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It doesn't seem to be a mass media, but a personal site created for study of India culture. Whether third-party unconfirmed undirect sources presnet NPOV position? The article definitely needs POV corrections. Vlad fedorov 05:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is also written in her book and book by Mitrokhin. Read these books. Biophys 05:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I read the fiction. It's just a fiction. Vlad fedorov 05:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I provided an additional internet reference, which is consistent with the book, simply for reader's convenience. Remember, this is not biography of Gandhi. So, LP rules apply only with respect to Albats. All sources satisfy Wikipedia criteria. Biophys 05:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Vlad, could you please provide here any citations (in Russian) from the interview in Echo of Moscow where Albats "publicly censored and in a brusque and rude way critisized journalist Anna Arutunian"? [2] If you can not, this should be modified. Biophys Is it this?
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Вы ни дня не занимались репортерской журналистикой, ни дня не занимались журналистскими расследованиями - я прочитала все, что вы написали – все. Во всех – не так много, к сожалению, на это нужно было меньше часа времени. Кстати, вы написали одну заметку этим летом в газете «Ве Нейшн» - есть такая известная левая газета в США - вы бы посмотрели, там главный редактор, Катрина Ван ден Хиден написала статью об Анне Политковской совсем недавно. Так вот я хотела вас спросить – убитого журналиста вы отхлестали по щекам. Пожалуй, никто себе не позволил так, ссылаясь на вторичные источники, написать после смерти Ани. Скажите, все-таки, что вами двигало?
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Я не могу сказать, что я отхлестала по щекам, я совершенно не намерена была этого делать, и мне не показалось, что материал вышел таким уж критичным, что можно назвать…
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Вы написали, что Аня не занималась журналистикой, вы написали, что ее задача была обвинять, а не искать правду – это цитата, я могу вам показать вашу статью, вот она, вся здесь, это прямой перевод. Вы видите, что это ваша статья, и это прямой перевод. И я хорошо читаю по английски – легко, свободно. Вы написали, что она не искала правду – цитирую вас – она не пыталась найти правду, она пыталась только обвинять официальных лиц.
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Нет, не только.
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Что вами двигало, когда вы писали?
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Нет, я не хотела сказать, что она не искала правду.
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Вы сказали именно это. Скажите, вам стыдно сейчас?
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Нет, мне не стыдно.
Ю.РОСТ: Жень, прости, пожалуйста. Я думаю, что тут все ясно, думаю, что силы неравны. И самое главное, обида…
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Видишь, Аня защитить себя не может.
In her blog, Arutunyan said: "I had decided to reflect a pro-government position because a critical one had already gotten coverage in the Western media." Biophys 00:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, we could write an article entitled "Arutunyan scandal" or "Defamation of Politkoskaya after her death", but this topic is not notable enough for Wikipedia. Biophys 05:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It's a Wikipedia and not an original research playground. Moreover, we don't know if cited by you excerpts from the aired program are full (non-censored) or incomplete (censored). Most people believe they are censored. Could you site reliable source which confirms that your excerpts are not censured or cut? Vlad fedorov 05:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
You wrote: "Yevgenia Albats, who was relatively unknown by the general public journalist". It is exactly the same what Putin said with regard to Politkovskaya death. Biophys 06:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Biophys I have entered you ISBN number of Albats book in Google catalog and haven't found it. Please see the following link http://www.google.com/custom?q=site:worldcatlibraries.org+isbn+0374527385&cx=010897078278572180631:dhkk_ymtfpc&cof=GFNT%3A%23000000%3BGALT%3A%23008000%3BLH%3A0%3BCX%3Awww%252Egoogle%252Ecom%3BVLC%3A%23663399%3BDIV%3A%23FFFFFF%3BFORID%3A1%3BT%3A%23000000%3BALC%3A%230000CC%3BLC%3A%230000CC%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fgp%2Fsearch%3Fie%3DUTF8%26tag%3Dchuvashiaportal%26index%3Dbooks%26linkCode%3Dur2%26camp%3D1789%26creative%3D9325%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Echr%2Eru%2Fa%2Egif%3BGIMP%3A%23000000%3BLP%3A1%3BBGC%3A%23FFFFFF%3BAH%3Aleft&sa=Search&hl=en&client=pub-0147199382062428
The answer of Google catalog:
Your search - site:worldcatlibraries.org ISBN 0374527385 - did not match any documents.
Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords.
That means, basically, that you have forged your source. Either you should supply existing source or you give link to amazon.com, google.com, yahoo.com book catalogs. I know this trick with citing unexisting books as reliable sources in Wikipedia. You have 24 hours before I delete all your edits sourced to the unidentified book. Vlad fedorov 06:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
ISBN corrected. There are several editions. Biophys 06:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The answer:
Your search - site:worldcatlibraries.org ISBN 0374527385 - did not match any documents.
Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords.
