This was in a user sandbox from 25 Oct to Nov 06, 2011, when it was moved to mainspace, becoming DYK eligible on Nov 6 as it's also over 24K of prose today. Log here PumpkinSky talk 19:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I stink at macro-photography, and need to re-do these when I get my 50mm lens fixed. But here are two images! - Tim1965 ( talk) 02:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey PS, sorry the photo so blurry and otherwise not the greatest, but I just had the cell phone, which clearly lacks macro capabilities. The guys at the jewelry store were happy to show off their Yogos, however. This one is currently worth (if you buy it from them) about $5000. If I ever remember to bring my actual camera to town, I'm sure they'll drag them out again for me. They had several, including one that was an unusual purplish color. Also a couple Montana Sapphires, for about 1/3 the price of the Yogos. Montanabw (talk) 21:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
They also gave me their handy-dandy handout on them, not sure if a RS, but will insert text here verbatim if you want to use it. Might provide clues to find backup for some claims (The Charlie Russell's friend and QEII claims are cool if it can be independently verified). Citation is "History of the Yogo Sapphire." Brochure (no author, undated) Central Montana Publishing Co., Lewistown Montana (any typos are mine unless noted):
"History of the Yogo Sapphire"
"Jake Hoover, once partner to Montana's cowboy-artist, Charlie Russell, is credited with the discovery of sapphires in Yogo Gulch in the Little Belt Mountains of Central Montana in 1898.
"The brilliant blue gems were at first thought by Hoover to be pieces of broken bottle glass. When examined by American and British gem authorities, the sapphires were found to be of unique quality and it was not long before the gems gained worldwide recognition.
"Yogo mining interests were purchased by British and American firms. In its heyday the mine produced $30 million in top quality gems. The mine was closed for a number of years because of litigation and other problems. It was recently [no date on brochure to define "recently'] re-opened and Yogo sapphires, which gain their name from the area where they are found, are again appearing on the world market.
"The mine, 45 miles southwest of Lewistown, is the only producing sapphire dike mine in North America, and possibly the world.
"A unique quality of Yogo sapphires is that they retain their brilliance under artificial light. Sapphires from other parts of the world generally absorb artificial light, making them appear black and lustless [sic].
"Yogo sapphires, for the most part, are free of "silk" or milkiness, which adds considerably to their value. It also permits cutting and polishing with greater ease and without undue waste of valuable material.
"Yogo sapphires are found among the crown jewels of Europe and they grace the engagement ring given to England's Queen Elizabeth by Prince Phillip. The beautiful Yogo sapphires are truly gems 'befitting a queen'."
If needed, and probably will pass reliability muster; http://deq.mt.gov/abandonedmines/linkdocs/92tech.mcpx --HISTORIC CONTEXT of the Yogo District. Good stuff.
More on Hoover and Russell: here
Also another Voynick book, with some tantalizing excerpts about museum collections, in google books: The Great American Sapphire
When you are ready to go live, give me a shout if you want any copyediting or a second set of eyes. I generally stay out of sandboxes unless invited... Montanabw (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Probably not needed, but some direct links to the Smithsonian, with possible US-Gov't PD images (maybe): summary, cool jewelry
Oh! and this is MEGA-cool and interesting on the economics! http://www.modernjeweler.com/web/online/Colored-Gemstone-Gem-Profiles/Yogo-Sapphire/1$562
Did some copyediting. Hope I helped and didn't screw up anything. All is intended in good faith and I will not be at all offended if you toss it all out. Looks like you were sort of putting in material by source, I mostly just rearranged things by topic and tried to keep the sources with the right material, but you might want to just revert my whole edit and put back in only what was helpful. I threw in a few hidden text comments where something struck me odd. I guess is was a slow day in wikiland that I had to go poop in someone else's sandbox, so if I was bad, just trout slap me or something! Montanabw (talk) 02:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment: Can't do the "state gem" thing because the statute says "sapphire" and is not exclusively confined to the Yogo. Hate to be a party pooper but see http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/1/1/1-1-505.htm. Also not fond of #4, especially as the mine is out of business half the time. Montanabw (talk) 01:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
The Tiffany Iris Brooch not a public domain image, but a link to where it was displayed with the potential of finding a free image. Montanabw (talk) 06:16, 7 November 2011 (UTC) -added
More stuff, just parking it here for future reference:
This is a great article! Just stumbled across it while looking at gem-related stuff! I added some categories and the jewellery nav box, hopefully they're appropriate! Dreadstar ☥ 04:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Smithsonian terms of use, in general: http://www.si.edu/Termsofuse
This Robert Kane is an elusive fellow, but some links:
Hope all is helpful. Montanabw (talk) 00:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jessemv ( talk · contribs) 01:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm impressed at the speed in which these issues were addressed. Thank you very much; the article is looking much nicer now. Here's the results from my re-read, and the test of the GA criteria:
Now, these issues are relatively minor. Overall, the article is put together well, and I congratulate you on your efforts. The text issues I've suggested will simply improve readability and the quality of the text, but the information is already there. Provided they are taken care of, I should have no problem passing the article for GA. Jessemv ( talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Jesse, I am going to review recent edits and put in changes I think need to happen. I have a few concerns about your review and do not concur that all of your recommendations are correct or necessary. First, I am going to recommend that you not nitpick punctuation, particularly when you are not correct (as in your suggestion that a colon is better than a semicolon; the semicolon was proper in that instance, though there are multiple ways that sentence could be punctuated). There are numerous ways to do things, and there is a place for stylistic differences. Also, on a GA-class article, the criteria is not as stringent as for FA, and you need to back off a little and let the editors do their job. Second, you are not understanding the purpose of "weasel" words ... sometimes these indefinite terms are needed because that is what the sources themselves say, they give us no more, we are stuck with "some, many, most, and few." Not all topics have the benefit of access to scientific studies or opinion polling. Thus the mere presence of an indefinite term does not mean it violates WP guidelines. Third, while the detail here may in places need to be tightened up a bit and the prose made a bit more "sparkling" (as the WP guidelines suggest) these sections do not present undue weight, they are needed because the history of the gem and the mining activities are crucial to the topic and covered nowhere else. And fourth, as for the photographs, they are as good as we can get at the moment -- the problem is that we need free images, Yogos are hard to find, and so we basically have amateur photographers doing the job. We don't have expensive cameras with macro lenses -- gem photography is, as I just discovered personally, a challenge. I took one of the images in this article, here's how: on short notice I only had my cell phone camera handy to spontaneously get an image after sweet-talking a jeweler into taking his time to let me see a $5000 unset gem he knew I clearly was not going to purchase...! When I get my courage up, again, and have time, I am going to have to see if my regular digital camera is even capable of taking a marco image (It's a point and shoot with some macro capacity -- I'll have to practice on a ring I have at home or something) and if it is, I MIGHT be able to talk the nice jeweler into letting me photograph that gem again. He might say yes, he might not. Even then, the image might not be much better! Montanabw (talk) 22:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I added coordinates for Yogo Creek since Yogo Gulch is not in the USGS names data. There is also a Yogo Crossing and Sapphire Village close by. Both have coordinates. We should use the one that most approximates Yogo Gulch. -- Mike Cline ( talk) 22:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
From somewhere up above:
It may sound better to some folks 'round here, but it's garbage to a geologist. The intrusive dike does not transition into anything. The lamproite dike intrudes pre-existing limestone along a fracture or fissure. Vsmith ( talk) 12:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I note that a few of the references cited are to commercial jewelry website info pages and are not WP:RS. One such turned out to be a dead link. Seems any GA reviewer type should have picked up on that. Vsmith ( talk) 12:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I'll watch for these deadlinks more closely next time. I guess it just slipped through. Apologies. Jessemv ( talk) 16:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Just removed 3 commercial websites: russell11, gemgallerymtloc, and edcollins. All had sales hype on the page or related pages. I've left a cite needed tag on the last of the three as it was the only ref for the ref'd sentence. Vsmith ( talk) 21:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
i wish every page was ike this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.137.129 ( talk) 20:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if "prismatic" should be to Prism (optics) or Prism (geology), I dab'd it to Prism (geology), please change if this is incorrect. Dreadstar ☥ 03:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I noticed in the last round of edits, a number of changes were made to the infobox, it now differs significantly from the one at sapphire. I tweaked the header to conform to those in related articles (seems to be no reason to say "corundum variety" as there are no sapphires that are NOT corundum). Given that I'm not a gem and mineral expert, I am puzzled why these changes were made, particularly when they contradict those at the sapphire article. I would think (as a layperson) that the minor differences that make a Yogo a yogo are not significant in the underlying structure. But I'm not a gemologist, so am asking someone to explain. And, while they are at it, maybe look at the sapphire box and see if it, therefore, contains errors? Montanabw (talk) 20:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Here's some additional sources that reference the Yogo that aren't currently in the article. Don't know what they say, but if you can find them, they may be useful:
Pirsson, L. V. Book Description: From 20th Ann. Rep., USGS, Wash., 1899. Paper, p. 463-581, 8 pl., 7 figs. Included is a study of the sapphires of Yogo Gulch, their origin and their character, including a crystallographic study of these crystals. New printed covers, first three pages are photocopies, VG. (UA205). Bookseller Inventory # 4854
