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I was a participant in these various conflicts. I've often heard them called "The Balkan Wars." This is the first place I've seen them referred to as the "Yugoslav Wars." It doesn't mean this is incorrect but it should be put forward here for anyone doing research. Gingermint ( talk) 22:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
.
I know Wikipedia encourages you to " Be Bold". But since this is a sensitive topic, I figured it would be better to ask first before editing:
Since dissolution of Yugoslavia is breakup of its constitutional Republics, only conflicts up to Dayton agreement can be considered as part of it.
After Dayton all ex-Yu republics became a new nations.
Conflicts in Macedonia and Kosovo are of different nature, and they are inside new Republics, so no longer apply to breakup of Yugoslavia (their goal is not relared to Yugoslavia in any way)
e.g. Conflict in Kosovo is a result of different series of events as explained here, that are much longlasting then Yugoslavia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian%E2%80%93Albanian_conflict —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.5.56 ( talk) 23:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Everything is very complicated. The Southern Serbian conflict was directly a spin-off from the Kosovo war. The Kosovo problems were the first to emerge in the former SFRY. The incidents within Kosovo dated back to the beginning of the Yugoslav Wars but then resurfaced after the Dayton accords. Either way, with the existence of a Yugoslav entity (FRY) with Belgrade as its capital, the two wars (in Serbia) involving ethnic Albanians are probably best billed as Yugoslav Wars. The stumbling block is Macedonia. Here, a government recognised for over nine years previously, had found itself at war with internal rebels representing a significant minority in the country. So whilst there was no conflict between Macedonia and the Belgrade authorities, the Macedonian security forces were at war with a faction which had links to both Southern Serbia and Kosovo conflicts. In 2002, after the war ended in Macedonia, there was an emergency period in Greece with Greek security forces on stand-by amid reports of clashes in the Epirus region. This did not take off, but there could very possibly one day be a conflict between Albanians and Greeks in Greece itself. It would be part of the same Albanian project as that in former Yugloslav regions, but can never be a Yugoslav War. This is a sticky point and it is a tall order predicting where to draw the line. Evlekis ( talk) 12:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Can users please stop reverting the intro lede. We need to be honest and not play this article like Kosova in the hands of the Serb nationalists. You can't deny that the Yugoslav Wars started out and were characterized by Milosevic's attempt to create Greater Serbia. Take that out, you could still have had Yugoslavia today. Crackajack Mac ( talk) 21:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Crackajack Mac has been blocked indef. as a sock of highly WP:DE user Human Rights Believer -- Tadija ( talk) 12:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
This article proves that Kosovo War was part of Yugoslav Wars. kedadial 18:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Personal views and monologues aside, what needs to be established is the position of the professional community. We need to see what the majority of the published scholars have written: Yugoslav Wars (and synonymous terms) 1991-1995, or Yugoslav Wars (and synonymous terms) 1991-2001. I'm hoping for Wiki professionalism and impartiality, not a "contest". Lets all just list sources on this subject and write up a note on how does each approach the matter (yes, even if one doesn't like it). This is the only way to avoid the stupid forum-like discussions where people voice how they "feel" on the issue, as its a pretty abstract subject (plus, this way we'll avoid the obvious danger of this discussion getting clogged by utter nonsense). --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
01:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
@direktor - You can´t really talk normally, do you? You can´t have one comment without your favourite words: "non-sence" and "stupid". Those words pretty much describe your interventions... Learn some education, or go kick some rocks in your village... Imb*bdcj!