Maybe you should try another ISBN? There are many combinations indeed!!! Vlad fedorov 06:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Who the hell is Mr. Kashin and why is he quoted as a reliable source? Colchicum 12:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Besides, I have found no sources that would support that Yelena Kalashnikova has ever existed. It looks like an alias of somebody (maybe Kashin himself). She is hardly a reliable source. Like Alyona Lybchenko (tm). Colchicum 15:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not a reaction of Albats. It's a scandal in which she was involved. Very good biography for typical radio DJ. Vlad fedorov 04:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia rules say two things with regard to BLP policies.
1. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. 2. Neutral sources must be used. Any "exceptional" and especially potentially defamatory claims must be supported by multiple reliable source. All of that especially applies to libelous "claims" made with regard to a living person. One can not simply say "alleged" and then include a poorly sourced libelous accusation of LP described in the biography.
There are the following statements in this article that do not satisfy such criteria:
(a) Allegations of crude and extremely uncivil behavior: "Arutunian claimed that Yevgenia Albats had approached Arutunian after the show and had demanded her "to leave the profession", threatening that she had reported Arutunian's article to her boss in the US, The Nation's chief editor, and promised to "look after all [Arutunian's] publications from now on".[11][10][3]"
This statement (a) is a claim of one person who has no good scientific or journalist credentials and who is personally involved as a side in the controversy (of course we do not know if she actually fabricated the claim - but that is exactly the problem with unreliable sources).
(b) Unsubstantiated accusations of fraud: "According to Kashin, Albats obtained her Higher School of Economics professorship due to appartchik talent of rector Yaroslav Kuzminov and not for her real education contributions". That was said about Harvard graduate and author of several books!
This statement (b) is an "exceptional claim" which is not substantiated by anything at all and claimed in only one source.
(c) False claims that Albats supports fascism and nationalism. Vlad inserted the following text: "This article written by Yevgenia Albats was met with fierce criticism by the Jewish community[13][14] and democratic parties[15][16][17][18] for the support of fascism and nationalism". This is simply not true. Her article was about freedom of assembly; and the cited sources ([13] to [18]) do not blame her personally for the support of fascism and nationalism. Biophys 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
So, all of that should be removed immediately.
Please do not break this message to parts. Biophys 15:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia rules say two things with regard to BLP policies.
1. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous.
2. Neutral sources must be used.
Any "exceptional" and especially potentially defamatory claims must be supported by multiple reliable source. All of that especially applies to libelous "claims" made with regard to a living person. One can not simply say "alleged" and then include a poorly sourced libelous accusation of LP described in the biography.
There are the following statements in this article that do not satisfy such criteria:
(a) Allegations of crude and extremely uncivil behavior: "Arutunian claimed that Yevgenia Albats had approached Arutunian after the show and had demanded her "to leave the profession", threatening that she had reported Arutunian's article to her boss in the US, The Nation's chief editor, and promised to "look after all [Arutunian's] publications from now on".[11][10][3]".
(b) Unsubstantiated accusations of fraud: "According to Kashin, Albats obtained her Higher School of Economics professorship due to appartchik talent of rector Yaroslav Kuzminov and not for her real education contributions"
Statement (a) is a claim of one person who has no good scientific or journalist credentials and who is personally involved as a side in the controversy (of course we do not know if she actually fabricated the claim - but that is exactly the problem with unreliable sources). Statement (b) is "exceptional claim" which is not substantiated by anything and supported by only one source. So, all of that should be removed immediately.
We also should keep some balance. She organized a lot of different talk shows (every week). So we can only tell about a couple of most important or representative of them, and write just a paragraph about each. Biophys 00:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Please do not break this message to parts. Biophys 15:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(c) False claims that Albats supports fascism and nationalism. Vlad inserted the following text: "This article written by Yevgenia Albats was met with fierce criticism by the Jewish community[13][14] and democractic parties[15][16][17][18] for the support of fascism and nationalism". This is simply not true. Her article was about freedom of assembly; and the cited sources do not blame her personally for the support of fascism and nationalism. Biophys 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
However, even the yellow press do not make such outrageous claims as those inserted by Vlad in this Wikipedia article. The worst passage I found in these "sources" is the following: "Евгения Альбац – одинокая проповедница «двойных стандартов» по принципу «лишь бы против власти». Вполне сознательно занималась обеспечением поддержки ультра-националистов со стороны либералов, путем публикаций о нарушении их прав на свободу собраний. Так, в своей публикации на страницах ЕЖ.Ру Альбац одна из первых вбросила тезис о необходимости разрешить радикалам проведение Марша 4 ноября." It does NOT say she supports fascism and nationalism (unless one wants to use citation out of context). It only says she is "against Russian government" and "therefore" supports the right of nationalists for a demonstration. Biophys 17:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
False Flags by Biophys
(a) http://www.agentura.ru/dossier/russia/people/albaz/ Agentura.ru Dossier Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(b) http://polithexogen.ru/info/38854.html Boorishness as a World View by Yelena Kalashnikova (in Russian) http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/10/26/54497.html Full Albats by Oleg Kashin, business newspaper Vzgliad, October 26, 2006 (in Russian) Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(c) There is no fraud, but cronism. The word 'fraud' was introduced by user Ilgiz. Should we report him, Biophys? http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/10/26/54497.html Full Albats by Oleg Kashin, business newspaper Vzgliad, October 26, 2006 (in Russian) Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Everything is supported. Please, do not write here false and empty accusations and do not violate good faith rules. Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The underlying problem, in my opinion, is the personal dislike of me and revenge of user Biophys against me for the following:
Vlad, what are you doing in this and other articles is harassment and personal attack on me and all my articles and edits. I understand: you have good intentions. You want to protect the Putn's administration and FSB from any critical information. The problem is: you are provoking me to create new and new articles which I was not going to create. You possibly noticed that I have created article Moscow Serbsky Institute because we argued about Boris Stomakhin, and this article about Albats because you harassed me with article about Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation. If you do not leave me and my articles and edits alone, I might create the following new articles:
1. Criticism of Russian government. That could include such interesting sub-topics as Nuclear proliferation by Russian Federation; Neo-soviet colonialism with regard to former Soviet republics, Penetration of Western markets by FSB, Restoration of dictatorship in Russia, and so on.
