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Зајди, зајди јасно сонце
зајди помрачи се
и ти јасна ле месечино
бегај удави се.
Црнеј горо, црнеј сестро
двата да црнејме
ти за твојте лисја ле горо
јас за мојта младост.
Твојте лисја горо сестро
пак ќе ти се вратат
а мојата младост ле горо
нема да се врати. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jingiby (
talk •
contribs)
17:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Чия е “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце”?
Страстите около песента "Message for the Queen" в саундтрака към хитовия американски филм “300” преминаха фазата на национализма. Седмици наред българи, македонци и сърби спориха чия е песента, послужила за основа на разтърсващата мелодия. Край на спора сложи композиторът Тейлър Бейтс, който призна, че песента, изпята от иранката Азам Али, е заимствана от българската "Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SQPQemLmO0&mode=related&search=
Според акад. Николай Кауфман “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце” категорично е българска. “Още преди Освобождението на тази основа се пеят няколко градски песни, обаче преди тях се пее една народна: “Булка върви, булка върви из гора зелена. Като върви, като върви жално плаче” и т. н. Този мотив се ползва от Любен Каравелов и той прави своята знаменита песен, която става едва ли не като химн навремето. Това си е една чисто българска песен”, каза академикът пред “Политика”. Според него македонците, които също се удариха в гърдите по повод на филма “300”, нямат основание да го правят. “Те действително са вземали много песни от нас, защото са били по това време българи, каквито сме и ние. Така че ако претендират за тая песен, нямат никакво основание, тъй като се знае откъде идва тя и къде отива”, категоричен е Николай Кауфман. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP-c_-lxus&mode=related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OLWFjMy3nw&mode=related&search=
Според друг виден фолклорист – проф. Георг Краев, “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце” е балканска кръчмарска песен. “Има я поне в няколко песнопойки, без да се знае, че текстът е на Любен Каравелов, но тя е балканска, доколкото България е гнездото, откъдето се разпространяват тези песни”, каза пред “Политика” професорът. Той е по-либерален и към претенциите на македонците: “Те така да се каже имат известно право. Важното е, че песента се пее. Не виждам защо такива псевдонационалистически страсти се разиграват”. И настоява на своето: “Напротив – това е началото на шлагерната музика – музиката, която се запява от всички и която влиза в кръчмите.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqMWYahVEc8&mode=related&search=
“Нямам никакъв спор с проф. Краев. Смятам само, че той не е прав, като твърди, че странджанският химн “Ясен месец веч изгрява” е на същата основа. Неговата мелодия няма нищо общо с тази. “Зайди, зайди” си е мелодия, която си е закована от една страна от песента с текста на Любен Каравелов, а още преди това – с народната песен “Булка върви”, смята акад. Кауфман.
Tyler Bates - The composer of the movie "300" responding to Macedonian claims:
"As the composer of the music titled 'Message For The Queen', I would like to make it clear that while the introduction expresses the woodwind melody present in many recorded versions of the song "Zajdi, Zajdi Jasno Slance", this music is equally based on Bulgarian traditional folk music."
First lyric record of the song was published in Turnovo (Bulgaria) by Ljuben Karavelov in 1878.
Nice, but provide the source for this claims -- Laveol T 15:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you please source the usage of the song before claiming it entirely as originating from the Republic of Macedonia. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I was just about to work out how many of the participants in the latest edit war I'd be going to block (fingers were itching, I can tell you), when I noticed Jingiby's most recent Solomonic edits may have resolved the dispute. Is that so? So, the upshot is it's not a folksong at all but an authored, modern song by a Macedonian guy based on a more traditional folk song from Bulgaria. Now, that's nice.
Only problem I have now is, if that's the case then the lyrics are probably copyrighted and need to be deleted from the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Suit yourself... That song is Macedonian. Even the Gypsies (no offense!) in Vranje sing it bowing to its Macedonian origin. Nevertheless, such a small people as are we Macedonians cannot outvoice all those that stand against us. And, be said, that the lyrics of a folk song are not copyrighted, so please put them back, at least they are in plain Macedonian. Oh, yes, how is it that, everything we have, even a song, is always genuine Bulgarian? Why isn't it (at least once!) Serbian? Or Greek? Or Turkish? Or Albanian? Or Vlach? It's always Bulgarian. But let it be... They don't even have a song to be proud to... Except, maybe, Ратка пиратка, if one can be proud of that... Filipgd 22:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The user Titikaka1 has removed sourced material and all references to Aleksandar Sarievski. Please discuss changes on this talk page before making such huge changes. -- Hegumen ( talk) 15:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The song is not a song from Sarievski, this is folk song. Please remove the infos about Sarievski! -- Titikaka1 (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
So what is the relation between these two songs? The text seems to be quite different, if the opening words are anything to go by (even I with my non-existent knowledge of you language(s) can see that), and the article says that the melody is "completely different" too? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
At the moment the article is a somewhat contradictory. The introduction states it's a Macedonian and Bulgarian song while the follow up section says it was written and composed by Sarievski. -- Hegumen ( talk) 06:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think there should be a Cernej goro article because, as far as I can tell, there is no such song. It appears that he loosely based Zajdi, zajdi on a small section from an obscure poem written/collected by Lyuben Karavelov (?):
Сбирайте са, моми, булки, и млади ергене! Да чуете барем една песен и от мене. Събрахте са. Знайте сега, че моята песен не весели младо сърдце, мерише на плесен. Слънце ярко, слънце светло, зайди, помрачи са; а ти, ясна месечинко, бягай, удави са! Не светете на турските кръвави тирани, които са телата ни покриле със рани (...)
and on a few lines from another poem by Karavelov titled Bulka varvi iz gora zelena which Sarievski calls "Cernej goro":
Булка върви, булка върви през гора зелена, като върви, като върви, жално-милно плаче, жално-милно плаче, джанам, плаче и нарежда: Черней, горо, черней, сестро, двама да чернейме, ти за твойте листи, горо, аз за първо либе. Тебе та е, горо-ле сестро, слана осланила, мене ма е, горо-ле сестро, мама оженила, мама оженила, горо-ле сестро, за лудо-младо либе (...) твойте листи, горо-ле сестро, пак щът да покарат, мойта младост, горо-ле сестро не ще се повърне.
