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There is a proposal to create a precedent that names are not encyclopedic. Articles about names regularly show up on various deletion pages and are summarily deleted. Perhaps - since you've been working on an article about a name, you hold a different opinion that you'd like to express. Please do: Wikipedia:Deletion policy/names and surnames SchmuckyTheCat 17:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
For this article, I've found it impossible to explain the the historical origins of the Yuan name, and variations of the character to write the surname, without using Chinese characters. Some uses may not be understood by an English reader without knowledge of Chinese, so I've confined these to the footnotes. For example:
-- Yu Ninjie 10:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
(copied from User talk:Yu Ninjie)
That article was very well written. I don't know if I was any help--I copyedited a bit but I'm no expert so I don't know if its fair to say I did a peer review (I don't know the rules of Wikipedia peer review anyway)...yet in reality I don't think there are that many experts on Chinese surnames here (or even on zh wiki for that matter!). Is Yuan your surname (in Mandarin)? Come to think of it, can we add the pronunciations in other dialects? Were you the anon 211.26.149.129 who created the article. Again, great job. -- Dpr 06:05, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Everything I said is completely pointless in light of your revisions. It's extremely clear at this stange. Excellent work on your second (and subsequent) passes since the other day. One question: you may want to have a go at tidying/harmonizing Yuan on List_of_common_Chinese_surnames. Additionally, have you see the ancestral home article--it may be useful, and in either case, maybe you'd be interested in helping spruce it up. Thanks and kudos. Peace, Dpr 10:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Converted to the Chicago romanization, is it? :) Anyway, thank you so much for your kind assistance at ancestral home. Haha--as you probably know, the term "hometown" is probably overused in English translations of Chinese, or by Chinese speakers of English, but maybe it's just a cultural artifact and couldn't/shouldn't be rectified. Not to say other other features of Sino-English oughtn't be corrected :) Good luck in your future endeavors. If I know anyone who can help with finding those transliterations, I'll send them your way. All the best, Dpr 03:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if it is worth a mention that the very popular Vietnamese surname, Nguyễn, would sound like Yuan in Chinese? Not very related, I suppose. -- KittySaturn 02:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
seems to be some vandalism here - the section on adoption by non-Han, for example
Also, the caption under the seal image.
-And also someone adding "ain't
Ernie but..."
I glanced through this article and it seems to be based partly on original research, which seems to have eluded those editors who made this article a featured one. For instance, I see several references to dynastic histories and Confucian classics such as Zuozhuan. These are primary source material for the study of ancient China and Wikipedia is not the place to publish original thought on Chinese genealogy. I am loath to delete things and ruin the article, so I hope that someone with access to credible academic secondary literature can overcome this serious shortcoming.-- Niohe 02:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I hope User:Khoikhoi does not mind me quoting him, but here is what he posted on my user page:
According to WP policy, the interpretation of primary sources such as Chinese classics is indeed considered original research. Though it is sometims useful to quote such sources, normally their interpretation should be left to professional scholars. WP then reports on their work (secondary sources).
