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This article has been rated C-class. A C-class article is described as follows: The article is substantial, but is still missing important content or contains a lot of irrelevant material. The article should have some references to reliable sources, but may still have significant issues or require substantial cleanup. This article has only been assessed for the Eurovision project as I can not speak for its completeness in terms of other projects. Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 00:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
The previous version (as of october 5) see here: [10] contained an unsourced list of performers' ethnicity. I checked the available references in the article and I found no such information, if I missed something by mistake, I apologize and please point me to the right place. How should I know for example that Vlado Kalember is indeed an ethnic Montenegrin as it was written? I thought he's a Croat. Actually I dont know and it doesnt matter at all. At the "Jugovizija", the Yugoslav national ESC preselection, every national Radio-TV service from each of the Yugoslav federal units was sending 2 candidates each year (6 Yugoslav constituent republics, 2 provinces within Serbia, thats 8 stations X 2 songs= 16 per year). The ethnicity of the candidates not always corresponded with the ethnic majority of the federal unit which they represented. For example, Daniel (singer) was born in Montenegro but (as far as I remember, feel free to correct me) he was candidated from Croatia because he lived there or because they liked him, who cares. Or, a candidate from Bosnia and Herzegovina could be an ethnic Serb or Croat or Muslim by nationality or from a multhiethnic marriage or a group consisting of members of several ethnicities. Without having a sence for the complex ex-Yugoslav issues, you started a big problem by opening the "ethnicity" pandora box, hence I had to remove it and please dont put it back unless you have sources. Stop speculating. Btw an interesting website about national preselections, tho Im not sure it can be used as a reliable source: [11], check Yugoslavia -- Dzole ( talk) 14:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
An extensive archive for Jugovizija for each year: [12] The site belongs to Eurodalmatia, ESC fan club from from Dalmatia, Croatia. On the about us page its claimed that they are officialy registered ESC fan club recognized by OGAE, in close cooperation with other national ESC fan clubs. It lists not only Jugovizija participants but also the Radio-Television centers from each of the federal units (republics and autonomous provinces) that nominated them: RTV Ljubljana ( SR Slovenia), RTV Zagreb ( SR Croatia), RTV Sarajevo ( SR Bosnia and Herzegovina), RTV Titograd ( SR Montenegro), RTV Skopje ( SR Macedonia), RTV Beograd ( SR Serbia), RTV Novi Sad ( SAP Vojvodina) and RTV Priština ( SAP Kosovo). These RTV centers can be added instead of "ethnicity" in order to determine the originating federal unit of the song representing ex-YU on ESC.
Note that not all the centers participated from the very start in 1961. Perhaps not all of them had television yet, and also, Kosovo and Vojvodina gained more autonomy within Serbia with the constitutional changes in 1963 (see AP Kosovo and AP Vojvodina), and in 1974 (see SAP Kosovo and SAP Vojvodina), hence they became federal subjects. Also the number of songs nominated by each RTV center varied from year to year (sometimes 1, 2 or 3, making the total number of songs 8, 16, 20+ etc.). During several years in the 1980s it seems that it was standardized to 16 songs (2 per each of the 8 centers).
Example: Jugovizija 1983 (from the website)
Ranking/Title/ Artist/ RTV center/ Points
Conclusion: the Yugoslav ESC participant in 1983, Daniel, was nominated by TV Titograd from Montenegro, and that can be added to the article instead of his ethnicity.
-- Dzole ( talk) 16:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
If we're having the broadcasters in the table, wouldn't it make sense to include the Republic of the broadcaster it was based, especially for people who are not too knowledgable on Yugoslavia or Eurovision, or European georgraphy in general. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 21:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I tried to improve the article but there were editors who voluntarily changed it without objecting it on the talk page first as I did. Im not saying they are wrong, but still I will try to rewrite it again. Rationale provided here.-- Dzole ( talk) 01:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the official website just made a mistake because the actual performance showed the FR Yugoslavia flag. see here. Therefore, I feel that we should remove this sentence: However, currently, on the official ESC country specific page that entry is listed under the general designation Yugoslavia, but with the flag of SFR Yugoslavia. Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 03:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes. But this creates another issue: should the article be split into two separate articles?
IMHO- yes.
Yugoslavia is a complex issue.
Its not just the form of government that makes them different, they represent different concepts. State Union of Serbia and Montenegro is something completely different, so it definetly shouldnt be merged with any kind of Yugoslav article. These different things shouldnt be mixed unless you agree to recognize FRY as a legal succesor to SFRY which (as far as I know, correct me) the international community disapproved.
So back to ESC, there was:
The preselection took place in the shrunk and fading (formally) SFRY, but its winner clearly represented FRY, maybe the article should be split. Also, Eurodalmatia doesnt list Extra Nena in Yugovision. I dunno really, maybe two interlinked articles is a good solution with notes explaining the situation. -- Dzole ( talk) 04:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I didnt know about these issues and Im personally against merging SFRY with FRY, which is supported by Grk1011 (I dont know why?). I explained the timeline of the breakup of Yugoslavia in detail, and thats clear: Extra Nena on May 9th respresented FRY, not SFRY. After all GRk provided a youtube video himself /herself. This issue is not like: Kingdom of Greece and the Republic of Greece. SFRY and FRY is two completely different stories.
However I also disagree with some of Imbris' actions: those entries were submitted in the name of the RTV centers based in the each of the constituent units. Yes, they wanted to represent Yugoslavia on the ESC, no doubt about that, but Yugoslavia at the time was not an unitarian country. Are you trying to impose some sort of "Yugoslav" unitarism or what? How should I perceive your actions? It was a federative country of several constituent nations, each of them having the right to be credited for their achievments. The hard work of the rtv centers of its constituent units should be taken into consideration, as they left a legacy for the broadcasters of the independent states that emerged after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Please stop with voluntaristic actions right now and let be constructive. -- Dzole ( talk) 02:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. shortly saying: lets split it, this is going nowehere. -- Dzole ( talk) 03:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I checked Mediation Cabal FRY in ESC and now I understand what has been going on previously, and its not right. If you want to make a real encyclopedia, you must stick to the facts, not to "elect" a version that you (in this case a group of people) personally prefer. Its obvious that the opposing party, Imbris, was outnumbered, which doesnt automaticaly makes him wrong, though he didnt organized his "defence" well. I also believe that many of the non-Balkan "pro-merge" editors do not really understand the complexity of the Yugoslav case, which is very irresponsible. Also, I would like to ask the Greek editors involved in this case to assure me that they were neutral and unbiased, knowing that official Greece supported Serbia (dominant part of FRY) during the Yugoslav Wars.
