be in the article?
Huh, things move pretty quickly here. Well, first, if you wanted to remove the third sentence, you could have removed the third sentence without recombining the first two. I've stated why I think those should be separated; is there a reason you disagree? As I said, I separated it because it is long, confusing (by stating that the land of Israel evolved 2000 years ago as if the state has been there all along), and gives the impression of bias simply by the silliness of going on for so long in the effort to justify itself. I don't see why this is controversial; the previous version is obviously a bad and unencyclopedic first sentence. Or can you tell me why you disagree?
So, second, you would like to know what is the difference between pushing for the creation of Israel, and then supporting the state and its continued existence as a Jewish state? Well, as is noted above, one refers to a fait accompli, and one refers to the continuing relevance of the ideology. I guess it comes down to this: If we're trying to explain what Zionism is, isn't it relevant to say that support for and opposition to Zionism today largely relates to whether Israel should continue as a Jewish state? Isn't the basic difference between a Zionist and someone who's simply pro-Israel, that Zionism focuses specifically on Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state? For instance, see Wikipedia's article on the Jewish State: "Anti-Zionists and Zionists argue about whether a Jewish state should exist at all. Having been created within the sphere of international law as the instrument for Jewish self-determination, the question of whether Israel is to maintain and strengthen its status as a state for the Jewish people, or transition to being a state purely for "all of its citizens", or identify as both -- and, if both, how to resolve any tensions that arise from their coexistence -- captures these polarities." Isn't this true?
To ignore this strikes me as overlooking the primary relevance of the term. In any case, that's the difference. Also, the first two sentences, as written, don't even make reference to the actual state of Israel. Shouldn't the connection be acknowledged up front? Again, I would bet that there are still better ways to write this, but I don't see why you'd revert the edit, which seems clearly on the way toward a clearer and better summation of what Zionism, as the word is used, really refers to. I'm going to reinstate my edit, in the hope that this is clear enough, or that there will be some countersuggestion to address the obvious strangeness of the current (previous) version. Mackan79 07:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for asking. Yes, it seems highly unreasonable, since I left an extended explanation up here since last night and nobody responded all day. Quite clearly, the only way to get a reaction is to actually make the change. Moreover, you guys are repeatedly pretending to be complete idiots, which also makes building a concensus rather difficult. This isn't a personal attack. I don't think you're actually complete idiots. You're simply pretending to be complete idiots. Can you stop doing that? Please? The objections you've been posting are almost entirely incomprehensible.
"Whatever it is [I] tied them to"? I tied them to the statement that "Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel." Are you saying Jewish nationhood in ancient times doesn't support this? Then what exactly /does/ it support? Can you explain this? This might help me understand why it's in the first sentence. Do /you/ understand? An explanation would be immensely helpful. I've asked several times.
Incidentally, if ancient Jewish nationhood doesn't support the religious connection, then what /is/ the ancient religious connection? And where is the source for that? Should that sentence be removed, then? Seems to me I was killing two birds with one stone by supporting that statement, and removing a clearly extaneous, biased, unclear and misleading statement from the first sentence.
"Not only that, you've again inserted claims that have no sources backing them up." Gosh, so is it too much to ask that you actually tell me which claims those are? I'd explain why this would be helpful, but again, I don't think you're actually a complete idiot. Is this really the most cooperative you're capable of being?