So, while I have no problem moving the tag up or down, do not remove it! Instead come up with some secondary sources for this article.-- Niohe 03:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The Yuan Surname Study Website states that Zuo Zhan indicates this claim. Under 陽夏世系:
The editors may have translated this information from the Chinese article. Is this the correct/appropriate source? ian-Kiu-Biu 04:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
AQu01rius ( User • Talk) 06:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The mere assertion of original research here seems to be that the sources are really old. As stated by WP:NOR, ...For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source... Failing this, a statement might be considered original research. Now - exactly what parts of the article don't you (Niohe) think agree with the primary source? I don't recall you've mentioned any at all. Just the fact that the sources are old does not make it original research. This is what I've kept repeating - original research means original work that WP editor has came up with. In the case of primary sources, this would occur if what is written on WP does not concur with the primary sources. So what exactly do you think is original research? Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 06:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe one of the external link now provides references with traditional sources used. ian-Kiu-Biu 03:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
You are still refusing to quote a specific section which you think is inappropriate, and how. I am not sure if your saying that using ancient sources to write any sort of claim is wrong - even if it's merely descriptive (which is acceptable AND strongly encouraged according to WP:NOR). I don't know if you are familiar with Greek-Roman history FA articles, but many of them contains reasonable amount of "original research" according to your policy (such as Roman-Spartan War, which many part of the sentences in the article cited the ancient sources of Polybius and Livy only). Again, your concern seems to be the lacking of supporting secondary sources, which is a perfectly fine concern. Let's look at the sentence that cited Zuo Zhuan, which you are seemingly having trouble with:
"Descendants of Yuan Taotu are mentioned by name in the Zuo Zhuan as holding high office in the state of Chen"
Most Chinese encyclopedias have verified the origin of the surname, stating Yuan Taotu as the common ancestor. For example, the 1978 update of Dictionary Encyclopedia (辭源, published by The Commercial Press (台灣商務印書館) ) verifies the origins of the surname in the Yuan entry (page 1902), as it says that the Yuans are:
"(陳)胡公滿裔孫袁濤塗後。以祖字為氏。"
Which directly translates to "The descendent's of Yuan Taotu, who is the descendant grand son of Duke Hu (of Chen) Man (滿, the founder of the Chen State, which located in the present day Shandong). The descendent's used their ancestor (Yuan Taotu)'s name as their surname."
Now, let's look at the Yuan descendants that are mentioned in reference 4, and look up their names in Zuo Zhuan: 襄公三年: 陳公使袁僑 (Diplomat Yuan Qiao of Chen), 哀公十一年: 轅頗為司徒 (Yuan Po as Situ)
By the way, reference 5 (which you ignored) is a article published just couple years ago by a verified historian, and mentions: "袁涛涂,其子袁选,其孙袁颇、袁侨均为陈国上卿", which directly translates to "Yuan Taotu's son Yuan Xuan, grand sons Yuan Po and Yuan Qiao were all high officials in the State of Chen. AQu01rius ( User • Talk) 20:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) To add my opinion, I don't personally see this as original research or misuse of sources. All that the article is saying is "There were guys with this surname in these traditional sources, so clearly the name existed as a surname back then." It is not a matter of interpreting the sources, it is a matter of looking at them and saying "Hey, there is a guy with the last name of Yuan in this document, so it must have been a last name by then!" The traditional documents act as benchmarks for when the name came into use. In places where they construct even the semblance of a genealogy, the article makes it clear that the genealogy is derived from traditional stories. You might be able to find modern sources pinpointing the date more fully, but as it stands now, it is not original research.-- Danaman5 00:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how many times I must repeat this - but please read WP:NOR. It specifically says that primary sources only constitute as original research if there are statements in the article that cannot be confirmed by the primary sources. In otherwords, once again, it is only original research if it's something that an editor has came up with himself, or even if it's something that's unverifiable. You have not pointed out anything that is not supported by sources. I'll be removing the OR tag now. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 00:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Now you have clarified that it would be a better idea to cite Vernacular Chinese translations. That's fine (although it's not a necessary case here, because the classic text references used here are fairly straight forward if you have a standard knowledge of Chinese). However, if you have read the references carefully, the Zuo Zhuan which reference 4 cited is a annotated, edited version of Zuo Zhuan published by a famous Chinese historian named Yang Bojun in 1981 (verified and annotated in Vernacular Chinese, of course), and is used as the standard version in many Chinese universities. If that doesn't satisfy your requirement, we would be happy to cite a Vernacular Chinese version for that reference. If you have no other valid concerns, the OR tag really have no other reason to stay (We already had third parties outside of Chinese editors, unless your definition of third party is someone that agrees with you). AQu01rius ( User • Talk) 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
A clear distinction between primary sources and secondary sources does not exist. If you use the Zuo Zhuan to discuss events that far preceded the Zuo Zhuan, then the Zuo Zhuan can be interpreted as a secondary source. If you use the Zuo Zhuan to discuss the Zuo Zhuan itself or events contemporaneous with it, then it serves as a primary source. As with any source subject to controversy, it should be noted in the text itself. If you want to study what happened in the state of Lu during the Spring and Autumn period, then the Zuo Zhuan is the best you've got. The court records and oral traditions were the primary source material; whoever compiled the Zuo Zhuan already did the original research. If you want to study how Confucius purposely altered historical records for didactic purpose, then the text contained in the Zuo Zhuan, when compared to other records serves as a primary source. Your research is on the Zuo Zhuan itself. The same goes for the Shiji: Sima Qian has been called a historian; he spent his life doing historical research. If your question is about events prior to his own time, then Shiji is a secondary source. If your question is about Chinese historiography on the Shiji or the person Sima Qian, then Shiji is a primary source. Age of the material used only matters in relation to the actual events being discussed. Being old does not make something a primary source.