Can we now fix the article without editors like Laveol and Titikaka1 claiming it's a Bulgarian folk song? -- Hegumen ( talk) 10:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm only speculating, but I'd say he either didn't know the actual title of the poem or that it was colloquially referred to as that by people back then (the latter is least likely in my opinion). Either way, there's no poem by Karavelov called "Cernej goro" whether Sarievski referrer to one by that name or not. -- Hegumen ( talk) 03:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but I can`t let you spreading propaganda.The song isn`t Macedonian(from the historical-geographic area of Macedonia) but Rhodopian(from the Rhoropi mountains).I`m not even gonna waste my time explaining why the song can`t be from the region of Vardar Macedonia because everyone who is aware of the local folklore rhythms knows what I`m talking about.
The song originates from the Rhodopes, consequently it`s Bulgarian.It can`t be considered as Macedonian only because some composer got paid by the Jugoslav communists to change 10% of the text in order to create Macedonian "folklore". -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 19:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Why don't we just fully protect the page? It seems the last 50 edits consist of vandalism and me/Hegumen/Future/bot reverting it. Balkan Fever 02:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The melody "of Sarievski" isn`t simply similar to the origianl Bulgarian melody but utterly the same.The fact that he says that was only slightly influenced means totally nothing.He might had stated whatever he wanted but this doesn`t change the fact that the song is stolen and what he did is called plagiarism everywhere, no?.Furthermore the author of the soundtrack of '300'(from where started the dispute for the origin of the song) said that he used the Bulgarian folklore song "Zajdi, zajdi" and just changed the text with some artificial language. Now I`ll post the Bulgarian text of Karavelov which dates back to 1878:
Зайди, зайди ясно слънце, зайди, помрачи се, и ти ясна месечинко, зайди, удави се!
Плачи, горо, плачи, сестро, двете да заплачем - ти за твойте листя, горо, аз за мойта младост.
Твойте листя, горо, сестро, пак ще се завърнат, мойта младост, горо ле сестро, няма да се върне!
Transliteration: Zajdi, zajdi jasno slance, zajdi, pomrachi se, i ti jasna mesechino, zajdi, udavi se!
Plachi, goro, plachi sestro, dvete da zaplachem - ti za tvoite listja, goro, az za mojta mladost.
Tvoite listja, goro, pak shte se zavarnat, mojta mladost, goro le sestro, njama da se varne.
The performance of the original(Bulgarian) version of the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP-c_-lxus
Macedonian version of Sarievski(transliteration):
Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce, zajdi pomraci se, i ti jasna le mesechino, zajdi udavi se!
Crnej, goro, crnej sestro, dvajca da crnejme - ti za tvoite lisja le goro, jas za mojta mladost.
Tvojte lisja, goro sestro, pak ke ti se vratat , mojta mladost goro le sestro, nema da se vrati.
The performance of Sarievski(in Macedonian): http://youtube.com/watch?v=jqMWYahVEc8
You can clearly hear how he sings "SLANCE"(literary Bulgarian) instead of "SONCE"(Macedonian).If he had written the song himself, he would use the standard form in codified Macedonian, not the Bulgarian one.And pay attention to the melody- there is absolutely no difference which proves that Sarievski`s statement contains lies. When I`ve time I`ll edit the page giving source to every single statement, including the interview of the composer of "300", who says that the song is Bulgarian and will remove all untrue facts about the history of the song.If you keep reverting the propaganda article I`ll be forced to contact the admins. -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 16:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Since many of the interested parties are around here, I would kindly request some reliable sources regarding this 300 Soundtrack sensation (some might even say brouhaha). Mind you I have already seen the piece (with all that Uber-elite youtube references) circulated in the early days by "RealityMacedonia.org.mk" (R.I.P. - BTW has anyone even noticed, back then that the site was "hacked" i.e. defaced?) plus that one by On.net allegedly carrying a responce by Bates himself. None of the above justified, even remotely, the notion that we must take for granted that this song was the inspiration of that song, that the composer committed plagiarism and all that, well, brouhaha. What exactly is this Valentina Gjorgievska talking about for us poor souls who can not read Cyrillic? What exactly is the status of her online publisher? -- 157.228.x.x ( talk) 17:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the link to the Bulgarian article should be removed... it seems as though it's about a different song. -- Hegumen ( talk) 12:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps every link to the Bulgarian history of your ancestors should be removed to! Jingby ( talk) 13:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Appears notable--
Other potential sourcing--
How is someone like Tyler Bates possibly an authority who needs to be referred to in a Wikipedia article on a topic like this? I hope there's an answer, and the appropriate edit. Drmies ( talk) 02:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there one available? Dloh cierekim 03:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
When did Sarievski first write (or create, publish, whatever) his version? Sources? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The both authors have used the word "Slănce" (for Sun) not "Sonce". Please, listen here Song as originally performed by the late Aleksandar Sarievski and please, see here: Karavelov, НОВА ПЕСНОПОЙКА, online edition Jingby ( talk) 11:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
If Raso does not give clear motivation for his revert to Sonce, despite the original texts, I will revert the title to the both authors variant. Jingby ( talk) 11:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Jingby ( talk) 06:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Can somebody check out this interesting page (from this guy's website])? He lists not one but four different songs all starting with "zajdi zajdi jasno s..?nce" (and incidentally three different dialect spellings of the s..?nce word). The third of those [1] is "our" song, both in terms of the rest of the text and in terms of the melody (checking against the Sarievski performance on youtube [2]). It's sourced there to a 1995 anthology of "Macedonian national folk songs", without mentioning either Sarievski or Karavelov. The other two songs are totally different except for the text incipit; as far as I can make sense of the references they seem to be from some authentic folklore collections.