Merriam, H.G. (editor) et al Book Description: Roberts, Helena, 1964. Stapled Paper. Book Condition: Very Good ++. B/W Photographs (illustrator). Vol. XIV, No. 04. 80 pages of articles, book reviews, and curios relating to Montana history. Lead article on the 1865 Powder River Indian Expedition by H.D. Hampton. Also articles on Don Hollowbrest, Headchief, Henry H. Blake , and sapphire mining. B/W photographs accompany the articles. Cond : Paper wrapper is white with red lettering. Front cover graphic is the C.R. Russell painting of 1898 - entitled `A Desperate Stand '. Staples tight but hinge rubbed. Light soiling, no names, marks, nor tears. Complete your series !! Quote (p. 63) : " Wood, as general manager of the company, went to San Francisco in the summer of 1892 to purchase three hydraulic engines and other apparatus for the mines. A tunnel eight miles long had been built to convey water. Stones totalling 40,000 to 50,000 carats were . .". Magazine. Bookseller Inventory # 005284
-- Mike Cline ( talk) 20:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Vsmith, that last edit clarified things quite a bit. Nice work! Montanabw (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok - I've rejigged that bit now and feel it flows a little better, see how the subject matters are gathered together. I'll leave it for a bit for others to look at. The article looks better further down at first glance. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 13:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Overall, not looking too bad. It was choppy and is less so now. I think another set of eyes is good to be safe. Any article which can incorporate "Carats and Shtick" has to have something going for it ;) Casliber ( talk · contribs) 20:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I usually ignore the FA stuff - so no comment there. However, the first impression I recall on looking over the article was: the gem images are very poor quality with the appearance of snapshots lacking any attempt at proper focus. Now, I understand they is all we got - and maybe FA criteria wonks don't care, but they are an embarrassment. So rather than arguing and shouting - make some effort at improvement. If someone has access to some good gemstones - get a decent camera and take better pictures. FA or not the article needs higher quality images. Vsmith ( talk) 01:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
One more thing to think about. A really great image will draw in a lot more readers, especially if this article gets through FAC and ends up on the main page one day. Think about it. Do you want readers looking at the main page blurb and the image and thinking "that blue blob doesn't look very exciting", or do you want readers going "wow, what a great picture of a really beautiful gem, I'll go and read that article". Admittedly, they might then just spend all their time looking at the images, and not reading the article, but good images do draw readers to articles and hold them there. And conversely, poor images can be off-putting. As I've said elsewhere, this article does have some good images. Don't let a ruckus over the one that is really blurry distract from that, or the good work being done here. How much does it really cost to take a deep breath, say you are working towards getting better images, and to thank people for the helpful advice provided here? Carcharoth ( talk) 05:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Here's a couple things I think we need to do. Anyone else add what they see. Montanabw (talk) 23:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Yogo1ct.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests January 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 02:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC) |
Three main things; I took out two images which were not of the requisite quality to illustrate an encyclopedia article; I corrected US$ to $ (on an American article, there is little chance of the symbol being confused with the Canadian or Zimbabwean dollar); I tidied up the writing in various low-impact ways ( seasons should not be used to denote time as they are relative, "a number of" is best avoided as zero, pi and negative nine are all perfectly good numbers, "words-as-words" are italicized but not capitalized, and Paris doesn't need to be linked). It's a pretty good article. I may have more suggestions later. -- John ( talk) 14:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
If you really feel you must, then I would favor USD over US$. A better solution is to just put the (US) in parens the first time used and then not worry afterwards. TCO ( Reviews needed) 21:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Several good reviewers have basically said "it's good and should go to FA, but it's not quite ready, so with that and a recommendation on my talkpage, I've listed this at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests#Yogo_sapphire. Hopefully it will get a another pre FAC review soon and better photos will appear. PumpkinSky talk 03:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Wow, did this ever drift off topic, from Yogo sapphires from Montana to turtles to free video software. I apologize for getting carried away before, especially to Andrew. I've tried some of the suggestions for reshooting the Yogos I have access to and would like to see what others think. Keep in mind I'm a complete amateur and don't have fancy equipment. These were done with a loupe, digital camera, and changing angles of the stone and lighting. There are many more pics of these two stones that I simply deleted. As different as they may look all the pear shots are the same stone and likewise with the purple stone. The purple stone often comes out looking blue depending on lighting, flash, etc. For both stones, the new shots were all done without flash as all the ones I tried with flash looked really bad. I tried to get these to display in a gallery but it didn't work. PumpkinSky talk 23:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, of that bunch B and E have the most potential. Is your digital camera fully automatic or can you set aperture and shutter speed. If so I'd recommend a makeshift tripod and long exposure and narrow aperture.... Casliber ( talk · contribs) 23:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
B and 4 (maybe 5) get my vote. None are perfect, but you can at least discern faceting of the aluminum oxide now.
I suggest for any of these, try the WP:Graphics Lab to fix them up. They are super fast, super good, and super nice (opposite of me!)
I think we should not have these discussions all the time. That would be an FAC-T distraction. But I think having it once...is very useful. since there is an issue of a lot of FAC writers kind of gaffing off images as a concern. It's educational for them.
TCO ( Reviews needed) 00:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
When it stops raining and such I'll do some outdoor shots and try the other suggestions. PumpkinSky talk 00:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
OK sapphire fans, first I washed them, then I took these with my small 6" tripod, loupe, outdoors with overcast skies, and same digital camera. This time I picked the best shot (good ones were easier this time) and uploaded different crops to show how the more I crop them, the blurrier they get. PumpkinSky talk 01:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Crop 1 on the pear looks pretty good, way better color. Crop 1 or 2 on the purple, good, though not very purple. I know the blur police don't like the original purple, but IMHO that's the one that looks like a Yogo. Montanabw (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I'd say that Crop 1 on the pear looks best, and Crop 3 on the purple. I take Crop 1 on the pear rather than Crop 2 since Crop 2 seems blurry in the thumbnail. Crop 1 on the purple is too small IMO. I don't remember actually seeing an actual yogo, so I don't know exactly what color they are without being influenced by image color bias. Still, it looks fine to me. In the article, we'd want the object to fill the frame and thus illustrate a yogo without a big border. When you click on Crop 3 for more detail it seems obviously blurry. Maybe you could reupload PurpleYogoSapphire6C.jpg with a slightly smaller version to avoid that, but keep the thumbnail the same size in the article. I personally think these images are really nice and significantly better than before. Well done! Jessemv ( talk) 16:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Crop 1 on the pear looks pretty good, way better color. Crop 1 or 2 on the purple, good, though not very purple. Montanabw (talk) 01:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
P.s. This is kind of a segue, but fits into the FAC writers should care about the images meme, I just got a picture of an HF burn. Took me 4 different donation attempts (and even finding people to ask for an image was tricky). Most are much easier than that. But if you are never writing to ask for an image donation, never had to deal with OTRS saying the signoff was not good enough yet...well you are not really doing all you can.
-TCO TCO ( Reviews needed) 00:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What template (serious)? I just send them an email. Volunteers take care of it after that. My job is to find the image on the net...and find an email and a name of a person to ask for the image from. Then write them a nice note and ask for it. First couple times, I dorked it up for Commons, but the volunteer still stepped in and just emailed the donor. They were all very smooth actually. TCO ( Reviews needed) 03:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
To be blunt, the biggest barrier here is equipment so I'm going to describe what I'd consider best practise, and just do what you can. Buy (very cheap on ebay) or make a light tent and light it up. Halogen work lights are a good, cheap way to get a lot of light. You should vary the amount of light on each side until it looks right (by altering the physical distance of the light sources). A small piece of white or black plastic, such as Poly(methyl methacrylate) or HDPE, is probably the best background material, you can buy small scrap pieces for very little. Paper is going to show too many fibres and stuff at this scale. I'd then photograph it on a tripod, focus stacking using a macro lens and/or extension tubes (depending on how small it is). Chances are you might know someone with the right equipment. Using your current camera: Improving the lighting will help the sharpness etc with your current camera quite a bit, because the shutter speed is probably low enough for motion blur at the moment. You need to put the gem at the minimum focus distance of the camera, it will be blurry if you go too close. Make sure your camera is in macro mode (usually a flower symbol). JJ Harrison ( talk) 02:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
What does Voynick say exactly regarding "9, 12 or 18 carat"? The Daily Mail (and virtually everyone else) say the ring is 18-carat, the gem 12. It is also generally accepted to be a Sri Lankan stone. DrKiernan ( talk) 11:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Can you toss us some URLs that we can use and will pass WP:RS? I saw news stuff, but not sure what would pass WP FAC muster. Generally, the Daily Mail is a tabloid, though I suspect on something like this, it's gospel! LOL! Montanabw (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Can we say how many carats have been extracted? It makes more of a point for the reader if we give him something that tells him how much has come out versus how much remains. TCO ( Reviews needed) 18:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I am liking this article. Something about the topic; with the combination of science, art, and geography; is cool. Don't worry...there are so many articles on Wiki that if you want me to stay away from it...I can and will. But I want to read through and give some feedback, vice just plunging in and editing more.