All historical research consists of fitting bits and pieces of material into one coherent piece. In many ways, writing a encyclopedia article is no different from regular historical research. What you gain from secondary source material (the work of historians) is not only coherence and concision, but interpretation. What we need to avoid in Wikipedia is interpretation of fact, not statement of fact itself. Or else every article constitutes original research.
I really don't see a problem with the sources as they are used in this article.-- Jiang 10:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
So, gentlemen, I took some time off to browse Academia Sinica's on-line database of Chinese classics, it was very interesting. It was very difficult to find basis for some of the factual as well as the interpretive claims that this article base on the classics. So here are some questions:
Where does the Zuozhuan say that:
Are these claims based on the text itself, on commentaries, or other literature? If these claims are based on the Zuozhuan, give me a reference to the text, which juan and which year. If these claims are based on commentaries, please refer us to who first made the claim.
Further, where does Sima Qian corroborate the claims that:
I also have a more general question:
I can probably come up with a number of further questions, but I wanted to begin with these. My questions are based on a quick browse of the concerned texts and I may have used the wrong search terms, so I may very well have gotten it wrong. But if no one can come up with any credible evidence, I presume I can delete the above claims from the article within say 48 hours - if we are to stick to the time limits for responses that have been established on this talk page. Only kidding.-- Niohe 23:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I have addressed your questions by adding references where necessary. Most of the traditional account of the origin of the surname is contained in a specific chapter of the Xin Tang shu. The account of the spread of the surname comes predominantly from Yuan Yida and Zhang Cheng's Zhongguo xing shi. Further, I've edited some of the sentences slightly.
As I see it, your questions focus on the lack of referencing, and not the original research issue, which is why I've removed the OR tag. Should you find any other statements unreferenced, please let me know. Yeu Ninje 03:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I just got my hands on Zhongguo xingshi and it looks like an interesting, but problematic source.
First, I make the seemingly trivial observation that one of the authors has the surname Yuan and hails from Fenghua. Is this a pure coincidence, Yeu Ninjie? I am asking because if you have given prominence to a publication of people you know or are related to, there may be a conflict of interest. Just asking.
Second, I notice that none of the two authors are historians, but geneticists and who seem to make a sociobiological interpretation of Chinese history. While I am not comptenent to comment on their numerical analysis of Chinese surname data, I note that there are no notes or footnotes at all in the four pages that cover the surname Yuan. It is very hard to know, for instance, how they came up with a figure that 0.33 per cent of China had the surname Yuan during the Song dynasty (p. 196). It seems that they are using mathematical and statistical models to extrapolate data backwards, but where they got their data from is unclear and there are no data sets other than the results. Is there any scholarly consensus on the validity of these models and their findings? Furthermore, when looking at the bibliography, I also notice that they make absolutely no reference to many important works on historical demography.