This would imply that the "zajdi zajdi" line (which is not found in the Karavelov texts) is yet another folklore stereotype that was floating around and taken up by Sarievski. Nothing surprising, of course, given the reliance on such stereotyped phrases characteristic of traditional SE European oral poetry in general. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
More again: Българска народна поезия и проза в седем тома. Т. V. Любовни песни. Съставителство Милена Беновска-Събкова. София, 1982 - Source Монтана, старо Фердинанд (Стоин-ТВ, № 1886). [5] Jingby ( talk) 09:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
There are now several Bg-language articles quoted that seem to deal with the provenance of Sarievski's melody (as opposed to the texts), but their contents aren't summarised well - and I can't read them. Do those articles contain any concrete information about exactly how similar Sarievski's melody is to traditional models, and where and how those are attested? Are they attested together with any of the actual texts we were discussing, or some other texts? We should be treating these things without reference to such a silly national dichotomy, simply pointing out what comes from where. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Guys, isn't the wording and linking of "a popular Macedonian folk song" a bit deceptive? First, I didn't check where the folk link points to and was keen to add Bulgarian with a language link next to Macedonian, but then I saw where "folk" links. Still, I believe it's not the best wording we can have, and certainly a bit POV-ish even if probably unconsciously. The usage of "folk song" implies that it's part of the Macedonian folklore tradition, which it isn't: apparently, in this version at least, it has an author and that is Sarievski. And if it implies that it's part of the Macedonian folklore tradition and no the Bulgarian one, then it's misleading, because the actual folk song is part of the traditions of both (now, whether they're two separate traditions is another thing, you know my opinion and I stand by it).
Enough talking. How about:
I know it's a bit lengthier, but we can't afford to lose clarity for the sake of conciseness. Please note the links and tell me whether it's all fine. I'd like to see if there's any opposition to that wording before introducing it, the article has seen some controversy and I don't want to be called ethnic slurs just because of being bold ;) Todor → Bozhinov 22:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a folk song from a wider area where Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia meet and is a folk song of Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians who live there. Even the local dialects of Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian language there are similar. This is not uncommon as many folk songs are often shared between many nations (e.g. Misirlou between Greeks and Turks), especially when Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgars are Slavic peoples of same religion with strikingly similar language and culture and common history of enslavement under Turkish Empire that lasted for centuries. I think this article needs to be corrected as it appears that this song is a national one, with national disputes of claiming it, while in fact it is a local Balkan song shared between Bulgars, Macedonians and Serbs and part of culture and heritage of all three Slavic nations. 79.101.194.22 ( talk) 16:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
If it is a "Macedonian-language song" then why translate its name into other languages? If there is a scholarly dispute regarding its origin, why say it's based on Bulgarian folklore? -- 58.7.224.194 ( talk) 07:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, there is a scholary dispute and you have delete it. Jingby ( talk) 15:55, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
No, we describe any dispute not take their side (POV). Stating a definitive origin for the song is original research (The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources. It also refers to any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources.). Please also familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term ' stable version'. -- 124.169.72.149 ( talk) 22:09, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
We have a source, but not OR here. The author himself, described his song as based on the text of "Cherney goro, cherney sestro". Such a song is in the Bulgarian folk-song's collection of Karavelov. Bulgarian Academician and Professor are cited in the article with nearly the same opinion. The case was many time discussed here. Your opinion is OR and POV. Jingby ( talk) 06:14, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
The answer to all of the above is 'no'. Until you can source those controversial claims, they cannot be present in a Wikipedia article. -- 124.150.40.224 ( talk) 09:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Sources for Bulgarian folk-songs named "Zajdi, zajdi, jasno slance":
1. Source: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences.
2. Source: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences.
3. Source: Russian Academy of Sciences.
Stop vandalizing, edit-warring and POV-ing this article, please! Jingby ( talk) 17:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I disagree with removing the important facts about the song's origin from the intro and replacing them with some vague text that minimizes the origin to what you believe to be a "scholarly dispute" (as I said above, both scholars agree that the song originated in Bulgaria). The song is evidently based on Bulgarian folklore and this has to be made clear in the intro. Due to this, and because the song is popular in Bulgaria and regularly sung by Bulgarian folk singers (see External links), the Bulgarian rendition of the song's name is relevant and belongs to the intro as well. I'm requesting a third opinion. — Toдor Boжinov — 18:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you Bozhinov, because of provided sources - primary and secondary, wich support your thesis. Jingby ( talk) 18:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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Per Todor's references, and also per this and this, it appears that the song does indeed have Bulgarian roots and that Aleksandar Sarievski wrote the current version. Your claims of "scholarly dispute" appear to be original research, and must have a source. (And tacking a {{ citation needed}} tag on does not count.)— Reaper Eternal ( talk) 19:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC) |
Response to response to third opinion request
-- 124.150.50.216 ( talk) 23:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
While I don't object to the inclusion of this claim, it cannot be sourced. -- 124.150.50.216 ( talk) 23:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
IP-sock, your qestion was: Can you source a Bulgarian-language song called Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце which is not a derivative of Zajdi, zajdi? I have provided three different sources, with different texts, buth with the same title. You have another sources with texts nearly identical with Sarievski's variante, but from 19-th century Bulgarian folk-song collection. What do you want now? Jingby ( talk) 06:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
People, please.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a song Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце, from the collection "Народни песни от Тимок до Вита (1928)" of Prof. Васил Стоин The text you can see here: [7]. The song is from Montana, Bulgaria area. Regs. Jingby ( talk) 12:13, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Very briefly I'd like to respond to some of your points, Fut.Perf.