I gathered several sources, and this is my opinion on the matter:
My conclusion: SFRY and FRY ESC pages should be split, as they represent two different countries. FRY unrightfully participated with a ex-SFRY ticket previously earned with 40 years of hard work by all the 8 federal units. FRY used the turmoil of the moment hence practically tricking the EBU.
-- Dzole ( talk) 18:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
First of all I am only half Greek, live in American and can't speak Greek. I know nothing about the political situation of Yugoslavia at the time of the competition and to be honest it really is not relevant. I feel like you ignored my explanation of the naming of the article. If it were named "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest" then we should expect to see "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" on the roster, but in fact only "Yugoslavia" is listed. Now the official site may be in error by listing the entry under the other flag, but the fact is that we need to write this article in terms of Eurovision, its subject. It is original research to take into account the situation of the country because that does not matter, what matters is that a Yugoslavian entry appeared for the last time in 1992. You can start the article off by saying that the name Yugoslavia was used to represent two different entities if you want, but you cannot split the article because that is not what happened at the contest. Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 19:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
And yes, you can say that was an original research of sort, however I refrained from actually chaning anything in the article before I represented it here.-- Dzole ( talk) 21:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
First, can you please give me more info on this book? Also, who's the author and what are his credentials and knowledge on Yugoslav matters? Does he or she referenced any sources? Not that Im sceptical but still.. Also, the sentence you are quoting is so confusing, it may be interpreted in 100 ways and may be partially wrong: I explained 5 times minimum that at the moment ESC took place, FRY was already established (constitution passed on Apr 27, ESC took place on May 9). What Yugoslavia the author is reffering to? SFRY or FRY? What "provinces" broke away? This is ridiculuous. The province of Vojvodina never broke away neither from SFRY nor from FRY, while Kosovo did, but in 1999 (from Serbia, the constituent country of FRY). Also, its true that an entity called Yugoslavia (whatever it may be), performed for a last time in the ESC in 1992. It can be interpreted as a)SFRY b)FRY, cause the former didn't take part anymore as it died, while the latter, was not allowed to participate anymore due to sanctions and/ or lack of EBU membership (granted in 2001). The sentence is a complete confusion.-- Dzole ( talk) 22:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the link. I see. Call me sarcastic but, Mr. John Kennedy O'Connor [15] [16] who became fascinated with the Eurovision Song Contest at the age of six and who writes books obviously belonging in the category of "Did you know that...?" is a more relevant "source" and more important scientific authority than the United Nations, EBU and all that? what is his knowledge on the Yugoslav matters and did he consult any reliable historical sources to write that ridiculuous statement that you innocently quoted above? When he says "Yugoslavia" - its said! What an authority! Grk, Im sorry for my saracasm. But really..
So, according to you, SFR Yugoslavia doesnt deserve its own article SFRY in the ESC separately of FRY, despite the fact that SFRY founded EBU, despite the fact that SFRY was participating in ESC for 40 yrs and despite the fact that it sent all its most eminent acts there: Tereza Kesovija, Zdravko Čolić, Novi Fosili, Korni Grupa, Kićo Slabinac, Ambasadori, Indexi, Srebrna Krila, Vice Vukov, Vajta etc. According to you, thats "not important", and that "does not deserve a separate article". However, that single entry performed by Extra Nena, an irrelevant turbofolk singer, who clearly represented another country- FRY, you insist that she deserves to be mentioned, and thats why we will quarell for months and Imbris will come again, and so on and so on. This is obnoxious, and I have no other ways to explain it to you except through irony. Im sorry I lost my temper, no personal offence to you or anyone, but this went TOO far -- Dzole ( talk) 23:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
ESC doesnt think that "it is the same Yugoslavia", ESC doesnt think at all, judging by its wrong yugo page, its "official history" filled with nonsence like the one you referenced before, and the folowing confusing info on their "official" website:
I worked my back off to explain you every >single< detail of the issue, but now it seems that you are the one who's intentionaly or unintentionaly ignoring it. -- Dzole ( talk) 14:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
So how it happened then? You dont provide any serious source, or at least a convincing rationale based on facts, like I did. Outside opinions based on personal taste mean nothing if they are not supported by facts. Yes, incl. dates. They are bloody important. In the case of ex-Yugoslavia, litteraly bloody. I also gave you a bunch of footnotes, pitty that you didn't read them. Filter-out my personal research, take the bare-bone facts and its clear. SFRY and FRY are two completely different countries, both de facto and in the eyes of the international law. There's absolutely no reason to put them in a same basket, unless you consider FRY a legal succesor to SFRY, which is wrong, but Im afraid you do. You suggest me to leave the page as it is a "walk away"? Is it your private property? Im trying to seek admin help, although judging by what happened with the previous " mediation", where you convinced the mediator with that obviously wrong eurovision.tv page, Im not an optimist. This is shocking. -- Dzole ( talk) 17:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
No. SFRY and FRY were different countries, de facto, de jure and according to the international law. FRY=/=SFRY. They must have different articles. They were both announced as "Yugoslavia" but that means nothing. ESC's roster is not higher authorty than the interantional law. I told you, what ESC refered to as Germany before 1990, was only West Germany, full name Federal Republic of Germany, while East Germany didnt participate. On the other hand, Republic of Macedonia is called "FRY Macedonia", well why not just Macedonia then, if West Germany could be just Germany and so on? You see its a complete mess, there's no consistency. Its an entertainment show (not a very intellectual one) you cant use them as serious a source. -- Dzole ( talk) 18:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC) p.s. another one: they say "Greece" for Greece. Following the "FYR Macedonia" example, they should call it the Hellenic Republic as it is the state's official name in the UN, but thats another story -- Dzole ( talk) 19:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes I do. Thats why we should make a separate article titled: Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest.-- Dzole ( talk) 21:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I dont bring politics. Politics come on their own when Yugoslavia is discussed. Unfortunatelly. Not only a country collapsed and new ones emerged, but people died, cities were burnt, and you want to solve this extremely sensitive issue by putting everything into one basket and wash your hands. Its a shame and its a lack of sence and responsibility. And for what? For the "cult musician" Extra Nena? If you cant stand these complicated matters, at least don't stop me from dealing with them. And by the way, you are leaving the discussion without leaving any serious source behind you.-- Dzole ( talk) 22:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Greekboy, I just wanted to be assured that the Greek editors involved in this article are not politicaly biased. Lets not fool ourselfes, there's lots of chauvinism in Wikipedia and there are Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Albanian and other Balkan "clans" and "coalitions" of POV-pushers. I've never accused you or your friend personally of anything yet, except of lack of sources. The Yugo page at Eurovision.tv which you fanaticaly stick to, contains some heavy factual errors, which I also elaborated, and it should be used with great care, and possibly compared to other sources. That page is not a supreme authority, OK? Regarding the mediation, I disagree with its result and I wrote to the admin who had closed the case. I dont know what will be, maybe nothing will change, however, yes, I think that it should be overturned since it was not based on convincing facts from your side, but you simply outvoted the only opponent, Imbris. Thats not a fair fight, and thats not how encyclopedias should be written. Back to the subject: SFRY and FRY were 2 different countries, different territories, different constitutions, different flags, different international status, different everything. FRY was never a member of the EBU, at least not before 2001, it never officialy inherited SFRY's EBU seat. It somehow participated in 1992 and thats it. Its not normal to merge these two different countries in a same article. We can't just merge Turkey and Greece, under the pretext that they had certain period of common history (cause they indeed had). The word "Yugoslavia" used by FRY means nothing in this case, I explained that 158 times minimum with sources and all. By the way, something informal, have you noticed that at eurovision.tv, in the comments section: [17], some people had already argued last year whether Extra Nena represented SFRY or FRY? Do you understand how high emotions run when Yugoslav subjects are being discussed? Dont you understand that those people incl. ex-Yugoslavs (Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Macedonians..) and non-Yugoslavs will probably check what Wikipedia is saying on the matter? Do you understand how important is to write an article that will explain the whole thing properly?
But no, no, you disregard that as "not important", claiming that allegedly, you are against mixing politics with music.
Dont tell me that there is no politics in the ESC:
etcetera..etcetera..etcetera...-- Dzole ( talk) 02:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)::
Thank you for the link, but what I found there was not convincing at all-- Dzole ( talk) 16:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Let me see: Correct me if Im wrong, but I see only two users being involved in the discussion, and only User:Itsmejudith supports Grk, without providing any convincing rationale, while the other, User:Soundvisions1 seems to be more careful and suggests: I strongly feel that common sense should be used and information looked at on a case by case basis rather than making a blanket generalization. So how did you "determine" that eurovision.tv is indeed a reliable source? This is obnoxious.-- Dzole ( talk) 16:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
We can argue about Yugoslavia's 1992 entry until the end of time. There seems hot debate as to whether the Extra Nena's entry in 1992 should be Yugoslavia's last ever entry, or Serbia & Montenegro's first ever entry. It appears, as far as the EBU are concerned, it's Yugoslavia's last ever entry and that's that. On the official Eurovision website Extra Nena's song in 1992 is listed as the final entry for Yugoslavia. That's the only source I regard as official for past ESC statistics. However The Diggiloo Thrush lists only entries from 1961 to 1991 on the Yugoslavia page, with a footnote saying the Yugoslavia 1992 entry is on the Serbia and Monenegro page.
If the EBU wanted to be really pedantic about Yugoslavia and its component countries in the ESC 1961 to present, they'd have done the following:
Things to consider are:
Presumably the EBU felt that, being as the song had been picked, it should still be able to participate under the name Yugoslavia in ESC 1992, and be regarded as Yugoslavia's last ever entry. Looking back, perhaps it would have been better if the EBU had seen the situation with SFR Yugoslavia in March 1992 (before Jugovizija '92) and not allowed Yugoslavia to enter in 1992.
I've noticed FR Yugoslavia never entered the ESC again whilst it was still offically FR Yugoslavia. The same land area next entered under the name Serbia & Montenegro in 2004, and that year was presented as being S&M's first ever entry. Officially when was FR Yugoslavia reconstituted as Serbia & Montenegro?
It's made me wonder what would have happened if Extra Nena had won the 1992 ESC. Presumably the FR Yugoslavia still couldn't have entered ESC 1993, and thus couldn't have hosted it either, so another country would have had to have hosted it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PontyCS1994 ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
There is absolutely no point in including the withdrawed entries. They didn't take part in Eurovision, and no other country page includes entries withdrawn before the contest (except Lebanon). I say we remove them. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 22:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In response to what Imbris said in his edit summary, it's not that I think that the Eurodalmatia source is not reputable, but that I believe that just because the artist won a contest that was a selection for the Eurovision Song Contest does not mean that it winner was going to represent Yugoslavia in Eurovision in the first place. It could be just as possible that the contest was held for the sake of the contest, and not for Eurovision. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 23:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
It is my opinion that, like other Baltic countries in Eurovision, that we should have cyrillic transliterations showing as well as latin (see FYR Macedonia). I'm not sure which ones to include though. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 23:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
This is not editing, this is edit-warring.
(1) He continues to thrive on one source policy and instead of talking about what other edit, he reverts even contrary to his prime source. Example Ivan & 3M, he deleted the 3M part.