These are my impressions based on a quick read and I may be wrong. Please let me know what you think.-- Niohe 23:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
...and then we'll have a revert war. Not fun. Could you explain why you think this book is OK? I see several red flags in this book and I'm reluctant to give it publicity before we see any scholarly consensus emerging.-- Niohe 02:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You're basically saying it is credible because it is credible. Look, I have no problem with their data on distribution on surnames in China, which is well documented in the book and seems to be its major contribution. But see a big problem with an author who says that he is able to tell how many people had a certain surname during the Song or Yuan dynasty just on the basis of a mathematical extrapolation. We just don't have the data to be able to say that.-- Niohe 02:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You didn't comment on the substance in my post. It's fine, I will edit and delete as I see fit, and you can catch up. But please don't defend a source you haven't even bothered to look at by referring to the publisher. That won't take you anywhere.-- Niohe 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
...and that is your personal opinion - based on not having looked at the book and an appeal to authority. Very credible indeed. Next time, you are going to ask me for proof that they are wrong. I wonder if what other cards you have in your sleeve? Just pick and choose!-- Niohe 05:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I have been late to this discussion - I've been preoccupied with work. As far as I know, Yuan Yida is a distant relative of mine, but I don't think that's relevant to this discussion. He is recognised as the foremost authority on Chinese surnames in the world. That is no exaggeration. As Hong Qi Gong has mentioned, he has been widely quoted by both Chinese and non-Chinese media sources, and has had academic experience in both Chinese and Western universities (including a period at Stanford). I certainly haven't given undue prominence to him. Like you, Niohe, I'm not sure where the authors of Zhongguo xingshi sourced their data from. I assume it's an estimate of some sort. It's not uncommon for Chinese academics writing a book for the general readership not to reference their sources. Like Hong Qi Gong, I assume the information in this book is accurate because it is written by two respected researchers, and because it is published by a major academic institution. I don't think it's our role to question the reliability of this type of source within the article because that would truly be a case of original research. As long as information comes from generally credible sources, it is not our role to make such judgments as to their accuracy. Let the readers themselves read the book and judge for themselves. Yeu Ninje 09:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Look, it is quite difficult to have a serious discussion if you only respond to part of what I said. I am a challenging the reliability of this book as a source on Chinese history, since the authors of the book are not qualified in the field of history. They are researchers in genetics and it appears that they do not even have PhDs as you claimed. Publication at university press is not a criteria for inclusion in and by itself. Was the book peer reviewed, for instance? Has the book been quoted by historians? You have to come up with something better than this and please stop shifting the burden of proof.-- Niohe 18:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Besides, I think you said that the book was written by PhDs. What is your evidence for that?
This is getting ridiculous. If you want to disagree with me, make sure that you know what we are disagreeing about. I have never challenged Yuan Yida's competence as a geneticist or said that articles on surnames should only be based on sources from academically trained historians.
My challenge is specifically directed towards Yuan Yida's extraordinary (and essentially unsourced) claims about the history of Chinese surnames, and exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I have already voiced my reservations about Yuan Yida's methods and it is not my job to refute him. It is up to you or anyone else who want to use Yuan as a source on Chinese history to find a couple of credible academic sources that specifically endorse his findings, then we have someting that looks like a scholarly consensus. I would advice you to find a couple of book reviews or citations. Not just one, but a couple. Random quotes from the press won't do, I'm afraid.-- Niohe 23:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Still no response? Anyway, I was going through some databases and I found extremely little on Yuan Yida's research. That is an interesting fact by itself. I did find a reference to Yuan in Frank Dikötter's article "Racial Discourse in China" in The Construction of Racial Identities in China and Japan: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives (1998). On page 30, note 55, in this article, Yuan Yida's studies on genetics and surnames are cited as an example of how racialized Han Chinese identity has become in PRC scholarship. Hardly an approving citation, to say the least. This is the only reference from a prominent historian that I have found on Yuan Yida. Now the ball is in your court.