My initial take is pretty close to TK's. It's still aways from FA qual (and will be real work to get it there). It's not just going to be comma fixing, needed. It's clearly GA+ in terms of your love and research into the topic. But maybe not totally nailed yet in terms of all sources checked. And lots of places to make the writing more strongly structured and clip excess words.
P.s. Please don't let the feedback bug ya (or even tell me ahead and I won't make it). I really think the one who does the heavy lifting of putting the first draft together is the HERO.
TCO ( Reviews needed) 20:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The answer to all our questions about the various UK jewels is probably in this reference guide? Tough as it is to prove a negative, the above guide will probably do the trick. Also, we'd love to find a source better than The Daily Mail to prove that Princess Di/Kate Middleton's engagement ring was, in fact, an 18-carat Sri Lankan sapphire. Anyone able to dig? I also found the 18 carat ref in CBS news and the Huffington Post if that helps. Montanabw (talk) 19:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't, but if you want to do up a quote with a proper cite to date and maybe even a direct quote, we can refine from there and plop it in based on AGF.
Just FYI, the reference guide mentioned by Montanabw makes no mention of Yogos; it mentions the provenance of two other sapphires, one Burmese and one Sri Lankan. It also does not discuss the engagement ring, although it has a general note to consult a reference from Garrards for gems obtained after the mid-1800s. Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:32, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
This is as good as I can get, I ain't a-taken' any more. This gem is a .65 carat AAA gem, the 1 carat was not available. But this one is worth $3300, according to the owners. I'd be glad to send anyone the original images if someone wants to dink with them further. I can also crop them even tighter, but maybe you all play with them first and see if that works for you. Yogo2783, the one on the far right, is probably my favorite, but everyone weigh in, I did a tight crop of that one to see what could be done at uber-max crop. Montanabw (talk) 01:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
This is my latest attempt, taken outdoors. Maybe I should sent the stones to Montanabw for getting their portrait taken:
After considerable photo trials, we've come up with these for the pear and purple Yogos. Not pro level, but the best I've come up with so far, and just before the (cough) silly (cough) Great Wiki Blackout of Jan 2012! Hope you enjoy these photos:
: Montanabw's help was invaluable on this. PumpkinSky talk 01:03, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Now that we have the photos settled, some thoughts on final cleanup:
All I can think of, comments or additions from anyone else below are welcome! Montanabw (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments
"but will we have headaches citing to a subscription site?" Look at Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Links_to_sources. I might have the same problem on the Folding@home article, where 99% of the journal citations are through subscriptions. But those subscriptions are most likely available through a library (especially one at a university) so how is that different than citing a book? My understanding of policy is that a citation is still valid under those conditions. Also think of a deadlink. If a reference goes away, is the content relying on that deadlink completely invalid? No. Of course, its always proper to provide references to available sources, and I fully believe subscription sites are just fine. As I'm on a university network, I can probably look up that subscription site information if you want. Let me know. Jessemv ( talk) 02:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Good stuff. Like how you all are powering this interesting combination of finery, Rocky Mountain history and geology along! TCO ( Reviews needed) 03:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
So far, I'm very impressed with the quality of the article. It certainly is reliable and has high-quality writing. Well done! A couple things that caught my eye:
And that's basically it. Why? Because the quality of the text is really impressive! Your hard work and dedication is very evident. :D Jessemv ( talk) 03:29, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
And "to its confluence with" was recently removed. Can this be put back? I really like the way it sounds, and "confluence" is a high-quality word that you'd probably find in an encyclopedia. Considering PumpkinSky's devotion and investment into the article, I didn't want to just put it back. Why was it removed? Jessemv ( talk) 19:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The paragraph of the Yogo area is based on a map on p. 116 of the Voynick book. If I scan it into digital form, would that be a) better than the county map currently in the location section and b) a valid use of fair use -- and someone help write a good fair use rationale that will stick? PumpkinSky talk 21:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The Gauthier MS thesis I referred to earlier has a more detailed map of the dike geology which shows more mining locations. Probably more detail than needed, but the mines and topography might be useful. Gauthier gives credt for it to an earlier work by a J. P. Dahy in 1991 published in
I haven't found online access to it, but might be available to a local Montana resident. It was preceded by another MS thesis by Dahy for the Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology in 1988 - haven't found that online either. Vsmith ( talk) 00:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if the infobox is really needed. I suspect many of the physical properties are identical to sapphire gems in general or even just aluminum oxide. Not a push as I know Wikians feel more comfortable with boxes. But some articles (like art) tend not to have them. I love technical detail for a hard core chemical article, but I just feel that this is not mostly about that and they can get that at Al2O3 or regular sapphire article. TCO ( Reviews needed) 04:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I just aquired a copy of Voynick and have been doing some reading. I noted the captions on historic images in the book and the article were quite similar - so loaded the Milly Ringold image and found the source of the caption. The image description on the file page is copied from the source and the caption in the article copies from that. Seems that we need to credit the bigskyjournal.com page as a reference for our image caption and maybe use caution about copying directly their text. See the copyright notice at the bottom of their page, the image may be "in the public domain", but their description of it surely isn't.
Our caption for that image "Millie Ringold, c. 1900. The structure in the background is a waterwheel used to power a crusher at Yogo City's Weatherwax Mine" the source caption: "The structure in the background is a waterwheel that was used to power a crusher at Yogo City's Weatherwax Mine." I'm no copyright expert, but that seems to be problematic. Vsmith ( talk) 01:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so via my watchlist I just learned that PumpkinSky has been blocked for sockpuppetry, which based on my experiences with him, is really unfortunate. I also read Montanabw's response on this page, which was well written and I really agree with. PumpkinSky is currently the primary editor of this article with 454 edits, to Montanabw who's in second place with 37. This article is really, really close to FA. Why did the issue have to erupt now?! :( So, my question is, so now what's the plan? We need a new leader I guess. :D Jessemv ( talk) 06:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm popping the external links here -- I was the one who added some of them. I think a couple need to go back in: The two Tiffany Iris Brooch links. The Claudiaeneler page shows the entire brooch, with stem, the "Bedazzled" page shows detail of the brooch in the header. As any available images are copyrighted (as is, I think the entire work, though maybe not if Pauling is deceased) and this is probably the most famous piece of Yogo Sapphire jewelry in existence, I feel some way for readers to see what it looks like is nice. As for the rest, I'm keeping them here as they might be backup refs to Voynich. I added a couple more possibilities. Montanabw (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
The history seems to end abruptly in 2008. However the current owner ended abruptly in the mine in 2012. http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20120321/NEWS01/203210311/Great-Falls-Yogo-mine-owner-killed-mining-accident — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.110.165.221 ( talk) 21:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Just ran WP:Checklinks on this article and found several issues including a couple of deadlinks. result Jesse V. ( talk) 23:05, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Moving the discussion back here. I think we need VSmith or someone to clarify the strike and dip compass orientation stuff. I read the wikilinked article and I still don't quite get it. I read it a while back and tried to reword it, but it still confuses me -- I presume that the 75-degree orientation has something to do with the line of the deposit underground at an angle (hence the technical terminology but I can speak as a minerology noob and admit it's confusing me. Can we clarify that? Montanabw (talk) 17:58, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
I've fiddled a bit with the location section wording. The section appears to be based on measurements/interpretations of the small scale map in Voynick (p. 116). Seems perhaps the USGS 7.5' quadrangle maps could be used for checking here ... thinking. Does the Etymology section belong here (in location) or should it be moved to history? Vsmith ( talk) 19:53, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
As I've been following this article for a while now, I don't think it's appropriate for me to put this in the peer review, so I'm placing it here. I've read the article very carefully, but haven't checked any of the refs. Still, I think there's a pretty good chance that the writing will pass at an FAC, for I find it very detailed, concise, and generally professional. I am impressed! Some thoughts:
That's about all I can find. And by the way, this article contains 5973 words. Good job! :D Jesse V. ( talk) 01:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Also, check out: http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/view/Peer_reviewer#page:Yogo_sapphire These suggestions are from an automated script, so not all of them apply. Still, I think you should make sure everything in there is addressed. Jesse V. ( talk) 16:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Got the Blackfoot language dictionary, no "Yogo." If anyone is interested, this is an Algonquian language, by the way. Put a serious analysis into a note within the article. Went through the entire "y" section, and zilch for anything related blue, sky or romance. For fun, I noticed a few words might be screwed up by English speakers and pronounced "yogo," so I'm noting the here with meanings, but all of this is OR or SYNTH, so just here for everyone to have fun with the concepts: "yo'ko means "head off" or "turn back" (Which, to my ear, might give the "going AWOL or going over the hill" theory some vague mistranslated merit, but that is just a wild guess on my part) "yoohto" means "hear", "yoohkiit" means "different," "yoohko" means "await" or "to wait for," "yoohk" means at or by an entrance, and "yo'ki means to shut or close. "yo'kaa" means "sleep," "Yoohsini" means "to knock senseless." My favorite, "yaoo" is an exclamation of woe, akin to "oh no! Not again!" Going down the rabbit hole a little farther "moto" means "spring" (the season) Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Did we miss this? Sketch of the Tiffany Iris Brooch! Too late to add to article?