(2) He continues his promotion of that one source as if that source list any references. It is a work of an web-admin, who received some documents written God knows where and simply transffered them into HTML.
(3) He continues his oblivion to the fact that Yugoslavia (FPRY/SFRY) was a multinational, multiconfessional, multiethnic, multilanguage society. But also a centralized, dogmatized and traumatized society. After all selections the preparation of the team would be taken over by the JRT. Sadly enough names such as Luciano Capurso would be vulgarly transliterated into Serbo-Croatian language to form Luči Kapurso. This also happened with Džuli, which was orriginaly called Julie in a different variation of legaly Croatian or Serbian language.
(4) Alma Čardžić's biography at her official web-site is written both in Bosnian as well as in Turkish language, why not inserting that fact? Who are we to discriminate against her view's of herself.
(5) Denial of simple fact that Luciano Capurso and Hamo Hajdarhodžić were selected at the local Yugoslavian selection as Dubrovački trubaduri under the guidance of Đelo Jusić.
Imbris ( talk) 03:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Now that the article for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has been meged with the Serbia-Montenegro articcle, should the same be done here, by including SFRY, FRY, and SM on the one page, moving the FRY entry to the SM page, or having three seperate pages? Vuvuzela2010 ( talk) 12:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I think that language of Yugoslav performances should be changed into Serbo-Croatian since it was the official language of former Yugoslavia (except of course in the cases were song was performed in Slovene language). Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and in last few years also Montenegrin are the standardized varieties of Serbo-Croatian considered to be separate languages since 1990 for political reasons. Most of the linguists on the other side still consider it to be the one language and it was the official language during the Yugoslav period. There are also some English language sources that state Serbo-Croatian as performance language (I didn't find it now for all songs, and since the topic is a bit obscure I am not sure if I will be able to): 1961. Ljiljana Petrović-Neke davne zvezde: Serbo-Croatian, 1973. Zdravko Čolić Gori Vatra: Serbo-Croatian 1982. Aska – Halo, Halo: Serbo-Croatian, 1989. Riva–Rock Me: Serbo-Croatian or this one or this one or this one, 1990. YUGOSLAVIA "Hajde da ludujemo" Tajči [Eurovision 1990: Final]...-- MirkoS18 ( talk) 18:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
@
MirkoS18: please be very careful what you say about people from other websites, in this case the remarks you have made towards a person who works for Diggiloo Thrush. Making libellous remarks should be avoided at all times. You should not "guess creator of the content at Diggiloo Thrush just tried to put the modern day language variety next to the song from certain former Yugoslav republic"
; such remark is bad faith judgement towards a person. I would advise perhaps striking out those remarks. We are to assume the content is correct and have good faith and trust that they know what they are doing when updating content to their website. You wish to use a different website is not exactly good faith either, and comes across as you distrusting a reliable source just because you feel personally that the creator is "incorrect". That, my friend, is
disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. As for the proposal to add a new column to show the TV station, that proposal would not be feasible either. Don't forget if we're to add such a column, then the same column and information would have to be added to all of the other
Countries in the Eurovision Song Contest articles too, for consistency purposes.
WP:ESC does pride itself on uniformity when it comes to articles. Also, I do recall this topic being brought up a few times in the past, and although I cannot find the exact location of the archived debates, I seem to vaguely recall a consensus being reached, which is why the languages are being used per se. And I have already pointed out that Serbo-Croatian was never an official language ordained by law of the federal government. The language was only a de facto language chosen by the citizens. So you rationale about Diggiloo Thrush is quashed there, as they are using official languages recognised by the federal government at the time of Yugoslavia's existence, and are not' stipulating a de facto language.
Wes Mouse
✒
16:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
@ CT Cooper: as an admin and long-time serving member of WP:ESC; are you able to recall the debate about language choices for Yugoslavia? Or perhaps have any views into the matter being raised by Mirko? Wes Mouse ✒ 18:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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It's odd how FR Yugoslavia's 1992 entry is included in Yugoslavia's page instead of Serbia & Montenegro. FR Yugoslavia and Serbia & Montenegro were the same country. They changed their name from FR Yugoslavia to Serbia & Montenegro in 2003 for UN membership. FR Yugoslavia shouldn't be included in Yugoslavia's page. It should be made clear on Serbia & Montenegro's page that the country was formally known as FR Yugoslavia, they competed in 1992, were expelled from 1993 to 2002, were allowed to compete in 2003 but missed out due to too many countries competing and then competed again from 2004 to 2006 before dissolving into separate nations on 2007. Karlwhen ( talk) 07:00, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Surtsicna: Thank you for your to this article regarding the languages of the competing entries. I wanted to explain my "anachronistic" edits in the context of what has been a lot of previous discussion regarding Yugoslavia's entries. As you can see from the above section there has been some debate previously over which language to label each entry, and while I do see considerable merit in your thoughts over how the mutually intelligible Serbo-Croatian dialects only developed into national languages in the 1990s and 2000s, I was simply updating the article per the agreed consensus already established to use Diggiloo Thrush as the source, and to make consistent the different interpretations which now exist across Eurovision articles. If you'd like to raise this point again, please do comment here or in the above section, or feel confident in starting a conversation at the Eurovision WikiProject if you believe this requires a greater revisiting and consensus on this. Sims2aholic8 ( talk) 13:50, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Yugoslavia on Eurovsion
Serbian entry - 1961, 1962, 1974, 1982, 1991, 1992 Croatian entry - 1963, 1965, 1968, 1969, 1971, 1973, 1983, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990 Bosnian entry - 1964, 1973, 1976, 1981 Slovenian entry - 1966, 1967, 1970, 1975 Montenegro entry: 1984 Macedonian entry: 0 Kosovo entry: 0 Vojvodina entry: 0
I am fan of Eurovision from Croatia
Croatian song won Eurovison 1989. That is reason why host city of Eurovision 1990 was Zagreb (Croatia), and not Beograd (Serbia)
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This article has been rated C-class. A C-class article is described as follows: The article is substantial, but is still missing important content or contains a lot of irrelevant material. The article should have some references to reliable sources, but may still have significant issues or require substantial cleanup. This article has only been assessed for the Eurovision project as I can not speak for its completeness in terms of other projects. Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 00:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