@Evlekis, it´s really hard to talk without having this pseudo-direktor throwing insults and showing his complexes everywhere. I really dont care, I have other things to do. I´m out. FkpCascais ( talk) 12:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
from the lead: the Serbian-dominated congress voted down Slovenian proposals for an end to the one-party system and for economic reform. That is actually an opposite to what the source says. Must be reworked. -- windyhead ( talk) 19:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Why didn't you rephrase it? Can we see the exact source you refer to for ways that we can correct it if need be? User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 13:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Windyhead. I have for the moment restored the version revised by DIREKTOR for the following reasons: I believe you are discussing the BBC heap compiled by Kate Adie. I accept that she is not an academic source and that her writing was selective and not wholly reflective of Slobodan Milošević: meaning, she was pandering to the prejudice of the typical "BBC freak", that means the lover of BBC1, BBC News 24 and similar institutions (she presents Radio 4's
From Our Own Correspondent and listeners of Radio 4 or BBC World Service are of a higher intellectual capacity and are not as malleable as readers of that page). The point is that she was potraying the Idi Amin-style Slobodan Milošević, the Augusto Pinochet-style Milošević, the person with all the BBC design specs that simple readers love to hate. She did this by ignoring all related aspects and by not acknowledging Milošević's circumstances or any of his colleagues or opponents or their activities. If a Wikipedian produced the same information, it would be instantly removed for its open bias. However, it has been written, and is available on the BBC website, and BBC information qualifies as "reliable" on Wikipedia and we don't have a choice but to accept it. It does say "Serb dominated" for whatever that is taken to mean. The other thing that you have to consider is, if BBC is not reliable, what is? They have contributed to anti-Croatian propaganda as well, especially when they were compiling their essays to discredit Ante Gotovina. But the only news sources where one would find an alternative picture is HTV (Croatian television), and as things are, BBC and similar networks have the upper hand on this website.
User:Evlekis (Евлекис)
14:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
There is only one reference to the Kosovo War and it doesn't mention the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.110.175 ( talk) 18:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Kosovo War 1998-1999 should be mentioned because it was a part of a wider process of the disintegration of Yugoslavia. Here are some sources that Kosovo War was part of Yugoslav Wars:
-- Mladifilozof ( talk) 17:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
This article is very partial-- Stebunik ( talk) 23:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Let's settle this matter once and for all. Many have voiced their disagreement and opposition to remove Kosovo War from Yugoslav Wars, and I'm one of them. So a vote would be the best way to settle this issue. My argument, besides the fact that it is a part of Yugoslav Wars in virtually every other language on wikipedia, is that even the ICTY included it in its jurisdiction: the three Milosevic charges (wars in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo) were united into one single indictment [2]. This clearly shows that you can not look at Kosovo War as being apart from Yugoslav Wars, but as part of the whole conflict.
There were also many other excellent observations for this argument used in previous discussions. Now, User:DIREKTOR seems like an intelligent person and his argument is that Kosovo was part of the Serbian-Albanian conflict instead. However, I think he made a small misconception in his conclusion in this case. Namely, according to that deduction, Serbian occupation of Albania in 1912 was then not part of the First Balkan War. But obviously, it was. You also have the First Sino-Japanese War and the Second Sino-Japanese War, which are both part of the Sino-Japanese conflict. Yet, the second one is also considered part of World War II, and not apart from it. So I would suggest for Kosovo War to be part of Serbian-Albanian conflict AND Yugoslav Wars. I do not understand why it can or should not be part of both. Either category is not exclusive.
So, let's vote. Is Kosovo War part of Yugoslav Wars?-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 16:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, it's not like there was never a case of different opinions discussed to reach a consensus over a matter on wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves): You have, for example, the Golden hamster debate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Golden_hamster#Requested_Move_July_2010) or the White Rabbit debate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Rabbit#Requested_move), all of which can serve as the example how wiki users support or oppose some issues in the article.
"The idea that the Kosovo War in 2000 somehow contributed to the dissolution of Yugoslavia is farcical at best, and a purely (Kosovar) Albanian concept. It is a minority view in the scientific community. Yugoslavia broke-up in 1992."
Now that you mention the issue of majority and minority of scientific community, the notion that Kosovo War is not part of Yugoslav Wars is a minority view in the scientific community. Do I even need to again point to the majority of the scientific community that views it as part of Yugoslav Wars? ( [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]). Dr. Craig Nation perfectly summed it up when he commented: "Everything started with Kosovo and everything will finish with Kosovo" ( [8], page 223). By removing Kosovo, you remove the final conclusion to the whole conflict.
"The Yugoslav Wars are conflicts surrounding the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1943-1992). Yugoslavia broke-up, starting the Yugoslav Wars, which lasted up to 1995. The Kosovo War started as late as 2001 according to some researchers, no less than ten years after SFR Yugoslavia disintegrated and after six years of peace had already passed after the Yugoslav Wars were concluded".