How about using this corner of a 1902 topo sheet to suppliment the location description. It shows Yogo Creek, Yogo Peak, Yogo townsite, Utica, Judith River and its Middle Fork and the location of the mine. It is a redo of an earlier 1897 map. Vsmith ( talk) 01:51, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Was over at the mineral museum in Butte, where they have several yogos of various sorts. Got this one, worth adding or is (cell phone camera) quality too low? Hard to say when I will get there again and if I'll happen to have a better camera if I do... feelings not hurt if deemed too pixellated. Montanabw (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
does this sentence say anything meaningful?
Many gemologists consider them among the finest[dubious – discuss] sapphires in the world
"many gemologists" makes me want to ask who in particular, or at least get a citation "among the finest" X "in the world" sounds like weasel words,
so we get left with "gemologists consider them sapphires"
I think that sentence could go, in fact I'm sufficiently convinced by writing this out that Im going to remove it, feel free to add it back if you think I have erred. EdwardLane ( talk) 09:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Congrats on progressing the article. I appreciate having more images in there and also researching more content (probably not easy, given the niche nature of the topic). Also, this is an interesting example of a new Wiki article that actually sort of has decent viewership, but is not a new event (in other words, you filled a gap).
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC) (TCO)
Lead is one of the most important parts of the article and could use some work to be better (to make the gem shine!)
(numbered comments, being edited in, please reply below by number, not interposting)
1. It feels "long". I would not begrudge a country, for instance, 4 medium-long paras, but this is a much less notable topic. Maybe part of it is the writing, too, but I bet if you just put an artificial restriction on yourself to cut 25% of the text (forcing yourself to prioritize), that it will lead to something more interesting to read.
2. First sentence is too long. Be more simple and direct and you will entertain the reader more. Like a punch. In the face. ;-) Srsly, leave the pigeonfeet stuff for some other sentence in the lead.
Consider: "The Yogo sapphire is a type of corundum gemstone, found only in Yogo Gulch, in Montana." Then, probably get into the color stuff and the difference with other sapphires (not just color, but price, expert praise) pretty quickly. This sort of thing orients the reader. The details of mountains and Indians can come in a later lead para that talks about the location and the geology and such.
3. I don't think you need to mention the town, state, and country. (why not the continent, world, solar system, galaxy?) Also wikilinking the various parts is deprecated (wl Des Moines, Iowa entirely, not part by part). Also, I think the vast amount of people will have heard of Montana. Even furriners. I mean they watch cowboy movies and such. Plus there is the Wikilink for those who goofed off in grade school geography class.
4. Don't link multiple terms that are not separated by at least a comma. "dipping resistive igneous dike". The reason is that you can't tell if the entire term is wikiliked or what. Pick the most important thing to link to. Probably igneous dike. From there, the reader can get to the other terms or to an understanding of types of dikes. If not, then maybe consider simplifying the technical discussion in lead to use less words that need wl-definition.
5. Last two sentences in first para feel a little unrelated to the rest of the para. Might be better if we looked at the lead organization again.
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 18:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Details of geometry/geology really need a picture to rapidly understand concepts. Imaging trying to describe to someone in text what a square knot is...versus having some explanatory diagram.
Do a Google images shearch on "igneous dike" for a few good diagrams (I think an explanatory diagram is better than some photo). You could show a normal dike and the dipping sort. I quite like the ones with the volcanos. It's like sex appeal to a nerd.
Get someone on Wiki to draw the diagram from scratch. I advise reaching out to User:Jkwchui who is both a scientist and graphic artist, but there are other superstars out there too. If you are nice to the image people, it is amazing what you can get as a result.
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 19:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
MBW:
"I advise reaching out to User:Jkwchui", also the Graphics Lab. I mean when I had 3 peeps fighting over who gets to help me, I sorta think there is still spare capacity to help other people. ;-)
Sky,
1. You gotta ask the right way, man. Little outreach and humor and such will get people to go through fires for ya. This is not just some grunt work you are outsourcing. Kiss a little ass. Reach out to the dude on the other side of the modem with raport.
2. And care about the output...have a vision of what you are trying to accomplish. The image people love working with article writers who have a concept of how images actually convey information to readers. Images are not just random raisins in the pie! They are pedagical tools...and for complex geometric (or scientific) items are extremely powerful compared to pure text in making the content accessible to non-technical readers.
3. Images are also incredibly high view within articles. citation needed Make the place people put a lot of eyeball time on, be something we make look good. That is why you rightly got pushed to get BETTER with the original gem images. A sparkling article without beautiful pics of items that are primarily famous for their appearance)?
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 21:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Not policy or even MOS. And yeah, I get the TCO thing, sign in please. Dreadstar ☥ 23:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Of course, this is still not common practice on the Wiki, so am in no way saying this is policy. Just a TCO thang (you wouldn't understand). ;-) Another idea which would be cool would be to show a typical Yugo versus a typical Montana sappphire. I know MontanaBW had comments about the difference in our article talk, so showing that with photos could be good content. It's high gain because it orients the reader. Helps him distinguish things. 64.134.165.46 ( talk) 19:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
BTW, I think you are completely justified in removing my other goofy remarks, have right on your side...I was treating the talk page too much like a chat room. And of course I am breaking rules by violating my block. But this one thing where you dismiss my comment and then close it, is a mistake. Ask you respectfully to unhide, please. Even if I'm wrong and that is not the direction to take the article, it is on topic to discuss that sort of thing. And I'm not even imposing it, just raising it as an idea. BTW, I did find this interesting shot of a Montana saph (not a Yogo) and I wonder if it is showing a stereotypical example...is showing what MBW thinks of when she says she recognizes differences. 64.134.164.188 ( talk) 00:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Dull under artificial light, maybe. Or just a bad shot. Hard to say. Montanabw (talk) 00:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC) |
"Sapphires are a color variety of corundum, a crystalline form of aluminium oxide (Al2O3).[14] Corundum is one of the hardest minerals, rating 9 on the Mohs scale.[15] Corundum gems of most colors are called sapphires, except for red ones, which are called rubies.[16] The term "Yogo sapphire" refers only to sapphires from the Yogo Gulch.[17] The cornflower blue color of the Yogo results from trace amounts of iron and titanium.[11] Yogo sapphires are unique in that they are free of cavities and inclusions, have high uniform clarity, lack color zoning, and do not need heat treating because their cornflower blue coloring is uniform and deep.[18] Unlike Asian sapphires, they maintain their brilliance in artificial light.[19] Yogos present an advantage to gemcutters:[20] since they are found as primary constituent minerals within an igneous bedrock rather than in sedimentary alluvial deposits where most other sapphires are located,[5][18] they retain a perfect or near perfect crystalline shape, making cutting much easier, as does their lack of inclusions, color zoning, or cloudiness.[20] Yogos also exhibit a triangular pattern on the basal plane of the flattened crystals,[21] with thin rhombohedral crystal faces, a feature absent in sapphires from other parts of Montana.[22][23][24]
I was wondering what the topic of this para is, but I guess it is "science of how Yugo's differ from other sapphires". It sort of reads a little "dense" or as if stray facts were thrown together. Maybe cutting it in two would help it.
Another idea, could we see a picture of an Asian sapphire and a Yugo under artificial light (to see the noted difference)?