-- 124.169.187.108 ( talk) 15:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
The connection to Karavelov is not unsourced, but rather OR (what the policy page calls a 'synthesis'). The news article says "this formula was [also] used by Karavelov", the second instance says it (the formula) did not begin with Karavelov. I'm having some trouble interpreting the third instance. Re (1), Sarievski himself states otherwise. In my opinion, it's even more likely that Černej, goro could be what you describe in (3). See how frustratingly impossible it is to prove any of that? Kaufman might actually not be so reliable anyway (he states, "they actually took a lot of songs from us, because at that time they (Macedonians) were Bulgarians"). As you're well aware, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (for which Kaufman works) does not acknowledge the legitimacy of a Macedonian ethnicity or language. Despite that (I think it's irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned), I would probably argue for its inclusion. -- 124.169.187.108 ( talk) 15:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
And here are some more Zajdis: [10] ( Bujanovac, southern Serbia), [11] (Russia), [12] (Russia), [13] (Bulgaria), [14] (Bulgaria) and [15] (Bulgaria, "Зайди, зайди, мое ясно слънце; огрей, огрей, ясно месечинко"). The Russian songs have a different meaning (here zajdi means 'to come'), but have a few similarities with the Balkan Zajdis. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 07:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Here are some Macedonian folk songs which are incredibly similar to Sarievski's Zajdi: Жали горо, црни сестро, Црнеј горо, црнеј сестро — which melodies similar to each other but different to Sarievski's Zajdi. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 08:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
...and their melodies are identical to the Karavelov song Хубава си, моя горо and Serbian song Tisina nema vlada svud. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 08:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Those songs were somewhat popular many decades ago in the starogradska muzika scene — there are several renditions, some of which I think are on YouTube. Yes, I've also seen that link. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 09:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
70.130.144.54 appears to be edit warring with multiple editors including Futur perfect at sunrise, an administrator can the IP stop and discuss here please-- Lerdthenerd wiki defender 10:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This is a strange case. There seems to be a good-faith content disagreement somewhere in there, although I don't agree with the IP on it (just because it's popular music doesn't mean he couldn't have "written and composed" the song rather than "recording" it). But then there's the bit where the IP has been copying in those random chunks from some old disambiguation content from Macedonia. What on earth is that supposed to do here? [17] Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Can we get the IP blocked and the previous version restored? Simple as that. Why are we restoring "In recent times it has gained popularity throughout the Balkans, and in the past sixty years it has become one of the songs the people of the former Yugoslavia most often associate with the Republic of Macedonia." without a citation needed tag? This is full of weasel words... — Toдor Boжinov — 11:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I had to revert him again, he just doesn't seem to get 'use the talk page' -- Lerdthenerd wiki defender 12:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
A new blind revert without any explaination is going on. Jingby ( talk)
Song Zajdi zajdi sonce, please don't revert my edits to this songs history, couse claims that Aleksandar Sarievski(1922-2002) composed it are [false]!!!!!! Aleksandar was Macedonian traditional music - folk singer and thats it, he was not composer nor song writer and { Zajdi zajdi song } is ancient and at least 500 years old. Im guessing Mr. Sarievski lived 500+ years Please don't make Macedonian history based on lies and fiction. I lived in SFRJ long enough to know its history. I own huge Yugoslavia Music library 78,33,45rpm Vinyl Audio Cassette Reel to Reel CD ....-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 11:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Aleksandar Sarievski(1922-2002) was only Folk song singer and he can't compose or write something that is 500 years old {absurd}. This is Macedonia root song, just like Chinese, Black American, Indian, Egypt etc. Root Song/folk song and it belongs to the people and not to Mr. Sarievski. Composer and writer is unknown.-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 11:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Please give solid prof that Aleksandar Sarievski composed and wrote this song, you can't because musical score/arrangements for this song made Orchestra of Radio Television Serbia (former Yugoslavia) back in 1950's based on version played, sung on weddings, taverns, street...etc. song is tranfered from generation to genaration-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 13:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately I can't enter Jugodisk archive and find vinyl record biscuit to prove my thesis - by this I mean who wrote music for this song and who adopted text in 1950's Members: Future perfect at sunrise, Jingiby and Todor Bozinov have no proof at all that Aleksandar Sarievski composed or wrote this song, your claim is taken from newspaper. - You can't show that he ever published any of his "compositions, songs or writings" No such evidence can be found !-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 12:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
These are not my personal claims and opinions these are facts changed (2002) due to new born Macedonia fictional history-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 14:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This is not a forum, but encyclopedia and we nead a relaible sources, but not your personal opinion. Jingby ( talk) 14:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
You are right about forum, it is not but you guys are making one here! Again This is not my personal opinion about Composer and writer of this song reffer to Jugodisc Company history - Aleksandar Sarievski was assigned to this Label as folk singer not as composer or writer of traditional Macedonian songs.On You Tube you can find him singing different traditional Macedonian songs for Jugodisc in 1950's. Please read Record labels while you listening to Aleksandar Sarievski-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 14:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
You Tube is not a reliable source. Jingby ( talk) 14:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
The article is written extremely from the point of view of Republic of Macedonia - there is not a single sentence that the song is considered as Bulgarian folklore. In other words - the other point of view is absolutely ignored - moreover has been deleted-- Алиса Селезньова ( talk) 11:07, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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+ Comparison of the modern text and original poems ! Modern text
! Text of the original verses by Lyuben Karavelov ! Source Ilievst ( talk) 21:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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Change link "Video of the song performed by Bulgarian singer Iva Davidova" from " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5WIXnYkWTY" to " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxI-DYTHKMo"
Change link "Bulgarian singer Nikolina Chakardakova – Zajdi, zajdi..." from " http://www.vtap.com/video/Nikolina+Chakardakova+-+Zajdi%252C+zajdi+jasno+sonce/CL0159568881_707c94852_V0lLSTEzMTM0OTUz" to " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1J_zq3yDac" Vilovka ( talk) 17:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
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The song has a bulgarian origin, but it's known to be part also from Serbian, Bosnian and Macedonian culture. The contemporary text is written by and included in the book of Luben Karavelov "Nova Pesnopoika" in 1878. The language of the song is Bulgarian! 2A00:20:1017:2A52:901E:65AA:AEE0:CD29 ( talk) 13:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Someone has to fix the grammar and typos. Aside all of the disputes and other BS. It's not "Zajdi, zajdi, jasno sonce", it's "Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce". Then it's not "Černej, goro, černej, sestro", it's "Černej goro, černej sestro". Cm'on folks, would you write "black, mountain, black, sister"? Also it should be "Žali goro, crni sestro". Would you write it as "Eine, kleine, Nacht,musik"? Or "Also, sprach, Zarathustra"? "Ride, of, the, Valkyries" much?
