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शिव साहिल: please explain your concerns behind this edit. Just because a poor quality article has long-standing content, it does not mean that old content should stay. Please see WP:LEAD and MOS guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 10:46, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Kautilya3! I think some admin or coding wizard told me that ping only works with a new signature line. So here we go: @ शिव साहिल: please see above. Thank you, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 11:05, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
शिव साहिल: There is a 2008 revised version of Monier Monier-Williams here, which is where I started to reach the scanned page I linked in this article. Further, the article cites many more sources, not just Monier Monier-Williams... it is unhelpful to the consensus building process if you refuse to see and study the more recently published sources I already cited and that state yoni means "womb/vagina/uterus/vulva/orgin/source/etc" depending on the context (I see the same problems with Linga article which you seem to have edited, I will be revising it too in coming weeks). This article already explains both, Parpola's concerns and supportive arguments, for NPOV. You have not read sources I cited, because you couldn't have missed Dales objections to the IVC theory on pages 101-102 in Parpola for example. Yes, Basham is talking about female generative organ (yoni) and the IVC theory on page 24, and you are misrepresenting him. No, the "scholars such as..." is not OR, since Basham and others dispute that theory. Remember what admin Diannaa repeatedly wrote on your page ( [2], [3]), after my caution to you for past disruptive editing, "you must write using your own words". We will not suppress either "Basham, Dales etc scholarly views disputing the IVC theory" nor the view that there may be "potential IVC and yoni/linga links". If you wish to propose an alternate wording, I will welcome and consider it.
You mention two sources - Britannica and Rowman & Littlefield, calling it reliable. Here is what they have to say,
That is along the lines of what the revised new version of the article is stating. Why are you deleting it? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:25, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Onkuchia: The Rowman & Littlefield source (Kimmel et al) is a source that was cited by editors before I made my first edit. शिव साहिल mentions it above as "more reliable", and fwiw it is an acceptable source under our content guidelines. The ethnic origin of the editors/authors is irrelevant, plus you are wrong that the article was written by British politicians. If you read that Kimmel source and credits therein carefully, you will note that the article has been written by Rohit Dasgupta, an Indian origin name whose ethnic origin once again is irrelevant. Similarly, this article already discusses the "source" meaning of yoni (I added Adi Shankara's commentary on it), and no the source does not say that this is the preferential meaning. It is simply ridiculous to allege or imply or insist that yoni does not mean "vulva/vagina/female sexual organs", when so many mainstream scholarly sources state so explicitly including religious studies professors. There is no need for anyone to be ashamed of the sensual/sexual information or aspects of anything, given when this overwhelmingly discussed in the RS. We don't censor information in Wikipedia, and we must include the predominant view in the mainstream peer-reviewed sources. Please read the sources already cited in this article carefully, as well as WP:CIR guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 23:44, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Ms Sarah Welch: Rohit K. Dasgupta is a British politician. Did I say anythin wrong? He is an academic in the Institute for Media and Creative Industries at Loughborough University[1] and a British Labour Party politician. [6]. Let me know about his academic credentials related to sanskrit or religious studies. Otherwise I will have to remove the source. Onkuchia (talk) 06:21, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
____
You've been repeatedly warned about WP:SYNTHESIS
Please don't combine materials (by scanning through the Jstor database with the input "Yoni vagina") and form a statement which is not explicitly stated in the source. For instance, the source you cited [1] doesn't explicitly deal with the etymology or meaning of the word yoni. The cited content deals with the translation of some medical text.