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 20:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
This was in a user sandbox from 25 Oct to Nov 06, 2011, when it was moved to mainspace, becoming DYK eligible on Nov 6 as it's also over 24K of prose today. Log here PumpkinSky talk 19:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I stink at macro-photography, and need to re-do these when I get my 50mm lens fixed. But here are two images! - Tim1965 ( talk) 02:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey PS, sorry the photo so blurry and otherwise not the greatest, but I just had the cell phone, which clearly lacks macro capabilities. The guys at the jewelry store were happy to show off their Yogos, however. This one is currently worth (if you buy it from them) about $5000. If I ever remember to bring my actual camera to town, I'm sure they'll drag them out again for me. They had several, including one that was an unusual purplish color. Also a couple Montana Sapphires, for about 1/3 the price of the Yogos. Montanabw (talk) 21:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
They also gave me their handy-dandy handout on them, not sure if a RS, but will insert text here verbatim if you want to use it. Might provide clues to find backup for some claims (The Charlie Russell's friend and QEII claims are cool if it can be independently verified). Citation is "History of the Yogo Sapphire." Brochure (no author, undated) Central Montana Publishing Co., Lewistown Montana (any typos are mine unless noted):
"History of the Yogo Sapphire"
"Jake Hoover, once partner to Montana's cowboy-artist, Charlie Russell, is credited with the discovery of sapphires in Yogo Gulch in the Little Belt Mountains of Central Montana in 1898.
"The brilliant blue gems were at first thought by Hoover to be pieces of broken bottle glass. When examined by American and British gem authorities, the sapphires were found to be of unique quality and it was not long before the gems gained worldwide recognition.
"Yogo mining interests were purchased by British and American firms. In its heyday the mine produced $30 million in top quality gems. The mine was closed for a number of years because of litigation and other problems. It was recently [no date on brochure to define "recently'] re-opened and Yogo sapphires, which gain their name from the area where they are found, are again appearing on the world market.
"The mine, 45 miles southwest of Lewistown, is the only producing sapphire dike mine in North America, and possibly the world.
"A unique quality of Yogo sapphires is that they retain their brilliance under artificial light. Sapphires from other parts of the world generally absorb artificial light, making them appear black and lustless [sic].
"Yogo sapphires, for the most part, are free of "silk" or milkiness, which adds considerably to their value. It also permits cutting and polishing with greater ease and without undue waste of valuable material.
"Yogo sapphires are found among the crown jewels of Europe and they grace the engagement ring given to England's Queen Elizabeth by Prince Phillip. The beautiful Yogo sapphires are truly gems 'befitting a queen'."
If needed, and probably will pass reliability muster; http://deq.mt.gov/abandonedmines/linkdocs/92tech.mcpx --HISTORIC CONTEXT of the Yogo District. Good stuff.
More on Hoover and Russell: here
Also another Voynick book, with some tantalizing excerpts about museum collections, in google books: The Great American Sapphire
When you are ready to go live, give me a shout if you want any copyediting or a second set of eyes. I generally stay out of sandboxes unless invited... Montanabw (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Probably not needed, but some direct links to the Smithsonian, with possible US-Gov't PD images (maybe): summary, cool jewelry
Oh! and this is MEGA-cool and interesting on the economics! http://www.modernjeweler.com/web/online/Colored-Gemstone-Gem-Profiles/Yogo-Sapphire/1$562
Did some copyediting. Hope I helped and didn't screw up anything. All is intended in good faith and I will not be at all offended if you toss it all out. Looks like you were sort of putting in material by source, I mostly just rearranged things by topic and tried to keep the sources with the right material, but you might want to just revert my whole edit and put back in only what was helpful. I threw in a few hidden text comments where something struck me odd. I guess is was a slow day in wikiland that I had to go poop in someone else's sandbox, so if I was bad, just trout slap me or something! Montanabw (talk) 02:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment: Can't do the "state gem" thing because the statute says "sapphire" and is not exclusively confined to the Yogo. Hate to be a party pooper but see http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/1/1/1-1-505.htm. Also not fond of #4, especially as the mine is out of business half the time. Montanabw (talk) 01:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
The Tiffany Iris Brooch not a public domain image, but a link to where it was displayed with the potential of finding a free image. Montanabw (talk) 06:16, 7 November 2011 (UTC) -added
More stuff, just parking it here for future reference:
This is a great article! Just stumbled across it while looking at gem-related stuff! I added some categories and the jewellery nav box, hopefully they're appropriate! Dreadstar ☥ 04:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Smithsonian terms of use, in general: http://www.si.edu/Termsofuse
This Robert Kane is an elusive fellow, but some links:
Hope all is helpful. Montanabw (talk) 00:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jessemv ( talk · contribs) 01:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm impressed at the speed in which these issues were addressed. Thank you very much; the article is looking much nicer now. Here's the results from my re-read, and the test of the GA criteria:
Now, these issues are relatively minor. Overall, the article is put together well, and I congratulate you on your efforts. The text issues I've suggested will simply improve readability and the quality of the text, but the information is already there. Provided they are taken care of, I should have no problem passing the article for GA. Jessemv ( talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Jesse, I am going to review recent edits and put in changes I think need to happen. I have a few concerns about your review and do not concur that all of your recommendations are correct or necessary. First, I am going to recommend that you not nitpick punctuation, particularly when you are not correct (as in your suggestion that a colon is better than a semicolon; the semicolon was proper in that instance, though there are multiple ways that sentence could be punctuated). There are numerous ways to do things, and there is a place for stylistic differences. Also, on a GA-class article, the criteria is not as stringent as for FA, and you need to back off a little and let the editors do their job. Second, you are not understanding the purpose of "weasel" words ... sometimes these indefinite terms are needed because that is what the sources themselves say, they give us no more, we are stuck with "some, many, most, and few." Not all topics have the benefit of access to scientific studies or opinion polling. Thus the mere presence of an indefinite term does not mean it violates WP guidelines. Third, while the detail here may in places need to be tightened up a bit and the prose made a bit more "sparkling" (as the WP guidelines suggest) these sections do not present undue weight, they are needed because the history of the gem and the mining activities are crucial to the topic and covered nowhere else. And fourth, as for the photographs, they are as good as we can get at the moment -- the problem is that we need free images, Yogos are hard to find, and so we basically have amateur photographers doing the job. We don't have expensive cameras with macro lenses -- gem photography is, as I just discovered personally, a challenge. I took one of the images in this article, here's how: on short notice I only had my cell phone camera handy to spontaneously get an image after sweet-talking a jeweler into taking his time to let me see a $5000 unset gem he knew I clearly was not going to purchase...! When I get my courage up, again, and have time, I am going to have to see if my regular digital camera is even capable of taking a marco image (It's a point and shoot with some macro capacity -- I'll have to practice on a ring I have at home or something) and if it is, I MIGHT be able to talk the nice jeweler into letting me photograph that gem again. He might say yes, he might not. Even then, the image might not be much better! Montanabw (talk) 22:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I added coordinates for Yogo Creek since Yogo Gulch is not in the USGS names data. There is also a Yogo Crossing and Sapphire Village close by. Both have coordinates. We should use the one that most approximates Yogo Gulch. -- Mike Cline ( talk) 22:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
From somewhere up above:
It may sound better to some folks 'round here, but it's garbage to a geologist. The intrusive dike does not transition into anything. The lamproite dike intrudes pre-existing limestone along a fracture or fissure. Vsmith ( talk) 12:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I note that a few of the references cited are to commercial jewelry website info pages and are not WP:RS. One such turned out to be a dead link. Seems any GA reviewer type should have picked up on that. Vsmith ( talk) 12:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I'll watch for these deadlinks more closely next time. I guess it just slipped through. Apologies. Jessemv ( talk) 16:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Just removed 3 commercial websites: russell11, gemgallerymtloc, and edcollins. All had sales hype on the page or related pages. I've left a cite needed tag on the last of the three as it was the only ref for the ref'd sentence. Vsmith ( talk) 21:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
i wish every page was ike this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.137.129 ( talk) 20:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if "prismatic" should be to Prism (optics) or Prism (geology), I dab'd it to Prism (geology), please change if this is incorrect. Dreadstar ☥ 03:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I noticed in the last round of edits, a number of changes were made to the infobox, it now differs significantly from the one at sapphire. I tweaked the header to conform to those in related articles (seems to be no reason to say "corundum variety" as there are no sapphires that are NOT corundum). Given that I'm not a gem and mineral expert, I am puzzled why these changes were made, particularly when they contradict those at the sapphire article. I would think (as a layperson) that the minor differences that make a Yogo a yogo are not significant in the underlying structure. But I'm not a gemologist, so am asking someone to explain. And, while they are at it, maybe look at the sapphire box and see if it, therefore, contains errors? Montanabw (talk) 20:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Here's some additional sources that reference the Yogo that aren't currently in the article. Don't know what they say, but if you can find them, they may be useful:
Pirsson, L. V. Book Description: From 20th Ann. Rep., USGS, Wash., 1899. Paper, p. 463-581, 8 pl., 7 figs. Included is a study of the sapphires of Yogo Gulch, their origin and their character, including a crystallographic study of these crystals. New printed covers, first three pages are photocopies, VG. (UA205). Bookseller Inventory # 4854