My request: would you please explain what is unsourced in my previous version, and why you think the current version is better? Would you also explain why you think I'm incorrect that the inclusion of the historical information in the first sentence makes it unclear, biased, misleading, and inappropriately emphasizes a comparatively irrelevant fact? If you respond to these questions, I won't have to make the edits simply to get your attention. Many thanks. Mackan79 04:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Slimvirgin, I'm not British, but you are realy being insufferable. 1. If you would use half your brain for half a second, I wouldn't be forced to explain this stuff in such excruciating detail. You clearly have some number of magic gripes in your head which you're going to make me talk and talk until I hit on and only then respond. Do you really have no idea why I would think there's a problem with the first sentence? None? It looks absolutely perfect to you? The best first sentence you could possibly think of? I have offered four independent reasons why the first sentence is crap. You have responded to one of them, and your response continues to be indescribably dense. But I'll keep trying. 2. Yes, there IS a reason to think people will confuse the land of Israel and the state of Israel, because most people don't know the difference, and the difference is made entirely unclear, and at this point there basically /isn't/ a difference. Also, people will be assuming that the first paragraph will be talking about Israel (the current state), because anybody who knows anything whatseover about Zionism knows that it has to do with Israel, which these days, is known as a state. Moreover, even if it has nothing to do with the state (which would be an additional problem with the first paragraph not to mention that, ummm, a homeland was actually created in 1948), the statement is still a half-truth, by talking about an evolution of nationhood, without acknowledging that the nationhood did not actually persist. It is vaguely implied that the nationhood sort of went on until the last of the kingdoms left, but is that even what it's saying? Do you know? What is it saying? Would you please tell me what it's saying? If the sentence is so clear, I would think it would have been extremely easy for you to tell me what the sentence is trying to say. Why haven't you? This is excedingly annoying and wasting my time. 3. In any case, as I said, the problem is not that people will actually be mislead, but simply that it is an inappropriate choice of facts to include in the first sentence. It is a half-truth, pointing to two facts in history for no apparent reason other than to assert some sort of vague historical basis for Zionism, while leaving out any other part of the story. It also implies an endorsement from Wikipedia that Zionism is fundamentally about the fact that Israel evolved 3000 years ago, and that's why Zionists think there should be a homeland today. But the same paragraph says this actually isn't the main reason. So what gives? As I keep saying, the main problem here is that the sentence and pargraph is simply /weird/, unhelpful, and makes very little sense, in a way that reflects bias and undermines the neutrality of the article.
Seriously, you are being indescribably dense, though again I think you're doing it on purpose. I'm sure you find it annoying for me to say that; I'm sure you find my long explanations here annoying as well, but I'm not sure how else to get through to you when you are literally refusing to use your brain in any way other than to try to deflect me.
If you're going to assert dominion over this article, would you please be willing to discuss your opinions on its construction openly and honestly? You're very obviously not. If you don't have time, you shouldn't be asserting dominion over this article. Is this too much to ask? Again, my request: please tell me what the first sentence, as written, is trying to get accross. Why, specifically, are the historical facts there? If you keep asking me to explain my problem again and again and again and again, you can't complain that I'm not being succinct enough, but I can certainly complain that you're being intentionally dense. Thanks again. Mackan79 14:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, actually my strategy appears to be getting more effective, as you just provided the first semi-thoughtful response I've received. Do you have any idea, incidentally, the kind of patience I'm showing? You've literally asked me to repeat the same comments time and time again as if you're incapable of reading what I've already written. You've repeatedly deleted my edits, after I explained them in detail, with short, curt, and incomprehensible objections. You've done this despite my constant attempts to come up with better and more deferential solutions. I've said that you guys are pretending to be idiots, and that you're pretending to be dense. I've said this with the specific intent of shaming you into explaining your thought process in more detail, which you have been refusing to do. This is a very modest response on my part. If you think I'm being uncivil, look how much I've written only now to receive any kind of response. I have not insulted you. I'm simply noting that I believe your repeated claims not to understand anything I'm saying are disingenuous, because they are, and I want you to know I noticed. (Your most recent post is a big improvement, though, so I thank you for that).
Ok, so your objections:
1. First you were saying I have unsourced material; now you're saying it's simply the same stuff as in the second paragraph. Can you tell me, then, which part was redundant? The first sentence was already there to begin with. The second is where I said it culminated in the State of Israel, which isn't repeated. The third sentence says the movement continues despite the creation of Israel as support for Israel. What exactly is redundant? Clearly, the second paragrah provides various phrasings of what is Zionism, so in a way they're talking about the same thing. The phrasings are each significantly different, however. I don't see the problem.
2. Ok, the historical basis is important, I don't disagree. I'm only deleting it from the first sentence, though. Ironically, when I then insert it elsewhere, you revert me because you don't like where I insert it. Do you see how, at least from my persepctive, this makes things difficult? To be totally clear, I do not remotely object to an explanation of Zionism's historical basis. I simply don't think it should be in the first sentence. I've also been discouraged from making more involved attempts to insert it elsewhere, as you've shown that anything I do will likely be used as another excuse to revert me. So to the point: can you see why I don't think this historical basis should be in the first sentence? My reasons have been clarity, neutrality, extraneousness, and the misleading way it is written. I would add that you've read this sentence so many times, I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you. To a first time reader, though, I assure you that the sentence is very unclear as to what it's trying to say. I promise! This isn't me being a moron. My reading comprehension is above average. The average reader's isn't.
