Disambiguation | ||||
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Discussion moved to main article Yonsei ( Occidentalist ( talk) 11:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)).
Yonsei (disambiguation) → Yonsei — To revert undiscussed page move. As there is no agreement on what is the primary topic (see Talk:Yonsei), the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title without "(disambiguation)" per WP:DABNAME. — Kusunose 16:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
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A priori, it seems to me that Taemyr's analysis of the disputed issues and contending points-of-view at Talk:Yonsei#Primary Topic is generally congruent with the comment posted above by AndrewHowse, e.g., "Which page that should be at Yonsei is governed by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC." This approach is appealing. I need more time to figure out how to articulate my misgivings or to dismiss them as unhelpful.
A crucial step forward seems potentially acceptable to all participants in the discussion threads -- that the disambiguation page will be renamed without objection as Yonsei (disambiguation), similar to Harvard (disambiguation) and Yale (disambiguation) ... which now reveals a distilled locus of dispute, i.e.,
I think this formulation of the problem goes to what has always been Caspian blue's unspoken objectives.
I have misgivings about the concepts of "precedence" and "more important" in this context; and any sentence construction which incorporates these terms becomes a loaded question. -- Tenmei ( talk) 21:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
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help)Comment. As an outsider to this discussion so far, it appears to me that "Yonsei" and "Yonsei University" are two separate topics, and therefore WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not relevant. Unless Yonsei University is commonly referred to as just "Yonsei" (is it?) and could plausibly use that single word as the title for its article, I don't see a problem with using "Yonsei" for the article about Japanese emigrant descendents, with an appropriate hatnote to Yonsei (disambiguation) for other articles whose titles also include the word. Station1 ( talk) 09:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The unwelcome, precipitous and untimely page move by Occadentalist caused a disruption of the talk page threads. In my view, the most important thread was succinctly summarized by Taemyr who wrote:
It appears to me that Yonsei University and Yosei are two distinct and unrelated topics. It would appear that little or no confusion is caused by the fact that each topic exists simultaneously and in unrelated contexts. At best, I would have understood these two subjects as something of an "apples-and-oranges" array for which no common denominator is easily discernible -- nor would I have grasped intuitively that there was a pressing need for a "primary topic" to help distinguish between them. In other words, this controversy is deemed of interest only in with Wikipedia context. This "problem" does not arise on its own.
In my view, there is no need "to count the number of angels on the head of a pin" or to go through any other similarly extended contortions in order to resolve what is essentially a non-issue. This is resolved quite simply by returning to the status quo ante of November 6th in which there were two unrelated articles linked only by reciprocal hatnotes at the top of each page -- Yonsei University and Yonsei are able to exist independently, side-by-side, with no need for controversy or competition.
I present a distilled locus of dispute, i.e.,
I think this formulation of the problem goes to what has always been Caspian blue's unspoken objectives. An cursory review Caspian blue's disputes at WP:AN/I and edits which have been less prominently developed lends credence to this unwelcome proposition. Wishing that this were not so does little to make it diminish as an insoluble dilemma.
Taemyr posits a more diplomatic proposition: "It is not an issue about a Japanese word vs. a Korean word. The issue is about the English word."
Undoubtedly Taemyr describes an hortatory ideal, but Caspian blue's edit history across an array of articles does not provide support for the notion that this is what the prime mover of this dispute believes or seeks to achieve.
Expressed in different words, the quandry Taemyr proposes is not demonstrable across the span of Caspian blue's edits. [If it is necessary to present diffs which inform this conclusory statement, I will invest in follow-up with further research, but I am understandably unwilling to do so without some prodding.]
Setting aside the intractable inconvenience of harsh reality and deciding to adopt Taemyr's articulation is a wholesome step away from controversy: If we tentatively accept Taemyr's formulation as axiomatic, then the artificial "primary topic" is revealed in a context of corollaries. Yonsei is then identifiable as an essential and integral extension of a set of Japanese terms which has already been accepted and integrated into the corpus of the English language.