-- Niohe 02:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, discussion is over. I will start editing the text now, please let me know if I am doing anything that is not in conformity with the sources quoted.-- Niohe 05:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the not verified tag is still up on the Origins of the surname section. Niohe, will you please state what statements in that section are not verified? Surely you've had enough time to do that, and to obtain a second opinion on the original research issue. Otherwise, please take the tag down. Yeu Ninje 09:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
元 袁 are both common family names.-- 刻意(Kèyì) 18:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | Yuan (surname) is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 12, 2005. | |||||||||||||||
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Current status: Former featured article |
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
There is a proposal to create a precedent that names are not encyclopedic. Articles about names regularly show up on various deletion pages and are summarily deleted. Perhaps - since you've been working on an article about a name, you hold a different opinion that you'd like to express. Please do: Wikipedia:Deletion policy/names and surnames SchmuckyTheCat 17:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
For this article, I've found it impossible to explain the the historical origins of the Yuan name, and variations of the character to write the surname, without using Chinese characters. Some uses may not be understood by an English reader without knowledge of Chinese, so I've confined these to the footnotes. For example:
-- Yu Ninjie 10:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
(copied from User talk:Yu Ninjie)
That article was very well written. I don't know if I was any help--I copyedited a bit but I'm no expert so I don't know if its fair to say I did a peer review (I don't know the rules of Wikipedia peer review anyway)...yet in reality I don't think there are that many experts on Chinese surnames here (or even on zh wiki for that matter!). Is Yuan your surname (in Mandarin)? Come to think of it, can we add the pronunciations in other dialects? Were you the anon 211.26.149.129 who created the article. Again, great job. -- Dpr 06:05, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Everything I said is completely pointless in light of your revisions. It's extremely clear at this stange. Excellent work on your second (and subsequent) passes since the other day. One question: you may want to have a go at tidying/harmonizing Yuan on List_of_common_Chinese_surnames. Additionally, have you see the ancestral home article--it may be useful, and in either case, maybe you'd be interested in helping spruce it up. Thanks and kudos. Peace, Dpr 10:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Converted to the Chicago romanization, is it? :) Anyway, thank you so much for your kind assistance at ancestral home. Haha--as you probably know, the term "hometown" is probably overused in English translations of Chinese, or by Chinese speakers of English, but maybe it's just a cultural artifact and couldn't/shouldn't be rectified. Not to say other other features of Sino-English oughtn't be corrected :) Good luck in your future endeavors. If I know anyone who can help with finding those transliterations, I'll send them your way. All the best, Dpr 03:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if it is worth a mention that the very popular Vietnamese surname, Nguyễn, would sound like Yuan in Chinese? Not very related, I suppose. -- KittySaturn 02:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
seems to be some vandalism here - the section on adoption by non-Han, for example
Also, the caption under the seal image.
-And also someone adding "ain't
Ernie but..."
I glanced through this article and it seems to be based partly on original research, which seems to have eluded those editors who made this article a featured one. For instance, I see several references to dynastic histories and Confucian classics such as Zuozhuan. These are primary source material for the study of ancient China and Wikipedia is not the place to publish original thought on Chinese genealogy. I am loath to delete things and ruin the article, so I hope that someone with access to credible academic secondary literature can overcome this serious shortcoming.-- Niohe 02:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I hope User:Khoikhoi does not mind me quoting him, but here is what he posted on my user page:
According to WP policy, the interpretation of primary sources such as Chinese classics is indeed considered original research. Though it is sometims useful to quote such sources, normally their interpretation should be left to professional scholars. WP then reports on their work (secondary sources).