3. Your statement that everyone who reads Wikipedia knows that the Land of Israel does not mean the State of Israel is incredibly ignorant, and again I think equally disingenuous. As I said, however, the statement is misleading regardless, and in fact disregards the distinction itself, as you appear to do as well. Your whole historical point here, after all, is that the land of Israel evolved 3000 years ago, and so Zionism, in forming the state, is just kind of reminding people of that fact. Your whole point is that it's all kind of the same thing that's been there all along. /That's/ what makes it misleading to simply say it evolved, without acknowledging the other things that took place in between. What also makes it misleading is the failure to then even mention the State of Israel as something different, and as the state that Zionism actually created.
4. The half-truth, thus, is most obviously there, and I resent your pretending not to see it. For one, you know darn well that you are trying to write this intro in a way that is flattering to your version of the theory. You know darned well that you are including the information to start the reader off knowing not just that it's a theory, but a theory with a historical basis. Now, I wouldn't even necessarily object to that, except that you happen to have done it in a way that is also awkward, unclear, and misleading. Yes, misleading. If nationhood evolved 3000 years ago, after all, and Zionsim is simply the theory that there should be a nationhood, then what exactly was the continuing problem? According to the first sentence, this movement ended succesfully 3000 years ago. You're being ridiculous by pretending not to see what I'm talking about here. As I said above, for the sentence to complete, it would at least need to be appended with the phrase "...before breaking up and falling into other hands for the next 2000 years, before the State of Israel was created in 1948," or something similar. This would be the whole truth. Or, perhaps, you could say ", where Jewish nationhood evolved around 1000BC, and existed for 1000 years," or whatever it was. This would not be misleading. To simply say that it evolved, however, and then make no mention of what happened afterwards, is a completely unnatural explanation. It starts a thought, and then simply leaves off. It's completely weird. I simply don't believe you can't see this. Please try. What it leaves off, specifically, is the point that Zionism is a suggestion that Jews RECLAIM nationhood in Israel. This is in the second definition I provided, incidentally: "A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine."
From your statement above, I guess you're possibly of the opinion that they weren't actually reestablishing it, but simply renewing notice to the world of their nationhood or something to that effect. That would actually go far to explaining why you include only the evolution and nothing later. If this is your position, though, I would strongly suggest that this is not a position which should be endorsed by Wikipedia in the first sentence. This is your POV, if that's what it is, which is not sourced. Is this the problem? Maybe it is.
5. A culmination does not mean the end. If you want to use the word "resulted" instead, though, that's accurate too. Personally I would simply describe it more as a culmination, because, after all, that was the whole point, to get a homeland. This wasn't exactly some insignificant byproduct.
6. It seems to me that the footnotes support what I linked them to very well. In fact, that clause itself where I placed them seems to specifically reference the sentence from which I took them. "While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel," it says, the primary basis was actually secular and related to antisemitism. Is this not indeed a qualification of the first sentence, which had suggested the primary basis of a historical religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the land of Israel? This is why I moved the sources down there, where that thought was more appropriately placed. Yes, you are certainly right that there is a distinction between historical nationhood and religious tradition, but doesn't the latter derive directly from the former? If not, what does it derive from? The religious tradition, I'm assuming, is based in the ancient Jewish nationhood. You could source the statement with different information, of course, or you could elaborate on the ancient nationhood, and I wouldn't have a problem with either, but I do believe the cites where I placed them in fact support both the ancient nationhood and the traditional religious link.
With all that in mind, I still have a big problem with the first paragraph, but I'll seek another compromise. Thanks. Mackan79 19:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess the guy who reverted my text for Jay is not going to comment on his revert? You guys are good at quoting the rules, but you need to follow them too. They say you need to comment when you revert someone's text.