2. FSB operations in the Internet. That would include SORM, FSB hackers, and Prosecution of Russian bloggers - see FSB brigades in the Internet [3] but it would also include the "fallic" Rakhmankov case.
3. Gang from Lubyanka - Litvinenko book
4. Blowing up Russia: Terror from within - Litvinenko book
Do you want that? Biophys 14:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
1956 as a birth year is almost certainly incorrect. It is never cited anywhere besides Russian Wikipedia and its mirrors, while 15.09.1958 is in many sources.
I think the information about the family she was born to is relevant. The onliner Mark Albats was a GRU spy on the other hand misrepresnts the source. IMHO it is wrong to represent military intelligence during the Great Patriotic War as something shameful. I have slavishly translated Vlad's source although I am not sure that I understand what Mark did for the GRU.
I have expanded the biography section a little including the contraversial case of restoring the employment by a court decision. I was trying to be factual (neither EA wrote a crappy article but get away due to the frivolius litigation, nor heroic EA defended the jurnalist's integrity against the goverment lackeys...
I think the story with Arutyunyan desrves more than just two sentences. There was a lot of noise in the blogosphere and significant old-media attnetion. On the other hand to write the story in the NPOV style we need:
It looks like a topic of a new Controversy over Arutyunyan article, but I am to lazy to write it Alex Bakharev 15:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/11/29/58857.html Максим Григорьев: Возвращение живых мертвецов – 2
Впрочем, «Яблоко» не одиноко в своей fake-метаморфозе – обсудим еще одну серию «Возвращения живых мертвецов». Поведение известной «воинствующей» журналистки Е. Альбац идеально удовлетворяет fake-принципу.
А)В передаче радио «Свобода» от 23.11.05 на вопрос ведущего: «А по каким признакам вы считали марш 4 ноября… фашистским?» – она отвечает: «Собственно, ключевым участником этого марша была организация, которая против нелегальной иммиграции… На этом шествии 4 ноября большая группа людей поднимала правую руку в фашистском приветствии. Более того, один из организаторов, господин Белов… предложил собравшимся … поднять правую руку, вскинуть правую руку». Разве из этого не следует, что журналистка считает ДПНИ фашистской организацией?
Б)В передаче «Эха Москвы» в ноябре 2005 года на вопрос: «Почему не пригласили в эфир этих фашистов?» – журналистка отвечает: «Мы не пригласили фашистов, потому что на «Эхе Москвы» пропаганда фашизма запрещена».
В) Однако в передаче на «Эхе Москвы» от 5.11.2006 участвует лидер ДПНИ, персонально приглашенный борцом с фашизмом Е. Альбац. Этот же человек ранее публично назван ею фашистом. Совсем недавно Е. Альбац была подвергнута критике в журналистском сообществе за некорректное поведение в эфире с молодой журналисткой А. Арутюнян. По сравнению с ней лидер ДПНИ получает более чем радушный прием.