Almost impossible that the Kosovo War started in 2001, and we both know it. The fact that you even place it that late makes me seriously question your expertise about the issue. Serbs even place the start of the war in 1996 when the KLA started to operate ( [9]). Also - not that Yugoslav Wars are somehow magically only limited to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and not to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - but in September 1991, a referendum on independence for Kosovo was organized. The referendum achieved a reported 90% turnout among the province's Albanians, and a 98% vote—nearly a million votes in all—which approved the creation of an independent Republic of Kosovo. Ergo, Kosovo also broke up from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991, around the same time as Croatia and Slovenia. The war was just a delayed reaction. The only difference is that Yugoslav forces managed to hush up the independence movement for a couple of years, but not for long. Also, in 1999, Kosovo was de facto taken away from Yugoslavia. Kosovo's declaration of independence was just a formality 9 years later (This shows that it was the final nail in the coffin of the Yugoslav state. The break-up came in at least two stages (1991-1992 and 1999-2003). After it, Yugoslavia barely held for a few years until 2003, when it collapsed as a political union called the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. In 2006, even that collapsed).
Again, why can the Kosovo War simply not be a part of both Serbian-Albanian conflict AND Yugoslav Wars?-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 16:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
By the way, I just recently checked again if I'm crazy or not, and even Encarta lists the Kosovo War as part of Yugoslav Wars. This again shows that my request for clarification is valid. Also, just take a look at infobox for Yugoslav Wars: DIREKTOR himself edited it and tolerated Kosovo War as part of Yugoslav Wars [11], until he suddenly, without any explanation, started deleting it from the list in January 2010. So, what gives?-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 11:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
This is pointless vote. WP:NOTDEMOCRACY You cannot outvote fact that Yugoslavia broke up in 1992. I reject this false vote. -- Tadija speaks 18:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I've restored a note of Kosovo to the lead. Maybe the rest of the removal edit should be reverted, too. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:16, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
It should also be noted that the article "Serbian–Albanian conflict" was deleted on 7 February 2011 per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Serbian–Albanian conflict. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Since when does Albania have to do with Yugoslavia? There was never a recall of war there aand since it wasn't part of Yugoslavija, it doesn't have any relevance. 68.202.26.86 ( talk) 04:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
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We've had an anonymous editor try to undo this consensus based on "ancient hatreds and turbulent history". I don't think that's an appropriate assessment lacking any sources here. Given that Kosovo War#Before the War doesn't list any sources for its vague description of early causes, and generally starts talking with references since the 1980s, I see little reason to doubt the assessment of Kosovo War as one of the wars resulting from the breakup of Yugoslavia. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 07:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear DIREKTOR, you are a very diligent user here on Wikipedia, yet for some reason you often play the „amnesia game“. If you want sources, scroll up, we already had this conversation and I am not going through this deja-vu topic every six months. Stop going round in circles. Some historians do not consider Kosovo War as part of the Yugoslav Wars – while others do. Therefore, it can be included in order to give a complete picture.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 15:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
No, no this is not WIKIPEDIA:OR, you should know better, DIREKTOR, you are longer active here than me. OR says that If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. The BBC link I provided is one source, not a combination of sources A and B to reach some third conclusion. Now you are taking this so far that you even claim that BBC is original research. Since I am in a good mood today, I will also give you one last proof: Yugoslav Wars by Nigel Thomas, p. 47 directly mentions the Kosovo conflict. So please, give it a rest already and focus your energy on writing something more useful on Wikipedia than this topic.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 13:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, your reference-less argument has so far failed to convince at least half a dozen good-faith editors over a period of several years. I don't have better suggestions other than giving up or actually finding sources to explicitly back your claim, which isn't impossible, rather than continue to do this. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 22:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
DIRECTOR, your extraneous messages on this topic make you seem more and more like a troll, whether you realize it or not. I posed you three simple questions and you failed to anwser any of them. You fell into the trap yourself when you admitted that Kosovo is still struggling with the legacies of Yugoslav Wars: why would Kosovo be affected by the Croatian war or Bosnian war? And again, why would Mr. Thomas include the Kosovo conflict in his book Yugoslav Wars? Do you seriously do not understand or are just pretending not to understand?