The previous version (as of october 5) see here: [10] contained an unsourced list of performers' ethnicity. I checked the available references in the article and I found no such information, if I missed something by mistake, I apologize and please point me to the right place. How should I know for example that Vlado Kalember is indeed an ethnic Montenegrin as it was written? I thought he's a Croat. Actually I dont know and it doesnt matter at all. At the "Jugovizija", the Yugoslav national ESC preselection, every national Radio-TV service from each of the Yugoslav federal units was sending 2 candidates each year (6 Yugoslav constituent republics, 2 provinces within Serbia, thats 8 stations X 2 songs= 16 per year). The ethnicity of the candidates not always corresponded with the ethnic majority of the federal unit which they represented. For example, Daniel (singer) was born in Montenegro but (as far as I remember, feel free to correct me) he was candidated from Croatia because he lived there or because they liked him, who cares. Or, a candidate from Bosnia and Herzegovina could be an ethnic Serb or Croat or Muslim by nationality or from a multhiethnic marriage or a group consisting of members of several ethnicities. Without having a sence for the complex ex-Yugoslav issues, you started a big problem by opening the "ethnicity" pandora box, hence I had to remove it and please dont put it back unless you have sources. Stop speculating. Btw an interesting website about national preselections, tho Im not sure it can be used as a reliable source: [11], check Yugoslavia -- Dzole ( talk) 14:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
An extensive archive for Jugovizija for each year: [12] The site belongs to Eurodalmatia, ESC fan club from from Dalmatia, Croatia. On the about us page its claimed that they are officialy registered ESC fan club recognized by OGAE, in close cooperation with other national ESC fan clubs. It lists not only Jugovizija participants but also the Radio-Television centers from each of the federal units (republics and autonomous provinces) that nominated them: RTV Ljubljana ( SR Slovenia), RTV Zagreb ( SR Croatia), RTV Sarajevo ( SR Bosnia and Herzegovina), RTV Titograd ( SR Montenegro), RTV Skopje ( SR Macedonia), RTV Beograd ( SR Serbia), RTV Novi Sad ( SAP Vojvodina) and RTV Priština ( SAP Kosovo). These RTV centers can be added instead of "ethnicity" in order to determine the originating federal unit of the song representing ex-YU on ESC.
Note that not all the centers participated from the very start in 1961. Perhaps not all of them had television yet, and also, Kosovo and Vojvodina gained more autonomy within Serbia with the constitutional changes in 1963 (see AP Kosovo and AP Vojvodina), and in 1974 (see SAP Kosovo and SAP Vojvodina), hence they became federal subjects. Also the number of songs nominated by each RTV center varied from year to year (sometimes 1, 2 or 3, making the total number of songs 8, 16, 20+ etc.). During several years in the 1980s it seems that it was standardized to 16 songs (2 per each of the 8 centers).
Example: Jugovizija 1983 (from the website)
Ranking/Title/ Artist/ RTV center/ Points
Conclusion: the Yugoslav ESC participant in 1983, Daniel, was nominated by TV Titograd from Montenegro, and that can be added to the article instead of his ethnicity.
-- Dzole ( talk) 16:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
If we're having the broadcasters in the table, wouldn't it make sense to include the Republic of the broadcaster it was based, especially for people who are not too knowledgable on Yugoslavia or Eurovision, or European georgraphy in general. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 21:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I tried to improve the article but there were editors who voluntarily changed it without objecting it on the talk page first as I did. Im not saying they are wrong, but still I will try to rewrite it again. Rationale provided here.-- Dzole ( talk) 01:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the official website just made a mistake because the actual performance showed the FR Yugoslavia flag. see here. Therefore, I feel that we should remove this sentence: However, currently, on the official ESC country specific page that entry is listed under the general designation Yugoslavia, but with the flag of SFR Yugoslavia. Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 03:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes. But this creates another issue: should the article be split into two separate articles?
IMHO- yes.
Yugoslavia is a complex issue.
Its not just the form of government that makes them different, they represent different concepts. State Union of Serbia and Montenegro is something completely different, so it definetly shouldnt be merged with any kind of Yugoslav article. These different things shouldnt be mixed unless you agree to recognize FRY as a legal succesor to SFRY which (as far as I know, correct me) the international community disapproved.
So back to ESC, there was:
The preselection took place in the shrunk and fading (formally) SFRY, but its winner clearly represented FRY, maybe the article should be split. Also, Eurodalmatia doesnt list Extra Nena in Yugovision. I dunno really, maybe two interlinked articles is a good solution with notes explaining the situation. -- Dzole ( talk) 04:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I didnt know about these issues and Im personally against merging SFRY with FRY, which is supported by Grk1011 (I dont know why?). I explained the timeline of the breakup of Yugoslavia in detail, and thats clear: Extra Nena on May 9th respresented FRY, not SFRY. After all GRk provided a youtube video himself /herself. This issue is not like: Kingdom of Greece and the Republic of Greece. SFRY and FRY is two completely different stories.
However I also disagree with some of Imbris' actions: those entries were submitted in the name of the RTV centers based in the each of the constituent units. Yes, they wanted to represent Yugoslavia on the ESC, no doubt about that, but Yugoslavia at the time was not an unitarian country. Are you trying to impose some sort of "Yugoslav" unitarism or what? How should I perceive your actions? It was a federative country of several constituent nations, each of them having the right to be credited for their achievments. The hard work of the rtv centers of its constituent units should be taken into consideration, as they left a legacy for the broadcasters of the independent states that emerged after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Please stop with voluntaristic actions right now and let be constructive. -- Dzole ( talk) 02:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. shortly saying: lets split it, this is going nowehere. -- Dzole ( talk) 03:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I checked Mediation Cabal FRY in ESC and now I understand what has been going on previously, and its not right. If you want to make a real encyclopedia, you must stick to the facts, not to "elect" a version that you (in this case a group of people) personally prefer. Its obvious that the opposing party, Imbris, was outnumbered, which doesnt automaticaly makes him wrong, though he didnt organized his "defence" well. I also believe that many of the non-Balkan "pro-merge" editors do not really understand the complexity of the Yugoslav case, which is very irresponsible. Also, I would like to ask the Greek editors involved in this case to assure me that they were neutral and unbiased, knowing that official Greece supported Serbia (dominant part of FRY) during the Yugoslav Wars.