Уважаемая Евгения Марковна! Вы имеете право на любую точку зрения. Только определитесь. Согласно законам логики одновременно нельзя: А) считать ДПНИ фашистской организацией; Б) считать, что «Эхо Москвы» не ведет пропаганду фашизма, в частности, не приглашает ДПНИ; В) предоставлять ДПНИ трибуну на «Эхе Москвы». Впрочем, у fake-структур своя fake-логика, делающая соответствие обычной логике необязательным. Vlad fedorov 08:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I corrected the transliteration of the name of Albats' father [4], but Vlad fedorov reverted my edits with the following summary: "rv - deletions of information which Ilgiz and Colchicum personally dislike. Deletion of sourced material is a violation of Wikipedia policies and vandalism." [5] What the hell is going on? Colchicum 13:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I made some minor changes. But the remaining version is a clear violation of WP:BLP rules that require NPOV (I provided an explanation above). Biophys 23:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Can anyone explain what does it mean: "according to Kashin, Albats obtained her Higher School of Economics professorship due to apparatchik talent of rector Yaroslav Kuzminov and not for her real education contributions.[21]"? Was Yaroslav Kuzminov a person responsible for appointment of new faculty in the Higher School of Economics or someone else? Kashin did not tell that. Biophys 23:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
According to Albats's blog entry on February 28, 2007, someone has published an article signed by her name. It appears Alex Goldfarb's identity has been faked in a similar way. I want VF and others to be aware of such dishonest moves so that the biography article remains concise. ilgiz 07:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Ilgiz, you introduction in the article of material taken from blog is of questional quality. This material fails to meet the criteria of notability. Vlad fedorov 05:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Read http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/31/060731fa_fact?printable=true Vlad fedorov 05:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Vlad claimed that I deleted his comments. Wrong. Everyone can check the log and see that it was him who deleted my comments, not vice versa. (cur) (last) 05:56, 16 March 2007 Vlad fedorov (Talk | contribs) (rv - restoring Biophys deletion of my answers.) Biophys 16:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the folks at the Ted kennedy talk page have decided not to include this information, calling it tabloid journalism. If no one here can link this info to more respectable sources than the ones quoted there, I will remove this information, since it is defamatory. WP:BLP is involved here, since anyone can find this page by googling on "Edward kennedy" KGB wikipedia. -- Pan Gerwazy 12:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Biophys elaboratively posts texts about Albats radio talk shows on his lovely KGB subject. Please, either you list all recent topics of her Radio show, or you don't mention it at all. You must abide WP:WEIGHT policy. Do not use this article for your propaganda against Russia. Besides, KGB radio talk show doesn't meet standarts of notability. You have to explain why you publish so much about this particular talk show and why you trying to cover the information that Alabts' father was a GRU spy. Vlad fedorov 07:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the Edward Kennedy info on the basis of the RFC at [7]. I had a look at the rest of the chapter, and find some of the language poor and confusing. For instance: in English, there is a big difference between the phrases "s Jewish question", "Jewish question" (without article) and "the Jewish question". I would not be surprised if it was the more specific use "THE jewish question" that was meant here. For some reason her writing that book also gets mentioned twice.-- Pan Gerwazy 14:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
So, Vlad simply delets a lot of well sourced text. This is clear violation of Wikipedia policies. Biophys 04:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Ilgiz claims that I have referenced democratic parties to Vzglyad and Russian Orthodox TV which is amusing since democratic parties are not linked to Russian Orthodox TV at all. Ilgiz doesn't even bother himself with reading the sources!!! Business newspaper Vzglyad is describing its views in article http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/11/29/58857.html Maksim Grigorev. "Return of evil dead 2". November 29, 2006, Business Newspaper Vzglyad.(On Russian) -- in that article views and statements of democraticly oriented persons were published. I consider Vzglyad to be democratic newspaper. Vlad fedorov 03:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. I have made compromise version and have corrected significantly disputed section on the Nationalist March. But, please do not eliminated supported and referenced text concerning Albats case. If you want dispute this in mediation, let us proceed, I give my consent.
Your claims about defamation, POV and undue weight are easily eliminated by providing the opinions of others. Please contribute other POV's if you have one. But do not censure the article which is based on reliable sources. Vlad fedorov 08:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to draw attention that that Ilgiz consistently reinserts the following text into the article:
"Journalist John Barron[9], retired KGB Major General Oleg Kalugin [1] and the highest-ranking known Soviet bloc defector, Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa [2] shared these points of view."
There are no any sources that say exactly that phrase. Ilgix and Biophys, please, either cire reliable source in support of your Original research, or delete. Vlad fedorov
The same concerns the following sentence also inserted by you.
KGB defector Vasili Mitrokhin and dissident priest Gleb Yakunin who had access to KGB archives reported the same.[13][8]
Vlad fedorov 08:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Ilgiz reverts and Biophys inserts the following:
"whereas "the Soviet Union had one KGB officer for every 428 citizens." [2]"
I would like to note that this article is dedicated to one person - Yevgenia Albats, and not to Ion Mihai Pacepa. Furthemore, this article is not concernd with KGB, FSB and other stuff. Please don't put irrelevant text here. Make section in FSB article dedicated to the allegations of Pacepa.
I understand that Ilgiz and Biophys want to add to credibility of Alabts research, but please cite source saying directly that her research is credible and don't make this original research yourselves. Vlad fedorov 08:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
[8]This is no longer a ministry, a service. It’s the power, the authority.
I would like to beg Ilgiz and Biophys to stop their censuring and deletion of the information about Alabts father service in state security services. This information is very highly related to the credibility of Alabts research on KGB, FSB. I understand your desire to push your POV, but please push your POV by citing reliable sources like me and not by sterilizing the article from the information that you personally don't like. Vlad fedorov 08:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
ilgiz 05:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Gazeta.Ru reports that soon Yevgeniya Albats will head NewTimes newspaper (now she is the head of the department of politics in that newspaper). [10] ellol 14:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why we are removing information about her family. Everything is referenced and reasonably neutral. No negative information of the family members is provided. Information about parents and spouse[s] of the subject is expected in biographical articles. Yaroslav Golovanov is pretty notable person by himself anyway. Alex Bakharev ( talk) 03:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
respect privacy: "The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons."
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It doesn't seem to be a mass media, but a personal site created for study of India culture. Whether third-party unconfirmed undirect sources presnet NPOV position? The article definitely needs POV corrections. Vlad fedorov 05:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is also written in her book and book by Mitrokhin. Read these books. Biophys 05:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I read the fiction. It's just a fiction. Vlad fedorov 05:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I provided an additional internet reference, which is consistent with the book, simply for reader's convenience. Remember, this is not biography of Gandhi. So, LP rules apply only with respect to Albats. All sources satisfy Wikipedia criteria. Biophys 05:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Vlad, could you please provide here any citations (in Russian) from the interview in Echo of Moscow where Albats "publicly censored and in a brusque and rude way critisized journalist Anna Arutunian"? [2] If you can not, this should be modified. Biophys Is it this?
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Вы ни дня не занимались репортерской журналистикой, ни дня не занимались журналистскими расследованиями - я прочитала все, что вы написали – все. Во всех – не так много, к сожалению, на это нужно было меньше часа времени. Кстати, вы написали одну заметку этим летом в газете «Ве Нейшн» - есть такая известная левая газета в США - вы бы посмотрели, там главный редактор, Катрина Ван ден Хиден написала статью об Анне Политковской совсем недавно. Так вот я хотела вас спросить – убитого журналиста вы отхлестали по щекам. Пожалуй, никто себе не позволил так, ссылаясь на вторичные источники, написать после смерти Ани. Скажите, все-таки, что вами двигало?
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Я не могу сказать, что я отхлестала по щекам, я совершенно не намерена была этого делать, и мне не показалось, что материал вышел таким уж критичным, что можно назвать…
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Вы написали, что Аня не занималась журналистикой, вы написали, что ее задача была обвинять, а не искать правду – это цитата, я могу вам показать вашу статью, вот она, вся здесь, это прямой перевод. Вы видите, что это ваша статья, и это прямой перевод. И я хорошо читаю по английски – легко, свободно. Вы написали, что она не искала правду – цитирую вас – она не пыталась найти правду, она пыталась только обвинять официальных лиц.
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Нет, не только.
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Что вами двигало, когда вы писали?
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Нет, я не хотела сказать, что она не искала правду.
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Вы сказали именно это. Скажите, вам стыдно сейчас?
А.АРУТЮНЯН: Нет, мне не стыдно.
Ю.РОСТ: Жень, прости, пожалуйста. Я думаю, что тут все ясно, думаю, что силы неравны. И самое главное, обида…
Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Видишь, Аня защитить себя не может.
In her blog, Arutunyan said: "I had decided to reflect a pro-government position because a critical one had already gotten coverage in the Western media." Biophys 00:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, we could write an article entitled "Arutunyan scandal" or "Defamation of Politkoskaya after her death", but this topic is not notable enough for Wikipedia. Biophys 05:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It's a Wikipedia and not an original research playground. Moreover, we don't know if cited by you excerpts from the aired program are full (non-censored) or incomplete (censored). Most people believe they are censored. Could you site reliable source which confirms that your excerpts are not censured or cut? Vlad fedorov 05:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
You wrote: "Yevgenia Albats, who was relatively unknown by the general public journalist". It is exactly the same what Putin said with regard to Politkovskaya death. Biophys 06:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Biophys I have entered you ISBN number of Albats book in Google catalog and haven't found it. Please see the following link http://www.google.com/custom?q=site:worldcatlibraries.org+isbn+0374527385&cx=010897078278572180631:dhkk_ymtfpc&cof=GFNT%3A%23000000%3BGALT%3A%23008000%3BLH%3A0%3BCX%3Awww%252Egoogle%252Ecom%3BVLC%3A%23663399%3BDIV%3A%23FFFFFF%3BFORID%3A1%3BT%3A%23000000%3BALC%3A%230000CC%3BLC%3A%230000CC%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fgp%2Fsearch%3Fie%3DUTF8%26tag%3Dchuvashiaportal%26index%3Dbooks%26linkCode%3Dur2%26camp%3D1789%26creative%3D9325%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Echr%2Eru%2Fa%2Egif%3BGIMP%3A%23000000%3BLP%3A1%3BBGC%3A%23FFFFFF%3BAH%3Aleft&sa=Search&hl=en&client=pub-0147199382062428
The answer of Google catalog:
Your search - site:worldcatlibraries.org ISBN 0374527385 - did not match any documents.
Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords.
That means, basically, that you have forged your source. Either you should supply existing source or you give link to amazon.com, google.com, yahoo.com book catalogs. I know this trick with citing unexisting books as reliable sources in Wikipedia. You have 24 hours before I delete all your edits sourced to the unidentified book. Vlad fedorov 06:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
ISBN corrected. There are several editions. Biophys 06:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The answer:
Your search - site:worldcatlibraries.org ISBN 0374527385 - did not match any documents.
Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords.