All those three sources in the article - and here, too - talk about the Kosovo conflict in the same context with the wars in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Whether you wants to call them, Yugoslav Wars, Wars of Yugoslav Seccession, Wars of Yugoslav Disintegration, Conflicts in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s or Balkan Wars, all these sources list those four wars as part of a wider conflict. The ICTJ link is particularly striking - "Slovenia’s declaration of independence from the Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991 marked the start of the dismantling of the former Yugoslavia. Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH) followed suit. The fighting between Slovenia and the Yugoslav People’s Army lasted only 10 days, but the brutal wars fought in Croatia and BiH (begun in 1991 and 1992 respectively) dragged on until 1995. Fighting in Kosovo lasted from 1998 to 1999." What is it that you do not understand in that publication? The BBC link, those three sources and these all mention the same context.
Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo...Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo....Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo...Notice a pattern, DIRECTOR? Does that tell you something?
All in all, there some 69,400 hits in google books alone for the words "Yugoslav Wars 1991 1999" https://www.google.hr/#hl=hr&prmdo=1&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=Cd-0T-DKLYPLsgbtycywDA&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=yugoslav+wars+1991+1999&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f9104e55b5a8b1d9&biw=956&bih=550
Please, stop embarssing yourself. I suggest we delete this whole topic for your own sake.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 11:41, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard This topic is now in the hands of users who are willing to give a third opinion on the matter.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 19:09, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok I think it is totally ridiculous that Kosovo is a part of the Yugoslav Wars. Macedonia? Are you joking me? That is incredibly unnecessary to think that Macedonia itself was a part of the war... Yugoslav Wars were Yugoslavs fighting for keeping the Yugoslavia together, then it switched to Serbs having Serb populated and historically Serb areas under Serbian rule. It was Serbia against Bosnia and Croatia. The Kosovo War, Preševo Valley and the Macedonian war were all different with Serbs and Macedonians against the Albanians, who wanted to form a Greater Albania with territories from Serbia, and Macedonia and in the future, Montenegro and Greece. So it's a whole different story and context. If consensus is used for it... Then please brace yourself with criticism from other people who are trying to contribute. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 17:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
http://libcom.org/history/yugoslavia-wage-cuts-war-wildcat
http://www.librarything.com/subject/Yugoslav+War,+1991-1995
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4676227261370202745
http://janus.lib.cam.ac.uk/db/node.xsp?id=CV%2FSubject%2FYugoslav%20War%20(1991-1995)
http://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Yugoslav+War%2C+1991-1995+--+Atrocities%22
How did I use an antagonizing manner? I was speaking my mind and I put sources on there. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 20:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh please, whatever... So any source I put in you would not accept, good job... You should be proud. No wonder you have many people criticizing your actions. I think you are a nationalist with heavy POV. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 09:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Nonetheless, how does Presevo and Macedonia become a part of the war? That is incredibly stupid, and heavily POV'd. I don't think you know anything about this toopic at all. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 09:58, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
http://www.kosovo.net/batak3.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 10:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
There is a flag of SFRY but it is not presented as one of belligerents.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Could we simplify the giant infobox? At the moment, it's completely unmanageable. I understand the temptation to add every detail to something that's supposed to be a summary (that's why controversial articles often have huge ledes), but I don't see how this benefits readers. bobrayner ( talk) 17:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 12:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Yugoslav Wars →
Yugoslav wars – Not a proper name, but a descriptive title. --Relisted.
walk
victor falk
talk 10:08, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
No such user (
talk)
08:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Not only is this article prejudiced, but Balkan based "admin" from Croatia is bullying editors who do not share his nationalistic worldview, and even does not allow for a POV tag to stick on this horrible article. The article has many problems:
Problems abound, but the clique of editors and admins with conflict of interest do not allow any review of article that they think they own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.221.171 ( talk) 17:55, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
Why are people FkpCascais and the usual IP address editing
this article to say that Kosovo is, rather than was, a province of Serbia? Surely everybody knows that Kosovo declared independence years ago...?
bobrayner (
talk)
00:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
The arms embargo section seems largely reliant on a single source and is phrased fairly strongly. I am certain 'sanction busting' happened, however statements like 'United Kingdom sent military equipment' could mean the 'UK Government facilitated sales', it could mean 'UK-manufactured military equipment was sent', or even 'UK-based arms dealers sent military equipment'. Such sweeping (and unclear and unqualified) statements seem pretty dangerous on the strength of one (non-mainstream) source. Pincrete ( talk) 21:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I was a participant in these various conflicts. I've often heard them called "The Balkan Wars." This is the first place I've seen them referred to as the "Yugoslav Wars." It doesn't mean this is incorrect but it should be put forward here for anyone doing research. Gingermint ( talk) 22:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
.