I gathered several sources, and this is my opinion on the matter:
My conclusion: SFRY and FRY ESC pages should be split, as they represent two different countries. FRY unrightfully participated with a ex-SFRY ticket previously earned with 40 years of hard work by all the 8 federal units. FRY used the turmoil of the moment hence practically tricking the EBU.
-- Dzole ( talk) 18:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
First of all I am only half Greek, live in American and can't speak Greek. I know nothing about the political situation of Yugoslavia at the time of the competition and to be honest it really is not relevant. I feel like you ignored my explanation of the naming of the article. If it were named "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest" then we should expect to see "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" on the roster, but in fact only "Yugoslavia" is listed. Now the official site may be in error by listing the entry under the other flag, but the fact is that we need to write this article in terms of Eurovision, its subject. It is original research to take into account the situation of the country because that does not matter, what matters is that a Yugoslavian entry appeared for the last time in 1992. You can start the article off by saying that the name Yugoslavia was used to represent two different entities if you want, but you cannot split the article because that is not what happened at the contest. Grk1011/Stephen ( talk) 19:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
And yes, you can say that was an original research of sort, however I refrained from actually chaning anything in the article before I represented it here.-- Dzole ( talk) 21:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
First, can you please give me more info on this book? Also, who's the author and what are his credentials and knowledge on Yugoslav matters? Does he or she referenced any sources? Not that Im sceptical but still.. Also, the sentence you are quoting is so confusing, it may be interpreted in 100 ways and may be partially wrong: I explained 5 times minimum that at the moment ESC took place, FRY was already established (constitution passed on Apr 27, ESC took place on May 9). What Yugoslavia the author is reffering to? SFRY or FRY? What "provinces" broke away? This is ridiculuous. The province of Vojvodina never broke away neither from SFRY nor from FRY, while Kosovo did, but in 1999 (from Serbia, the constituent country of FRY). Also, its true that an entity called Yugoslavia (whatever it may be), performed for a last time in the ESC in 1992. It can be interpreted as a)SFRY b)FRY, cause the former didn't take part anymore as it died, while the latter, was not allowed to participate anymore due to sanctions and/ or lack of EBU membership (granted in 2001). The sentence is a complete confusion.-- Dzole ( talk) 22:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the link. I see. Call me sarcastic but, Mr. John Kennedy O'Connor [15] [16] who became fascinated with the Eurovision Song Contest at the age of six and who writes books obviously belonging in the category of "Did you know that...?" is a more relevant "source" and more important scientific authority than the United Nations, EBU and all that? what is his knowledge on the Yugoslav matters and did he consult any reliable historical sources to write that ridiculuous statement that you innocently quoted above? When he says "Yugoslavia" - its said! What an authority! Grk, Im sorry for my saracasm. But really..
So, according to you, SFR Yugoslavia doesnt deserve its own article SFRY in the ESC separately of FRY, despite the fact that SFRY founded EBU, despite the fact that SFRY was participating in ESC for 40 yrs and despite the fact that it sent all its most eminent acts there: Tereza Kesovija, Zdravko Čolić, Novi Fosili, Korni Grupa, Kićo Slabinac, Ambasadori, Indexi, Srebrna Krila, Vice Vukov, Vajta etc. According to you, thats "not important", and that "does not deserve a separate article". However, that single entry performed by Extra Nena, an irrelevant turbofolk singer, who clearly represented another country- FRY, you insist that she deserves to be mentioned, and thats why we will quarell for months and Imbris will come again, and so on and so on. This is obnoxious, and I have no other ways to explain it to you except through irony. Im sorry I lost my temper, no personal offence to you or anyone, but this went TOO far -- Dzole ( talk) 23:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
ESC doesnt think that "it is the same Yugoslavia", ESC doesnt think at all, judging by its wrong yugo page, its "official history" filled with nonsence like the one you referenced before, and the folowing confusing info on their "official" website:
I worked my back off to explain you every >single< detail of the issue, but now it seems that you are the one who's intentionaly or unintentionaly ignoring it. -- Dzole ( talk) 14:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
So how it happened then? You dont provide any serious source, or at least a convincing rationale based on facts, like I did. Outside opinions based on personal taste mean nothing if they are not supported by facts. Yes, incl. dates. They are bloody important. In the case of ex-Yugoslavia, litteraly bloody. I also gave you a bunch of footnotes, pitty that you didn't read them. Filter-out my personal research, take the bare-bone facts and its clear. SFRY and FRY are two completely different countries, both de facto and in the eyes of the international law. There's absolutely no reason to put them in a same basket, unless you consider FRY a legal succesor to SFRY, which is wrong, but Im afraid you do. You suggest me to leave the page as it is a "walk away"? Is it your private property? Im trying to seek admin help, although judging by what happened with the previous " mediation", where you convinced the mediator with that obviously wrong eurovision.tv page, Im not an optimist. This is shocking. -- Dzole ( talk) 17:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
No. SFRY and FRY were different countries, de facto, de jure and according to the international law. FRY=/=SFRY. They must have different articles. They were both announced as "Yugoslavia" but that means nothing. ESC's roster is not higher authorty than the interantional law. I told you, what ESC refered to as Germany before 1990, was only West Germany, full name Federal Republic of Germany, while East Germany didnt participate. On the other hand, Republic of Macedonia is called "FRY Macedonia", well why not just Macedonia then, if West Germany could be just Germany and so on? You see its a complete mess, there's no consistency. Its an entertainment show (not a very intellectual one) you cant use them as serious a source. -- Dzole ( talk) 18:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC) p.s. another one: they say "Greece" for Greece. Following the "FYR Macedonia" example, they should call it the Hellenic Republic as it is the state's official name in the UN, but thats another story -- Dzole ( talk) 19:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes I do. Thats why we should make a separate article titled: Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest.-- Dzole ( talk) 21:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I dont bring politics. Politics come on their own when Yugoslavia is discussed. Unfortunatelly. Not only a country collapsed and new ones emerged, but people died, cities were burnt, and you want to solve this extremely sensitive issue by putting everything into one basket and wash your hands. Its a shame and its a lack of sence and responsibility. And for what? For the "cult musician" Extra Nena? If you cant stand these complicated matters, at least don't stop me from dealing with them. And by the way, you are leaving the discussion without leaving any serious source behind you.-- Dzole ( talk) 22:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Greekboy, I just wanted to be assured that the Greek editors involved in this article are not politicaly biased. Lets not fool ourselfes, there's lots of chauvinism in Wikipedia and there are Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Albanian and other Balkan "clans" and "coalitions" of POV-pushers. I've never accused you or your friend personally of anything yet, except of lack of sources. The Yugo page at Eurovision.tv which you fanaticaly stick to, contains some heavy factual errors, which I also elaborated, and it should be used with great care, and possibly compared to other sources. That page is not a supreme authority, OK? Regarding the mediation, I disagree with its result and I wrote to the admin who had closed the case. I dont know what will be, maybe nothing will change, however, yes, I think that it should be overturned since it was not based on convincing facts from your side, but you simply outvoted the only opponent, Imbris. Thats not a fair fight, and thats not how encyclopedias should be written. Back to the subject: SFRY and FRY were 2 different countries, different territories, different constitutions, different flags, different international status, different everything. FRY was never a member of the EBU, at least not before 2001, it never officialy inherited SFRY's EBU seat. It somehow participated in 1992 and thats it. Its not normal to merge these two different countries in a same article. We can't just merge Turkey and Greece, under the pretext that they had certain period of common history (cause they indeed had). The word "Yugoslavia" used by FRY means nothing in this case, I explained that 158 times minimum with sources and all. By the way, something informal, have you noticed that at eurovision.tv, in the comments section: [17], some people had already argued last year whether Extra Nena represented SFRY or FRY? Do you understand how high emotions run when Yugoslav subjects are being discussed? Dont you understand that those people incl. ex-Yugoslavs (Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Macedonians..) and non-Yugoslavs will probably check what Wikipedia is saying on the matter? Do you understand how important is to write an article that will explain the whole thing properly?
But no, no, you disregard that as "not important", claiming that allegedly, you are against mixing politics with music.
Dont tell me that there is no politics in the ESC:
etcetera..etcetera..etcetera...-- Dzole ( talk) 02:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)::
Thank you for the link, but what I found there was not convincing at all-- Dzole ( talk) 16:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Let me see: Correct me if Im wrong, but I see only two users being involved in the discussion, and only User:Itsmejudith supports Grk, without providing any convincing rationale, while the other, User:Soundvisions1 seems to be more careful and suggests: I strongly feel that common sense should be used and information looked at on a case by case basis rather than making a blanket generalization. So how did you "determine" that eurovision.tv is indeed a reliable source? This is obnoxious.-- Dzole ( talk) 16:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
We can argue about Yugoslavia's 1992 entry until the end of time. There seems hot debate as to whether the Extra Nena's entry in 1992 should be Yugoslavia's last ever entry, or Serbia & Montenegro's first ever entry. It appears, as far as the EBU are concerned, it's Yugoslavia's last ever entry and that's that. On the official Eurovision website Extra Nena's song in 1992 is listed as the final entry for Yugoslavia. That's the only source I regard as official for past ESC statistics. However The Diggiloo Thrush lists only entries from 1961 to 1991 on the Yugoslavia page, with a footnote saying the Yugoslavia 1992 entry is on the Serbia and Monenegro page.
If the EBU wanted to be really pedantic about Yugoslavia and its component countries in the ESC 1961 to present, they'd have done the following:
Things to consider are:
Presumably the EBU felt that, being as the song had been picked, it should still be able to participate under the name Yugoslavia in ESC 1992, and be regarded as Yugoslavia's last ever entry. Looking back, perhaps it would have been better if the EBU had seen the situation with SFR Yugoslavia in March 1992 (before Jugovizija '92) and not allowed Yugoslavia to enter in 1992.
I've noticed FR Yugoslavia never entered the ESC again whilst it was still offically FR Yugoslavia. The same land area next entered under the name Serbia & Montenegro in 2004, and that year was presented as being S&M's first ever entry. Officially when was FR Yugoslavia reconstituted as Serbia & Montenegro?
It's made me wonder what would have happened if Extra Nena had won the 1992 ESC. Presumably the FR Yugoslavia still couldn't have entered ESC 1993, and thus couldn't have hosted it either, so another country would have had to have hosted it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PontyCS1994 ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
There is absolutely no point in including the withdrawed entries. They didn't take part in Eurovision, and no other country page includes entries withdrawn before the contest (except Lebanon). I say we remove them. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 22:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In response to what Imbris said in his edit summary, it's not that I think that the Eurodalmatia source is not reputable, but that I believe that just because the artist won a contest that was a selection for the Eurovision Song Contest does not mean that it winner was going to represent Yugoslavia in Eurovision in the first place. It could be just as possible that the contest was held for the sake of the contest, and not for Eurovision. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 23:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
It is my opinion that, like other Baltic countries in Eurovision, that we should have cyrillic transliterations showing as well as latin (see FYR Macedonia). I'm not sure which ones to include though. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) ( talk) 23:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
This is not editing, this is edit-warring.
(1) He continues to thrive on one source policy and instead of talking about what other edit, he reverts even contrary to his prime source. Example Ivan & 3M, he deleted the 3M part.