This dispute is over the inclusion of the following:
- Modern Zionists such as Haim Druckman encourage the Israeli Parliament to pass separatist laws that will deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [9] BBC World News. 04:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to illustrate the point or to get some point of understanding, think about this. If 17 parliament members wanted the legislation, but it did not pass, does that mean that the parliament who opposed it are not zionists? Is there a term for moderate zionists and radical zionists? Because if you say All or Most Jews are zionists, as someone put in this article, and then you say that "zionists" do not want to be separatists, then there must be some different types of zionists. We can't say that all jews are zionists as if that means the same thing to everyone. This article, as it is, does not help people to understand what zionism means today in real life. It says at the top of the article that it is not a history of Israel, yet it discusses almost nothing in the context of the last 30 years.
He makes a point; surely Zionism has evolved since in rose to prominence in the late 19th century, so I don't see a problem with the "modern" appelation, though I think for temporal sake "21th century Zionist" would be better. -- Kendrick7 talk 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Listen here Jay, I am going to include that article and if you don't like, then find an article that disputes what it says. Who do you think you are, accusing me of reverting, when you are the one who did it all day. I have filed a complaint and will continue to do this section that everyone thinks is a good idea, except you. You can write 30 paragraphs about why zionism rocks if you like. I don't delete your content. I am adding something that is missing and is important, so get a life. I am not anti-semetic as you would like to accuse of everyone who doesn't do what you say. Pco 19:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is clearly POV, because it mentions the viewpoint that zionism is racism, but mentions nothing about the viewpoint that anti-zionism is antisemitism.-- Sefringle 07:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's stop being simplistic. One aspect of zionism is to have a land for only jews, "where jews can live among jews" correct? Watch the movie Munich. By definition that is separatism and racism, whether you are for it or against it.
Anti-zionism is not necesarily anti-semitism - there are many jews who are anti-zionist. Pco 07:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you guys write something on "post zionism". I am adding a section on "modern zionism" whether you like it or not. If you take turns reverting my text as you did yesterday, then you will be reported just like Jayjg for lying about what I have posted, in order to get me blocked. Yesterday, we came to a consensus that a section on Modern Zionism was needed, so that is what I am doing. If you want to look at this intro issue as well, go ahead, otherwise I will.
This part in the intro is poorly written, and belongs in the Modern zionism section. If you don't like what I writel, then just add your own content. Stop reverting my content, because they are valid and you have no good reason, other than your own desire to deny the truth that some zionists do bad things. You have about 30 paragraphs about why zionism is good, so get off of your high horses.
While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was mainly secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. (first it says the modern movement was , where it should be modern movement is, not was.—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Pco ( talk • contribs)
Since this section is way too long and bias, I removed the part about the UN resolution declaring zionism as racism. It is currently stated pretty early in the anti-zionism article.-- Sefringle 07:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This is just a rough draft that I posted here in TALK last night and Jay decided he would delete it, while I am in the midst of trying to work on it and discuss it with people not including Jayjg who were participating cooperatively) Please comment constructively, this is not a final draft of what will be in the article. See [10] Pco 07:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
First of all, no one had objected to this new content, as what I had posted yesterday was one sentence and one link. I have edited down what I had stated above (see below). It is important because Olmert specifically talks about Zionism and Haim Druckman is a leading Zionist as is stated elsewhere in Wikipedia. Isn't this article about zionism? I am happy to hear votes, but I am going to get some from other people, rather than the people who are clearly biased against saying anything negative about zionism.
Pco
20:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Second of all, everyone should know that your other user name is Jayjg and you lied yesterday about what I posted in order to get me blocked and then you told Luna Santin to delete my request for a 3rd opinion and then you deleted the comments I had made on this talk page, and now you are back again under a different name. What are you going to do next?
Okay, so what is the other name you used? You told someone yesterday that you had two user names because one got spammed. Pco 20:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I never made any sockpuppet comment - and it even said on that entry that it was a hacker's comment, not mine. One of the people who are writing on this page is a hacker. I know that. I didn't call Jayjg a liar, the person who unblocked me after he had me blocked called him a liar. Pco 01:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Modern Zionism
While zionism was founded as a movement toward returning Jewish people to the land known as Israel or Palestine, modern day zionism is an ideology related to protecting and supporting jewish people within the State of Israel. Zionism is both political and religious.