I know Wikipedia encourages you to " Be Bold". But since this is a sensitive topic, I figured it would be better to ask first before editing:
Since dissolution of Yugoslavia is breakup of its constitutional Republics, only conflicts up to Dayton agreement can be considered as part of it.
After Dayton all ex-Yu republics became a new nations.
Conflicts in Macedonia and Kosovo are of different nature, and they are inside new Republics, so no longer apply to breakup of Yugoslavia (their goal is not relared to Yugoslavia in any way)
e.g. Conflict in Kosovo is a result of different series of events as explained here, that are much longlasting then Yugoslavia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian%E2%80%93Albanian_conflict —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.5.56 ( talk) 23:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Everything is very complicated. The Southern Serbian conflict was directly a spin-off from the Kosovo war. The Kosovo problems were the first to emerge in the former SFRY. The incidents within Kosovo dated back to the beginning of the Yugoslav Wars but then resurfaced after the Dayton accords. Either way, with the existence of a Yugoslav entity (FRY) with Belgrade as its capital, the two wars (in Serbia) involving ethnic Albanians are probably best billed as Yugoslav Wars. The stumbling block is Macedonia. Here, a government recognised for over nine years previously, had found itself at war with internal rebels representing a significant minority in the country. So whilst there was no conflict between Macedonia and the Belgrade authorities, the Macedonian security forces were at war with a faction which had links to both Southern Serbia and Kosovo conflicts. In 2002, after the war ended in Macedonia, there was an emergency period in Greece with Greek security forces on stand-by amid reports of clashes in the Epirus region. This did not take off, but there could very possibly one day be a conflict between Albanians and Greeks in Greece itself. It would be part of the same Albanian project as that in former Yugloslav regions, but can never be a Yugoslav War. This is a sticky point and it is a tall order predicting where to draw the line. Evlekis ( talk) 12:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Can users please stop reverting the intro lede. We need to be honest and not play this article like Kosova in the hands of the Serb nationalists. You can't deny that the Yugoslav Wars started out and were characterized by Milosevic's attempt to create Greater Serbia. Take that out, you could still have had Yugoslavia today. Crackajack Mac ( talk) 21:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Crackajack Mac has been blocked indef. as a sock of highly WP:DE user Human Rights Believer -- Tadija ( talk) 12:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
This article proves that Kosovo War was part of Yugoslav Wars. kedadial 18:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Personal views and monologues aside, what needs to be established is the position of the professional community. We need to see what the majority of the published scholars have written: Yugoslav Wars (and synonymous terms) 1991-1995, or Yugoslav Wars (and synonymous terms) 1991-2001. I'm hoping for Wiki professionalism and impartiality, not a "contest". Lets all just list sources on this subject and write up a note on how does each approach the matter (yes, even if one doesn't like it). This is the only way to avoid the stupid forum-like discussions where people voice how they "feel" on the issue, as its a pretty abstract subject (plus, this way we'll avoid the obvious danger of this discussion getting clogged by utter nonsense). --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
01:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
@direktor - You can´t really talk normally, do you? You can´t have one comment without your favourite words: "non-sence" and "stupid". Those words pretty much describe your interventions... Learn some education, or go kick some rocks in your village... Imb*bdcj!