(2) He continues his promotion of that one source as if that source list any references. It is a work of an web-admin, who received some documents written God knows where and simply transffered them into HTML.
(3) He continues his oblivion to the fact that Yugoslavia (FPRY/SFRY) was a multinational, multiconfessional, multiethnic, multilanguage society. But also a centralized, dogmatized and traumatized society. After all selections the preparation of the team would be taken over by the JRT. Sadly enough names such as Luciano Capurso would be vulgarly transliterated into Serbo-Croatian language to form Luči Kapurso. This also happened with Džuli, which was orriginaly called Julie in a different variation of legaly Croatian or Serbian language.
(4) Alma Čardžić's biography at her official web-site is written both in Bosnian as well as in Turkish language, why not inserting that fact? Who are we to discriminate against her view's of herself.
(5) Denial of simple fact that Luciano Capurso and Hamo Hajdarhodžić were selected at the local Yugoslavian selection as Dubrovački trubaduri under the guidance of Đelo Jusić.
Imbris ( talk) 03:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Now that the article for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has been meged with the Serbia-Montenegro articcle, should the same be done here, by including SFRY, FRY, and SM on the one page, moving the FRY entry to the SM page, or having three seperate pages? Vuvuzela2010 ( talk) 12:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I think that language of Yugoslav performances should be changed into Serbo-Croatian since it was the official language of former Yugoslavia (except of course in the cases were song was performed in Slovene language). Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and in last few years also Montenegrin are the standardized varieties of Serbo-Croatian considered to be separate languages since 1990 for political reasons. Most of the linguists on the other side still consider it to be the one language and it was the official language during the Yugoslav period. There are also some English language sources that state Serbo-Croatian as performance language (I didn't find it now for all songs, and since the topic is a bit obscure I am not sure if I will be able to): 1961. Ljiljana Petrović-Neke davne zvezde: Serbo-Croatian, 1973. Zdravko Čolić Gori Vatra: Serbo-Croatian 1982. Aska – Halo, Halo: Serbo-Croatian, 1989. Riva–Rock Me: Serbo-Croatian or this one or this one or this one, 1990. YUGOSLAVIA "Hajde da ludujemo" Tajči [Eurovision 1990: Final]...-- MirkoS18 ( talk) 18:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
@
MirkoS18: please be very careful what you say about people from other websites, in this case the remarks you have made towards a person who works for Diggiloo Thrush. Making libellous remarks should be avoided at all times. You should not "guess creator of the content at Diggiloo Thrush just tried to put the modern day language variety next to the song from certain former Yugoslav republic"
; such remark is bad faith judgement towards a person. I would advise perhaps striking out those remarks. We are to assume the content is correct and have good faith and trust that they know what they are doing when updating content to their website. You wish to use a different website is not exactly good faith either, and comes across as you distrusting a reliable source just because you feel personally that the creator is "incorrect". That, my friend, is
disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. As for the proposal to add a new column to show the TV station, that proposal would not be feasible either. Don't forget if we're to add such a column, then the same column and information would have to be added to all of the other
Countries in the Eurovision Song Contest articles too, for consistency purposes.
WP:ESC does pride itself on uniformity when it comes to articles. Also, I do recall this topic being brought up a few times in the past, and although I cannot find the exact location of the archived debates, I seem to vaguely recall a consensus being reached, which is why the languages are being used per se. And I have already pointed out that Serbo-Croatian was never an official language ordained by law of the federal government. The language was only a de facto language chosen by the citizens. So you rationale about Diggiloo Thrush is quashed there, as they are using official languages recognised by the federal government at the time of Yugoslavia's existence, and are not' stipulating a de facto language.
Wes Mouse
✒
16:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
@ CT Cooper: as an admin and long-time serving member of WP:ESC; are you able to recall the debate about language choices for Yugoslavia? Or perhaps have any views into the matter being raised by Mirko? Wes Mouse ✒ 18:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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It's odd how FR Yugoslavia's 1992 entry is included in Yugoslavia's page instead of Serbia & Montenegro. FR Yugoslavia and Serbia & Montenegro were the same country. They changed their name from FR Yugoslavia to Serbia & Montenegro in 2003 for UN membership. FR Yugoslavia shouldn't be included in Yugoslavia's page. It should be made clear on Serbia & Montenegro's page that the country was formally known as FR Yugoslavia, they competed in 1992, were expelled from 1993 to 2002, were allowed to compete in 2003 but missed out due to too many countries competing and then competed again from 2004 to 2006 before dissolving into separate nations on 2007. Karlwhen ( talk) 07:00, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Surtsicna: Thank you for your to this article regarding the languages of the competing entries. I wanted to explain my "anachronistic" edits in the context of what has been a lot of previous discussion regarding Yugoslavia's entries. As you can see from the above section there has been some debate previously over which language to label each entry, and while I do see considerable merit in your thoughts over how the mutually intelligible Serbo-Croatian dialects only developed into national languages in the 1990s and 2000s, I was simply updating the article per the agreed consensus already established to use Diggiloo Thrush as the source, and to make consistent the different interpretations which now exist across Eurovision articles. If you'd like to raise this point again, please do comment here or in the above section, or feel confident in starting a conversation at the Eurovision WikiProject if you believe this requires a greater revisiting and consensus on this. Sims2aholic8 ( talk) 13:50, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Yugoslavia on Eurovsion
Serbian entry - 1961, 1962, 1974, 1982, 1991, 1992 Croatian entry - 1963, 1965, 1968, 1969, 1971, 1973, 1983, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990 Bosnian entry - 1964, 1973, 1976, 1981 Slovenian entry - 1966, 1967, 1970, 1975 Montenegro entry: 1984 Macedonian entry: 0 Kosovo entry: 0 Vojvodina entry: 0
I am fan of Eurovision from Croatia
Croatian song won Eurovison 1989. That is reason why host city of Eurovision 1990 was Zagreb (Croatia), and not Beograd (Serbia)