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Kwani: I disagre with you as it is obvious you are not a sign linguist. If you are a sign linguist, you would not go for abbreviations in English (no one does that anyway i.e. French SL = LSF so on. Can you please give me the abbreviation for Yugoslav SL in Futhermore, the term "Yugoslav Sign Language" does not really exist in sign linguistics - there is nothing written about this apart from an obstacle & tiny entry in Van Cleve's 1987 book (many mistakes were also found in other entries inside the same book) so you cannot base your argument on this book. Can you give me more references that Yugoslav SL is The right to name their own languages are from the respective sign communities i.e. Kosovar Sign Language is agreed upon by Kosovar National Association of the Deaf and users of Kosovar SL. There is very little research on signed languages in Eastern Europe and the Balkans (apart from Turkey - tons of reseasrch there!!!). If we use your argument that HZJ (Croatian SL) is a dialect of Yugoslav SL then you should remove the Auslan entry or the New Zealand Sign Language entry because they are just dialects of British Sign Language or even Israeli Sign Language just because it came from German Sign Language.
Please do not use the abbreviations in English - it has already shown your ignorance on sign linguistics. Be sensitive.
-- Belfastshane ( talk) 16:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Turns out that CSL is just YSL, though with some dialectical variation (as in any country with separately established schools for the deaf). I've therefore moved it to YSL, which I'm sure will raise some hackles; was thinking of Yugoslav (Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian) Sign Language, but I haven't seen much actual usage to guide the decision. Other suggestions are welcome. — kwami ( talk) 09:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Yugoslav Sign Language → ?? — Not clean which name would be appropriate. "Yugoslav Sign Language" may (or may not) be obsolete as a name. However, the other names under which it is known, Croatian Sign Language, Slovenian Sign Language, Serbian Sign Language, (and maybe Macedonian Sign Language?) are regional and therefore not appropriate for a general article. Is there a better name? "Ex-Yugoslav SL"? "Yugoslav (Croatian, Serbian, and Slovenian) SL"? — kwami ( talk) 23:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Croatian Sign Language is a recently created WP:content fork. No evidence has been presented that it is a separate language; evidence has been given, but it actually supports the unity of the language. — kwami ( talk) 02:17, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Macedonian Sign Language isn't so clear. It certainly seems to fit the description of YSL; however, I can find no attestation of it either as a variant of YSL or as an independent language. — kwami ( talk) 13:04, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Against merger.-- Sokac121 ( talk) 13:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Against. Croatian Sign Language has over three times as many Google Hits as Yugoslavian Sign Language, as well as way more hits on Google Books. YSL has no modern academic references that I can find (while HZJ has many), and this whole argument seems to be based on your own original research.-- Thewanderer ( talk) 15:45, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
About the Macedonian, there is not even one source about the origin of the Macedonian Sign language so I would suggest not to merge it since we know nothing about the relations btw MK and SH. -- MacedonianBoy ( talk) 18:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
I took the liberty, since my article was cited in both this article and the new one on CSL, to clarify what it actually said, and maybe smooth over the issue. This looks like the typical situation that often comes up in dialects that are in the process of separating into distinct languages (often because of political changes, as has happened with Serbo-Croatian). It seems best in an encyclopedia not to take a stand one way or another on this issue, but simply report that different people view the situation different ways. That's what I attempted to do in my edits. I certainly have seen much more published in the linguistic literature under the name "Croatian Sign Language/HZJ" than under the name "Yugoslav Sign Language", especially recently. So, it seems that some sort of article under that name is appropriate, especially to focus in on details particular to that region. Therefore, I support keeping them as separate articles, but including notes in both that the issue of one language vs. many is unsettled. Note that the Ethnologue and ISO 639-3 include both YSL and CSL, but not the other Balkan sign varieties. This is inconsistent, but it is not clear which is the correct course of action, so I have suggested to the Ethnologue editor a temporary solution along the lines of what I suggested here. Clearly, further on-the-ground research is needed. AlbertBickford ( talk) 20:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Related to some of the previous discussions about whether to have separate or merged articles on the sign languages of the former Yugoslavia, the current situation (Croatian SL presented as a dialect of Yugoslav Sign Language) leads to a problem with respect to the ISO 639-3 standard (which recognizes Croatian Sign Language as a separate language, but combines the rest as Yugoslavian Sign Language). Because of the way the Infobox works, [ysl] is presented as an "inclusive code". Clicking on that link, one is led to the discussion of macrolanguages in ISO 639-3. But, this is clearly incorrect. Yugoslavian Sign Language is not a macrolanguage in ISO 639-3, and its denotation within the standard does not include Croatian Sign Language. Whether we agree with that classification (which I agree is controversial) is beside the point. The fact is that the standard does things one way, and we have a responsibility to report what that accurately.