@Evlekis, it´s really hard to talk without having this pseudo-direktor throwing insults and showing his complexes everywhere. I really dont care, I have other things to do. I´m out. FkpCascais ( talk) 12:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
from the lead: the Serbian-dominated congress voted down Slovenian proposals for an end to the one-party system and for economic reform. That is actually an opposite to what the source says. Must be reworked. -- windyhead ( talk) 19:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Why didn't you rephrase it? Can we see the exact source you refer to for ways that we can correct it if need be? User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 13:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Windyhead. I have for the moment restored the version revised by DIREKTOR for the following reasons: I believe you are discussing the BBC heap compiled by Kate Adie. I accept that she is not an academic source and that her writing was selective and not wholly reflective of Slobodan Milošević: meaning, she was pandering to the prejudice of the typical "BBC freak", that means the lover of BBC1, BBC News 24 and similar institutions (she presents Radio 4's
From Our Own Correspondent and listeners of Radio 4 or BBC World Service are of a higher intellectual capacity and are not as malleable as readers of that page). The point is that she was potraying the Idi Amin-style Slobodan Milošević, the Augusto Pinochet-style Milošević, the person with all the BBC design specs that simple readers love to hate. She did this by ignoring all related aspects and by not acknowledging Milošević's circumstances or any of his colleagues or opponents or their activities. If a Wikipedian produced the same information, it would be instantly removed for its open bias. However, it has been written, and is available on the BBC website, and BBC information qualifies as "reliable" on Wikipedia and we don't have a choice but to accept it. It does say "Serb dominated" for whatever that is taken to mean. The other thing that you have to consider is, if BBC is not reliable, what is? They have contributed to anti-Croatian propaganda as well, especially when they were compiling their essays to discredit Ante Gotovina. But the only news sources where one would find an alternative picture is HTV (Croatian television), and as things are, BBC and similar networks have the upper hand on this website.
User:Evlekis (Евлекис)
14:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
There is only one reference to the Kosovo War and it doesn't mention the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.110.175 ( talk) 18:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Kosovo War 1998-1999 should be mentioned because it was a part of a wider process of the disintegration of Yugoslavia. Here are some sources that Kosovo War was part of Yugoslav Wars:
-- Mladifilozof ( talk) 17:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
This article is very partial-- Stebunik ( talk) 23:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Let's settle this matter once and for all. Many have voiced their disagreement and opposition to remove Kosovo War from Yugoslav Wars, and I'm one of them. So a vote would be the best way to settle this issue. My argument, besides the fact that it is a part of Yugoslav Wars in virtually every other language on wikipedia, is that even the ICTY included it in its jurisdiction: the three Milosevic charges (wars in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo) were united into one single indictment [2]. This clearly shows that you can not look at Kosovo War as being apart from Yugoslav Wars, but as part of the whole conflict.
There were also many other excellent observations for this argument used in previous discussions. Now, User:DIREKTOR seems like an intelligent person and his argument is that Kosovo was part of the Serbian-Albanian conflict instead. However, I think he made a small misconception in his conclusion in this case. Namely, according to that deduction, Serbian occupation of Albania in 1912 was then not part of the First Balkan War. But obviously, it was. You also have the First Sino-Japanese War and the Second Sino-Japanese War, which are both part of the Sino-Japanese conflict. Yet, the second one is also considered part of World War II, and not apart from it. So I would suggest for Kosovo War to be part of Serbian-Albanian conflict AND Yugoslav Wars. I do not understand why it can or should not be part of both. Either category is not exclusive.
So, let's vote. Is Kosovo War part of Yugoslav Wars?-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 16:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, it's not like there was never a case of different opinions discussed to reach a consensus over a matter on wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves): You have, for example, the Golden hamster debate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Golden_hamster#Requested_Move_July_2010) or the White Rabbit debate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Rabbit#Requested_move), all of which can serve as the example how wiki users support or oppose some issues in the article.
"The idea that the Kosovo War in 2000 somehow contributed to the dissolution of Yugoslavia is farcical at best, and a purely (Kosovar) Albanian concept. It is a minority view in the scientific community. Yugoslavia broke-up in 1992."
Now that you mention the issue of majority and minority of scientific community, the notion that Kosovo War is not part of Yugoslav Wars is a minority view in the scientific community. Do I even need to again point to the majority of the scientific community that views it as part of Yugoslav Wars? ( [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]). Dr. Craig Nation perfectly summed it up when he commented: "Everything started with Kosovo and everything will finish with Kosovo" ( [8], page 223). By removing Kosovo, you remove the final conclusion to the whole conflict.
"The Yugoslav Wars are conflicts surrounding the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1943-1992). Yugoslavia broke-up, starting the Yugoslav Wars, which lasted up to 1995. The Kosovo War started as late as 2001 according to some researchers, no less than ten years after SFR Yugoslavia disintegrated and after six years of peace had already passed after the Yugoslav Wars were concluded".