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Зајди, зајди јасно сонце
зајди помрачи се
и ти јасна ле месечино
бегај удави се.
Црнеј горо, црнеј сестро
двата да црнејме
ти за твојте лисја ле горо
јас за мојта младост.
Твојте лисја горо сестро
пак ќе ти се вратат
а мојата младост ле горо
нема да се врати. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jingiby (
talk •
contribs)
17:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Чия е “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце”?
Страстите около песента "Message for the Queen" в саундтрака към хитовия американски филм “300” преминаха фазата на национализма. Седмици наред българи, македонци и сърби спориха чия е песента, послужила за основа на разтърсващата мелодия. Край на спора сложи композиторът Тейлър Бейтс, който призна, че песента, изпята от иранката Азам Али, е заимствана от българската "Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SQPQemLmO0&mode=related&search=
Според акад. Николай Кауфман “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце” категорично е българска. “Още преди Освобождението на тази основа се пеят няколко градски песни, обаче преди тях се пее една народна: “Булка върви, булка върви из гора зелена. Като върви, като върви жално плаче” и т. н. Този мотив се ползва от Любен Каравелов и той прави своята знаменита песен, която става едва ли не като химн навремето. Това си е една чисто българска песен”, каза академикът пред “Политика”. Според него македонците, които също се удариха в гърдите по повод на филма “300”, нямат основание да го правят. “Те действително са вземали много песни от нас, защото са били по това време българи, каквито сме и ние. Така че ако претендират за тая песен, нямат никакво основание, тъй като се знае откъде идва тя и къде отива”, категоричен е Николай Кауфман. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP-c_-lxus&mode=related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OLWFjMy3nw&mode=related&search=
Според друг виден фолклорист – проф. Георг Краев, “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце” е балканска кръчмарска песен. “Има я поне в няколко песнопойки, без да се знае, че текстът е на Любен Каравелов, но тя е балканска, доколкото България е гнездото, откъдето се разпространяват тези песни”, каза пред “Политика” професорът. Той е по-либерален и към претенциите на македонците: “Те така да се каже имат известно право. Важното е, че песента се пее. Не виждам защо такива псевдонационалистически страсти се разиграват”. И настоява на своето: “Напротив – това е началото на шлагерната музика – музиката, която се запява от всички и която влиза в кръчмите.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqMWYahVEc8&mode=related&search=
“Нямам никакъв спор с проф. Краев. Смятам само, че той не е прав, като твърди, че странджанският химн “Ясен месец веч изгрява” е на същата основа. Неговата мелодия няма нищо общо с тази. “Зайди, зайди” си е мелодия, която си е закована от една страна от песента с текста на Любен Каравелов, а още преди това – с народната песен “Булка върви”, смята акад. Кауфман.
Tyler Bates - The composer of the movie "300" responding to Macedonian claims:
"As the composer of the music titled 'Message For The Queen', I would like to make it clear that while the introduction expresses the woodwind melody present in many recorded versions of the song "Zajdi, Zajdi Jasno Slance", this music is equally based on Bulgarian traditional folk music."
First lyric record of the song was published in Turnovo (Bulgaria) by Ljuben Karavelov in 1878.
Nice, but provide the source for this claims -- Laveol T 15:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you please source the usage of the song before claiming it entirely as originating from the Republic of Macedonia. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I was just about to work out how many of the participants in the latest edit war I'd be going to block (fingers were itching, I can tell you), when I noticed Jingiby's most recent Solomonic edits may have resolved the dispute. Is that so? So, the upshot is it's not a folksong at all but an authored, modern song by a Macedonian guy based on a more traditional folk song from Bulgaria. Now, that's nice.
Only problem I have now is, if that's the case then the lyrics are probably copyrighted and need to be deleted from the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Suit yourself... That song is Macedonian. Even the Gypsies (no offense!) in Vranje sing it bowing to its Macedonian origin. Nevertheless, such a small people as are we Macedonians cannot outvoice all those that stand against us. And, be said, that the lyrics of a folk song are not copyrighted, so please put them back, at least they are in plain Macedonian. Oh, yes, how is it that, everything we have, even a song, is always genuine Bulgarian? Why isn't it (at least once!) Serbian? Or Greek? Or Turkish? Or Albanian? Or Vlach? It's always Bulgarian. But let it be... They don't even have a song to be proud to... Except, maybe, Ратка пиратка, if one can be proud of that... Filipgd 22:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The user Titikaka1 has removed sourced material and all references to Aleksandar Sarievski. Please discuss changes on this talk page before making such huge changes. -- Hegumen ( talk) 15:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The song is not a song from Sarievski, this is folk song. Please remove the infos about Sarievski! -- Titikaka1 (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
So what is the relation between these two songs? The text seems to be quite different, if the opening words are anything to go by (even I with my non-existent knowledge of you language(s) can see that), and the article says that the melody is "completely different" too? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
At the moment the article is a somewhat contradictory. The introduction states it's a Macedonian and Bulgarian song while the follow up section says it was written and composed by Sarievski. -- Hegumen ( talk) 06:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think there should be a Cernej goro article because, as far as I can tell, there is no such song. It appears that he loosely based Zajdi, zajdi on a small section from an obscure poem written/collected by Lyuben Karavelov (?):
Сбирайте са, моми, булки, и млади ергене! Да чуете барем една песен и от мене. Събрахте са. Знайте сега, че моята песен не весели младо сърдце, мерише на плесен. Слънце ярко, слънце светло, зайди, помрачи са; а ти, ясна месечинко, бягай, удави са! Не светете на турските кръвави тирани, които са телата ни покриле със рани (...)
and on a few lines from another poem by Karavelov titled Bulka varvi iz gora zelena which Sarievski calls "Cernej goro":
Булка върви, булка върви през гора зелена, като върви, като върви, жално-милно плаче, жално-милно плаче, джанам, плаче и нарежда: Черней, горо, черней, сестро, двама да чернейме, ти за твойте листи, горо, аз за първо либе. Тебе та е, горо-ле сестро, слана осланила, мене ма е, горо-ле сестро, мама оженила, мама оженила, горо-ле сестро, за лудо-младо либе (...) твойте листи, горо-ле сестро, пак щът да покарат, мойта младост, горо-ле сестро не ще се повърне.