Cite the sources that specifically deal with the meaning of the word in different contexts and refrain from WP:SYNTHESIS Onkuchia (talk) 10:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
References
@ Onkuchia, शिव साहिल, and Kautilya3: It seems neither Onkuchia and शिव साहिल understand the WP:Synthesis guideline, unlike Kautilya3 who does. Let me quote it for you:
If the source states "yoni (vagina)" or "yoni (vulva)" or so on, these sources are explicitly stating yoni to mean these. What new conclusion does this article reach or imply where this and similar sources are cited, that the sources do not? If you allege that I am doing WP:Synthesis, you should identify with edit diffs what "new conclusion" have I reached/implied that the source does not. As Kautilya3 correctly mentions, your "preferential" claim above is synthesis (as are your primary meaning / secondary meaning allegations above), because the source does not make such a conclusion and it is your personal new conclusion. FWIW, I have already provided multiple sources that discuss the various meanings of yoni in more detail. For this article, we cannot ignore the meaning of yoni in Sanskrit/Prakrit medical texts, mythological texts, religious texts, drama and arts, temple design, kama and sex-related texts, and other literature where the terms linga and yoni sometimes are used. Since you allege that you have warned me already, I welcome you to approach a dispute noticeboard or try WP:AN / WP:ANI or whichever board you prefer where I will join you. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:30, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
(ps) The article should not limit it to the meaning "womb", because [a] that is only one side/meaning per numerous cited sources and we do not take sides per NPOV; [b] the Sanskrit word garbha (गर्भ) means the "womb" in several contexts (embryo, temple, etc). Dasgupta, it seems, has been an ethnographer-academic at University of Sussex, University of West London and University of Westminster whose article appeared in an encyclopedia edited by others and published by Rowman & Littlefield. If Dasgupta got elected to an office, that is not a disqualification under our content guidelines. But that you, Onkuchia, selectively highlighted "politician" part earlier, that was inappropriate. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:13, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
References
The word yoni, in its most literal sense... other female organs of generation.and then as
Yoni is a Sanskrit word... in other contexts. We obviously need to explain both the religious/metaphorical meaning (which makes the subject notable) and the literal meaning (since the metaphor derives from that) and should be able to find a way of writing that up gracefully instead of the disjointed and ref-bombed version currently in the lede. I'll try to help (at least as a sounding board), but it may be Friday till I can read all the prior dicussion and check the cited sources. Abecedare ( talk) 22:32, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2023 and 22 December 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
NominallyNaomi (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Bunny322 ( talk) 20:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Yoni article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 360 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
शिव साहिल: please explain your concerns behind this edit. Just because a poor quality article has long-standing content, it does not mean that old content should stay. Please see WP:LEAD and MOS guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 10:46, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Kautilya3! I think some admin or coding wizard told me that ping only works with a new signature line. So here we go: @ शिव साहिल: please see above. Thank you, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 11:05, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
शिव साहिल: There is a 2008 revised version of Monier Monier-Williams here, which is where I started to reach the scanned page I linked in this article. Further, the article cites many more sources, not just Monier Monier-Williams... it is unhelpful to the consensus building process if you refuse to see and study the more recently published sources I already cited and that state yoni means "womb/vagina/uterus/vulva/orgin/source/etc" depending on the context (I see the same problems with Linga article which you seem to have edited, I will be revising it too in coming weeks). This article already explains both, Parpola's concerns and supportive arguments, for NPOV. You have not read sources I cited, because you couldn't have missed Dales objections to the IVC theory on pages 101-102 in Parpola for example. Yes, Basham is talking about female generative organ (yoni) and the IVC theory on page 24, and you are misrepresenting him. No, the "scholars such as..." is not OR, since Basham and others dispute that theory. Remember what admin Diannaa repeatedly wrote on your page ( [2], [3]), after my caution to you for past disruptive editing, "you must write using your own words". We will not suppress either "Basham, Dales etc scholarly views disputing the IVC theory" nor the view that there may be "potential IVC and yoni/linga links". If you wish to propose an alternate wording, I will welcome and consider it.