Now, this is a problem created in part by the way the infobox template is coded (the phrase "inclusive code" and the link to the article on macrolanguages are supplied by the template). But, lying behind it is the controversy over whether to include Croatian SL as part of Yugoslavian SL. Add to that, lurking behind the scenes, there is a question as to whether other varieties currently considered part of Yugoslavian Sign Language [ysl] should be recognized as separate languages in ISO 639-3--a matter that I suspect will come into the open with formal proposals for changes to ISO 639-3 in future years.
As a way forward, here is what I suggest:
I'd like @ Kwami:, @ Thewanderer:, and @ MacedonianBoy: to comment on this before we make any changes. AlbertBickford ( talk) 16:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
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An anonymous editor recently deleted Kosovar Sign Language from the Infobox without explanation. I see in the talk above that it has been referenced as part of the article for a long time, so I question whether it should have been deleted. However, I don't know enough about the situation to say for sure that the edit was incorrect, because I don't see Kosovo listed in several other places in the article where it could have been. This needs attention by someone who understands the situation better. AlbertBickford ( talk) 00:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
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Kwani: I disagre with you as it is obvious you are not a sign linguist. If you are a sign linguist, you would not go for abbreviations in English (no one does that anyway i.e. French SL = LSF so on. Can you please give me the abbreviation for Yugoslav SL in Futhermore, the term "Yugoslav Sign Language" does not really exist in sign linguistics - there is nothing written about this apart from an obstacle & tiny entry in Van Cleve's 1987 book (many mistakes were also found in other entries inside the same book) so you cannot base your argument on this book. Can you give me more references that Yugoslav SL is The right to name their own languages are from the respective sign communities i.e. Kosovar Sign Language is agreed upon by Kosovar National Association of the Deaf and users of Kosovar SL. There is very little research on signed languages in Eastern Europe and the Balkans (apart from Turkey - tons of reseasrch there!!!). If we use your argument that HZJ (Croatian SL) is a dialect of Yugoslav SL then you should remove the Auslan entry or the New Zealand Sign Language entry because they are just dialects of British Sign Language or even Israeli Sign Language just because it came from German Sign Language.
Please do not use the abbreviations in English - it has already shown your ignorance on sign linguistics. Be sensitive.