Can we now fix the article without editors like Laveol and Titikaka1 claiming it's a Bulgarian folk song? -- Hegumen ( talk) 10:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm only speculating, but I'd say he either didn't know the actual title of the poem or that it was colloquially referred to as that by people back then (the latter is least likely in my opinion). Either way, there's no poem by Karavelov called "Cernej goro" whether Sarievski referrer to one by that name or not. -- Hegumen ( talk) 03:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but I can`t let you spreading propaganda.The song isn`t Macedonian(from the historical-geographic area of Macedonia) but Rhodopian(from the Rhoropi mountains).I`m not even gonna waste my time explaining why the song can`t be from the region of Vardar Macedonia because everyone who is aware of the local folklore rhythms knows what I`m talking about.
The song originates from the Rhodopes, consequently it`s Bulgarian.It can`t be considered as Macedonian only because some composer got paid by the Jugoslav communists to change 10% of the text in order to create Macedonian "folklore". -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 19:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Why don't we just fully protect the page? It seems the last 50 edits consist of vandalism and me/Hegumen/Future/bot reverting it. Balkan Fever 02:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The melody "of Sarievski" isn`t simply similar to the origianl Bulgarian melody but utterly the same.The fact that he says that was only slightly influenced means totally nothing.He might had stated whatever he wanted but this doesn`t change the fact that the song is stolen and what he did is called plagiarism everywhere, no?.Furthermore the author of the soundtrack of '300'(from where started the dispute for the origin of the song) said that he used the Bulgarian folklore song "Zajdi, zajdi" and just changed the text with some artificial language. Now I`ll post the Bulgarian text of Karavelov which dates back to 1878:
Зайди, зайди ясно слънце, зайди, помрачи се, и ти ясна месечинко, зайди, удави се!
Плачи, горо, плачи, сестро, двете да заплачем - ти за твойте листя, горо, аз за мойта младост.
Твойте листя, горо, сестро, пак ще се завърнат, мойта младост, горо ле сестро, няма да се върне!
Transliteration: Zajdi, zajdi jasno slance, zajdi, pomrachi se, i ti jasna mesechino, zajdi, udavi se!
Plachi, goro, plachi sestro, dvete da zaplachem - ti za tvoite listja, goro, az za mojta mladost.
Tvoite listja, goro, pak shte se zavarnat, mojta mladost, goro le sestro, njama da se varne.
The performance of the original(Bulgarian) version of the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP-c_-lxus
Macedonian version of Sarievski(transliteration):
Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce, zajdi pomraci se, i ti jasna le mesechino, zajdi udavi se!
Crnej, goro, crnej sestro, dvajca da crnejme - ti za tvoite lisja le goro, jas za mojta mladost.
Tvojte lisja, goro sestro, pak ke ti se vratat , mojta mladost goro le sestro, nema da se vrati.
The performance of Sarievski(in Macedonian): http://youtube.com/watch?v=jqMWYahVEc8
You can clearly hear how he sings "SLANCE"(literary Bulgarian) instead of "SONCE"(Macedonian).If he had written the song himself, he would use the standard form in codified Macedonian, not the Bulgarian one.And pay attention to the melody- there is absolutely no difference which proves that Sarievski`s statement contains lies. When I`ve time I`ll edit the page giving source to every single statement, including the interview of the composer of "300", who says that the song is Bulgarian and will remove all untrue facts about the history of the song.If you keep reverting the propaganda article I`ll be forced to contact the admins. -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 16:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Since many of the interested parties are around here, I would kindly request some reliable sources regarding this 300 Soundtrack sensation (some might even say brouhaha). Mind you I have already seen the piece (with all that Uber-elite youtube references) circulated in the early days by "RealityMacedonia.org.mk" (R.I.P. - BTW has anyone even noticed, back then that the site was "hacked" i.e. defaced?) plus that one by On.net allegedly carrying a responce by Bates himself. None of the above justified, even remotely, the notion that we must take for granted that this song was the inspiration of that song, that the composer committed plagiarism and all that, well, brouhaha. What exactly is this Valentina Gjorgievska talking about for us poor souls who can not read Cyrillic? What exactly is the status of her online publisher? -- 157.228.x.x ( talk) 17:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the link to the Bulgarian article should be removed... it seems as though it's about a different song. -- Hegumen ( talk) 12:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps every link to the Bulgarian history of your ancestors should be removed to! Jingby ( talk) 13:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Appears notable--
Other potential sourcing--
How is someone like Tyler Bates possibly an authority who needs to be referred to in a Wikipedia article on a topic like this? I hope there's an answer, and the appropriate edit. Drmies ( talk) 02:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there one available? Dloh cierekim 03:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
When did Sarievski first write (or create, publish, whatever) his version? Sources? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The both authors have used the word "Slănce" (for Sun) not "Sonce". Please, listen here Song as originally performed by the late Aleksandar Sarievski and please, see here: Karavelov, НОВА ПЕСНОПОЙКА, online edition Jingby ( talk) 11:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
If Raso does not give clear motivation for his revert to Sonce, despite the original texts, I will revert the title to the both authors variant. Jingby ( talk) 11:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Jingby ( talk) 06:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Can somebody check out this interesting page (from this guy's website])? He lists not one but four different songs all starting with "zajdi zajdi jasno s..?nce" (and incidentally three different dialect spellings of the s..?nce word). The third of those [1] is "our" song, both in terms of the rest of the text and in terms of the melody (checking against the Sarievski performance on youtube [2]). It's sourced there to a 1995 anthology of "Macedonian national folk songs", without mentioning either Sarievski or Karavelov. The other two songs are totally different except for the text incipit; as far as I can make sense of the references they seem to be from some authentic folklore collections.