Merriam, H.G. (editor) et al Book Description: Roberts, Helena, 1964. Stapled Paper. Book Condition: Very Good ++. B/W Photographs (illustrator). Vol. XIV, No. 04. 80 pages of articles, book reviews, and curios relating to Montana history. Lead article on the 1865 Powder River Indian Expedition by H.D. Hampton. Also articles on Don Hollowbrest, Headchief, Henry H. Blake , and sapphire mining. B/W photographs accompany the articles. Cond : Paper wrapper is white with red lettering. Front cover graphic is the C.R. Russell painting of 1898 - entitled `A Desperate Stand '. Staples tight but hinge rubbed. Light soiling, no names, marks, nor tears. Complete your series !! Quote (p. 63) : " Wood, as general manager of the company, went to San Francisco in the summer of 1892 to purchase three hydraulic engines and other apparatus for the mines. A tunnel eight miles long had been built to convey water. Stones totalling 40,000 to 50,000 carats were . .". Magazine. Bookseller Inventory # 005284
-- Mike Cline ( talk) 20:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Vsmith, that last edit clarified things quite a bit. Nice work! Montanabw (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok - I've rejigged that bit now and feel it flows a little better, see how the subject matters are gathered together. I'll leave it for a bit for others to look at. The article looks better further down at first glance. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 13:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Overall, not looking too bad. It was choppy and is less so now. I think another set of eyes is good to be safe. Any article which can incorporate "Carats and Shtick" has to have something going for it ;) Casliber ( talk · contribs) 20:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I usually ignore the FA stuff - so no comment there. However, the first impression I recall on looking over the article was: the gem images are very poor quality with the appearance of snapshots lacking any attempt at proper focus. Now, I understand they is all we got - and maybe FA criteria wonks don't care, but they are an embarrassment. So rather than arguing and shouting - make some effort at improvement. If someone has access to some good gemstones - get a decent camera and take better pictures. FA or not the article needs higher quality images. Vsmith ( talk) 01:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
One more thing to think about. A really great image will draw in a lot more readers, especially if this article gets through FAC and ends up on the main page one day. Think about it. Do you want readers looking at the main page blurb and the image and thinking "that blue blob doesn't look very exciting", or do you want readers going "wow, what a great picture of a really beautiful gem, I'll go and read that article". Admittedly, they might then just spend all their time looking at the images, and not reading the article, but good images do draw readers to articles and hold them there. And conversely, poor images can be off-putting. As I've said elsewhere, this article does have some good images. Don't let a ruckus over the one that is really blurry distract from that, or the good work being done here. How much does it really cost to take a deep breath, say you are working towards getting better images, and to thank people for the helpful advice provided here? Carcharoth ( talk) 05:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Here's a couple things I think we need to do. Anyone else add what they see. Montanabw (talk) 23:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
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Three main things; I took out two images which were not of the requisite quality to illustrate an encyclopedia article; I corrected US$ to $ (on an American article, there is little chance of the symbol being confused with the Canadian or Zimbabwean dollar); I tidied up the writing in various low-impact ways ( seasons should not be used to denote time as they are relative, "a number of" is best avoided as zero, pi and negative nine are all perfectly good numbers, "words-as-words" are italicized but not capitalized, and Paris doesn't need to be linked). It's a pretty good article. I may have more suggestions later. -- John ( talk) 14:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
If you really feel you must, then I would favor USD over US$. A better solution is to just put the (US) in parens the first time used and then not worry afterwards. TCO ( Reviews needed) 21:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Several good reviewers have basically said "it's good and should go to FA, but it's not quite ready, so with that and a recommendation on my talkpage, I've listed this at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests#Yogo_sapphire. Hopefully it will get a another pre FAC review soon and better photos will appear. PumpkinSky talk 03:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Wow, did this ever drift off topic, from Yogo sapphires from Montana to turtles to free video software. I apologize for getting carried away before, especially to Andrew. I've tried some of the suggestions for reshooting the Yogos I have access to and would like to see what others think. Keep in mind I'm a complete amateur and don't have fancy equipment. These were done with a loupe, digital camera, and changing angles of the stone and lighting. There are many more pics of these two stones that I simply deleted. As different as they may look all the pear shots are the same stone and likewise with the purple stone. The purple stone often comes out looking blue depending on lighting, flash, etc. For both stones, the new shots were all done without flash as all the ones I tried with flash looked really bad. I tried to get these to display in a gallery but it didn't work. PumpkinSky talk 23:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, of that bunch B and E have the most potential. Is your digital camera fully automatic or can you set aperture and shutter speed. If so I'd recommend a makeshift tripod and long exposure and narrow aperture.... Casliber ( talk · contribs) 23:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
B and 4 (maybe 5) get my vote. None are perfect, but you can at least discern faceting of the aluminum oxide now.
I suggest for any of these, try the WP:Graphics Lab to fix them up. They are super fast, super good, and super nice (opposite of me!)
I think we should not have these discussions all the time. That would be an FAC-T distraction. But I think having it once...is very useful. since there is an issue of a lot of FAC writers kind of gaffing off images as a concern. It's educational for them.
TCO ( Reviews needed) 00:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
When it stops raining and such I'll do some outdoor shots and try the other suggestions. PumpkinSky talk 00:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
OK sapphire fans, first I washed them, then I took these with my small 6" tripod, loupe, outdoors with overcast skies, and same digital camera. This time I picked the best shot (good ones were easier this time) and uploaded different crops to show how the more I crop them, the blurrier they get. PumpkinSky talk 01:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Crop 1 on the pear looks pretty good, way better color. Crop 1 or 2 on the purple, good, though not very purple. I know the blur police don't like the original purple, but IMHO that's the one that looks like a Yogo. Montanabw (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I'd say that Crop 1 on the pear looks best, and Crop 3 on the purple. I take Crop 1 on the pear rather than Crop 2 since Crop 2 seems blurry in the thumbnail. Crop 1 on the purple is too small IMO. I don't remember actually seeing an actual yogo, so I don't know exactly what color they are without being influenced by image color bias. Still, it looks fine to me. In the article, we'd want the object to fill the frame and thus illustrate a yogo without a big border. When you click on Crop 3 for more detail it seems obviously blurry. Maybe you could reupload PurpleYogoSapphire6C.jpg with a slightly smaller version to avoid that, but keep the thumbnail the same size in the article. I personally think these images are really nice and significantly better than before. Well done! Jessemv ( talk) 16:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Crop 1 on the pear looks pretty good, way better color. Crop 1 or 2 on the purple, good, though not very purple. Montanabw (talk) 01:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
P.s. This is kind of a segue, but fits into the FAC writers should care about the images meme, I just got a picture of an HF burn. Took me 4 different donation attempts (and even finding people to ask for an image was tricky). Most are much easier than that. But if you are never writing to ask for an image donation, never had to deal with OTRS saying the signoff was not good enough yet...well you are not really doing all you can.
-TCO TCO ( Reviews needed) 00:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What template (serious)? I just send them an email. Volunteers take care of it after that. My job is to find the image on the net...and find an email and a name of a person to ask for the image from. Then write them a nice note and ask for it. First couple times, I dorked it up for Commons, but the volunteer still stepped in and just emailed the donor. They were all very smooth actually. TCO ( Reviews needed) 03:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
To be blunt, the biggest barrier here is equipment so I'm going to describe what I'd consider best practise, and just do what you can. Buy (very cheap on ebay) or make a light tent and light it up. Halogen work lights are a good, cheap way to get a lot of light. You should vary the amount of light on each side until it looks right (by altering the physical distance of the light sources). A small piece of white or black plastic, such as Poly(methyl methacrylate) or HDPE, is probably the best background material, you can buy small scrap pieces for very little. Paper is going to show too many fibres and stuff at this scale. I'd then photograph it on a tripod, focus stacking using a macro lens and/or extension tubes (depending on how small it is). Chances are you might know someone with the right equipment. Using your current camera: Improving the lighting will help the sharpness etc with your current camera quite a bit, because the shutter speed is probably low enough for motion blur at the moment. You need to put the gem at the minimum focus distance of the camera, it will be blurry if you go too close. Make sure your camera is in macro mode (usually a flower symbol). JJ Harrison ( talk) 02:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
What does Voynick say exactly regarding "9, 12 or 18 carat"? The Daily Mail (and virtually everyone else) say the ring is 18-carat, the gem 12. It is also generally accepted to be a Sri Lankan stone. DrKiernan ( talk) 11:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Can you toss us some URLs that we can use and will pass WP:RS? I saw news stuff, but not sure what would pass WP FAC muster. Generally, the Daily Mail is a tabloid, though I suspect on something like this, it's gospel! LOL! Montanabw (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Can we say how many carats have been extracted? It makes more of a point for the reader if we give him something that tells him how much has come out versus how much remains. TCO ( Reviews needed) 18:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I am liking this article. Something about the topic; with the combination of science, art, and geography; is cool. Don't worry...there are so many articles on Wiki that if you want me to stay away from it...I can and will. But I want to read through and give some feedback, vice just plunging in and editing more.