Maybe you should try another ISBN? There are many combinations indeed!!! Vlad fedorov 06:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Who the hell is Mr. Kashin and why is he quoted as a reliable source? Colchicum 12:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Besides, I have found no sources that would support that Yelena Kalashnikova has ever existed. It looks like an alias of somebody (maybe Kashin himself). She is hardly a reliable source. Like Alyona Lybchenko (tm). Colchicum 15:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not a reaction of Albats. It's a scandal in which she was involved. Very good biography for typical radio DJ. Vlad fedorov 04:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia rules say two things with regard to BLP policies.
1. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. 2. Neutral sources must be used. Any "exceptional" and especially potentially defamatory claims must be supported by multiple reliable source. All of that especially applies to libelous "claims" made with regard to a living person. One can not simply say "alleged" and then include a poorly sourced libelous accusation of LP described in the biography.
There are the following statements in this article that do not satisfy such criteria:
(a) Allegations of crude and extremely uncivil behavior: "Arutunian claimed that Yevgenia Albats had approached Arutunian after the show and had demanded her "to leave the profession", threatening that she had reported Arutunian's article to her boss in the US, The Nation's chief editor, and promised to "look after all [Arutunian's] publications from now on".[11][10][3]"
This statement (a) is a claim of one person who has no good scientific or journalist credentials and who is personally involved as a side in the controversy (of course we do not know if she actually fabricated the claim - but that is exactly the problem with unreliable sources).
(b) Unsubstantiated accusations of fraud: "According to Kashin, Albats obtained her Higher School of Economics professorship due to appartchik talent of rector Yaroslav Kuzminov and not for her real education contributions". That was said about Harvard graduate and author of several books!
This statement (b) is an "exceptional claim" which is not substantiated by anything at all and claimed in only one source.
(c) False claims that Albats supports fascism and nationalism. Vlad inserted the following text: "This article written by Yevgenia Albats was met with fierce criticism by the Jewish community[13][14] and democratic parties[15][16][17][18] for the support of fascism and nationalism". This is simply not true. Her article was about freedom of assembly; and the cited sources ([13] to [18]) do not blame her personally for the support of fascism and nationalism. Biophys 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
So, all of that should be removed immediately.
Please do not break this message to parts. Biophys 15:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia rules say two things with regard to BLP policies.
1. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous.
2. Neutral sources must be used.
Any "exceptional" and especially potentially defamatory claims must be supported by multiple reliable source. All of that especially applies to libelous "claims" made with regard to a living person. One can not simply say "alleged" and then include a poorly sourced libelous accusation of LP described in the biography.
There are the following statements in this article that do not satisfy such criteria:
(a) Allegations of crude and extremely uncivil behavior: "Arutunian claimed that Yevgenia Albats had approached Arutunian after the show and had demanded her "to leave the profession", threatening that she had reported Arutunian's article to her boss in the US, The Nation's chief editor, and promised to "look after all [Arutunian's] publications from now on".[11][10][3]".
(b) Unsubstantiated accusations of fraud: "According to Kashin, Albats obtained her Higher School of Economics professorship due to appartchik talent of rector Yaroslav Kuzminov and not for her real education contributions"
Statement (a) is a claim of one person who has no good scientific or journalist credentials and who is personally involved as a side in the controversy (of course we do not know if she actually fabricated the claim - but that is exactly the problem with unreliable sources). Statement (b) is "exceptional claim" which is not substantiated by anything and supported by only one source. So, all of that should be removed immediately.
We also should keep some balance. She organized a lot of different talk shows (every week). So we can only tell about a couple of most important or representative of them, and write just a paragraph about each. Biophys 00:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Please do not break this message to parts. Biophys 15:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(c) False claims that Albats supports fascism and nationalism. Vlad inserted the following text: "This article written by Yevgenia Albats was met with fierce criticism by the Jewish community[13][14] and democractic parties[15][16][17][18] for the support of fascism and nationalism". This is simply not true. Her article was about freedom of assembly; and the cited sources do not blame her personally for the support of fascism and nationalism. Biophys 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
However, even the yellow press do not make such outrageous claims as those inserted by Vlad in this Wikipedia article. The worst passage I found in these "sources" is the following: "Евгения Альбац – одинокая проповедница «двойных стандартов» по принципу «лишь бы против власти». Вполне сознательно занималась обеспечением поддержки ультра-националистов со стороны либералов, путем публикаций о нарушении их прав на свободу собраний. Так, в своей публикации на страницах ЕЖ.Ру Альбац одна из первых вбросила тезис о необходимости разрешить радикалам проведение Марша 4 ноября." It does NOT say she supports fascism and nationalism (unless one wants to use citation out of context). It only says she is "against Russian government" and "therefore" supports the right of nationalists for a demonstration. Biophys 17:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
False Flags by Biophys
(a) http://www.agentura.ru/dossier/russia/people/albaz/ Agentura.ru Dossier Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(b) http://polithexogen.ru/info/38854.html Boorishness as a World View by Yelena Kalashnikova (in Russian) http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/10/26/54497.html Full Albats by Oleg Kashin, business newspaper Vzgliad, October 26, 2006 (in Russian) Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(c) There is no fraud, but cronism. The word 'fraud' was introduced by user Ilgiz. Should we report him, Biophys? http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/10/26/54497.html Full Albats by Oleg Kashin, business newspaper Vzgliad, October 26, 2006 (in Russian) Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Everything is supported. Please, do not write here false and empty accusations and do not violate good faith rules. Vlad fedorov 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The underlying problem, in my opinion, is the personal dislike of me and revenge of user Biophys against me for the following:
Vlad, what are you doing in this and other articles is harassment and personal attack on me and all my articles and edits. I understand: you have good intentions. You want to protect the Putn's administration and FSB from any critical information. The problem is: you are provoking me to create new and new articles which I was not going to create. You possibly noticed that I have created article Moscow Serbsky Institute because we argued about Boris Stomakhin, and this article about Albats because you harassed me with article about Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation. If you do not leave me and my articles and edits alone, I might create the following new articles:
1. Criticism of Russian government. That could include such interesting sub-topics as Nuclear proliferation by Russian Federation; Neo-soviet colonialism with regard to former Soviet republics, Penetration of Western markets by FSB, Restoration of dictatorship in Russia, and so on.
