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I would like to change the title of this article from "Yoruba traditional art" to "Yoruba art." The term "traditional" suggests a antiquated, static tradition, whereas many of the modes of art practice described in this article are still alive in contemporary Yoruba art-making practice. Even if that were not the case, I would advocate to change the title to Yoruba Traditional Art, but I believe a more inclusive title will better serve the content of this article.-- Alexandrathom ( talk) 16:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
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The communities who reside on the continent of Africa aren’t “sub” to anyone or anything, and that includes the Sahara.
Now let’s explore the sentence that was corrected,
“Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa”
This is an accurate statement in its own right, therefore there’s really no need to add any derogatory terminology neither in-front of that, nor behinds this statement as we have already determined this to be factual.
Secondly, as point out earlier, the term “sub Sahara” is absurd, wrong and is as well recognised as a vicious allegory.
This is an open challenge to anyone who insists that the absurd prefix is to be added to the factual statement, for them to provide the rationale behind it.
I’ve left you a message on the Talk:Yoruba art
There’s really no need to start an editing war, you are in the wrong and you know it.
Kindly explain to us who it is that belongs to the continent you newly created?
As far as I’m aware, there’s no continent named sub-Sahara.
That term is absurd, wrong and frankly border line bigoted.
Otelemuyen ( talk) 17:32, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
You’re wrong to call any African the derogatory term “sub Sahara” and I can prove it to you right here, right now.
Instead of war editing, reply here or on the articles talk page.
No they don’t Otelemuyen ( talk) 18:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Don’t you get it?
The term sub-Sahara is absurd, wrong and a vicious allegory.
Again, the communities who reside in the continent of Africa aren’t “sub” to anyone or anything, and that includes the Sahara. Otelemuyen ( talk) 18:12, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Kindly Answer this question.
Is the statement that reads “ Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”
Is that statement true or false? 18:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Kindly Answer this question.
Is the statement that reads “ Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”
In your opinion, is that statement true or false?
This is a message Ficaia, kindly come and discuss your absurd terminology here.
Should the first sentence of Yoruba art#History end in the word Africa, or in the phrase sub-Saharan Africa? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Above, MassiveEartha raises some points that I think are worth discussing in more depth. To take the last point first, the idea of simply deleting the sentence (although the source cited for the sentence after it applies to both sentences) is something that has occurred to me as well. I would not object to doing it that way, with perhaps a more narrowly-worded, and less closely paraphrased, summary sentence based on that source taking its place.
The larger issue, however, is whether or not the term "sub-Saharan" is racist or arbitrary. If one looks at the talk section just above the RfC, this was the view of another editor whose edit warring over the issue prompted me to start this RfC. I found it interesting to read those three sources, to get their perspective on the matter. However, I also feel that we need to stay on the right side of WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:RGW. It's true, based on those three citations, that there is a point-of-view that "sub-Saharan" is a term that should be discarded. However, NPOV requires us to follow the preponderance of reliable sources, and it looks to me like the three cited ones do not reflect the preponderance of views. We have a page on Sub-Saharan Africa, and it uses that term (with a criticism paragraph at the end of the Nomenclature section), as do numerous other pages in Category:Sub-Saharan Africa. It would take a more extensive RfC than the one here to deprecate the term across Wikipedia, and it would require a better reason than RGW. As noted by editors above, we are unlikely to find sourcing that would place Yoruba art's impact above those of all other African cultures in such a way as to justify just saying "Africa" in the sentence. I see that our page on Yoruba people locates them in West Africa, which is a region designated by the African Union. However, that term covers a much smaller part of the continent than "sub-Saharan" does, so whereas "Africa" without a qualifier may overstate what sources say, "West Africa" may understate it. Finally, it's worth noting that, although sometimes the prefix "sub" denotes inferiority, as in "subpar", it does not generally do so. Being physically located under something else does not equate to being inferior in quality to it. Words such as submarine, subscript, subcutaneous tissue, and so forth abound. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion: Perhaps we can make the RfC question moot, and simultaneously fix the problem of a direct-copy quote from the source, by changing the sentence entirely. I suggest that we change the current: Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in
sub-Saharan Africa.
to something like: Yoruba culture and art reached a high level of sophistication, enabled by an abundance of natural resources.
Thoughts? --
Tryptofish (
talk)
22:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
The RfC should be closed – after the bot removes the RfC notice, which hasn't happened yet – by an uninvolved closer. Not by anyone who has participated in this RfC (that includes me). Please, no one should try to implement any version of the language on their own. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 17:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2023 and 2 May 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
NevaehSenob (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Coryannyyz ( talk) 14:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2023 and 28 April 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
AdriN070,
Cmagada20,
Talliejoy (
article contribs). Peer reviewers:
Smancione,
AbigailLynnArts,
ScoutB12,
Sneakyninja12.