My initial take is pretty close to TK's. It's still aways from FA qual (and will be real work to get it there). It's not just going to be comma fixing, needed. It's clearly GA+ in terms of your love and research into the topic. But maybe not totally nailed yet in terms of all sources checked. And lots of places to make the writing more strongly structured and clip excess words.
P.s. Please don't let the feedback bug ya (or even tell me ahead and I won't make it). I really think the one who does the heavy lifting of putting the first draft together is the HERO.
TCO ( Reviews needed) 20:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The answer to all our questions about the various UK jewels is probably in this reference guide? Tough as it is to prove a negative, the above guide will probably do the trick. Also, we'd love to find a source better than The Daily Mail to prove that Princess Di/Kate Middleton's engagement ring was, in fact, an 18-carat Sri Lankan sapphire. Anyone able to dig? I also found the 18 carat ref in CBS news and the Huffington Post if that helps. Montanabw (talk) 19:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't, but if you want to do up a quote with a proper cite to date and maybe even a direct quote, we can refine from there and plop it in based on AGF.
Just FYI, the reference guide mentioned by Montanabw makes no mention of Yogos; it mentions the provenance of two other sapphires, one Burmese and one Sri Lankan. It also does not discuss the engagement ring, although it has a general note to consult a reference from Garrards for gems obtained after the mid-1800s. Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:32, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
This is as good as I can get, I ain't a-taken' any more. This gem is a .65 carat AAA gem, the 1 carat was not available. But this one is worth $3300, according to the owners. I'd be glad to send anyone the original images if someone wants to dink with them further. I can also crop them even tighter, but maybe you all play with them first and see if that works for you. Yogo2783, the one on the far right, is probably my favorite, but everyone weigh in, I did a tight crop of that one to see what could be done at uber-max crop. Montanabw (talk) 01:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
This is my latest attempt, taken outdoors. Maybe I should sent the stones to Montanabw for getting their portrait taken:
After considerable photo trials, we've come up with these for the pear and purple Yogos. Not pro level, but the best I've come up with so far, and just before the (cough) silly (cough) Great Wiki Blackout of Jan 2012! Hope you enjoy these photos:
: Montanabw's help was invaluable on this. PumpkinSky talk 01:03, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Now that we have the photos settled, some thoughts on final cleanup:
All I can think of, comments or additions from anyone else below are welcome! Montanabw (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments
"but will we have headaches citing to a subscription site?" Look at Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Links_to_sources. I might have the same problem on the Folding@home article, where 99% of the journal citations are through subscriptions. But those subscriptions are most likely available through a library (especially one at a university) so how is that different than citing a book? My understanding of policy is that a citation is still valid under those conditions. Also think of a deadlink. If a reference goes away, is the content relying on that deadlink completely invalid? No. Of course, its always proper to provide references to available sources, and I fully believe subscription sites are just fine. As I'm on a university network, I can probably look up that subscription site information if you want. Let me know. Jessemv ( talk) 02:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Good stuff. Like how you all are powering this interesting combination of finery, Rocky Mountain history and geology along! TCO ( Reviews needed) 03:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
So far, I'm very impressed with the quality of the article. It certainly is reliable and has high-quality writing. Well done! A couple things that caught my eye:
And that's basically it. Why? Because the quality of the text is really impressive! Your hard work and dedication is very evident. :D Jessemv ( talk) 03:29, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
And "to its confluence with" was recently removed. Can this be put back? I really like the way it sounds, and "confluence" is a high-quality word that you'd probably find in an encyclopedia. Considering PumpkinSky's devotion and investment into the article, I didn't want to just put it back. Why was it removed? Jessemv ( talk) 19:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The paragraph of the Yogo area is based on a map on p. 116 of the Voynick book. If I scan it into digital form, would that be a) better than the county map currently in the location section and b) a valid use of fair use -- and someone help write a good fair use rationale that will stick? PumpkinSky talk 21:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The Gauthier MS thesis I referred to earlier has a more detailed map of the dike geology which shows more mining locations. Probably more detail than needed, but the mines and topography might be useful. Gauthier gives credt for it to an earlier work by a J. P. Dahy in 1991 published in
I haven't found online access to it, but might be available to a local Montana resident. It was preceded by another MS thesis by Dahy for the Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology in 1988 - haven't found that online either. Vsmith ( talk) 00:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if the infobox is really needed. I suspect many of the physical properties are identical to sapphire gems in general or even just aluminum oxide. Not a push as I know Wikians feel more comfortable with boxes. But some articles (like art) tend not to have them. I love technical detail for a hard core chemical article, but I just feel that this is not mostly about that and they can get that at Al2O3 or regular sapphire article. TCO ( Reviews needed) 04:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I just aquired a copy of Voynick and have been doing some reading. I noted the captions on historic images in the book and the article were quite similar - so loaded the Milly Ringold image and found the source of the caption. The image description on the file page is copied from the source and the caption in the article copies from that. Seems that we need to credit the bigskyjournal.com page as a reference for our image caption and maybe use caution about copying directly their text. See the copyright notice at the bottom of their page, the image may be "in the public domain", but their description of it surely isn't.
Our caption for that image "Millie Ringold, c. 1900. The structure in the background is a waterwheel used to power a crusher at Yogo City's Weatherwax Mine" the source caption: "The structure in the background is a waterwheel that was used to power a crusher at Yogo City's Weatherwax Mine." I'm no copyright expert, but that seems to be problematic. Vsmith ( talk) 01:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so via my watchlist I just learned that PumpkinSky has been blocked for sockpuppetry, which based on my experiences with him, is really unfortunate. I also read Montanabw's response on this page, which was well written and I really agree with. PumpkinSky is currently the primary editor of this article with 454 edits, to Montanabw who's in second place with 37. This article is really, really close to FA. Why did the issue have to erupt now?! :( So, my question is, so now what's the plan? We need a new leader I guess. :D Jessemv ( talk) 06:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm popping the external links here -- I was the one who added some of them. I think a couple need to go back in: The two Tiffany Iris Brooch links. The Claudiaeneler page shows the entire brooch, with stem, the "Bedazzled" page shows detail of the brooch in the header. As any available images are copyrighted (as is, I think the entire work, though maybe not if Pauling is deceased) and this is probably the most famous piece of Yogo Sapphire jewelry in existence, I feel some way for readers to see what it looks like is nice. As for the rest, I'm keeping them here as they might be backup refs to Voynich. I added a couple more possibilities. Montanabw (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
The history seems to end abruptly in 2008. However the current owner ended abruptly in the mine in 2012. http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20120321/NEWS01/203210311/Great-Falls-Yogo-mine-owner-killed-mining-accident — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.110.165.221 ( talk) 21:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Just ran WP:Checklinks on this article and found several issues including a couple of deadlinks. result Jesse V. ( talk) 23:05, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Moving the discussion back here. I think we need VSmith or someone to clarify the strike and dip compass orientation stuff. I read the wikilinked article and I still don't quite get it. I read it a while back and tried to reword it, but it still confuses me -- I presume that the 75-degree orientation has something to do with the line of the deposit underground at an angle (hence the technical terminology but I can speak as a minerology noob and admit it's confusing me. Can we clarify that? Montanabw (talk) 17:58, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
I've fiddled a bit with the location section wording. The section appears to be based on measurements/interpretations of the small scale map in Voynick (p. 116). Seems perhaps the USGS 7.5' quadrangle maps could be used for checking here ... thinking. Does the Etymology section belong here (in location) or should it be moved to history? Vsmith ( talk) 19:53, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
As I've been following this article for a while now, I don't think it's appropriate for me to put this in the peer review, so I'm placing it here. I've read the article very carefully, but haven't checked any of the refs. Still, I think there's a pretty good chance that the writing will pass at an FAC, for I find it very detailed, concise, and generally professional. I am impressed! Some thoughts:
That's about all I can find. And by the way, this article contains 5973 words. Good job! :D Jesse V. ( talk) 01:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Also, check out: http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/view/Peer_reviewer#page:Yogo_sapphire These suggestions are from an automated script, so not all of them apply. Still, I think you should make sure everything in there is addressed. Jesse V. ( talk) 16:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Got the Blackfoot language dictionary, no "Yogo." If anyone is interested, this is an Algonquian language, by the way. Put a serious analysis into a note within the article. Went through the entire "y" section, and zilch for anything related blue, sky or romance. For fun, I noticed a few words might be screwed up by English speakers and pronounced "yogo," so I'm noting the here with meanings, but all of this is OR or SYNTH, so just here for everyone to have fun with the concepts: "yo'ko means "head off" or "turn back" (Which, to my ear, might give the "going AWOL or going over the hill" theory some vague mistranslated merit, but that is just a wild guess on my part) "yoohto" means "hear", "yoohkiit" means "different," "yoohko" means "await" or "to wait for," "yoohk" means at or by an entrance, and "yo'ki means to shut or close. "yo'kaa" means "sleep," "Yoohsini" means "to knock senseless." My favorite, "yaoo" is an exclamation of woe, akin to "oh no! Not again!" Going down the rabbit hole a little farther "moto" means "spring" (the season) Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Did we miss this? Sketch of the Tiffany Iris Brooch! Too late to add to article?