President Olmert recently said that he wishes to "dilute" the meaning of zionism so that it will appeal to jewish citizens of both left and right wings [46]. Similar to George Bush's statement "You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists", Olmert was quoted as saying "Whoever believes in the right of the Jewish People to have a sovereign Jewish state in any part of the Land of Israel is a Zionist." [47] However, with Olmert's approval rating at only 20% within Israel [citation coming], one could easily conclude that many jews in Israel do not support his Zionist agenda.
While most people have accepted Israel's right to occupy land in Palestine, the most vocal critics of Zionism base their criticism on Israel's failure to comply with the United Nations Resolution 242 (citation coming) that was mutually agreed upon in 1968 to divide the land equitably and return land to Palestinians that had been taken during the recent war and was being occupied by the State of Israel at that time.[citation coming]
The political party which is identified with Religious Zionism is called Mafdal or NRP (National Religious Party). Gush Emunim, formally established in 1974, is an Israeli political movement which is closely associated with and highly influential within the National Religious Party (NRP). Gush Emunim encourages Jewish settlement on land they believe God has allotted for Jews.
Rabbi Haim Druckman, a founder of and leading activist within Gush Emunim returned to the National Religious Party from Morasha [48] and in 2002, Druckman managed to gain the support of 17 Israeli Parliament officials in an effort to pass a law that would deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [49] BBC World News. Druckman, has described the cabinet's support for this legislation as "one of the government's finest hours", a decision that he said "put colour back into the cheeks of Zionism". Many groups were outraged at the proposed legislation and called it blatantly racist [50].
If you want to vote for or against any of this content above, state specifically what sentence you oppose and why. Thanks. Pco 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This was a comment made earlier about the new "Modern Zionism" section: He (she actually) makes a point; surely Zionism has evolved since it rose to prominence in the late 19th century, so I don't see a problem with the "modern" appelation, though I think for temporal sake "21st Century Zionists" would be better. -- Kendrick7talk 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
If you want to vote for or against any of the content above, [11] state specifically what sentence you oppose and why. Thanks. Pco 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This was a comment made earlier about the new "Modern Zionism" section: He (she actually) makes a point; surely Zionism has evolved since it rose to prominence in the late 19th century, so I don't see a problem with the "modern" appelation, though I think for temporal sake "21st Century Zionists" would be better. -- Kendrick7talk 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
While User:Pco appears interested in expanding the topic of "Modern Zionism", her comments on Talk:Political Cooperative make me think she is using this article as a soapbox: "If you don't let someone tell the world that the politicians are using Zionism as a political tool to give Jewish people everywhere a bad name, while they profit, then how is the world going to know?" — Viriditas | Talk 00:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't notice that Slim Virgin deleted what I asked people to vote on. earlier today. Wow, this is some interesting place. I can tell you don't want new people on this site, so bye bye. It's too bad, I thought it was something good. Pco 01:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I accept the challege:
Need a little fixing up. Rich Farmbrough, 16:33 18 December 2006 (GMT).
Mackan79, is there a reason you refuse to leave brief comments? I've been wading through your edits, finding it very difficult to follow your points. And please, stop with the accusations and attacks. Try to keep your response to less than 50 words. Brevity is key. — Viriditas | Talk 23:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
So I'd like to renew my question: can someone please explain exactly what the historical facts in the first sentence are trying to say? It looks to me like it's suggesting a historical basis for Zionism, based in a Jewish presence in Israel for 3000 years. Yet, the statement about Kindgoms seem to suggest that the major presence ended in 200 AD. Is this correct? All in all, the sentence seems unnecessarily complex, unclear and confusing.
Would it not be better to simply state what Zionism is, and then to explain the various bases below? The first paragraph could be very sharp and clear without that historical information. It would give a strong flavor of neutrality, by resisting the urge to try to score points in the opening paragraph, and by giving no impression whether we think Zionism is good or bad. For this reader at least, the sentence as is leaves the pointed question: well, what happened after 200 AD? Honestly, the real impression it gives, though is: "Ok, expect a lot of awkward and biased material to follow; they couldn't even get through the first sentence before piling it on."