So, while I have no problem moving the tag up or down, do not remove it! Instead come up with some secondary sources for this article.-- Niohe 03:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The Yuan Surname Study Website states that Zuo Zhan indicates this claim. Under 陽夏世系:
The editors may have translated this information from the Chinese article. Is this the correct/appropriate source? ian-Kiu-Biu 04:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
AQu01rius ( User • Talk) 06:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The mere assertion of original research here seems to be that the sources are really old. As stated by WP:NOR, ...For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source... Failing this, a statement might be considered original research. Now - exactly what parts of the article don't you (Niohe) think agree with the primary source? I don't recall you've mentioned any at all. Just the fact that the sources are old does not make it original research. This is what I've kept repeating - original research means original work that WP editor has came up with. In the case of primary sources, this would occur if what is written on WP does not concur with the primary sources. So what exactly do you think is original research? Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 06:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe one of the external link now provides references with traditional sources used. ian-Kiu-Biu 03:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
You are still refusing to quote a specific section which you think is inappropriate, and how. I am not sure if your saying that using ancient sources to write any sort of claim is wrong - even if it's merely descriptive (which is acceptable AND strongly encouraged according to WP:NOR). I don't know if you are familiar with Greek-Roman history FA articles, but many of them contains reasonable amount of "original research" according to your policy (such as Roman-Spartan War, which many part of the sentences in the article cited the ancient sources of Polybius and Livy only). Again, your concern seems to be the lacking of supporting secondary sources, which is a perfectly fine concern. Let's look at the sentence that cited Zuo Zhuan, which you are seemingly having trouble with:
"Descendants of Yuan Taotu are mentioned by name in the Zuo Zhuan as holding high office in the state of Chen"
Most Chinese encyclopedias have verified the origin of the surname, stating Yuan Taotu as the common ancestor. For example, the 1978 update of Dictionary Encyclopedia (辭源, published by The Commercial Press (台灣商務印書館) ) verifies the origins of the surname in the Yuan entry (page 1902), as it says that the Yuans are:
"(陳)胡公滿裔孫袁濤塗後。以祖字為氏。"
Which directly translates to "The descendent's of Yuan Taotu, who is the descendant grand son of Duke Hu (of Chen) Man (滿, the founder of the Chen State, which located in the present day Shandong). The descendent's used their ancestor (Yuan Taotu)'s name as their surname."
Now, let's look at the Yuan descendants that are mentioned in reference 4, and look up their names in Zuo Zhuan: 襄公三年: 陳公使袁僑 (Diplomat Yuan Qiao of Chen), 哀公十一年: 轅頗為司徒 (Yuan Po as Situ)
By the way, reference 5 (which you ignored) is a article published just couple years ago by a verified historian, and mentions: "袁涛涂,其子袁选,其孙袁颇、袁侨均为陈国上卿", which directly translates to "Yuan Taotu's son Yuan Xuan, grand sons Yuan Po and Yuan Qiao were all high officials in the State of Chen. AQu01rius ( User • Talk) 20:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) To add my opinion, I don't personally see this as original research or misuse of sources. All that the article is saying is "There were guys with this surname in these traditional sources, so clearly the name existed as a surname back then." It is not a matter of interpreting the sources, it is a matter of looking at them and saying "Hey, there is a guy with the last name of Yuan in this document, so it must have been a last name by then!" The traditional documents act as benchmarks for when the name came into use. In places where they construct even the semblance of a genealogy, the article makes it clear that the genealogy is derived from traditional stories. You might be able to find modern sources pinpointing the date more fully, but as it stands now, it is not original research.-- Danaman5 00:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how many times I must repeat this - but please read WP:NOR. It specifically says that primary sources only constitute as original research if there are statements in the article that cannot be confirmed by the primary sources. In otherwords, once again, it is only original research if it's something that an editor has came up with himself, or even if it's something that's unverifiable. You have not pointed out anything that is not supported by sources. I'll be removing the OR tag now. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 00:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Now you have clarified that it would be a better idea to cite Vernacular Chinese translations. That's fine (although it's not a necessary case here, because the classic text references used here are fairly straight forward if you have a standard knowledge of Chinese). However, if you have read the references carefully, the Zuo Zhuan which reference 4 cited is a annotated, edited version of Zuo Zhuan published by a famous Chinese historian named Yang Bojun in 1981 (verified and annotated in Vernacular Chinese, of course), and is used as the standard version in many Chinese universities. If that doesn't satisfy your requirement, we would be happy to cite a Vernacular Chinese version for that reference. If you have no other valid concerns, the OR tag really have no other reason to stay (We already had third parties outside of Chinese editors, unless your definition of third party is someone that agrees with you). AQu01rius ( User • Talk) 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
A clear distinction between primary sources and secondary sources does not exist. If you use the Zuo Zhuan to discuss events that far preceded the Zuo Zhuan, then the Zuo Zhuan can be interpreted as a secondary source. If you use the Zuo Zhuan to discuss the Zuo Zhuan itself or events contemporaneous with it, then it serves as a primary source. As with any source subject to controversy, it should be noted in the text itself. If you want to study what happened in the state of Lu during the Spring and Autumn period, then the Zuo Zhuan is the best you've got. The court records and oral traditions were the primary source material; whoever compiled the Zuo Zhuan already did the original research. If you want to study how Confucius purposely altered historical records for didactic purpose, then the text contained in the Zuo Zhuan, when compared to other records serves as a primary source. Your research is on the Zuo Zhuan itself. The same goes for the Shiji: Sima Qian has been called a historian; he spent his life doing historical research. If your question is about events prior to his own time, then Shiji is a secondary source. If your question is about Chinese historiography on the Shiji or the person Sima Qian, then Shiji is a primary source. Age of the material used only matters in relation to the actual events being discussed. Being old does not make something a primary source.