Almost impossible that the Kosovo War started in 2001, and we both know it. The fact that you even place it that late makes me seriously question your expertise about the issue. Serbs even place the start of the war in 1996 when the KLA started to operate ( [9]). Also - not that Yugoslav Wars are somehow magically only limited to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and not to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - but in September 1991, a referendum on independence for Kosovo was organized. The referendum achieved a reported 90% turnout among the province's Albanians, and a 98% vote—nearly a million votes in all—which approved the creation of an independent Republic of Kosovo. Ergo, Kosovo also broke up from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991, around the same time as Croatia and Slovenia. The war was just a delayed reaction. The only difference is that Yugoslav forces managed to hush up the independence movement for a couple of years, but not for long. Also, in 1999, Kosovo was de facto taken away from Yugoslavia. Kosovo's declaration of independence was just a formality 9 years later (This shows that it was the final nail in the coffin of the Yugoslav state. The break-up came in at least two stages (1991-1992 and 1999-2003). After it, Yugoslavia barely held for a few years until 2003, when it collapsed as a political union called the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. In 2006, even that collapsed).
Again, why can the Kosovo War simply not be a part of both Serbian-Albanian conflict AND Yugoslav Wars?-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 16:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
By the way, I just recently checked again if I'm crazy or not, and even Encarta lists the Kosovo War as part of Yugoslav Wars. This again shows that my request for clarification is valid. Also, just take a look at infobox for Yugoslav Wars: DIREKTOR himself edited it and tolerated Kosovo War as part of Yugoslav Wars [11], until he suddenly, without any explanation, started deleting it from the list in January 2010. So, what gives?-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 11:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
This is pointless vote. WP:NOTDEMOCRACY You cannot outvote fact that Yugoslavia broke up in 1992. I reject this false vote. -- Tadija speaks 18:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I've restored a note of Kosovo to the lead. Maybe the rest of the removal edit should be reverted, too. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:16, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
It should also be noted that the article "Serbian–Albanian conflict" was deleted on 7 February 2011 per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Serbian–Albanian conflict. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Since when does Albania have to do with Yugoslavia? There was never a recall of war there aand since it wasn't part of Yugoslavija, it doesn't have any relevance. 68.202.26.86 ( talk) 04:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
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We've had an anonymous editor try to undo this consensus based on "ancient hatreds and turbulent history". I don't think that's an appropriate assessment lacking any sources here. Given that Kosovo War#Before the War doesn't list any sources for its vague description of early causes, and generally starts talking with references since the 1980s, I see little reason to doubt the assessment of Kosovo War as one of the wars resulting from the breakup of Yugoslavia. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 07:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear DIREKTOR, you are a very diligent user here on Wikipedia, yet for some reason you often play the „amnesia game“. If you want sources, scroll up, we already had this conversation and I am not going through this deja-vu topic every six months. Stop going round in circles. Some historians do not consider Kosovo War as part of the Yugoslav Wars – while others do. Therefore, it can be included in order to give a complete picture.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 15:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
No, no this is not WIKIPEDIA:OR, you should know better, DIREKTOR, you are longer active here than me. OR says that If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. The BBC link I provided is one source, not a combination of sources A and B to reach some third conclusion. Now you are taking this so far that you even claim that BBC is original research. Since I am in a good mood today, I will also give you one last proof: Yugoslav Wars by Nigel Thomas, p. 47 directly mentions the Kosovo conflict. So please, give it a rest already and focus your energy on writing something more useful on Wikipedia than this topic.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 13:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, your reference-less argument has so far failed to convince at least half a dozen good-faith editors over a period of several years. I don't have better suggestions other than giving up or actually finding sources to explicitly back your claim, which isn't impossible, rather than continue to do this. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 22:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
DIRECTOR, your extraneous messages on this topic make you seem more and more like a troll, whether you realize it or not. I posed you three simple questions and you failed to anwser any of them. You fell into the trap yourself when you admitted that Kosovo is still struggling with the legacies of Yugoslav Wars: why would Kosovo be affected by the Croatian war or Bosnian war? And again, why would Mr. Thomas include the Kosovo conflict in his book Yugoslav Wars? Do you seriously do not understand or are just pretending not to understand?