— Assignment last updated by ScoutB12 ( talk) 20:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I would like to change the title of this article from "Yoruba traditional art" to "Yoruba art." The term "traditional" suggests a antiquated, static tradition, whereas many of the modes of art practice described in this article are still alive in contemporary Yoruba art-making practice. Even if that were not the case, I would advocate to change the title to Yoruba Traditional Art, but I believe a more inclusive title will better serve the content of this article.-- Alexandrathom ( talk) 16:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
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The communities who reside on the continent of Africa aren’t “sub” to anyone or anything, and that includes the Sahara.
Now let’s explore the sentence that was corrected,
“Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa”
This is an accurate statement in its own right, therefore there’s really no need to add any derogatory terminology neither in-front of that, nor behinds this statement as we have already determined this to be factual.
Secondly, as point out earlier, the term “sub Sahara” is absurd, wrong and is as well recognised as a vicious allegory.
This is an open challenge to anyone who insists that the absurd prefix is to be added to the factual statement, for them to provide the rationale behind it.
I’ve left you a message on the Talk:Yoruba art
There’s really no need to start an editing war, you are in the wrong and you know it.
Kindly explain to us who it is that belongs to the continent you newly created?
As far as I’m aware, there’s no continent named sub-Sahara.
That term is absurd, wrong and frankly border line bigoted.
Otelemuyen ( talk) 17:32, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
You’re wrong to call any African the derogatory term “sub Sahara” and I can prove it to you right here, right now.
Instead of war editing, reply here or on the articles talk page.
No they don’t Otelemuyen ( talk) 18:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Don’t you get it?
The term sub-Sahara is absurd, wrong and a vicious allegory.
Again, the communities who reside in the continent of Africa aren’t “sub” to anyone or anything, and that includes the Sahara. Otelemuyen ( talk) 18:12, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Kindly Answer this question.
Is the statement that reads “ Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”
Is that statement true or false? 18:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Kindly Answer this question.
Is the statement that reads “ Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”
In your opinion, is that statement true or false?
This is a message Ficaia, kindly come and discuss your absurd terminology here.
Should the first sentence of Yoruba art#History end in the word Africa, or in the phrase sub-Saharan Africa? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Above, MassiveEartha raises some points that I think are worth discussing in more depth. To take the last point first, the idea of simply deleting the sentence (although the source cited for the sentence after it applies to both sentences) is something that has occurred to me as well. I would not object to doing it that way, with perhaps a more narrowly-worded, and less closely paraphrased, summary sentence based on that source taking its place.
The larger issue, however, is whether or not the term "sub-Saharan" is racist or arbitrary. If one looks at the talk section just above the RfC, this was the view of another editor whose edit warring over the issue prompted me to start this RfC. I found it interesting to read those three sources, to get their perspective on the matter. However, I also feel that we need to stay on the right side of WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:RGW. It's true, based on those three citations, that there is a point-of-view that "sub-Saharan" is a term that should be discarded. However, NPOV requires us to follow the preponderance of reliable sources, and it looks to me like the three cited ones do not reflect the preponderance of views. We have a page on Sub-Saharan Africa, and it uses that term (with a criticism paragraph at the end of the Nomenclature section), as do numerous other pages in Category:Sub-Saharan Africa. It would take a more extensive RfC than the one here to deprecate the term across Wikipedia, and it would require a better reason than RGW. As noted by editors above, we are unlikely to find sourcing that would place Yoruba art's impact above those of all other African cultures in such a way as to justify just saying "Africa" in the sentence. I see that our page on Yoruba people locates them in West Africa, which is a region designated by the African Union. However, that term covers a much smaller part of the continent than "sub-Saharan" does, so whereas "Africa" without a qualifier may overstate what sources say, "West Africa" may understate it. Finally, it's worth noting that, although sometimes the prefix "sub" denotes inferiority, as in "subpar", it does not generally do so. Being physically located under something else does not equate to being inferior in quality to it. Words such as submarine, subscript, subcutaneous tissue, and so forth abound. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion: Perhaps we can make the RfC question moot, and simultaneously fix the problem of a direct-copy quote from the source, by changing the sentence entirely. I suggest that we change the current: Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in
sub-Saharan Africa.
to something like: Yoruba culture and art reached a high level of sophistication, enabled by an abundance of natural resources.
Thoughts? --
Tryptofish (
talk)
22:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
The RfC should be closed – after the bot removes the RfC notice, which hasn't happened yet – by an uninvolved closer. Not by anyone who has participated in this RfC (that includes me). Please, no one should try to implement any version of the language on their own. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 17:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2023 and 2 May 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
NevaehSenob (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Coryannyyz ( talk) 14:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2023 and 28 April 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
AdriN070,
Cmagada20,
Talliejoy (
article contribs). Peer reviewers:
Smancione,
AbigailLynnArts,
ScoutB12,
Sneakyninja12.
— Assignment last updated by ScoutB12 ( talk) 20:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)