-- Belfastshane ( talk) 16:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Turns out that CSL is just YSL, though with some dialectical variation (as in any country with separately established schools for the deaf). I've therefore moved it to YSL, which I'm sure will raise some hackles; was thinking of Yugoslav (Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian) Sign Language, but I haven't seen much actual usage to guide the decision. Other suggestions are welcome. — kwami ( talk) 09:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Yugoslav Sign Language → ?? — Not clean which name would be appropriate. "Yugoslav Sign Language" may (or may not) be obsolete as a name. However, the other names under which it is known, Croatian Sign Language, Slovenian Sign Language, Serbian Sign Language, (and maybe Macedonian Sign Language?) are regional and therefore not appropriate for a general article. Is there a better name? "Ex-Yugoslav SL"? "Yugoslav (Croatian, Serbian, and Slovenian) SL"? — kwami ( talk) 23:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Croatian Sign Language is a recently created WP:content fork. No evidence has been presented that it is a separate language; evidence has been given, but it actually supports the unity of the language. — kwami ( talk) 02:17, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Macedonian Sign Language isn't so clear. It certainly seems to fit the description of YSL; however, I can find no attestation of it either as a variant of YSL or as an independent language. — kwami ( talk) 13:04, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Against merger.-- Sokac121 ( talk) 13:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Against. Croatian Sign Language has over three times as many Google Hits as Yugoslavian Sign Language, as well as way more hits on Google Books. YSL has no modern academic references that I can find (while HZJ has many), and this whole argument seems to be based on your own original research.-- Thewanderer ( talk) 15:45, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
About the Macedonian, there is not even one source about the origin of the Macedonian Sign language so I would suggest not to merge it since we know nothing about the relations btw MK and SH. -- MacedonianBoy ( talk) 18:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
I took the liberty, since my article was cited in both this article and the new one on CSL, to clarify what it actually said, and maybe smooth over the issue. This looks like the typical situation that often comes up in dialects that are in the process of separating into distinct languages (often because of political changes, as has happened with Serbo-Croatian). It seems best in an encyclopedia not to take a stand one way or another on this issue, but simply report that different people view the situation different ways. That's what I attempted to do in my edits. I certainly have seen much more published in the linguistic literature under the name "Croatian Sign Language/HZJ" than under the name "Yugoslav Sign Language", especially recently. So, it seems that some sort of article under that name is appropriate, especially to focus in on details particular to that region. Therefore, I support keeping them as separate articles, but including notes in both that the issue of one language vs. many is unsettled. Note that the Ethnologue and ISO 639-3 include both YSL and CSL, but not the other Balkan sign varieties. This is inconsistent, but it is not clear which is the correct course of action, so I have suggested to the Ethnologue editor a temporary solution along the lines of what I suggested here. Clearly, further on-the-ground research is needed. AlbertBickford ( talk) 20:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Related to some of the previous discussions about whether to have separate or merged articles on the sign languages of the former Yugoslavia, the current situation (Croatian SL presented as a dialect of Yugoslav Sign Language) leads to a problem with respect to the ISO 639-3 standard (which recognizes Croatian Sign Language as a separate language, but combines the rest as Yugoslavian Sign Language). Because of the way the Infobox works, [ysl] is presented as an "inclusive code". Clicking on that link, one is led to the discussion of macrolanguages in ISO 639-3. But, this is clearly incorrect. Yugoslavian Sign Language is not a macrolanguage in ISO 639-3, and its denotation within the standard does not include Croatian Sign Language. Whether we agree with that classification (which I agree is controversial) is beside the point. The fact is that the standard does things one way, and we have a responsibility to report what that accurately.
Now, this is a problem created in part by the way the infobox template is coded (the phrase "inclusive code" and the link to the article on macrolanguages are supplied by the template). But, lying behind it is the controversy over whether to include Croatian SL as part of Yugoslavian SL. Add to that, lurking behind the scenes, there is a question as to whether other varieties currently considered part of Yugoslavian Sign Language [ysl] should be recognized as separate languages in ISO 639-3--a matter that I suspect will come into the open with formal proposals for changes to ISO 639-3 in future years.
As a way forward, here is what I suggest:
I'd like @ Kwami:, @ Thewanderer:, and @ MacedonianBoy: to comment on this before we make any changes. AlbertBickford ( talk) 16:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Yugoslav Sign Language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:51, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
An anonymous editor recently deleted Kosovar Sign Language from the Infobox without explanation. I see in the talk above that it has been referenced as part of the article for a long time, so I question whether it should have been deleted. However, I don't know enough about the situation to say for sure that the edit was incorrect, because I don't see Kosovo listed in several other places in the article where it could have been. This needs attention by someone who understands the situation better. AlbertBickford ( talk) 00:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)