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![]() | A fact from Yixian glazed pottery luohans appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 10 March 2014 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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So I tackled this based on a note left at the Museums project. I realized it would be better as a general article about luohans since this group of eight seems quite notable. It was only in doing more research to broaden the scope that I found Seated Luohan from Yixian which seems to be a good start at that topic. I think this one has some decent history on the one at the Royal Ontario Museum so I don't think it should be deleted outright. But maybe it should be merged with the Seated... one and both should be at a better title? Also pinging User:Jononmac46 who created the other article as well StarM 03:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I have no clue whatsoever how to get it out of AFC, but User:DGG said that any editor can do what we believe reasonable. Don't know if that means we can remove all the AFC banners or those need to stay so long as it's in draft space. I moved it from AFC space. I think the concept is notable but the info is scattered across too many articles including the See Alsos and the Seated... article referenced above which isn't helpful to readers. I think, but I could be wrong, that the Arhat is the being, but these are statues of luohans. I'm not sure if something especially notable about this subset vs. statues in general. I think the article (whether here or at seated or a 3rrd location entirely) should be about the statues as a whole with a subset of these seven/eight found in the cave, with a subset (if needed) for the museum pieces if there's something that sets them apart. StarM 03:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not too familiar with the different styles of referencing, but I think it would make more sense to the reader if the full cites (i.e Steinhardt, Nancy Shatzman, "The Luohan that Came from Afar" (PDF) .... and Jump up ^ Sickman, p. 483, note 11 for p. 200; ....) come first, followed by the abbreviated cites. If that's a UK v. US style guide thing it's fine as is, just seemed confusing to me StarM 03:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
First, you abused WP:AGF from the start with me, so I'm not compelled to adhere to it in your case. Start the thing with a chip on your shoulder, you won't win.
Your first mistake was to conflate me with some other editor you've apparently had problems with, per your snarky edit summary "it's not peacock if quotes from (2) RSs, and these are VERY famous. some idiot blocked this at AFC on grounds of notability." Sorry you had a bad day, princess, but I am not that editor, and you need to take that up with them.
Your second mistake was to be bitey with me at my talkpage, and incorrectly as you were and are in the wrong, at that. I've been here a bit longer than you, and since you do not seem to have read WP:PEACOCK as you directed me to, I will quote from it here since you are too lazy to read it yourself, and I've bolded what you need to read so you don't hurt yourself.
So, in my first edit, per policy, I removed what appears to any experienced reader to be puffery, complete with scare quotes, which actually detracted from the impression that the statues are either really famous or celebrated. Those claims need to be properly explained in the lead paragraph, no later. Fame speaks for itself. If something is truly famous and celebrated, that information, properly sourced, should be where the claim is first made. If something is quote unquote "famous" and "celebrated", it appears as if it implies skepticism or disagreement with the quoted terminology. It's not a proper quotation or use of quotes. In my second edit, I tagged both places where citations should be with {{cn}}, which you removed, showing you further have WP:OWN issues, your third mistake. Any admin reading this can see I was being constructive and that you reverted me without fixing your problems.
This is not your article, this is now Wikipedia's article, and I have every right to try and correct your very poor writing about an interesting topic that may indeed be both famous and celebrated. I will now tag it with the {{tl|Peacock inline}} template. Your best bet is to quit editwarring and fix the issue. The onus is on you to prove, in the lead paragraph, that these statues, beautiful and exquisite as they are, are also famous and celebrated. Such wording does beg the question, if they are indeed either famous or celebrated, why has it taken 13 years of Wikipedia before we had an article on them?
Your fourth mistake, keeping score, was to troll me with the second dumping of your vomit, editing and then removing the edit just so you could violate WP:POINT (and good job, you are a professional troll-not something I would aspire to or be proud of, but it suits you). You should be fixing your poorly written lead rather than going after someone who was not going after you. I never heard of you before today and had no axe to grind with you. You changed that. Have I used strong language with you? Proudly. I have no doubt that you are competent in your field, but you are a poor writer and a worse sport. Punch the wall, have a drink, whatever, but the next time you leave a nastygram on someone's talkpage, don't. I didn't shit on your talkpage, but I had to clean your shit off of mine, and it turned out you were wrong all along, surprise surprise.
Fix it or we can take it to WP:3O. I'm not going away, and I'm not out to trash the article. Well-written, it would be quite good.-- Kintetsubuffalo ( talk) 11:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
![]() |
Reading the above discussion and examining the edits, I conclude addition of "famous" and "celebrated" is unacceptable. Two solutions come to mind here: 1) Simply remove them from the lead intro per WP:PEACOCK--such words don't add any more meaning; it's assumed their notable or famous because they have an article here. 2) Attribute these words to whoever has described them like this and place it somewhere else in the article. Of course, merely these words won't be of much value and maybe a more expanded quotation can be taken from the given reference to which it is sourced. Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 11:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC) |
If an object is very famous within its field, as this group is, that in itself is one of the most important things about it, and certainly belongs in the lead."The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.[2] The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources".