2. FSB operations in the Internet. That would include SORM, FSB hackers, and Prosecution of Russian bloggers - see FSB brigades in the Internet [3] but it would also include the "fallic" Rakhmankov case.
3. Gang from Lubyanka - Litvinenko book
4. Blowing up Russia: Terror from within - Litvinenko book
Do you want that? Biophys 14:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
1956 as a birth year is almost certainly incorrect. It is never cited anywhere besides Russian Wikipedia and its mirrors, while 15.09.1958 is in many sources.
I think the information about the family she was born to is relevant. The onliner Mark Albats was a GRU spy on the other hand misrepresnts the source. IMHO it is wrong to represent military intelligence during the Great Patriotic War as something shameful. I have slavishly translated Vlad's source although I am not sure that I understand what Mark did for the GRU.
I have expanded the biography section a little including the contraversial case of restoring the employment by a court decision. I was trying to be factual (neither EA wrote a crappy article but get away due to the frivolius litigation, nor heroic EA defended the jurnalist's integrity against the goverment lackeys...
I think the story with Arutyunyan desrves more than just two sentences. There was a lot of noise in the blogosphere and significant old-media attnetion. On the other hand to write the story in the NPOV style we need:
It looks like a topic of a new Controversy over Arutyunyan article, but I am to lazy to write it Alex Bakharev 15:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/11/29/58857.html Максим Григорьев: Возвращение живых мертвецов – 2
Впрочем, «Яблоко» не одиноко в своей fake-метаморфозе – обсудим еще одну серию «Возвращения живых мертвецов». Поведение известной «воинствующей» журналистки Е. Альбац идеально удовлетворяет fake-принципу.
А)В передаче радио «Свобода» от 23.11.05 на вопрос ведущего: «А по каким признакам вы считали марш 4 ноября… фашистским?» – она отвечает: «Собственно, ключевым участником этого марша была организация, которая против нелегальной иммиграции… На этом шествии 4 ноября большая группа людей поднимала правую руку в фашистском приветствии. Более того, один из организаторов, господин Белов… предложил собравшимся … поднять правую руку, вскинуть правую руку». Разве из этого не следует, что журналистка считает ДПНИ фашистской организацией?
Б)В передаче «Эха Москвы» в ноябре 2005 года на вопрос: «Почему не пригласили в эфир этих фашистов?» – журналистка отвечает: «Мы не пригласили фашистов, потому что на «Эхе Москвы» пропаганда фашизма запрещена».
В) Однако в передаче на «Эхе Москвы» от 5.11.2006 участвует лидер ДПНИ, персонально приглашенный борцом с фашизмом Е. Альбац. Этот же человек ранее публично назван ею фашистом. Совсем недавно Е. Альбац была подвергнута критике в журналистском сообществе за некорректное поведение в эфире с молодой журналисткой А. Арутюнян. По сравнению с ней лидер ДПНИ получает более чем радушный прием.