Shouldn't clarity and the appearance of neutrality be a priority? If it is, I simply don't see the need to single those two facts out in the first sentence, where any skeptic will immediately see bias. As a hypothetical, if we had three people -- one zionism proponent, one neutral person, and one zionism opponent -- is this the compromise they would reach? Mackan79 04:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, you seriously misunderstand me. I am not moving the sources to prove a point. I am moving them as a show of good faith, to you, rather than simply deleting them. I am trying to retain your information, while removing the bias from the first sentence. I explained this in detail, but you apparently didn't read it. Basically, I didn't want to delete it and have you tell me I'm deleting sourced information, so I moved it to an idea which it very much does support, even adding the word "historical" to make the point more clear. How was this inappropriate?
Just for your convenience, my explanation was that the sources in fact support both ideas, that of a historical connection and that of a religious connection. Don't they? Mackan79 22:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, I don't know what's wrong with you. You just made a completely false accusation against me and you're not even going to appologize. At least two people have said that they very much understand my objection, and agree with me. You are not entitled to tell me to explain things in 100 words. You are not entitled to tell me to explain something 15 times. This is arrogant, offensive, and belligerent. If you don't understand my suggestion, do you understand the statements made by the two others here? Do you understand anything that's been said here that you could actually write a sentence in response rather than simply telling me to repeat myself? Obviously you've decided that you don't like me, and so you don't have to show me the slightest bit of respect. Meanwhile, Slimvirgin is following me around and reverting my edits on other pages without explanation. Is this how you guys lead by example? Mackan79 23:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I really don't care enough to stick around and argue, but my suggestion is to move second part of first sentence to second paragraph where it is useful in expanding on what "Zionism is based in part upon" and does not distract from the otherwise clear definition of Zionism in the first sentence. "where Jewish nationhood is thought to have evolved somewhere between 1200 BCE and the late Second Temple era, and where Jewish kingdoms existed up to the 2nd century CE" WAS 4.250 11:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Change made based on support and weak opposition. Please feel free to expand historical basis section in body of article. Mackan79 20:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Zionism is a political movement rooted in religious doctrine.
If wikipedia doesn't state that Zionism is both religious and political right from the beginning (which is why it is undemocratic) then wikipedia is giving bias to the term in favor of the State of Israel.
It is like saying that christianity is a political movement because they support republican motives to make abortion illegal. Sure christianity has political motives, but it is still religious.
If I decided to make California for Atheists only (come on in if you agree to denounce your religion), then you would see that as a racist and religiously discriminatory idea, but if you convolute the meaning of zionism and confuse the issues with a ton of unimportant details, then maybe people won't see the truth about modern zionism. This article is intentionally not stating the information clearly. Zionists are of two types, those who support a homeland that is not segregated, and those who support a state that is segregated. No one would call zionism racism if the goal of the state was not obviously to deny the existence of all non-jews. Do Palestinians have a right to exist?
Unless I've missed something here, you have reverted, without comment or explanation, an edit I made in which I removed a passage that put forward dubious POV claims concerning racism and Zionism. [12] What's the deal? BYT 19:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
MOST JEWS???? WHERE IS THE SUPPORT FOR THIS - OF COURSE, THERE IS NONE, BUT LET'S KEEP IT ANYWAY, BECAUSE WE LIKE THE IDEA. Since 1948 most Jews have continued to identify as Zionists, in the sense that they support the State of Israel even if they do not choose to live there. This worldwide support has been of vital importance to Israel, both politically and financially. This has been particularly true since 1967, as the rise of Palestinian nationalism and the resulting political and military struggles have eroded sympathy for Israel among non-Jews, at least outside the United States. In recent years, many Jews have criticised the morality and expediency of Israel's continued control of the territories captured in 1967. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.36.250 ( talk • contribs)
{sniff sniff} Do I smell a sockpuppet? Compare 71.135.36.250 with Pco. -- GHcool 08:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The Anti-Zionism section is one of the largest sections in the article, 7 full paragraphs, even though it has its own whole article devoted to the subject. We manage to summarize all of Jewish history, 3 millenia worth, in 3 paragraphs, Aliyah gets 2 paragraphs, and we amazingly summarize Christian Zionism in just 2 sentences. On top of that, there is a second whole section devoted to the subject, "Opposition or ambivalence", comprising 4 more paragraphs. This kind of POV-pushing nonsense has to stop. There is a separate article Anti-Zionism, it's not going away, so get used to that, and work with it. I've cut out some of the irrelevant or unsourced stuff from the Anti-Zionism section, and it will be getting even smaller. Please decide on the critical points to keep, and remove the rest, so I don't have to cut it all myself. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 07:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I made my first effort. As a starting point, don't assume I'm aware of delicate implications. Some of the language is strong, but I tried to make it as reasonable to both sides as I could. The section might also include further brief Zionist responses to the anti-Zionist arguments. I added the reasons people say Zionism isn't racist, but I'm sure others know those arguments better than me.