You mention two sources - Britannica and Rowman & Littlefield, calling it reliable. Here is what they have to say,
That is along the lines of what the revised new version of the article is stating. Why are you deleting it? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:25, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Onkuchia: The Rowman & Littlefield source (Kimmel et al) is a source that was cited by editors before I made my first edit. शिव साहिल mentions it above as "more reliable", and fwiw it is an acceptable source under our content guidelines. The ethnic origin of the editors/authors is irrelevant, plus you are wrong that the article was written by British politicians. If you read that Kimmel source and credits therein carefully, you will note that the article has been written by Rohit Dasgupta, an Indian origin name whose ethnic origin once again is irrelevant. Similarly, this article already discusses the "source" meaning of yoni (I added Adi Shankara's commentary on it), and no the source does not say that this is the preferential meaning. It is simply ridiculous to allege or imply or insist that yoni does not mean "vulva/vagina/female sexual organs", when so many mainstream scholarly sources state so explicitly including religious studies professors. There is no need for anyone to be ashamed of the sensual/sexual information or aspects of anything, given when this overwhelmingly discussed in the RS. We don't censor information in Wikipedia, and we must include the predominant view in the mainstream peer-reviewed sources. Please read the sources already cited in this article carefully, as well as WP:CIR guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 23:44, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Ms Sarah Welch: Rohit K. Dasgupta is a British politician. Did I say anythin wrong? He is an academic in the Institute for Media and Creative Industries at Loughborough University[1] and a British Labour Party politician. [6]. Let me know about his academic credentials related to sanskrit or religious studies. Otherwise I will have to remove the source. Onkuchia (talk) 06:21, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
____
You've been repeatedly warned about WP:SYNTHESIS
Please don't combine materials (by scanning through the Jstor database with the input "Yoni vagina") and form a statement which is not explicitly stated in the source. For instance, the source you cited [1] doesn't explicitly deal with the etymology or meaning of the word yoni. The cited content deals with the translation of some medical text.
Cite the sources that specifically deal with the meaning of the word in different contexts and refrain from WP:SYNTHESIS Onkuchia (talk) 10:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
References
@ Onkuchia, शिव साहिल, and Kautilya3: It seems neither Onkuchia and शिव साहिल understand the WP:Synthesis guideline, unlike Kautilya3 who does. Let me quote it for you:
If the source states "yoni (vagina)" or "yoni (vulva)" or so on, these sources are explicitly stating yoni to mean these. What new conclusion does this article reach or imply where this and similar sources are cited, that the sources do not? If you allege that I am doing WP:Synthesis, you should identify with edit diffs what "new conclusion" have I reached/implied that the source does not. As Kautilya3 correctly mentions, your "preferential" claim above is synthesis (as are your primary meaning / secondary meaning allegations above), because the source does not make such a conclusion and it is your personal new conclusion. FWIW, I have already provided multiple sources that discuss the various meanings of yoni in more detail. For this article, we cannot ignore the meaning of yoni in Sanskrit/Prakrit medical texts, mythological texts, religious texts, drama and arts, temple design, kama and sex-related texts, and other literature where the terms linga and yoni sometimes are used. Since you allege that you have warned me already, I welcome you to approach a dispute noticeboard or try WP:AN / WP:ANI or whichever board you prefer where I will join you. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:30, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
(ps) The article should not limit it to the meaning "womb", because [a] that is only one side/meaning per numerous cited sources and we do not take sides per NPOV; [b] the Sanskrit word garbha (गर्भ) means the "womb" in several contexts (embryo, temple, etc). Dasgupta, it seems, has been an ethnographer-academic at University of Sussex, University of West London and University of Westminster whose article appeared in an encyclopedia edited by others and published by Rowman & Littlefield. If Dasgupta got elected to an office, that is not a disqualification under our content guidelines. But that you, Onkuchia, selectively highlighted "politician" part earlier, that was inappropriate. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:13, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
References
The word yoni, in its most literal sense... other female organs of generation.and then as
Yoni is a Sanskrit word... in other contexts. We obviously need to explain both the religious/metaphorical meaning (which makes the subject notable) and the literal meaning (since the metaphor derives from that) and should be able to find a way of writing that up gracefully instead of the disjointed and ref-bombed version currently in the lede. I'll try to help (at least as a sounding board), but it may be Friday till I can read all the prior dicussion and check the cited sources. Abecedare ( talk) 22:32, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2023 and 22 December 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
NominallyNaomi (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Bunny322 ( talk) 20:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)