Yonsei should be accepted as the Wikipedia primary topic for philological reasons. The term evolves naturally out of the following context:
Immigrant -- plural and singular
Emigrant
Yonsei should be accepted as the Wikipedia primary topic for political reasons. Politics consists of "social relations involving authority or power" [1] and refers to the regulation of a political unit, [2] and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply policy. [3]
The US and Canadian governments officially apologized to the Issei, Nisei and Sansei internees of World War II; and significant reparations payments were made to survivors in 1988. This came about largely as the consequence of political and legal actions undertaken by the Sansei who construed the wartime events as violations of civil rights rather than merely racial discrimination. Those who pushed for this acknowledgement of past wrongs were specifically motivated, in part, to affect the progeny of the internees, i.e., the Yonsei.
Yonsei should be accepted as the Wikipedia primary topic for sociological reasons.
The trans-generational labelling is a distinctive feature of Japanese emigrant or Nikkei communities. This noteworthy phenomenon is found in a majority of national Nikkei communities in North and South America; but, curiously, it is not a feature of the way Japanese Britons view themselves. It is less marked in post-War Australia than in North America and in Latin America.
In addition, the official governmental intervention in cross-generational relationships and in the family structures of the Issei, Nisei, and Sansei has been studied as a unique sociological phenomenon. The sociological and psychological sequelae are demonstrably distinct from what has been studied in other immigrant experiences not similarly affected by officially-sanctions disruption. The expectation that Yonsei would be largely unaffected by these phenomenon has been shown to be somewhat inaacurate. The group effects of the extremely active involvement in political and legal activities of the Samsei -- not to mention the surprising extent of their political and legal successes -- have produced unanticipated consequence amongst their children.
The unprecedented publicity surrounding the political and legal successes of the American and Canadian Nikkei have affected the Nikkei in Latin American Nikkei communities. [It is to be inferred (but not yet proven by credible published sources) that in due course, an effect will be noted, studied, and published in credible sources.]
For the reasons presented above, Yonsei -- the Japanese generational emigrant term which is commonly used in English-speaking North American countries, in Spanish-speaking Latin American countries, and in Portuguese-speaking Brazil should be understood as a "primary topic".
The presumptive argument that anyone will be confused or unable to locate the Korean university in Seoul --
Yonsei University -- is unavailing. The fact that an internet search for "Yonsei" produces more hits having to do with the university is interesting, but not compelling in this Wikipedia context. --
Tenmei (
talk)
22:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Dear Tenmei ( talk · contribs), That arbitrary conclusion is what you want to believe without plausible arguments. Yonsei generation is only interesting subject to some a few like you, Japanese. Most of my native-English friends don't know about what "yonsei generation" or "Nikkei" means. Therefore, we should present "evidences" for our claim and I did present the evidence from Google search/book/scholar/news. So you should convince people that the Japanese term is prevailing over Yonsei University in real usages of English but you still have kept failing to prove that. You're keeping only resorting to the implausible rhetoric and ramblings. WP:PRIME clearly states three standards to decide a primary topic. According to it, Yonsei University has been proven so. Besides, Nikkei automatically reminds people of the "Japanese stock market", not Japanese diaspora unlike your assertion. You're trying the Japanese term, Yonsei to take a free ride on the Issei and Nissei. Still, the article is not differentiated from Sansei the post generation from WW2 at all. Present your arguments clearly. Funny, how do you prove that the Yonsei generation is "more interesting subject" to general readers? No more nonsense, please? -- Caspian blue 22:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
References
Caspian blue -- My interest here is in raising the level of dispute; and that means
Neither the quality of Wikipedia articles nor the level of dispute is enhanced by innuendo, not by derision, not by attempting to be offensive, confrontational, inflammatory, provocative ... and your recent edits give me cause to worry that somehow I might have failed inform you in terms that are clear, plain, unambiguous? -- Tenmei ( talk) 15:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
If Yonsei University is really one of the most prestigious universities in South Korea, then it is possible that other than the hospital and the medical journal, other organisations and schools attached to it may also be notable enough for their own articles and would belong on this dab page. One example might be the Yonsei Annals [2]. There may be other topics that are unrelated directly to both the university and the generation of Japanese American - for example the Yonsei-Yale Isochrones [3]. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Disambiguation | ||||
|
Discussion moved to main article Yonsei ( Occidentalist ( talk) 11:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)).