I reincluded the more moderate forms of anti-Zionism because I think they're of interest and relevant and place the more radical criticism in a proper context. The section is also significantly smaller now, though. Mackan79 03:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I've cleaned out some more of the mess. The "Haredi anti-Zionism" stuff didn't belong in the article, and was really just a POV fork of Anti-Zionism started by now-banned editor Daniel575. As well, the Canaanism paragraph was a confusing morass, filled with POV (e.g. describing itself as an "important minority thread"), admitting itself that it "remains poorly defined", and filled with back-and-forth argumentation; it's some completely unsourced business that was created before there was an Anti-Zionism article, and somehow managed to stick around after the sub-article was spun-off. There's still more work to do, but those were two obvious targets for removal. Jayjg (talk) 18:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As GHcool says above "Without a doubt, Israel practices racial discrimination......Therefore, proponents of the "Zionism is racism" campaign should equally insist that Hindutva, Kemalism, and pan-Arabism are all racist or "undemocratic" ideologies."
We are not talking about other articles right now, we are talking about zionists.
The racial discrimination is based on religious principals stated by zionists and proclaimed as 'ZIONISM'. Discriminatory laws are promoted by ZIONISTS such as Haim Druckman. Separatist policies are initiated by zionists such as Olmert. You don't want to mention these things regardless of the citations from BBC and elsewhere that I inserted, but they are the basis for the controversy and they are the most important things to point out about Zionism. It only takes one sentence to say that Zionists support a homeland for the Jews in Palestine and Zionism is a religious doctrine with political motives. The rest of the story is based on why people criticize it, whether you want to state it or not. Pco 17:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Gush Emunim is an Israeli political movement that sprang out of the conquests of the Six-Day War in 1967, though it was not formally established as an organization until 1974, in the wake of the Yom Kippur War. It encouraged Jewish settlement of land they believe God has allotted for Jews. Gush Emunim was closely associated with, and highly influential in, the Mafdal - National Religious Party (NRP), the party which is identified with religious Zionism.
Rabbi Haim Druckman is a member of the National Religious Party. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/penncip/lustick/app1.html
In 2002, Zionist Haim Druckman gained the support of 17 Israeli Parliament officials in an effort to pass a law that would deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [14] BBC World News.
- In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 was passed. It stated that "zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination"[28] The resolution 3379 was rescinded in 1991 by the Resolution 4686[29]
PCO, if you can be clearer about exactly what you'd like to include, exactly where and why, it might be easier for others to respond. Also, based on my brief experience, I'd recomend avoiding accusations, whether justified or not, which go against Wikipedia principles, and which simply give people a pretext to disregard you. Just my two cents. Best,
Mackan79
18:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Slim Virgin: If you have a reason to delete this section, then state what it is, don't just revert it. Pco 18:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
When the president says he needs to dilute the meaning of the term that is used to create policy for the state, then it is relevant - any idiot can see that. When people try to make laws based on the doctrine of zionism, then that is relevant. Any idiot can see that. Pco 18:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC) Your revert actions are not in wikipedias best interest. There are 20 paragraphs of praise and excuses for zionism over the past 300 years. A little current news is a lot more interesting and relevant for wikipedia. Pco 18:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert recently said that he wishes to "dilute the definition of zionism" so that it will appeal to jewish people in both left and right wings of politics [15]. In an effort to gain blanket support for Zionism regardless of the amount of land that Israel chooses to occupy in Palestine, the prime minister stated: "Whoever believes in the right of the Jewish People to have a sovereign Jewish state in any part of the Land of Israel is a Zionist."