All historical research consists of fitting bits and pieces of material into one coherent piece. In many ways, writing a encyclopedia article is no different from regular historical research. What you gain from secondary source material (the work of historians) is not only coherence and concision, but interpretation. What we need to avoid in Wikipedia is interpretation of fact, not statement of fact itself. Or else every article constitutes original research.
I really don't see a problem with the sources as they are used in this article.-- Jiang 10:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
So, gentlemen, I took some time off to browse Academia Sinica's on-line database of Chinese classics, it was very interesting. It was very difficult to find basis for some of the factual as well as the interpretive claims that this article base on the classics. So here are some questions:
Where does the Zuozhuan say that:
Are these claims based on the text itself, on commentaries, or other literature? If these claims are based on the Zuozhuan, give me a reference to the text, which juan and which year. If these claims are based on commentaries, please refer us to who first made the claim.
Further, where does Sima Qian corroborate the claims that:
I also have a more general question:
I can probably come up with a number of further questions, but I wanted to begin with these. My questions are based on a quick browse of the concerned texts and I may have used the wrong search terms, so I may very well have gotten it wrong. But if no one can come up with any credible evidence, I presume I can delete the above claims from the article within say 48 hours - if we are to stick to the time limits for responses that have been established on this talk page. Only kidding.-- Niohe 23:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I have addressed your questions by adding references where necessary. Most of the traditional account of the origin of the surname is contained in a specific chapter of the Xin Tang shu. The account of the spread of the surname comes predominantly from Yuan Yida and Zhang Cheng's Zhongguo xing shi. Further, I've edited some of the sentences slightly.
As I see it, your questions focus on the lack of referencing, and not the original research issue, which is why I've removed the OR tag. Should you find any other statements unreferenced, please let me know. Yeu Ninje 03:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I just got my hands on Zhongguo xingshi and it looks like an interesting, but problematic source.
First, I make the seemingly trivial observation that one of the authors has the surname Yuan and hails from Fenghua. Is this a pure coincidence, Yeu Ninjie? I am asking because if you have given prominence to a publication of people you know or are related to, there may be a conflict of interest. Just asking.
Second, I notice that none of the two authors are historians, but geneticists and who seem to make a sociobiological interpretation of Chinese history. While I am not comptenent to comment on their numerical analysis of Chinese surname data, I note that there are no notes or footnotes at all in the four pages that cover the surname Yuan. It is very hard to know, for instance, how they came up with a figure that 0.33 per cent of China had the surname Yuan during the Song dynasty (p. 196). It seems that they are using mathematical and statistical models to extrapolate data backwards, but where they got their data from is unclear and there are no data sets other than the results. Is there any scholarly consensus on the validity of these models and their findings? Furthermore, when looking at the bibliography, I also notice that they make absolutely no reference to many important works on historical demography.