How about using this corner of a 1902 topo sheet to suppliment the location description. It shows Yogo Creek, Yogo Peak, Yogo townsite, Utica, Judith River and its Middle Fork and the location of the mine. It is a redo of an earlier 1897 map. Vsmith ( talk) 01:51, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Was over at the mineral museum in Butte, where they have several yogos of various sorts. Got this one, worth adding or is (cell phone camera) quality too low? Hard to say when I will get there again and if I'll happen to have a better camera if I do... feelings not hurt if deemed too pixellated. Montanabw (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
does this sentence say anything meaningful?
Many gemologists consider them among the finest[dubious – discuss] sapphires in the world
"many gemologists" makes me want to ask who in particular, or at least get a citation "among the finest" X "in the world" sounds like weasel words,
so we get left with "gemologists consider them sapphires"
I think that sentence could go, in fact I'm sufficiently convinced by writing this out that Im going to remove it, feel free to add it back if you think I have erred. EdwardLane ( talk) 09:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Congrats on progressing the article. I appreciate having more images in there and also researching more content (probably not easy, given the niche nature of the topic). Also, this is an interesting example of a new Wiki article that actually sort of has decent viewership, but is not a new event (in other words, you filled a gap).
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC) (TCO)
Lead is one of the most important parts of the article and could use some work to be better (to make the gem shine!)
(numbered comments, being edited in, please reply below by number, not interposting)
1. It feels "long". I would not begrudge a country, for instance, 4 medium-long paras, but this is a much less notable topic. Maybe part of it is the writing, too, but I bet if you just put an artificial restriction on yourself to cut 25% of the text (forcing yourself to prioritize), that it will lead to something more interesting to read.
2. First sentence is too long. Be more simple and direct and you will entertain the reader more. Like a punch. In the face. ;-) Srsly, leave the pigeonfeet stuff for some other sentence in the lead.
Consider: "The Yogo sapphire is a type of corundum gemstone, found only in Yogo Gulch, in Montana." Then, probably get into the color stuff and the difference with other sapphires (not just color, but price, expert praise) pretty quickly. This sort of thing orients the reader. The details of mountains and Indians can come in a later lead para that talks about the location and the geology and such.
3. I don't think you need to mention the town, state, and country. (why not the continent, world, solar system, galaxy?) Also wikilinking the various parts is deprecated (wl Des Moines, Iowa entirely, not part by part). Also, I think the vast amount of people will have heard of Montana. Even furriners. I mean they watch cowboy movies and such. Plus there is the Wikilink for those who goofed off in grade school geography class.
4. Don't link multiple terms that are not separated by at least a comma. "dipping resistive igneous dike". The reason is that you can't tell if the entire term is wikiliked or what. Pick the most important thing to link to. Probably igneous dike. From there, the reader can get to the other terms or to an understanding of types of dikes. If not, then maybe consider simplifying the technical discussion in lead to use less words that need wl-definition.
5. Last two sentences in first para feel a little unrelated to the rest of the para. Might be better if we looked at the lead organization again.
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 18:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Details of geometry/geology really need a picture to rapidly understand concepts. Imaging trying to describe to someone in text what a square knot is...versus having some explanatory diagram.
Do a Google images shearch on "igneous dike" for a few good diagrams (I think an explanatory diagram is better than some photo). You could show a normal dike and the dipping sort. I quite like the ones with the volcanos. It's like sex appeal to a nerd.
Get someone on Wiki to draw the diagram from scratch. I advise reaching out to User:Jkwchui who is both a scientist and graphic artist, but there are other superstars out there too. If you are nice to the image people, it is amazing what you can get as a result.
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 19:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
MBW:
"I advise reaching out to User:Jkwchui", also the Graphics Lab. I mean when I had 3 peeps fighting over who gets to help me, I sorta think there is still spare capacity to help other people. ;-)
Sky,
1. You gotta ask the right way, man. Little outreach and humor and such will get people to go through fires for ya. This is not just some grunt work you are outsourcing. Kiss a little ass. Reach out to the dude on the other side of the modem with raport.
2. And care about the output...have a vision of what you are trying to accomplish. The image people love working with article writers who have a concept of how images actually convey information to readers. Images are not just random raisins in the pie! They are pedagical tools...and for complex geometric (or scientific) items are extremely powerful compared to pure text in making the content accessible to non-technical readers.
3. Images are also incredibly high view within articles. citation needed Make the place people put a lot of eyeball time on, be something we make look good. That is why you rightly got pushed to get BETTER with the original gem images. A sparkling article without beautiful pics of items that are primarily famous for their appearance)?
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 21:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Not policy or even MOS. And yeah, I get the TCO thing, sign in please. Dreadstar ☥ 23:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Of course, this is still not common practice on the Wiki, so am in no way saying this is policy. Just a TCO thang (you wouldn't understand). ;-) Another idea which would be cool would be to show a typical Yugo versus a typical Montana sappphire. I know MontanaBW had comments about the difference in our article talk, so showing that with photos could be good content. It's high gain because it orients the reader. Helps him distinguish things. 64.134.165.46 ( talk) 19:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
BTW, I think you are completely justified in removing my other goofy remarks, have right on your side...I was treating the talk page too much like a chat room. And of course I am breaking rules by violating my block. But this one thing where you dismiss my comment and then close it, is a mistake. Ask you respectfully to unhide, please. Even if I'm wrong and that is not the direction to take the article, it is on topic to discuss that sort of thing. And I'm not even imposing it, just raising it as an idea. BTW, I did find this interesting shot of a Montana saph (not a Yogo) and I wonder if it is showing a stereotypical example...is showing what MBW thinks of when she says she recognizes differences. 64.134.164.188 ( talk) 00:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Dull under artificial light, maybe. Or just a bad shot. Hard to say. Montanabw (talk) 00:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC) |
"Sapphires are a color variety of corundum, a crystalline form of aluminium oxide (Al2O3).[14] Corundum is one of the hardest minerals, rating 9 on the Mohs scale.[15] Corundum gems of most colors are called sapphires, except for red ones, which are called rubies.[16] The term "Yogo sapphire" refers only to sapphires from the Yogo Gulch.[17] The cornflower blue color of the Yogo results from trace amounts of iron and titanium.[11] Yogo sapphires are unique in that they are free of cavities and inclusions, have high uniform clarity, lack color zoning, and do not need heat treating because their cornflower blue coloring is uniform and deep.[18] Unlike Asian sapphires, they maintain their brilliance in artificial light.[19] Yogos present an advantage to gemcutters:[20] since they are found as primary constituent minerals within an igneous bedrock rather than in sedimentary alluvial deposits where most other sapphires are located,[5][18] they retain a perfect or near perfect crystalline shape, making cutting much easier, as does their lack of inclusions, color zoning, or cloudiness.[20] Yogos also exhibit a triangular pattern on the basal plane of the flattened crystals,[21] with thin rhombohedral crystal faces, a feature absent in sapphires from other parts of Montana.[22][23][24]
I was wondering what the topic of this para is, but I guess it is "science of how Yugo's differ from other sapphires". It sort of reads a little "dense" or as if stray facts were thrown together. Maybe cutting it in two would help it.
Another idea, could we see a picture of an Asian sapphire and a Yugo under artificial light (to see the noted difference)?
64.134.165.46 ( talk) 20:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)