Yonsei (disambiguation) → Yonsei — To revert undiscussed page move. As there is no agreement on what is the primary topic (see Talk:Yonsei), the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title without "(disambiguation)" per WP:DABNAME. — Kusunose 16:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Extended content
|
---|
|
A priori, it seems to me that Taemyr's analysis of the disputed issues and contending points-of-view at Talk:Yonsei#Primary Topic is generally congruent with the comment posted above by AndrewHowse, e.g., "Which page that should be at Yonsei is governed by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC." This approach is appealing. I need more time to figure out how to articulate my misgivings or to dismiss them as unhelpful.
A crucial step forward seems potentially acceptable to all participants in the discussion threads -- that the disambiguation page will be renamed without objection as Yonsei (disambiguation), similar to Harvard (disambiguation) and Yale (disambiguation) ... which now reveals a distilled locus of dispute, i.e.,
I think this formulation of the problem goes to what has always been Caspian blue's unspoken objectives.
I have misgivings about the concepts of "precedence" and "more important" in this context; and any sentence construction which incorporates these terms becomes a loaded question. -- Tenmei ( talk) 21:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help){{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)Comment. As an outsider to this discussion so far, it appears to me that "Yonsei" and "Yonsei University" are two separate topics, and therefore WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not relevant. Unless Yonsei University is commonly referred to as just "Yonsei" (is it?) and could plausibly use that single word as the title for its article, I don't see a problem with using "Yonsei" for the article about Japanese emigrant descendents, with an appropriate hatnote to Yonsei (disambiguation) for other articles whose titles also include the word. Station1 ( talk) 09:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The unwelcome, precipitous and untimely page move by Occadentalist caused a disruption of the talk page threads. In my view, the most important thread was succinctly summarized by Taemyr who wrote:
It appears to me that Yonsei University and Yosei are two distinct and unrelated topics. It would appear that little or no confusion is caused by the fact that each topic exists simultaneously and in unrelated contexts. At best, I would have understood these two subjects as something of an "apples-and-oranges" array for which no common denominator is easily discernible -- nor would I have grasped intuitively that there was a pressing need for a "primary topic" to help distinguish between them. In other words, this controversy is deemed of interest only in with Wikipedia context. This "problem" does not arise on its own.
In my view, there is no need "to count the number of angels on the head of a pin" or to go through any other similarly extended contortions in order to resolve what is essentially a non-issue. This is resolved quite simply by returning to the status quo ante of November 6th in which there were two unrelated articles linked only by reciprocal hatnotes at the top of each page -- Yonsei University and Yonsei are able to exist independently, side-by-side, with no need for controversy or competition.
I present a distilled locus of dispute, i.e.,
I think this formulation of the problem goes to what has always been Caspian blue's unspoken objectives. An cursory review Caspian blue's disputes at WP:AN/I and edits which have been less prominently developed lends credence to this unwelcome proposition. Wishing that this were not so does little to make it diminish as an insoluble dilemma.
Taemyr posits a more diplomatic proposition: "It is not an issue about a Japanese word vs. a Korean word. The issue is about the English word."
Undoubtedly Taemyr describes an hortatory ideal, but Caspian blue's edit history across an array of articles does not provide support for the notion that this is what the prime mover of this dispute believes or seeks to achieve.
Expressed in different words, the quandry Taemyr proposes is not demonstrable across the span of Caspian blue's edits. [If it is necessary to present diffs which inform this conclusory statement, I will invest in follow-up with further research, but I am understandably unwilling to do so without some prodding.]
Setting aside the intractable inconvenience of harsh reality and deciding to adopt Taemyr's articulation is a wholesome step away from controversy: If we tentatively accept Taemyr's formulation as axiomatic, then the artificial "primary topic" is revealed in a context of corollaries. Yonsei is then identifiable as an essential and integral extension of a set of Japanese terms which has already been accepted and integrated into the corpus of the English language.