All those three sources in the article - and here, too - talk about the Kosovo conflict in the same context with the wars in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Whether you wants to call them, Yugoslav Wars, Wars of Yugoslav Seccession, Wars of Yugoslav Disintegration, Conflicts in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s or Balkan Wars, all these sources list those four wars as part of a wider conflict. The ICTJ link is particularly striking - "Slovenia’s declaration of independence from the Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991 marked the start of the dismantling of the former Yugoslavia. Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH) followed suit. The fighting between Slovenia and the Yugoslav People’s Army lasted only 10 days, but the brutal wars fought in Croatia and BiH (begun in 1991 and 1992 respectively) dragged on until 1995. Fighting in Kosovo lasted from 1998 to 1999." What is it that you do not understand in that publication? The BBC link, those three sources and these all mention the same context.
Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo...Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo....Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo...Notice a pattern, DIRECTOR? Does that tell you something?
All in all, there some 69,400 hits in google books alone for the words "Yugoslav Wars 1991 1999" https://www.google.hr/#hl=hr&prmdo=1&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=Cd-0T-DKLYPLsgbtycywDA&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=yugoslav+wars+1991+1999&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f9104e55b5a8b1d9&biw=956&bih=550
Please, stop embarssing yourself. I suggest we delete this whole topic for your own sake.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 11:41, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard This topic is now in the hands of users who are willing to give a third opinion on the matter.-- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 19:09, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok I think it is totally ridiculous that Kosovo is a part of the Yugoslav Wars. Macedonia? Are you joking me? That is incredibly unnecessary to think that Macedonia itself was a part of the war... Yugoslav Wars were Yugoslavs fighting for keeping the Yugoslavia together, then it switched to Serbs having Serb populated and historically Serb areas under Serbian rule. It was Serbia against Bosnia and Croatia. The Kosovo War, Preševo Valley and the Macedonian war were all different with Serbs and Macedonians against the Albanians, who wanted to form a Greater Albania with territories from Serbia, and Macedonia and in the future, Montenegro and Greece. So it's a whole different story and context. If consensus is used for it... Then please brace yourself with criticism from other people who are trying to contribute. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 17:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
http://libcom.org/history/yugoslavia-wage-cuts-war-wildcat
http://www.librarything.com/subject/Yugoslav+War,+1991-1995
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4676227261370202745
http://janus.lib.cam.ac.uk/db/node.xsp?id=CV%2FSubject%2FYugoslav%20War%20(1991-1995)
http://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Yugoslav+War%2C+1991-1995+--+Atrocities%22
How did I use an antagonizing manner? I was speaking my mind and I put sources on there. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 20:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh please, whatever... So any source I put in you would not accept, good job... You should be proud. No wonder you have many people criticizing your actions. I think you are a nationalist with heavy POV. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 09:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Nonetheless, how does Presevo and Macedonia become a part of the war? That is incredibly stupid, and heavily POV'd. I don't think you know anything about this toopic at all. 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 09:58, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
http://www.kosovo.net/batak3.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.118.102.247 ( talk) 10:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
There is a flag of SFRY but it is not presented as one of belligerents.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Could we simplify the giant infobox? At the moment, it's completely unmanageable. I understand the temptation to add every detail to something that's supposed to be a summary (that's why controversial articles often have huge ledes), but I don't see how this benefits readers. bobrayner ( talk) 17:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 12:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Yugoslav Wars →
Yugoslav wars – Not a proper name, but a descriptive title. --Relisted.
walk
victor falk
talk 10:08, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
No such user (
talk)
08:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Not only is this article prejudiced, but Balkan based "admin" from Croatia is bullying editors who do not share his nationalistic worldview, and even does not allow for a POV tag to stick on this horrible article. The article has many problems:
Problems abound, but the clique of editors and admins with conflict of interest do not allow any review of article that they think they own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.221.171 ( talk) 17:55, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
Why are people FkpCascais and the usual IP address editing
this article to say that Kosovo is, rather than was, a province of Serbia? Surely everybody knows that Kosovo declared independence years ago...?
bobrayner (
talk)
00:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
The arms embargo section seems largely reliant on a single source and is phrased fairly strongly. I am certain 'sanction busting' happened, however statements like 'United Kingdom sent military equipment' could mean the 'UK Government facilitated sales', it could mean 'UK-manufactured military equipment was sent', or even 'UK-based arms dealers sent military equipment'. Such sweeping (and unclear and unqualified) statements seem pretty dangerous on the strength of one (non-mainstream) source. Pincrete ( talk) 21:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
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