This would imply that the "zajdi zajdi" line (which is not found in the Karavelov texts) is yet another folklore stereotype that was floating around and taken up by Sarievski. Nothing surprising, of course, given the reliance on such stereotyped phrases characteristic of traditional SE European oral poetry in general. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
More again: Българска народна поезия и проза в седем тома. Т. V. Любовни песни. Съставителство Милена Беновска-Събкова. София, 1982 - Source Монтана, старо Фердинанд (Стоин-ТВ, № 1886). [5] Jingby ( talk) 09:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
There are now several Bg-language articles quoted that seem to deal with the provenance of Sarievski's melody (as opposed to the texts), but their contents aren't summarised well - and I can't read them. Do those articles contain any concrete information about exactly how similar Sarievski's melody is to traditional models, and where and how those are attested? Are they attested together with any of the actual texts we were discussing, or some other texts? We should be treating these things without reference to such a silly national dichotomy, simply pointing out what comes from where. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Guys, isn't the wording and linking of "a popular Macedonian folk song" a bit deceptive? First, I didn't check where the folk link points to and was keen to add Bulgarian with a language link next to Macedonian, but then I saw where "folk" links. Still, I believe it's not the best wording we can have, and certainly a bit POV-ish even if probably unconsciously. The usage of "folk song" implies that it's part of the Macedonian folklore tradition, which it isn't: apparently, in this version at least, it has an author and that is Sarievski. And if it implies that it's part of the Macedonian folklore tradition and no the Bulgarian one, then it's misleading, because the actual folk song is part of the traditions of both (now, whether they're two separate traditions is another thing, you know my opinion and I stand by it).
Enough talking. How about:
I know it's a bit lengthier, but we can't afford to lose clarity for the sake of conciseness. Please note the links and tell me whether it's all fine. I'd like to see if there's any opposition to that wording before introducing it, the article has seen some controversy and I don't want to be called ethnic slurs just because of being bold ;) Todor → Bozhinov 22:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a folk song from a wider area where Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia meet and is a folk song of Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians who live there. Even the local dialects of Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian language there are similar. This is not uncommon as many folk songs are often shared between many nations (e.g. Misirlou between Greeks and Turks), especially when Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgars are Slavic peoples of same religion with strikingly similar language and culture and common history of enslavement under Turkish Empire that lasted for centuries. I think this article needs to be corrected as it appears that this song is a national one, with national disputes of claiming it, while in fact it is a local Balkan song shared between Bulgars, Macedonians and Serbs and part of culture and heritage of all three Slavic nations. 79.101.194.22 ( talk) 16:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
If it is a "Macedonian-language song" then why translate its name into other languages? If there is a scholarly dispute regarding its origin, why say it's based on Bulgarian folklore? -- 58.7.224.194 ( talk) 07:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, there is a scholary dispute and you have delete it. Jingby ( talk) 15:55, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
No, we describe any dispute not take their side (POV). Stating a definitive origin for the song is original research (The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources. It also refers to any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources.). Please also familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term ' stable version'. -- 124.169.72.149 ( talk) 22:09, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
We have a source, but not OR here. The author himself, described his song as based on the text of "Cherney goro, cherney sestro". Such a song is in the Bulgarian folk-song's collection of Karavelov. Bulgarian Academician and Professor are cited in the article with nearly the same opinion. The case was many time discussed here. Your opinion is OR and POV. Jingby ( talk) 06:14, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
The answer to all of the above is 'no'. Until you can source those controversial claims, they cannot be present in a Wikipedia article. -- 124.150.40.224 ( talk) 09:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Sources for Bulgarian folk-songs named "Zajdi, zajdi, jasno slance":
1. Source: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences.
2. Source: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences.
3. Source: Russian Academy of Sciences.
Stop vandalizing, edit-warring and POV-ing this article, please! Jingby ( talk) 17:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I disagree with removing the important facts about the song's origin from the intro and replacing them with some vague text that minimizes the origin to what you believe to be a "scholarly dispute" (as I said above, both scholars agree that the song originated in Bulgaria). The song is evidently based on Bulgarian folklore and this has to be made clear in the intro. Due to this, and because the song is popular in Bulgaria and regularly sung by Bulgarian folk singers (see External links), the Bulgarian rendition of the song's name is relevant and belongs to the intro as well. I'm requesting a third opinion. — Toдor Boжinov — 18:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you Bozhinov, because of provided sources - primary and secondary, wich support your thesis. Jingby ( talk) 18:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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Per Todor's references, and also per this and this, it appears that the song does indeed have Bulgarian roots and that Aleksandar Sarievski wrote the current version. Your claims of "scholarly dispute" appear to be original research, and must have a source. (And tacking a {{ citation needed}} tag on does not count.)— Reaper Eternal ( talk) 19:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC) |
Response to response to third opinion request
-- 124.150.50.216 ( talk) 23:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
While I don't object to the inclusion of this claim, it cannot be sourced. -- 124.150.50.216 ( talk) 23:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
IP-sock, your qestion was: Can you source a Bulgarian-language song called Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце which is not a derivative of Zajdi, zajdi? I have provided three different sources, with different texts, buth with the same title. You have another sources with texts nearly identical with Sarievski's variante, but from 19-th century Bulgarian folk-song collection. What do you want now? Jingby ( talk) 06:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
People, please.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a song Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце, from the collection "Народни песни от Тимок до Вита (1928)" of Prof. Васил Стоин The text you can see here: [7]. The song is from Montana, Bulgaria area. Regs. Jingby ( talk) 12:13, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Very briefly I'd like to respond to some of your points, Fut.Perf.