Yonsei should be accepted as the Wikipedia primary topic for philological reasons. The term evolves naturally out of the following context:
Immigrant -- plural and singular
Emigrant
Yonsei should be accepted as the Wikipedia primary topic for political reasons. Politics consists of "social relations involving authority or power" [1] and refers to the regulation of a political unit, [2] and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply policy. [3]
The US and Canadian governments officially apologized to the Issei, Nisei and Sansei internees of World War II; and significant reparations payments were made to survivors in 1988. This came about largely as the consequence of political and legal actions undertaken by the Sansei who construed the wartime events as violations of civil rights rather than merely racial discrimination. Those who pushed for this acknowledgement of past wrongs were specifically motivated, in part, to affect the progeny of the internees, i.e., the Yonsei.
Yonsei should be accepted as the Wikipedia primary topic for sociological reasons.
The trans-generational labelling is a distinctive feature of Japanese emigrant or Nikkei communities. This noteworthy phenomenon is found in a majority of national Nikkei communities in North and South America; but, curiously, it is not a feature of the way Japanese Britons view themselves. It is less marked in post-War Australia than in North America and in Latin America.
In addition, the official governmental intervention in cross-generational relationships and in the family structures of the Issei, Nisei, and Sansei has been studied as a unique sociological phenomenon. The sociological and psychological sequelae are demonstrably distinct from what has been studied in other immigrant experiences not similarly affected by officially-sanctions disruption. The expectation that Yonsei would be largely unaffected by these phenomenon has been shown to be somewhat inaacurate. The group effects of the extremely active involvement in political and legal activities of the Samsei -- not to mention the surprising extent of their political and legal successes -- have produced unanticipated consequence amongst their children.
The unprecedented publicity surrounding the political and legal successes of the American and Canadian Nikkei have affected the Nikkei in Latin American Nikkei communities. [It is to be inferred (but not yet proven by credible published sources) that in due course, an effect will be noted, studied, and published in credible sources.]
For the reasons presented above, Yonsei -- the Japanese generational emigrant term which is commonly used in English-speaking North American countries, in Spanish-speaking Latin American countries, and in Portuguese-speaking Brazil should be understood as a "primary topic".
The presumptive argument that anyone will be confused or unable to locate the Korean university in Seoul --
Yonsei University -- is unavailing. The fact that an internet search for "Yonsei" produces more hits having to do with the university is interesting, but not compelling in this Wikipedia context. --
Tenmei (
talk)
22:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Dear Tenmei ( talk · contribs), That arbitrary conclusion is what you want to believe without plausible arguments. Yonsei generation is only interesting subject to some a few like you, Japanese. Most of my native-English friends don't know about what "yonsei generation" or "Nikkei" means. Therefore, we should present "evidences" for our claim and I did present the evidence from Google search/book/scholar/news. So you should convince people that the Japanese term is prevailing over Yonsei University in real usages of English but you still have kept failing to prove that. You're keeping only resorting to the implausible rhetoric and ramblings. WP:PRIME clearly states three standards to decide a primary topic. According to it, Yonsei University has been proven so. Besides, Nikkei automatically reminds people of the "Japanese stock market", not Japanese diaspora unlike your assertion. You're trying the Japanese term, Yonsei to take a free ride on the Issei and Nissei. Still, the article is not differentiated from Sansei the post generation from WW2 at all. Present your arguments clearly. Funny, how do you prove that the Yonsei generation is "more interesting subject" to general readers? No more nonsense, please? -- Caspian blue 22:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
References
Caspian blue -- My interest here is in raising the level of dispute; and that means
Neither the quality of Wikipedia articles nor the level of dispute is enhanced by innuendo, not by derision, not by attempting to be offensive, confrontational, inflammatory, provocative ... and your recent edits give me cause to worry that somehow I might have failed inform you in terms that are clear, plain, unambiguous? -- Tenmei ( talk) 15:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
If Yonsei University is really one of the most prestigious universities in South Korea, then it is possible that other than the hospital and the medical journal, other organisations and schools attached to it may also be notable enough for their own articles and would belong on this dab page. One example might be the Yonsei Annals [2]. There may be other topics that are unrelated directly to both the university and the generation of Japanese American - for example the Yonsei-Yale Isochrones [3]. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)