Уважаемая Евгения Марковна! Вы имеете право на любую точку зрения. Только определитесь. Согласно законам логики одновременно нельзя: А) считать ДПНИ фашистской организацией; Б) считать, что «Эхо Москвы» не ведет пропаганду фашизма, в частности, не приглашает ДПНИ; В) предоставлять ДПНИ трибуну на «Эхе Москвы». Впрочем, у fake-структур своя fake-логика, делающая соответствие обычной логике необязательным. Vlad fedorov 08:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I corrected the transliteration of the name of Albats' father [4], but Vlad fedorov reverted my edits with the following summary: "rv - deletions of information which Ilgiz and Colchicum personally dislike. Deletion of sourced material is a violation of Wikipedia policies and vandalism." [5] What the hell is going on? Colchicum 13:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I made some minor changes. But the remaining version is a clear violation of WP:BLP rules that require NPOV (I provided an explanation above). Biophys 23:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Can anyone explain what does it mean: "according to Kashin, Albats obtained her Higher School of Economics professorship due to apparatchik talent of rector Yaroslav Kuzminov and not for her real education contributions.[21]"? Was Yaroslav Kuzminov a person responsible for appointment of new faculty in the Higher School of Economics or someone else? Kashin did not tell that. Biophys 23:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
According to Albats's blog entry on February 28, 2007, someone has published an article signed by her name. It appears Alex Goldfarb's identity has been faked in a similar way. I want VF and others to be aware of such dishonest moves so that the biography article remains concise. ilgiz 07:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Ilgiz, you introduction in the article of material taken from blog is of questional quality. This material fails to meet the criteria of notability. Vlad fedorov 05:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Read http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/31/060731fa_fact?printable=true Vlad fedorov 05:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Vlad claimed that I deleted his comments. Wrong. Everyone can check the log and see that it was him who deleted my comments, not vice versa. (cur) (last) 05:56, 16 March 2007 Vlad fedorov (Talk | contribs) (rv - restoring Biophys deletion of my answers.) Biophys 16:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the folks at the Ted kennedy talk page have decided not to include this information, calling it tabloid journalism. If no one here can link this info to more respectable sources than the ones quoted there, I will remove this information, since it is defamatory. WP:BLP is involved here, since anyone can find this page by googling on "Edward kennedy" KGB wikipedia. -- Pan Gerwazy 12:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Biophys elaboratively posts texts about Albats radio talk shows on his lovely KGB subject. Please, either you list all recent topics of her Radio show, or you don't mention it at all. You must abide WP:WEIGHT policy. Do not use this article for your propaganda against Russia. Besides, KGB radio talk show doesn't meet standarts of notability. You have to explain why you publish so much about this particular talk show and why you trying to cover the information that Alabts' father was a GRU spy. Vlad fedorov 07:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the Edward Kennedy info on the basis of the RFC at [7]. I had a look at the rest of the chapter, and find some of the language poor and confusing. For instance: in English, there is a big difference between the phrases "s Jewish question", "Jewish question" (without article) and "the Jewish question". I would not be surprised if it was the more specific use "THE jewish question" that was meant here. For some reason her writing that book also gets mentioned twice.-- Pan Gerwazy 14:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
So, Vlad simply delets a lot of well sourced text. This is clear violation of Wikipedia policies. Biophys 04:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Ilgiz claims that I have referenced democratic parties to Vzglyad and Russian Orthodox TV which is amusing since democratic parties are not linked to Russian Orthodox TV at all. Ilgiz doesn't even bother himself with reading the sources!!! Business newspaper Vzglyad is describing its views in article http://www.vz.ru/columns/2006/11/29/58857.html Maksim Grigorev. "Return of evil dead 2". November 29, 2006, Business Newspaper Vzglyad.(On Russian) -- in that article views and statements of democraticly oriented persons were published. I consider Vzglyad to be democratic newspaper. Vlad fedorov 03:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. I have made compromise version and have corrected significantly disputed section on the Nationalist March. But, please do not eliminated supported and referenced text concerning Albats case. If you want dispute this in mediation, let us proceed, I give my consent.
Your claims about defamation, POV and undue weight are easily eliminated by providing the opinions of others. Please contribute other POV's if you have one. But do not censure the article which is based on reliable sources. Vlad fedorov 08:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to draw attention that that Ilgiz consistently reinserts the following text into the article:
"Journalist John Barron[9], retired KGB Major General Oleg Kalugin [1] and the highest-ranking known Soviet bloc defector, Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa [2] shared these points of view."
There are no any sources that say exactly that phrase. Ilgix and Biophys, please, either cire reliable source in support of your Original research, or delete. Vlad fedorov
The same concerns the following sentence also inserted by you.
KGB defector Vasili Mitrokhin and dissident priest Gleb Yakunin who had access to KGB archives reported the same.[13][8]
Vlad fedorov 08:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Ilgiz reverts and Biophys inserts the following:
"whereas "the Soviet Union had one KGB officer for every 428 citizens." [2]"
I would like to note that this article is dedicated to one person - Yevgenia Albats, and not to Ion Mihai Pacepa. Furthemore, this article is not concernd with KGB, FSB and other stuff. Please don't put irrelevant text here. Make section in FSB article dedicated to the allegations of Pacepa.
I understand that Ilgiz and Biophys want to add to credibility of Alabts research, but please cite source saying directly that her research is credible and don't make this original research yourselves. Vlad fedorov 08:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
[8]This is no longer a ministry, a service. It’s the power, the authority.
I would like to beg Ilgiz and Biophys to stop their censuring and deletion of the information about Alabts father service in state security services. This information is very highly related to the credibility of Alabts research on KGB, FSB. I understand your desire to push your POV, but please push your POV by citing reliable sources like me and not by sterilizing the article from the information that you personally don't like. Vlad fedorov 08:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
ilgiz 05:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Gazeta.Ru reports that soon Yevgeniya Albats will head NewTimes newspaper (now she is the head of the department of politics in that newspaper). [10] ellol 14:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why we are removing information about her family. Everything is referenced and reasonably neutral. No negative information of the family members is provided. Information about parents and spouse[s] of the subject is expected in biographical articles. Yaroslav Golovanov is pretty notable person by himself anyway. Alex Bakharev ( talk) 03:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
respect privacy: "The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons."
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