These are my impressions based on a quick read and I may be wrong. Please let me know what you think.-- Niohe 23:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
...and then we'll have a revert war. Not fun. Could you explain why you think this book is OK? I see several red flags in this book and I'm reluctant to give it publicity before we see any scholarly consensus emerging.-- Niohe 02:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You're basically saying it is credible because it is credible. Look, I have no problem with their data on distribution on surnames in China, which is well documented in the book and seems to be its major contribution. But see a big problem with an author who says that he is able to tell how many people had a certain surname during the Song or Yuan dynasty just on the basis of a mathematical extrapolation. We just don't have the data to be able to say that.-- Niohe 02:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You didn't comment on the substance in my post. It's fine, I will edit and delete as I see fit, and you can catch up. But please don't defend a source you haven't even bothered to look at by referring to the publisher. That won't take you anywhere.-- Niohe 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
...and that is your personal opinion - based on not having looked at the book and an appeal to authority. Very credible indeed. Next time, you are going to ask me for proof that they are wrong. I wonder if what other cards you have in your sleeve? Just pick and choose!-- Niohe 05:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I have been late to this discussion - I've been preoccupied with work. As far as I know, Yuan Yida is a distant relative of mine, but I don't think that's relevant to this discussion. He is recognised as the foremost authority on Chinese surnames in the world. That is no exaggeration. As Hong Qi Gong has mentioned, he has been widely quoted by both Chinese and non-Chinese media sources, and has had academic experience in both Chinese and Western universities (including a period at Stanford). I certainly haven't given undue prominence to him. Like you, Niohe, I'm not sure where the authors of Zhongguo xingshi sourced their data from. I assume it's an estimate of some sort. It's not uncommon for Chinese academics writing a book for the general readership not to reference their sources. Like Hong Qi Gong, I assume the information in this book is accurate because it is written by two respected researchers, and because it is published by a major academic institution. I don't think it's our role to question the reliability of this type of source within the article because that would truly be a case of original research. As long as information comes from generally credible sources, it is not our role to make such judgments as to their accuracy. Let the readers themselves read the book and judge for themselves. Yeu Ninje 09:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Look, it is quite difficult to have a serious discussion if you only respond to part of what I said. I am a challenging the reliability of this book as a source on Chinese history, since the authors of the book are not qualified in the field of history. They are researchers in genetics and it appears that they do not even have PhDs as you claimed. Publication at university press is not a criteria for inclusion in and by itself. Was the book peer reviewed, for instance? Has the book been quoted by historians? You have to come up with something better than this and please stop shifting the burden of proof.-- Niohe 18:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Besides, I think you said that the book was written by PhDs. What is your evidence for that?
This is getting ridiculous. If you want to disagree with me, make sure that you know what we are disagreeing about. I have never challenged Yuan Yida's competence as a geneticist or said that articles on surnames should only be based on sources from academically trained historians.
My challenge is specifically directed towards Yuan Yida's extraordinary (and essentially unsourced) claims about the history of Chinese surnames, and exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I have already voiced my reservations about Yuan Yida's methods and it is not my job to refute him. It is up to you or anyone else who want to use Yuan as a source on Chinese history to find a couple of credible academic sources that specifically endorse his findings, then we have someting that looks like a scholarly consensus. I would advice you to find a couple of book reviews or citations. Not just one, but a couple. Random quotes from the press won't do, I'm afraid.-- Niohe 23:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Still no response? Anyway, I was going through some databases and I found extremely little on Yuan Yida's research. That is an interesting fact by itself. I did find a reference to Yuan in Frank Dikötter's article "Racial Discourse in China" in The Construction of Racial Identities in China and Japan: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives (1998). On page 30, note 55, in this article, Yuan Yida's studies on genetics and surnames are cited as an example of how racialized Han Chinese identity has become in PRC scholarship. Hardly an approving citation, to say the least. This is the only reference from a prominent historian that I have found on Yuan Yida. Now the ball is in your court.-- Niohe 02:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, discussion is over. I will start editing the text now, please let me know if I am doing anything that is not in conformity with the sources quoted.-- Niohe 05:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the not verified tag is still up on the Origins of the surname section. Niohe, will you please state what statements in that section are not verified? Surely you've had enough time to do that, and to obtain a second opinion on the original research issue. Otherwise, please take the tag down. Yeu Ninje 09:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
元 袁 are both common family names.-- 刻意(Kèyì) 18:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
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