Due to separatist policies for segregation of jews and non-jews by Zionists within the Israeli Government, there is much controversy over today's use of the doctrine in politics. In 2002, a leader in the Zionist movement, Haim Druckman gained the support of 17 Israeli Parliament officials in an effort to pass a law that would deny Arabs the right to live on State land. [16] BBC World News. This legislation was widely criticized as being racist and religious discrimination. Rabbi Haim Druckman is a member of the National Religious Party. [17]
Gush Emunim was closely associated with, and highly influential in, the National Religious Party (NRP), and is the party which is identified with religious Zionism. Gush Emunim encourages further Jewish settlement of land they believe God has allotted for Jews.
Much of the controversy surrounding Zionism in politics is that the proponents of Zionism have used political means to avoid applying the UN Resolution 242, which called for Israel to return land to Palestinians. The land has not been returned and more Jewish-only settlements have been constructed on territory designated for Palestinians (citation coming).
In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 was passed. It stated that "zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination" [18] Resolution 3379 was rescinded in 1991 by the Resolution 4686 after pressure from the United States toward member nation representatives. [19] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pco ( talk • contribs)
If you read the article you will see that "blanket support" is what he is trying to achieve. Pco 19:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
You zionists clearly don't want to include the facts of what Olmert himself, Druckman or the UN have to say about zionism. It is you who are forcing POV, not me. I have asked Mr. Wales to review the content, so why don't you leave it there until he has a chance to do that. Afraid of the truth?
Pco
18:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
It just occurred to me that since you are zionists, you have a conflict of interest, and should not be editing this article.
Pco
19:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I am addressing anyone editing this article. Are you a Zionist? Gordon? Slim Virgin? Jossi? Humus Sapien? Mackan? Pco 19:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Really, PCO, you've got to stop with the accusations. You can't go around insinuating things about people's personal beliefs any more than they can do the same back to you. Conflicts of interests don't relate to simply supporting large political movements. I'd like to be on your side here, but I can't do it if you're going to throw around personal attacks. Regarding your article, the thing is, even if your article supports something controversial, that doesn't allow you to state it as a fact on Wikipedia, which is what you did. You'd have to say "It was alleged in this and that article that Olmert is trying to justify his seizure of any land he wants." Then we'd have an issue to debate: is this a prominent enough viewpoint that justifies inclusion in the article?
Unfortunately, the material you're suggesting is several steps away from something that could actually be included. This makes it hard to get people to work with you. I'd strongly suggest you try to remove any POV from it that you possibly can before bringing it to the table. And please, don't bite people who are trying to help you! That's at least me here, and possibly others as well. Mackan79 19:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Not one of you have come up with a single valid reason for denying the content. All you want to do is praise zionism - not educate people about it. When Olmert speaks on zionism it is relevant - if you don't like the wording, then modify it, but instead you do a total revert because you have no good reasons.
Pco 19:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC) When Mr. Wales views the content, we will see what he thinks. You are a click of zionists who want to deny the truth. It is obvious.
Pco
19:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
How is it you are calling it an attack when I ask people if they are zionists? I did not think of it as an attack on anyone, I am simply trying to show why the article is POV in the first place. Do any of you refute the issue of Olmert's statement on Zionism this year being relevant? Pco 20:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't see where anyone has pointed this out, sorry if I missed it: Part of the problem with the "quotation" from Ehud Olmert is that the part about "dilute the definition of Zionism" was not spoken by him. In fact, the only thing that was said by him as reported on that web site is "Whoever believes in the right of the Jewish People to have a sovereign Jewish state in any part of the Land of Israel is a Zionist." All the rest of it is the opinion of the writer on that web site. There is nothing remarkable about Olmert's statement, nor does it represent any change or dilution in the definition of Zionism. Some, of course, might disagree, such as the writer on the web site, as well as a small proportion of the Israeli population. I think most Israelis (and non-Israeli supporters of Israel) would agree with Olmert's statement and find it to be nothing new, as it merely allows for the possibility of relinquishing some of the land captured in 1967. 6SJ7 20:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I just can't help but smile. The world is still turning, eh Mackan79? -- GHcool 01:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)