-- 124.169.187.108 ( talk) 15:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
The connection to Karavelov is not unsourced, but rather OR (what the policy page calls a 'synthesis'). The news article says "this formula was [also] used by Karavelov", the second instance says it (the formula) did not begin with Karavelov. I'm having some trouble interpreting the third instance. Re (1), Sarievski himself states otherwise. In my opinion, it's even more likely that Černej, goro could be what you describe in (3). See how frustratingly impossible it is to prove any of that? Kaufman might actually not be so reliable anyway (he states, "they actually took a lot of songs from us, because at that time they (Macedonians) were Bulgarians"). As you're well aware, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (for which Kaufman works) does not acknowledge the legitimacy of a Macedonian ethnicity or language. Despite that (I think it's irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned), I would probably argue for its inclusion. -- 124.169.187.108 ( talk) 15:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
And here are some more Zajdis: [10] ( Bujanovac, southern Serbia), [11] (Russia), [12] (Russia), [13] (Bulgaria), [14] (Bulgaria) and [15] (Bulgaria, "Зайди, зайди, мое ясно слънце; огрей, огрей, ясно месечинко"). The Russian songs have a different meaning (here zajdi means 'to come'), but have a few similarities with the Balkan Zajdis. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 07:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Here are some Macedonian folk songs which are incredibly similar to Sarievski's Zajdi: Жали горо, црни сестро, Црнеј горо, црнеј сестро — which melodies similar to each other but different to Sarievski's Zajdi. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 08:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
...and their melodies are identical to the Karavelov song Хубава си, моя горо and Serbian song Tisina nema vlada svud. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 08:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Those songs were somewhat popular many decades ago in the starogradska muzika scene — there are several renditions, some of which I think are on YouTube. Yes, I've also seen that link. -- 58.7.246.43 ( talk) 09:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
70.130.144.54 appears to be edit warring with multiple editors including Futur perfect at sunrise, an administrator can the IP stop and discuss here please-- Lerdthenerd wiki defender 10:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This is a strange case. There seems to be a good-faith content disagreement somewhere in there, although I don't agree with the IP on it (just because it's popular music doesn't mean he couldn't have "written and composed" the song rather than "recording" it). But then there's the bit where the IP has been copying in those random chunks from some old disambiguation content from Macedonia. What on earth is that supposed to do here? [17] Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Can we get the IP blocked and the previous version restored? Simple as that. Why are we restoring "In recent times it has gained popularity throughout the Balkans, and in the past sixty years it has become one of the songs the people of the former Yugoslavia most often associate with the Republic of Macedonia." without a citation needed tag? This is full of weasel words... — Toдor Boжinov — 11:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I had to revert him again, he just doesn't seem to get 'use the talk page' -- Lerdthenerd wiki defender 12:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
A new blind revert without any explaination is going on. Jingby ( talk)
Song Zajdi zajdi sonce, please don't revert my edits to this songs history, couse claims that Aleksandar Sarievski(1922-2002) composed it are [false]!!!!!! Aleksandar was Macedonian traditional music - folk singer and thats it, he was not composer nor song writer and { Zajdi zajdi song } is ancient and at least 500 years old. Im guessing Mr. Sarievski lived 500+ years Please don't make Macedonian history based on lies and fiction. I lived in SFRJ long enough to know its history. I own huge Yugoslavia Music library 78,33,45rpm Vinyl Audio Cassette Reel to Reel CD ....-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 11:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Aleksandar Sarievski(1922-2002) was only Folk song singer and he can't compose or write something that is 500 years old {absurd}. This is Macedonia root song, just like Chinese, Black American, Indian, Egypt etc. Root Song/folk song and it belongs to the people and not to Mr. Sarievski. Composer and writer is unknown.-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 11:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Please give solid prof that Aleksandar Sarievski composed and wrote this song, you can't because musical score/arrangements for this song made Orchestra of Radio Television Serbia (former Yugoslavia) back in 1950's based on version played, sung on weddings, taverns, street...etc. song is tranfered from generation to genaration-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 13:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately I can't enter Jugodisk archive and find vinyl record biscuit to prove my thesis - by this I mean who wrote music for this song and who adopted text in 1950's Members: Future perfect at sunrise, Jingiby and Todor Bozinov have no proof at all that Aleksandar Sarievski composed or wrote this song, your claim is taken from newspaper. - You can't show that he ever published any of his "compositions, songs or writings" No such evidence can be found !-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 12:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
These are not my personal claims and opinions these are facts changed (2002) due to new born Macedonia fictional history-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 14:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This is not a forum, but encyclopedia and we nead a relaible sources, but not your personal opinion. Jingby ( talk) 14:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
You are right about forum, it is not but you guys are making one here! Again This is not my personal opinion about Composer and writer of this song reffer to Jugodisc Company history - Aleksandar Sarievski was assigned to this Label as folk singer not as composer or writer of traditional Macedonian songs.On You Tube you can find him singing different traditional Macedonian songs for Jugodisc in 1950's. Please read Record labels while you listening to Aleksandar Sarievski-- 70.130.144.54 ( talk) 14:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
You Tube is not a reliable source. Jingby ( talk) 14:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
The article is written extremely from the point of view of Republic of Macedonia - there is not a single sentence that the song is considered as Bulgarian folklore. In other words - the other point of view is absolutely ignored - moreover has been deleted-- Алиса Селезньова ( talk) 11:07, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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+ Comparison of the modern text and original poems ! Modern text
! Text of the original verses by Lyuben Karavelov ! Source Ilievst ( talk) 21:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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Change link "Video of the song performed by Bulgarian singer Iva Davidova" from " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5WIXnYkWTY" to " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxI-DYTHKMo"
Change link "Bulgarian singer Nikolina Chakardakova – Zajdi, zajdi..." from " http://www.vtap.com/video/Nikolina+Chakardakova+-+Zajdi%252C+zajdi+jasno+sonce/CL0159568881_707c94852_V0lLSTEzMTM0OTUz" to " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1J_zq3yDac" Vilovka ( talk) 17:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
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The song has a bulgarian origin, but it's known to be part also from Serbian, Bosnian and Macedonian culture. The contemporary text is written by and included in the book of Luben Karavelov "Nova Pesnopoika" in 1878. The language of the song is Bulgarian! 2A00:20:1017:2A52:901E:65AA:AEE0:CD29 ( talk) 13:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Someone has to fix the grammar and typos. Aside all of the disputes and other BS. It's not "Zajdi, zajdi, jasno sonce", it's "Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce". Then it's not "Černej, goro, černej, sestro", it's "Černej goro, černej sestro". Cm'on folks, would you write "black, mountain, black, sister"? Also it should be "Žali goro, crni sestro". Would you write it as "Eine, kleine, Nacht,musik"? Or "Also, sprach, Zarathustra"? "Ride, of, the, Valkyries" much?