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from Yixian glazed pottery luohans appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 March 2014 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
So I tackled this based on a note left at the Museums project. I realized it would be better as a general article about luohans since this group of eight seems quite notable. It was only in doing more research to broaden the scope that I found Seated Luohan from Yixian which seems to be a good start at that topic. I think this one has some decent history on the one at the Royal Ontario Museum so I don't think it should be deleted outright. But maybe it should be merged with the Seated... one and both should be at a better title? Also pinging User:Jononmac46 who created the other article as well StarM 03:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I have no clue whatsoever how to get it out of AFC, but User:DGG said that any editor can do what we believe reasonable. Don't know if that means we can remove all the AFC banners or those need to stay so long as it's in draft space. I moved it from AFC space. I think the concept is notable but the info is scattered across too many articles including the See Alsos and the Seated... article referenced above which isn't helpful to readers. I think, but I could be wrong, that the Arhat is the being, but these are statues of luohans. I'm not sure if something especially notable about this subset vs. statues in general. I think the article (whether here or at seated or a 3rrd location entirely) should be about the statues as a whole with a subset of these seven/eight found in the cave, with a subset (if needed) for the museum pieces if there's something that sets them apart. StarM 03:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not too familiar with the different styles of referencing, but I think it would make more sense to the reader if the full cites (i.e Steinhardt, Nancy Shatzman, "The Luohan that Came from Afar" (PDF) .... and Jump up ^ Sickman, p. 483, note 11 for p. 200; ....) come first, followed by the abbreviated cites. If that's a UK v. US style guide thing it's fine as is, just seemed confusing to me StarM 03:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
First, you abused WP:AGF from the start with me, so I'm not compelled to adhere to it in your case. Start the thing with a chip on your shoulder, you won't win.
Your first mistake was to conflate me with some other editor you've apparently had problems with, per your snarky edit summary "it's not peacock if quotes from (2) RSs, and these are VERY famous. some idiot blocked this at AFC on grounds of notability." Sorry you had a bad day, princess, but I am not that editor, and you need to take that up with them.
Your second mistake was to be bitey with me at my talkpage, and incorrectly as you were and are in the wrong, at that. I've been here a bit longer than you, and since you do not seem to have read WP:PEACOCK as you directed me to, I will quote from it here since you are too lazy to read it yourself, and I've bolded what you need to read so you don't hurt yourself.
So, in my first edit, per policy, I removed what appears to any experienced reader to be puffery, complete with scare quotes, which actually detracted from the impression that the statues are either really famous or celebrated. Those claims need to be properly explained in the lead paragraph, no later. Fame speaks for itself. If something is truly famous and celebrated, that information, properly sourced, should be where the claim is first made. If something is quote unquote "famous" and "celebrated", it appears as if it implies skepticism or disagreement with the quoted terminology. It's not a proper quotation or use of quotes. In my second edit, I tagged both places where citations should be with {{cn}}, which you removed, showing you further have WP:OWN issues, your third mistake. Any admin reading this can see I was being constructive and that you reverted me without fixing your problems.
This is not your article, this is now Wikipedia's article, and I have every right to try and correct your very poor writing about an interesting topic that may indeed be both famous and celebrated. I will now tag it with the {{tl|Peacock inline}} template. Your best bet is to quit editwarring and fix the issue. The onus is on you to prove, in the lead paragraph, that these statues, beautiful and exquisite as they are, are also famous and celebrated. Such wording does beg the question, if they are indeed either famous or celebrated, why has it taken 13 years of Wikipedia before we had an article on them?
Your fourth mistake, keeping score, was to troll me with the second dumping of your vomit, editing and then removing the edit just so you could violate WP:POINT (and good job, you are a professional troll-not something I would aspire to or be proud of, but it suits you). You should be fixing your poorly written lead rather than going after someone who was not going after you. I never heard of you before today and had no axe to grind with you. You changed that. Have I used strong language with you? Proudly. I have no doubt that you are competent in your field, but you are a poor writer and a worse sport. Punch the wall, have a drink, whatever, but the next time you leave a nastygram on someone's talkpage, don't. I didn't shit on your talkpage, but I had to clean your shit off of mine, and it turned out you were wrong all along, surprise surprise.
Fix it or we can take it to WP:3O. I'm not going away, and I'm not out to trash the article. Well-written, it would be quite good.-- Kintetsubuffalo ( talk) 11:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
![]() |
Reading the above discussion and examining the edits, I conclude addition of "famous" and "celebrated" is unacceptable. Two solutions come to mind here: 1) Simply remove them from the lead intro per WP:PEACOCK--such words don't add any more meaning; it's assumed their notable or famous because they have an article here. 2) Attribute these words to whoever has described them like this and place it somewhere else in the article. Of course, merely these words won't be of much value and maybe a more expanded quotation can be taken from the given reference to which it is sourced. Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 11:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC) |
If an object is very famous within its field, as this group is, that in itself is one of the most important things about it, and certainly belongs in the lead."The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.[2] The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources".