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See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Yeshu for a July 2004 deletion debate over this page.
Copied from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Yeshu
I agree that the Talmudic story is encyclopedic, but it belongs at the existing Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud (kind of like we already had "Mentions of George Washington in Mexican Literature"). Josh Cherry 13:02, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Andrewa 18:30, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
--- As I said in the VfD subpage, I think this argument is relevant to the VfD debate, unlike most of the rest of what's in the subpage. I've replied at length here rather than there because VfD is getting unworkably long as a result of these essays. IMO we need to keep VfD votes and comments short and snappy, out of consideration not just for the other users who need to load the whole page, but also the sysop who must eventually untangle the votes and act on the decision.
To the argument Josh has put above. If someone did create such an article on Jorge Washington, the exact treatment would depend on the information in the article. But assuming that significant use of this name in Mexico was well documented (which seems to be the scenario he proposes if most scholars had a view on the matter), the possibilities would be keep or merge and redirect. There would be no justification for delete.
The only decision that VfD needs to make is whether to delete. The matter of merge and redirect doesn't need sysop action. But I'm not criticising Josh for listing the article on VfD, just BTW. But I do think that both sides are doing their cause damage by raising irrelevant points in the subsequent discussion. Andrewa 18:55, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone else here see problems with this but me? Zestauferov 16:49, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yeshu (usually translated Jesus), or Yeishu (sometimes called Yeshu Ha-Notzri, Jesus the Nasaraean) is a name mentioned in the Mishna. Most scholars believe that the Mishna is referring to Jesus of Nazareth, the central figure of Christianity, despite an anachronism in the Mishnaic legend and some other inconsistencies with Christian tradition. Other people claim that despite the many similarities, which go beyond the names, the person mentioned in the Mishna is different from the more famous Jesus. It is possible that different references to "Yeshu" in the Mishna refer to different people.
According to the Mishna, Yeshu was a Jewish sectarian of the second century BCE (approximately 110-70 BCE). "Yeshu" is used as an acronymic curse meaning "May his name be erased", and Ha-Notzri interpreted as The Watcher. He was originally the student of Yehoshua Ben Perachiah but was sent away for judging a woman by her physical appearance. After several returns for forgiveness he mistook Perachiah's signal to wait a moment as a signal of final rejection, and so he started his own school of thought. This apparently happened during their period of refuge in Egypt during the Pharisee persecutions 88-76BCE ordered by Jannaeus Alexander. He gathered five disciples Matai (who some have identified as Jesus's Grandfather), Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah. Because of his connections with the Hasmonean house a town crier was sent to call for witensses in his favour for forty days before his execution. No one came fourth and in the end he was stoned and Hung on the Eve of Passover and ended up in Hell a decade before the start of the Roman occupation.
He is criticised in the Talmud for "burning his food publicly". In the uncensored Rosh Hashanah 17a text of Rashi certain apostate minim (literally "gnostics" the same meaning as Mandaeans) heretics are described as "the students of Yeshu HaNotzri who have twisted the words of the Torah". In some versions of Gittin 57a and Sanhedrin 43a as well as one version of Sanhedrin 107b (Sotah 47a?) the Yeshu mentioned is further identified with the title Ha-Notzri.
Sanhedrin 103a Berakoth 17b
Mentioned in
Tradition has long connected Yeshu Ha-Notzri with the second century CE
Ben Stada and the early first century CE
Ben Pandera, both of whom have also been connected with
Jesus of Nazareth. These figures are merged in the Sepher
Toledoth Yeshu (Yeshu's Lineage Book), a twelfth-century folkloric work that is not part of the Talmud or Mishnah. Although many scholars accept this identification, it is controversial. R. Jehiel Heilprin (Seder Ha-Dorot, p.151) has argued from Talmudic evidence that these figures were not the same person.
Just to be sure, I've done some additional research. I stand by my edits, so I have restored them. I believe I have come reasonably close to NPOV: I stated what seems to be the mainstream view, but mentioned the difficulties it has and the existence of an alternative view.
I don't understand why you (Zestauferov) consider the belief that the Talmud refers to Jesus to be Christian-centric. Certainly it cannot be said to be pro-Christian, given the negative portrait painted of this figure. In any case, this appears to be the predominant view, among Jews and gentiles alike. Thus Wikipedia should discuss it, even if it is not your view.
You asked for references. I have already cited the Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (Intervarsity Press, 1992; Ed. by Green, McKnight, and Marshall). This has a whole section on Jesus in Rabbinic writings. It states (pg. 366) that "there is good reason to identify this 'Jesus' with Jesus of Nazareth" (the 'Jesus' in question is the one who was an associate of ben Parahiah). I also mentioned this article from the American Jewish Committee, which takes it as fact that the Talmud refers to Jesus. To these I will add The Jewish Encyclopedia, which identifies Yeshu with Jesus. The Jewish Encyclopedia includes the following:
The references to Yannai, Salome Alexandra, and Joshua b. Perahyah indicate that according to the Jewish legends the advent of Jesus took place just one century before the actual historical date; and some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Nahmanides and Salman Zebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge.
I don't know where the idea that "Yeshu" should be translated as "Esau" came from (the version to which you reverted made this seem like fact, ignoring the standard translation as "Jesus"). "Yeshu" begins with a Hebrew yod, whereas "Esau" begins with an ayin. Jewish and Christian sources alike translate "Yeshu" as "Jesus" (see the above citations for examples). Even those who question whether the Mishnaic Yeshu was the Jesus seem to accept that he was a Jesus, i.e., that the names are the same.
I will add that the version to which you reverted had the following to say about a mainstream view:
Many amateur or overenthusiastic historians in an attempt to find historical evidence besides the christian bible concerning the existence of Jesus have sought to merge all these characters into one person.
And you accuse me of being POV?
Josh Cherry 00:12, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Category:Jewish Christian topics
The facts of the character as described in the Talmud should be mentioned *first* -- the different interpretations on whether this character has a connection or even identification with the Jesus of the gospels should come second *after* the facts.
And your sentence "many similarities, which go beyond the names, " is hopelessly POV. You are trying to predispose the readers about the seeming similarities of the character's story before you list Yeshu's story itself.
Yes, I see problemss with Josh's version and I will revert it now (once). If this is going on, this article will be in dire need of Peer review, not that I have much hope, that it will get some.
I'm not an expert in this field, but by applying simple logic and checking some sources on the Web, Josh is simply taliking about another real or fictional person and this is already handled at Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud, as Josh himself stated in the VfD discussion.
Pjacobi 09:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Have you actually read the Jewish Encyclopedia article that I cited above? It is quite clearly talking about the same person (or persons) discussed in the Wikipedia article. Here's another quote from there:
The Talmud also says that Jesus was in Egypt in early manhood. R. Joshua b. Perahyah is said to have fled with his pupil Jesus to Alexandria in order to escape the persecutions of the Jewish king Yannai (103-76 B.C.); on their return Jesus made a remark on the not faultless beauty of their hostess, whereupon R. Joshua excommunicated him; and when Jesus approached him again and was not received he set up a brick for his god, and led all Israel into apostasy.
This is obviously the same person, isn't it?
And what about the "translation" of "Yeshu" as "Esau"? Do you have a source to support your reversion to this apparent inaccuracy? Josh Cherry 15:16, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As I've said I'm not a expert in this domain and I agree that that the article is best served by getting input from from contributors, hopefully attracted by the NPOV listing. And to repeat another point, only from the structure of the debate, there is the interpretation possible, that believers in religion X are trying to set the interpretation of scriptures of religion Y. Pjacobi 15:43, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well I really wish you had read my citations for comprehension before reverting my edit and declaring that "simple logic" told you that I was confusing different characters. You don't have to be an expert to see that the sources I cited think that this Yeshu was the famous Jesus. It wouldn't have taken much effort; if you don't want to put in such minimal effort, don't revert other people's work.
As far as religious stuff, we should generally be wary of people with a religious agenda. This particular case is clearly not a matter of Christians trying to dictate the interpretation of Jewish writings. I gave two Jewish sources that clearly think that the Talmud is discussing Jesus. It shouldn't matter, but for the record, I am not a Christian. My only interest is in reflecting what scholars think. If anyone has a religious agenda here, it's not me. As it stands, the article misrepresents mainstream Jewish thought (along with other mainstream thought). Josh Cherry 16:19, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I already apologized for my full revert, but your edit from 15:11, 24 Jul 2004 also was a nearly full re-write and POV. But we shouldn't focus on these past struggle, as I hope all can agree, that the article is already improving. Pjacobi 16:36, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure how many times I am going to have to write this. Which Yeshu are we talking about? All of them as if they were 1? that would make his life span 4 centuries!!! Can we give the primary sources some prominence and use a little common sense here please over the opinions of writers who have made a conscious effort to cover up facts which demolish the views they attempt to build? Jesus probably is mentioned in the Mishna (Josh's continual reference to the Yeshu and Talmud highlights his ignorance in the matter. Which Yeshu? Which Talmud? And why presenty a Jewish connection as some kind of qualification? Another one ימח שמו וזכרו better known as Hitler also had one so should we adopt his views? The only thing which would impress me would be if he could proove he was an observant orthodox Jew.) as one of the Ben Panderas, but that is all. There is nothing of certainty so lets just present what is certain from the sources and leave the speculations up to those who want to do something with the source material. Zestauferov 08:55, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
My ignorance, eh? Well I keep saying, and backing it up with references, that the standard view is that the story of this Yeshu, the one described in this article, who was associated with Perachia, is a reference to Jesus of Nazareth. I am the only one who has posted any references, and that is what they, and all the books I've looked at, say. These sources are well aware of the chronological issues, as a quote I gave above demonstrates. I suppose that they accept that Talmudic legends about Jesus might contain anachronisms. You will have to take it up with them.
I'm really puzzled as to where you're coming from. Either you are unaware that most scholars hold this view (some reading should fix this, perhaps starting with this Jewish Encyclopedia article that I posted earlier), or you are well aware of this but you disagree with the commonly held view (sorry, Wikipedia has to report that the majority view is the majority view, even if Zestauferov disagrees with that view).
I only mentioned religion when others made it an issue: Pjacobi (above) suggested that this was a case of non-Jews forcing their interpretation on Jewish writings (which I can't understand, given the references I gave), and you, Zestauferov, publicly accused me of anti-semitism here (had I expected an apology, I would have been sorely disappointed; and did you just compare me to Hitler?). Josh Cherry 15:32, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Josh from almost the very first post I made on wiki you started stirring things up between quite noble unsers (like Llywrch) against me to very regretable degrees. It is bad enough you keep building up straw man arguments against me, if I have directly accused you of something then please quote it and lets see if it is unfair in a conflict between users debate (which does not belong here). If so I will appologise, if not then why do you insinuate and twist together testimony which doesn't exist? Are you seeing a cap which fits and thinking it must be for you perhaps? Then that is an issue you have to deal with for yourself and here is not the place to get into that. Lets have no more Ad Hominem here now.
You make two points. 1) You read a lot of work by "christian" (pseudo)scholars. My response is, to each his own I suppose. 2) You seem to think I have no references. My response is, what do you think the original sources are? And besides this I have directed you to wonderful sources on the Ben Pandera page. If there is anything I have missed it is probably because I have not read carerfully because of time restrictions. Anyway I think this discussion page & article is progressing in exactly the right way with all points being covered from all the appropriate angles and not being a person with a particularly strong opinion on the matter (except that NPOV is achieved) I don't see that I can add much to the discussion at this point. Keep up the good work folks. Zestauferov 05:17, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Its not like I have been hiding these, but since you want them all listed in one place. Any mainstream time line of Jewish figures just prior to and under the Roman occupation along with Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a, Sanhedrin 43a, Gittin 57a, Ibn Daud, Nahmonides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p.306) Jacob Tam (Tosafists, shabbat 104B uncensored) R. Jehiel Heilprin (seder Ha Dorot p.151) Aboda Zara 16b-17a, Jerusalem Talmud Avodah Zarah 2. 40d, Shabbath 14 4, Shabbath 14 14d (Ecc. 10:5), Tosefta Hullin 2:23, Sanhedrin 67a, Shabbath 104b, Kalah 1:16 & Kallah 18, Mishnah Yevamot 4:18 add to that the works of Maccoby & Falk, and that should suffice for a good Jewish perspective. As for Steven Bayme and the Jewish Encyclopaedia, general paraphrasing and quoting intricacies are very different. No careful Jewish scholar places Ben Pandera in the early 1st C. BCE. As for your third point why do you build up a scenario which no one but you believes? This is the second time now I ask you to bring any personal grudge to mediation rather than dirty the discussion pages. Lets have no more mud here please. Why not gather the "many" you indicate while you're at it and do something together if you're into that sort of thing. All the best. Zestauferov 16:19, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The article is about people called Yeshu in the Mishnah so that is a very good response. If you want to write a section on how modern scholars interpret these passages then be sure to quote the official perspective summed up in Ency. Jud., 10.15-16. Nothing conclusive can be said beyond the following quotation from EJ (loc. cit., emphasis added and spelling changed to Yeshu):
In other words, Talmud at most refers to the christian concoction of Yeshu but not to any historical reality; and even that is highly speculative and blurred with other figures of other times also named Yeshu. And there were a lot of Jews named Yehoshua including the Wicked Priest of the Qumran Scrolls (Hellenized to "Jason"). Please try not to create a biased POV in that section if you do make one. All serious scholars accept that (as cited by the scholars mentioned in the paragraph above) the passages in question refer to at least three and possibly more people and only sloppy researchers who have not bothered to check the chronology think otherwise (which is enough reason to discount their opinions) it is as simple as that. Zestauferov 00:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Is this article to be re-written? Merged with Quotes about Jesus in the Talmud? The material in the two articles re-organized? Jayjg 21:28, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article is a mess. I believe it is based on a mistaken assumption. The assumption behind this article is that there is a single person in the Talmud named "Yeshu", who is definately not Jesus. The article goes on from there to discuss just who this Yeshu is. The problem is that most Talmud scholars deny the very premise: In the Talmud there are many quotes from different people, with different points of view, about a person named "Yeshu"...and they do not necessarilly all refer to the same person. In fact, most Talmud scholars I know of state that the name "Yeshua" became a stand-in for many people considered to be false Jewish messiahs in early rabbinic Judaism, both real people and legendary. Jesus is certainly meanto be Yeshu in some chapters, yet is certainly not mean to be Yeshu in other chapters. Now, this still could be made into a decent article if this point istaken into account, and it is merged with the current article on Quatations about Jesus in the Talmud. Such a merge along with a clarification could go a long way towards fixing this up. RK 23:24, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
So, umm, where are we now? Jayjg 18:30, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Count up the opinions and you will see. Zestauferov 19:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The articles Yeshu, Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud, Pandera, Toledoth Yeshu, and Sources about Jesus#Mishna all contain overlapping and often contradictory information. I propose that one comprehensive, agreed upon text be created from the information in all these sources, giving all sides of the "debate" on whether or not the Yeshus of the Talmud are references to Jesus or not. This article would then be linked to from the various other articles. Comments? Jayjg 16:55, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It would be virtually impossible to give such a broad entry one absolutely neutral entry title which would not upset somewone. I say keep them separate and well defined but also cross-linked. Zestauferov 17:26, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Jayjg, it seems I've been bothered by the same phenomenon some time ago. At that time User:IZAK and I agreed that these articles contained a lot of superfluous stuff about possibly unhistorical people, and that their content would be better served if everything was under Yeshu. At that time, no action was taken by us, but I fully agree that Wikipedia does not need duplicative information - especially Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud needs to go. PS If you're really fed up, you can always get some community opinion by listing them on VfD, but I would keep this as a last resort. JFW | T@lk 18:48, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
PS That would not be the first time this article goes through VfD. Please make sure you phrase your deletion request eloquently.
Jfdwolff writes "At that time, no action was taken by us, but I fully agree that Wikipedia does not need duplicative information - especially
Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud needs to go. "
I agree with RK here, but disagree with Grutter about starting with a statement about the christian icon. That should be a small subsection at the end of an article objectively presenting the info. Zestauferov 16:39, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree that having this and Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud as separate articles makes no sense, and maybe others should be merged as well. My inclination would be to add what's not redundant here to Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud, since, as has been pointed out by others, the only reason that there's significant interest in Yeshu is the alleged Jesus connection. Certainly what's at Quotations should not be eliminated. And it makes little sense to conceal the alleged Jesus connection from the reader until the end, since that's the most important thing about Yeshu. Also, if the name of the merged article is to be something like "Yeshu", I would hope it could be "Yeshu (Talmud)" or "Yeshu in Jewish legend" or something. For one thing, I think that "Yeshu" might be the word used in modern Hebrew for Jesus, so an Israeli reader might expect to find a very different article under this title. Josh Cherry 22:31, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Josh wrote: "since that's the most important thing about Yeshu" but actually the most notorious Yeshu in the Mishnah is the one who was contemporary with Salome Alexandra, and the most important thing about him is that he is the only record in the Mishnah of a character who may have been the wicked teacher of the Qumran scrolls. Zestauferov 05:41, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
P.S. mentioning an alledged connection with Jesus is all well and good but since trhere are several Yeshus, it should be phrased something like
Zestauferov 05:44, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In the Talmud (a record of rabbinic discussions on Jewish law, Jewish ethics, customs, legends and stories compiled in the first few centuries CE), the name Yeshu repeatedly occurs. This name is usually translated as Jesus, and therefore has lead to debates about the relationship between the Yeshu of the Talmud and the Jesus of Christian worship.
There are a number of competing theories on this subject:
Good intro Grutter. It should not be overlooked that Yeshu as a name also indicates dishonour as an abreviation of Yeshua. It should also be noted that the first theory requires us to mess-up the entire otherwise acceptable chronology of the Mishnah's early figures. Zestauferov 16:31, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To be precise, it's not the fact that "Yeshu" is usually translated into English as "Jesus" that makes people suspect a connection. It's the fact that "Yeshu" is close to what is believed to be the original Aramaic/Hebrew name of the person we call Jesus (the translation of "Yeshu" as "Jesus" is just another consequence of this fact). And it's not only this fact that makes people think there's a connection. There's the fact that he/they is/are sometimes referred to as, essentially, "Jesus the Nazarene", and various similarities in the stories (e.g., execution on the eve of Passover). Josh Cherry 22:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed the piece by user:Jesus Saves! because it, too, was incorrect. For anyone who can read Hebrew/Talmudic Aramaic, the actual quote is found here: [1]. It distinctly says ישו הנוצרי (Jesus Christ). Danny 14:13, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm delighted by your freedom to delete others' content, Danny. Does everybody have this power? If I think something is incorrect, say, in Creationism, can I just delete it? Dbabbitt 14:20, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
If you encounter an article on a controversial subject that you would like to edit, first read the comments on the talk page and view the Page history to get a sense of how the article came into being and what its current status is. Then, if you want to change or delete anything substantial in the text, you should either:
You did just that. Dbabbitt
I am deleting this, because it's definitely incorrect. Some "uncensored editions" of Talmud do mention Jesus in connection with Balaam (Gittin 57a). However, far from being identified with Balaam, Jesus is contrasted with Balaam there: whereas Balaam, in hell, continues to advise the cursing of Israel, Jesus ("sinners of Israel" in most "censored" editions), in hell, gives advice regarded as sound: "Seek their welfare, seek not their harm." That a favorable comparison is intended is made clear by the sentence: "Observe the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the other nations who worship idols." See article "Balaam" in Encyclopedia Judaica.
Danny, I agree with your original deletion of my new material. As written, it mistakenly implied that the specific above quote was not about the Christian Jesus. The quote, of course, clearly was about the Christian Jesus. I only meant to say something about the many other "Jesus" quotes. If this article continues and does not get deleted, it will eventually discuss a number of these quotes. As this happens, I want people to know that some historians believe that many of these quotes (some believe most of them) are not really about Jesus. The rabbis just took any and all examples (real or legendary) and stuck the name "Jesus" in front of them. The person "Jesus" in the Talmud has become like the legendary trouble trouble makers "Reuven" and "Simon" in the responsa literature, who seem to be the only two people ever involved in legal disputes. I think they are probably all related to the same ancestor, the famous Ploni ben Ploni. RK 14:41, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)
Another Talmudic scholar on the loose ... "Many" and "most" are rhetorical devices. Identify those scholars with reference to specific quotes, and we have room for discussion. Aggadata (Jewish legends) uses certain terminologies and identifies names for specific reasons. To compare them to Reuven and Shimon, the equivalent of x and y in English (xs ox gored ys ox = Reuven's ox gored Shimon's ox) is hardly the same. Danny 14:52, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Also, I have come across a number of others who share his view. RK 15:09, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)
I want to question the last paragraph, which I'll copy here for convenience:
First, how can the "many quotes" and "many people" be correct when there are actually rather few passages involved? Second, as Danny points out at the top of this Talk page, the text actually says "Yeshu ha-Notzeri" (Jesus the Nazarene) which is the expression used for Jesus Christ in countless Jewish texts ever since Talmudic times and still today. (But does the Talmud say "the Nazarene" each time, or just some of the time?) Third, there is no reason that Chazal was required to accept the New Testament account of Jesus, even the basic chronology, so the fact that they wrote things contradicting the NT account is not a reason in itself to dismiss the identification. Fourth, how did the great Talmudic commentators interpret the Talmudic Yeshu? -- Zero 12:51, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi. I didn't write that paragraph so I can't vouch for everything in it. On the other hand, I think that there is a misunderstanding in the basic assumption of this page. The Talmud is one corpus of writing, but there are many others that are contemporary to this text, such as the Midrash. I distinctly remember other stories, but I cannot find sources for them (Jesus was a student of Rabban Gamaliel, he used the Tetragrammaton to fly, etc.). All of these probably appear in other texts. Like I originally wrote, there is little about Jesus in the Talmud per se. Frankly, he wasn't that important to the authors. As for the Talmudic commentators, it is hard to tell, since the texts mentioned in the article (and any others like them) were all censored, so they either did not see them, or their commentaries were lost. Danny 00:04, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I would really like to see pointers to all the Talmud pages that are supposed to be involved. I have a list that I have compiled. I want to at least see if they match. 4.249.198.197 23:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
This name is clearly shown in Talmud to refer to a student of Jehudah ibn Perachia, a contemporary of Shimon ben Shetach, from 80 BCE. Please make this clear in the discussion. Patrij ( talk) 00:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The Kollel Iyun ha Daf responsa for this page in the Babylonian Talmud shows that the Yeshu on this page is Yeshu ha-Notsri. Patrij ( talk) 00:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Mishnah was not necessarily written down as a whole but it is referenced: in Haggai 2:13 (Kelimn 1:1, 520 BCE); in reference to King John Hyrcanus (Maaser Sheni 5:15); in the letter about the founding of Qumran in the same times (Yadayim 4:7); in the rulings of Shimon ben Shetach from 80 BCE; and those of R.s Hillel and Shammai up to about 10CE. Amos 2:7 may refer to Kidushin 2:1. The article leaves the incorrect impression that Mishnah did not exist until it was written down. Patrij ( talk) 00:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Jesus' mother was Mary, or their names in Hebrew:
“she was the descendant of princes and rulers.”
the year references on this page need to include CE (I think) looks funny and confusing otherwise
RK removed this information from the Sources about Jesus page, I just thought I'd park it here for now in case there's anything of value that can be retrieved from it. Jayjg 06:57, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Jesus is not mentioned in the Mishnah. At best there is an allusive reference to "ploni" (= rabbinic parlance for "so and so") in M. Yev. 4:13. Aside from that slender possibility, there is no mention of Jesus at all anywhere in the Mishnah. There are references from the Tosefta and from the Talmuds. However, it seems extremely unlikely that the Rabbinic literature can be appealed to for any independent historical data on Jesus of Nazareth. There is nothing to suggest that any reference to Jesus, from anywhere in the entire vast rabbinic corpus, is anything more than a reaction to contemporary Christian claims.
I've redirected your Jeshu article here. Wikipedia does not need four articles on the same topic, it already has three. Here is the text you wrote. Please incorporate any NPOV text, with references, into this article. Thanks. Jayjg 22:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Isn't this version similiar to the old version of
Yeshu before VfD and rewrites:
[2] --
Pjacobi 22:55, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is pretty clear that the people who have written the various articles relating to Yeshu are not qualified to do so. I have studied the topic of Yeshu and ben-Stada in the Talmud for nearly 15 years and am undertaking to rewrite the articles. I have started a page titled Jeshu that uses the Soncino spelling and with time will merge in relevant material from "Yeshu" and "Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud". The very name "Quotations about Jesus" implies that it is a fact that the references to Yeshu are about Jesus when modern scholarship clearly rejects such a claim. The very name "Yeshu" is an acronym for the Hebrew expression "may his name and memory be obliterated" NOT the Hebrew form of the name Jesus! - 15 Oct 2004
User:Kuratowski's Ghost 15 Oct 2004
I deleted the stuff because it contains factual errors such as claims of Yeshu in the Mishna (he isn't mentioned there) and the claim that Yeshu was a common name - it simply isn't true, it occurs nowhere other than in the Talmud and Tosefta and no example is known of anyone having Yeshu as a real name. There is also absolutely nothing about Mary and a carpentar in the Talmud passages - that comes from Celsus not Jewish sources.
Important things to remember about keeping NPOV
I will add a section on Ben Stada and Ben Pandera in good time.
To illustrate "The resemblance of the name Yeshu to Yeshua which some assume to be the original Hebrew or Aramaic for Jesus, is in fact superficial, the latter name contains a gutteral consonant in the original Hebrew which is absent from Yeshu" and perhaps at other places, can somebody please insert the names in Hebrew and in academic transliteration? -- Pjacobi 16:52, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please folks, can anybody be so kind to add the Hebrew and the academic transliteration to illuminate to clueless? --
Pjacobi 09:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I redirected Ben Stada to Yeshu instead of Pandera. Similarly with Plony Ben Stada. My advice is that Plony Ben Stada should be removed completely it doesn't even deserve a redirect. Plony is not a name it is Hebrew for "a certain person" and the combination "plony be stada" is not found in the Talmud its baloney :P
I will be adding more about ben-Pandera to the Yeshu article especially regarding Celsus and Christian writers talking about a Panthera and the relationship this has to the Toledot Yeshu, once this is done we can redirect Pandera as well, its the dodgiest page I have ever seen on Wikipedia :p
"Yeshu" is the common term for Jesus in medieval and modern Hebrew; this point should be incorporated into the article. Jayjg 18:39, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi.. Another point, Yeshu is often understood as the name for Jesus in Hebrew speaking circles today outside/notwithstanding the acronym stuff. And it is wrong to say that this is only a late or Talmudic usage, there is ossuary evidence without the ayin, and some folks, like the late historian David Flusser, consider it a gutteral Galilean Aramaic usage.
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/names An Introduction to the Names Yehoshua/Joshua, Yeshua, Jesus and Yeshu by Kai Kjær-Hansen
One problem is that Christians (Messianics especially) became defensive because of the acronym situation, and attempted to eliminate the Yeshu form from consideration, scholarship on all sides tended to be through glasses. The formation of the acronym is by no means proof that Yeshu was not an actual form of the name of Jesus, we have to watch out for variants on the 'post hoc ergo propter' hoc fallacy.
Shalom, Steven Avery schmuel@nyc.rr.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic Praxeus 07:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
In the un-censored version of Maimonides Hilchos Melachim 11:4 he refers to Jesus; doesn't he use "Yeshu HaNotzri" there? Jayjg 18:38, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.187 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, yes, that's one thing it means. But why does that rule out other possible derivations, including "off-shoot" (from netser), or even "from Nazareth"? Jayjg 18:43, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.187 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost 09:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The introduction said However, scholars now generally argue that there is no connection between Yeshu and Jesus. This is apparently not true. I base this on sources I've cited above, plus a trip I just made to my local library. In fact the majority argue that references to Yeshu are references to Jesus. There are, to be sure, a minority who say otherwise, but this is not what scholars generally argue.
!!!!
Also, the status of Yeshu as an acronym is not inconsistent with its being connected to Yeshua. The generally held view is that it is a play on words, derived from Yeshua by dropping the final letter to keep it from implying "salvation" and to make it into an insulting acronym. Josh Cherry 01:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.187 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Pandera (also Pantera, Pantiri, Pantheras and Pantira), meaning " panther" in Aramaic was the name of a Jewish family around the end of the last century BC and first century CE suggested as centered in a certain Bethlehem. (There was at least one Bethlehem in Galilee besides the one in Judea).
The independent sources for information about the family are Epiphanius, the church historian (in identifying "the sacred family" of early Christian writings); Tertullian in 198 CE; Origen, in writing about the 178 CE comments of anti-Christian polemic philosopher Celsus; passages from the Jewish Mishnah; and less seriously the satirical Toledoth Yeshu.
4.249.198.225 23:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The names of people mentioned from these sources as belonging to this family are Jacob ben Matthan; his sons Joseph and Clopas; their sons Yeshu, James, Joseph (or Joses), Simon, and Jude. Finally and most controversially a certain "Plony" Ben Stada is supposed to be illegitimately descended from the same family because of his mother Miriam Mgadla (Miryai the Hairdresser) called Stath-Da as "she was unfaithful" to her husband Paphos Ben Jehuda.
Christian scholars have often suggested that the application of the name Pantheras to the family in question grew out of poking fun at the use of the term "huios parthenou" amongst Helenized Israelites meaning "son of a virgin by repeating it as "huios pantherou" meaning "son of a panther". Otherwise the surname may be of Moorish origin indicating origin from a proselyte.
In the Talmud very little is known about an early first century CE rabbi called Yeshu Ben Pandera whose disciple Jacob of Kefar Soma/Sama or Sakanin, though described as a "Min" (i.e. heretic), later enjoyed a certain amount of admiration from Rabbi Eleazar ben Hyrcanus (c.70-100CE) the Shammaite and later Rabbi Eleazar (Eliezer) ben Dama (the nephew of Rabbi Yishmael/Ishmael Ben Elisha c.90-135CE).
4.249.198.225 23:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
R. Eleazar (Eliezer) is mentioned in a few traditions a couple concerning Yeshu Ben Pantere describing one of two incidents. One of Yeshu Ben Pandira's disciples was called Jacob of Kefar Sakkanin (Tosefta Hullin 2.24; cf. Zara 16b-17a where in manuscript M Sekanya and Ha-Notzri are written) whose comments amused R. Eleazar. Tosefta Hullin II, 22,23, discusses the case where R. Eleazar ben Dama was bitten by a serpent and wanted to be healed in the name of Yeshu ben Pandira (See also Avodah Zarah 40d, 41a) but died before he could prove to R. Ishmael that it was permitted.
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
From the passages about Yeshu Ben Pandera in the Mishnah it can only be determined that his school were doctors, opposed the period's establishment of Roman conspirators, and that they were not popular with the House of Shammai. Hyam Maccoby (SCM Press, 2003) has presented good evidence that this particular Pandera was a Pharisee. Orthodox Rabbi Harvey Falk (NY 1985) further classified him as a Hillelite who sided with the Shammai Pharisees only on the matter of divorce. For centuries many Jews have thought him to be the Historical Jesus behind the figure Christians have been worshipping as Messiah because of the certain similarities between their biographies. For example Epiphanius said Jesus's mother's husband Joseph was the brother of Cleophas, the son of James, surnamed Panther (the literal meaning of Pandera). Interestingly the teachings attributed to Jesus identify his origin from the House of Hillel which was opposed by the House of Shammai.
Ben Pandera mentioned explicitly in
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
It ends at 2:7 4.249.198.225 23:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It is thought that those fragments of the Toldoth Yeshu which are not obviously adapted from the Mishnah concerning the early first century BC Yeshu Ha Notzri or the early second century CE Plony Ben Stada may be referring to this Yeshu Ben Pandera. Ibn Daud, Nahmonides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p.306) Jacob Tam (Tosafists, shabbat 104B uncensored) R. Jehiel Heilprin (seder Ha Dorot p.151) have all highlighted the fact that these three men are different people from different times.
For NPOV purposes some of this [3] information should be incorporated into the page:
"The story of Mary's seduction by Pandera was in circulation around 150 C.E., when it was cited by Celasus [Origen (ca. AD 185-254), Contra Celsum]; and the Toldot Yeshu was quoted by Tertullian in 198 C.E. Almost certainly its author did not intend his work to be taken seriously, but was rather riduculing Matthew by writing a parody. Nothing else could explain his making Jesus huios pantherou (son of a panther), a transparent pun on huios parthenou (son of a virgin)." William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus
Biblical scholar Morton Smith disagrees that Pandera was based on a pun.
The word parthenos "depends on a Greek translation of Isaiah 7.14; it cannot be derived from the Hebrew with which the rabbis were more familiar. Jesus is never referred to as 'the son of the virgin' in the Christian material preserved from the first century of the Church (30-130), nor in the second -century apologists. To suppose the name Pantera appeared as a caricature of a title not yet in use is less plausible than to suppose it [was] handed down by polemic tradition." Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 61
The name Pandera, Pantera or Panthera "is an unusual one, and was thought to be an invention until [a] first century tombstone came to light in Bingerbrück, Germany. The inscription reads: 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera of Sidon, aged 62, a soldier of 40 years' service, of the 1st cohort of archers, lies here'." Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence
"...Panthera was a common name in the first two centuries of the Christian era, notably as a surname of Roman soldiers....There is no proof that Jesus was referred to by the title bo buios tes parthenous ['son of the virgin'] this early on. It is possible, though, that the accidental similarity of the Infancy Narratives' parthenos to 'Panthera' ...caused 'Panthera' to be picked as the name of the adulterer, once the theme of an adulterous soldier arose in the tradition." John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.
"Eusebius, about 300, tried to explain 'their' [the Jews] Panthera story as a misunderstanding of scripture, and Epiphanius, a century later, actually gave Panther a legitimate place in the Holy Family - he became the Savior's 'paternal' grandfather! Later Christian writers found other places for him in the same genealogy." Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 80 -- Jayjg 17:22, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
After the recent merge, there is a lot of information on the page. However, it needs to be tidied up, some points need to be bulleted.
Maybe the "is/not Jesus" section needs to be in the form of
Issue
Where Issue is Name, Censorship, etc.
Thoughts, issues? CheeseDreams 12:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As well there are significant phonetic difficulties in finding parthenos in the epithet son of Pandera, and this ignores the understandable Hebrew meaning of betrayer.
This seems off-point to me. I don't think anyone argues that Pandera is a corruption of parthenos. They see it as a deliberate wordplay. So the part about phonetic difficulties seems not to apply, and a Hebrew meaning of betrayer fits well with the hypothesis. Josh Cherry 23:58, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
BTW the current wording of the article suggests that the explanation of Pandera as coming from Pandaros is highly conjectural, my understanding is that the use of Pandaros and derivative forms to mean a betrayer is well known and is the reason Shakespeare chose it for one of his characters, Pandare. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:56, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The article says betrayer is an easily understandable hebrew meaning. Well it was not easy for me to make any connection at all.
"Hebrew from the Middle Ages" really? Where can I learn more about this? It sounds like it comes from translating some renaisance literature into Hebrew which I understand was not in use at the time.
I have changed the article to state as a fact that Pandaros' name was used to mean betrayer and borrowed by Hebrew - the usage in Midrash proves this, it is not simply conjecture. Kuratowski's Ghost 16:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost 22:33, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please go through the article and clear up paragraphs like this one?
"Some see the Greek for virgin parthenos in the word "Pandera" either as a corrupted pronunciation or an intential play on words. Others see the names of Jesus' disciples amongst the five disciples of Yeshu; principally Matai and Todah as Matthew and Thaddaeus, though some have gone further and see the names John and Andrew in Buni and Netzer."
It talks about two different Yeshu's as if they were one. The article is full of things like this so it makes it very difficult to know which passages from the talmud (and indeed which talmuds) are being refered to, and what the chronologies are etc..I know that Ben Pandera & Ha-Notzri have only been equated due to one passage spceicifally manuscript M version of the Babylonian Talmud, Aboda Zara 16b-17a but historical factors indicate this is a later gloss and anyway it is not oldest nor only surviving version of the story.
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Could we avoid trading off logic and appraisals of historical source documentation against opinions of various schools? If a passage talks about all the Yeshu's as one then it should be clearly attributed to the school of opinion which takes that stance as is good journalistic practice. Phrases like "some see" are not good enough.
Either way.
Erroneous beliefs even be they of the majority cannot override the facts as they stand. There are four centuries between the birth of one Yeshu and the death of another in question (later in this article mingled together as one) they cannot be the same it is pure insanity. Will someone please address this issue, as there is an editor who has looking through the history pages at least three times now (if my eyes are correct) attempted to override the statements in the books as they are. In the mishnah there are no two ways about it there must be at least two Yeshus.There is absolutely nothing wrong with going into detail as to why some people believe these references to be to one person, but this belief must be shown to be pulling the historical veracity of the Mishnah into question. Anything else is mis-information. 81.132.103.100 11:34, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
An analysis of the reference in Chullin was recently added. I have removed it for the following reasons:
Okay, I did a little more editing to introduce the section that I hope makes this point clearer. The article already stated that Yeshu is always used in relation to a story about the threat of heresy, I just did some editing to make this point stand out more clearly. I think the point itself is pretty clear: "Yeshu" marks a genre of stories, these stories are about the threat of heresy and possibly ambivalent relations between rabbis and early Christians. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I dunno -- it seems to me that Yeshu is the perfect place for a detailed exposition of the Yeshu narratives. I don't see any harm. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:46, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
According to Rubenstein and Boyarin, they are Yeshu narratives. These are two legitimate scholars. Rubenstein's book is part of "the Classics of Western Spirituality" series which is very well-respected. The introduction is by Shaye Cohen, an extremely well-respected historian of the late Second Temple period. Rubenstein discusses the tosefta in Chapter 27: Jesus and his Disciples. Now, Jayjg you have every right to disagree with Rubenstein and Boyarin. And if you know of scholars who take another view (I assume you do) you have every right to make sure they are represented in the article. But the fact that you disagree with Rubenstein and Boyarin is not sufficient to exclude their views from this article. You suggest that this material can be in an article on early Jewish-Christian relations and perhaps it could go there. But in that article, people could well make the following objections: "we do not know for sure if these stories are historically accurate; they really say more about Rabbinic values than about actual relations between actual Christians and Jews." Of two things, however, we are certain: these stories mention Yeshu, and they are in the Talmud. So let's talk about them in the article on the Talmudic figure "Yeshu." Slrubenstein | Talk 19:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
According to Rubenstein (no connection, honest! ;-) both stories mention Yeshu. And it seems to me that "the meaning of the term" is the way the Rabbis used it to frame their relationship with early Christianity. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I see the "Ha-Notsri" has found its way into the Talmud references. Please correct this, as pointed out its only in the Munich manuscript in one place and magically appears in biased English translations. Also move discussion identifying with Jesus to the appropriate section. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost, NPOV polity requires that articles present different views, even if editors disagree with or reject entirely one of the views. The view of Rubenstein and Boyarin is a legitimate view; it is simply irrelevant that you disagree with it. When I added their views to the article, I was careful to explain that this is their view, and not everyone's view. Do not delete it. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I was pulling my punches before, but we are in fact dealing with more than POV we are dealing with factual accuracy and honesty.
Slrubensteins additions to the article uses the Herford translation. This translation contains erroroneous and extraneous material:
Kuratowski's Ghost 20:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the above debate illustrates an important point: checking original sources. A lot of things written about Yeshu in popular literature is based on statements that are only found in translations of the Talmud or unsupported reconstructions of censored material.
As the article notes the Talmud was censored by the Church and the standard texts of the Talmud in fact contain none of the Yeshu references. Subsequently people have tried to restore the censored material and have often done this without supporting evidence from actual pre-censorsed manuscripts. Herford is very guilty of this kind of thing. He has Jesus the Nazarene all over the place in his translation. Not only is this a POV translation, it is unsupported by manuscripts - Notzri occurs only in the Munich text in one place. Now people realize that the translation Nazarene is POV but then instead have Ha-Notzri based on Herford in places where he has added Nazarene not realzing that its Herfords own addition. Similarly Yeshu ben Pandera is not attested in any pre-censored Talmud manuscript but Herford and others add it into their reconstruction of the censored Avodah Zarah based on its occurrence in the related Tosefta passage.
4.249.3.5 ( talk) 13:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The Kfar Samma vs Sichnin case is another example of unnessary debates based on something that only exists in translations not source texts. For example in Zindler's book he gloats over how the rabbis confused Sichnin and Samma. (Zindler is rabidly anti-all Judaeo-Christian religion but he is isn't the sharpest pencil in the box, he even thinks that Sechania is a different place to Sichnin and accuses the rabbis of confusing three places.)
Kuratowski's Ghost 09:14, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
KG, you have an axe to grind with Herford, Rubenstein, and Boyarin. Okay. But do not take it out here. You are an editor and an editor does not put his own views into articles. For you to make decisions about what the correct version of the text is, or what it means is to violate both our Wikipedia:No original research policy and our Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. I have not deleted any claim you made. Do not delete the content I put in. Jayjg, if you feel that the way I wrote it doesn't clearly enough ascribe these views to Rubenstein and Boyarin, please make what you think are appropriate changes, I trust you (if you don't mind!) Slrubenstein | Talk 16:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
To quote the Wikipedia:No original research policy:
"However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
Kuratowski's Ghost 22:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
If you want a primary reference section that is neutral, provide no summaries, simply provide a list of the citations. Any summary is POV because it reflects a particular manuscript. Perhaps we could have a section comparing the different manuscripts. Moreover, it makes perfect sense to have the discussion of what "Yeshu" refers to before going into specific cases. Certainly, no one is going to make up theri own minds on what "Yeshu" refers to by reading the summaries; moreover, there is the question on NPOV (each summary should mention which ms. the summary comes from. The "primary sources'As to spellings of names, I followed the spellings of the sources I used. I understand the argument for consistency and agree that in non-quoted material the spelling should be the same. How is this for a compromise? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
How is that possible though, KG, without it being a part of and introduced within a uniform narrative ? Are ♪R&B♪ not legitimate scholars? Are there no scholars who refute their position? How are those (and possible other) positions viewed within the critical scholarship in general? You say, and I revise: [a] neutral article which stated what was said in the original sources
, but is it not true that there is an ongoing debate within the scholarship as to what was said? Thus, the (so-called?) original, true reading —which, again, I see as inherently interpertive— undoubtedly has scholars which support it. Why not present their views alongside those (R&B) who oppose them instead of arguing that these shcolars which SlR added be excluded from the article? Finally, I return again to the matter of consensus within the critical scholarship wrt these views as the overarching framework for comparing the two (and/or any other) reading of/view/position/interpertation/etc. The point is, KG, is that there is a(n original research) limit as to how much editors here can engage in and debate the various philological points of contention in isolation from and without relying on the pertinent scholarship.
El_C
09:39, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
without interpretation
Well, I think that KG makes the nature of his violation of the No original research policy crystal clear when he states "in my perception the scholarship on the subject is very poor on all sides. In all the works I've read I've spotted obvious errors and blatant ignoring of other points of view." If KG believes this to be the case, he needs to publish it in a peer-reviewed journal before this view can be expressed in the article. Spotting errors is original research. You can't put what you think to be the correct version in. It violates our policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:44, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
The (non-hidden) agenda:
Is everyone ok with this? Kuratowski's Ghost 08:54, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I've basically done the above, very painful. The one thing I did still completely cut was the really irrelevant Br'er Rabbit comment. Kuratowski's Ghost 17:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I will try to figure out a better way to word it, Slrubenstein | Talk 19:25, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Tidy the Rubenstein and Boyarin interpretations so it is clear what is fact and what is their interpretation.
I'm sure you mean what is literal interpertation (translation), and what is the comparative one (philological) ;).
El_C
07:43, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I did some more checking and made a few corrections. Although Notzri does not appear in the Tosefta, it appears in the Babylonian Talmud in all the manuscripts, Munich, Paris, and JTS. According to the Zuckermandel critical edition of the Babylonian Talmud, which is highly regarded, the Tosefta Hullin uses the name Yeshua, not Yeshu. Zuckermandel's edition also identifies Yaakov as being from Samma. The Deuteronomy 23:19 quoted by Yaakov is in all Talmud manuscripts. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:57, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Is this based on your own research? I mean, this claim about what is "normative?" If so, this counts as original research and cannot be included in the article. If on the other hand this is a claim that has been made by an acknowledged authority (e.g. in a peer-reviewed journal or in a scholarly book) then of course you can follow our NPOV policy and state "According to X, ...."
Scholarly sources seem to agree that the its one Jacob that is being referred to even Herford who uses the Samma translation. On the contrary, I provided a scholarly source that identifies this Jacob as coming from Samma. If you know of scholars who, in peer-reviewed articles or in a scholarly book, who claim otherwise, of course you can put that in "A and Y however claim that this is a mistake, based on the evidence of ..." However, you cannot be the arbiter of truth in this article, that is a clear violation of our policies. If different scholars have different views, we must represent all of them. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you did not see that I had already corrected that mistake. In my last edit I specified that the passage in question was from the Talmud, not the tosefta. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
I see also that the current article says that one account is in Chullin and the other in Avodah Zarah. Chullin in fact has both accounts about Jacob of Sichnin (Eleazar's snake bite and Rabbi Eliezer's arrest) following each other. Thats partly why the Samma translation is so odd, the Aramaic form sechania is translated Samma while in the quoting of Rabbi Eliezer's word where the Hebrew form sichnin is used, the translation is sometimes Sakhnia which is another vocalization of sechania. Avodah Zarah only has the second anecdote and adds in the quotes from Deuteronomy etc which are not in the Tosefta version.
The anomalous Yeshua instead of Yeshu is found in the 19th century restoration of censored text in the Vilna printing of the Tosefta of 1881. It also has the anomalous spelling of Pandera in the second Chullin account. The Vilna printing is known for numerous errors. These are corrected in the Lieberman edition which is viewed as authorative. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:02, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Any time I changed or added something to the article, I explicitly mentioned my source. You should learn to do the same. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Instead of petty bickering lets work together on sorting out remaining problems with the article:
No objection, except we need to be clear that the version of the second account in Avodah Zarah is different from the version in Chullin. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Although we can discuss what "seems" to be the case on this talk page, it violates our NPOV and NOR policies to put it in the article itself. However, we certainly can and should provide an account of any debate among scholars or differences between manuscripts. I object to an editor chosing which is the "correct" version. I have no objection to an editor adding "Manuscript x reads ..., manuscript y reads ..." and "Scholar a interprets the difference between anuscripts this way, but scholar b interprets the difference betwen manuscripts that way" Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Although wikipedia articles don't have owners some people are more motivated at some times to work on a particular article than at others, I was motivated back at the time of the merger, at the moment I'm more motivated to kvetch in the Talk page. Slrubenstein seems to be the most motivated to work on the article, so I say go for it, but check what people have to say on the talk.
Maybe we need one of those "List of" articles presenting all the Hebrew text color coding what is standard censored Talmud, what is censored material found in all pre-censorship manuscripts and what are the Munich and Florence comments unique to those manuscripts. El_C can type the Hebrew for us ;)
Kuratowski's Ghost 09:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
A good deal of this article's references are mostly if not all Jewish sources. Jews offering their opinion would propably not want to state what is really says since their religion and culture states that they should lie and confuse when dealing with attitude towards gentiles, because they are tribal. This is a fundamental problem considering the English version of the Talmud was translated by a Jew, and that most of the Talmud has not been translated. Why it might be a fallacy to suggest all Jews prefer to lie, it would be a good assumption on basis of what the Talmud states.
Hi there, Ghost. I was invited by Prof. Rubenstein to drop by and see what's going on. Before I get in too deep, let me just mention a couple of quick points:
When I have time, I'll catch up but 85 KB of talk is a lot of reading! Cheers. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 14:42, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
"In the comparatively short period of three years (1937-1939) he published the four-volume Tosefet Rishonim, a commentary on the entire Tosefta with textual corrections based on manuscripts, early printings, and quotations found in early authorities."
Kuratowski's Ghost 17:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I trust Rubenstein more than the "Jewish Virtual Library" -- I know Rubenstein has an MA in Talmud and a PhD. in religion, and I do not know the credentials of the authors of the JVL. No matter. The way to handle this is to write "According to Rubenstein, Leiberman's text does not include Hullin, although according to the JVL it does" That is the way we comply with our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that the early manuscripts of the Talmud before it was censored are the Munich of 1342, the Florence of 1176, the Hamburg of 1184 (Zindler), thats three, Student speaks of 4 independant manuscripts including the Munich so I was wrong when I said 5 earlier - its 4 with the Munich not in addition to the Munich, from a text by McKinsey available online at [4] I understand that the remaining early manuscript is the Karlsruhe although I don't have a date. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
SlR can you be more specific when you say the translation Samma comes from the Zuckermandel. Does it in fact have samech-mem-aleph in the text? The texts I have seen all have samech-kaf-nun-yud-aleph. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry, I have been pre-occupied; I will try to check again, Slrubenstein | Talk 22:32, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I've made some additions in particular the second chullin account paralleling the avodah zarah account which went missing. I will add some more info on where Noztri occurs and where it doesn't, not sure if what we've got currently is correct. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I notice that the Jewish Encyclopedia in the Ben Dama article refers to Jacob the min as "Jacob of Kefar Sama (Sakonya)", seems that they consider it to be just another name for the same place. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
"The Talmud may mention Jesus and Christianity in coded terms, such as min (???, sometimes translated "apostate" or "heretic"), though this term refers to various sectarian groups. In terms of labeling Christians as minim it is important to note the adage of Rav Nahman in the name of Rava bar Avuha in Tractate Chullin 13b: There are no minim among the gentiles, i.e., the appellation could only be applied to converts from Judaism." Min in modern hebrew means sex,species(same as english word :sex).Minim could mean species too(plural:many species).
This whole page is full of extraneous nonsense. He was the soul Onkelos conjured from hell, period. Look in Chesronos Hashas, oh I forgot Soncino doesn't publish that. These editors need to: 1.Learn to learn Gemara, wait a second they can't because no one who really knows Gemara would ever teach it to a Non-Jew just like the Kabbalah center doesn't really teach Kabbalah.
4.249.198.197 00:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Disregard the Gregorian calendar, it's worthless. After meeting these requirements, then start writing these entries.
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The name "Yeshu" is not on that page. I want to know the names of the rabbis who hold the above opinion. 4.249.198.136 ( talk) 19:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The story about roman army officer Panthera originate from the fact jews misunderstood the greek word parthenogenetis (= being born to a virgin) and used this to create a slander, since Talmud always describes Jesus as the worst kind of fake prophet.
The following appear to violate our NOR policy:
NOR concerns can be addressed simply by naming the critics who make these claims, and if possible providing citations. The section ends mentioning Herford. if all of these arguments are of Herford, I suggest he be named right at the top. If this arguments have been forwarded by a number of scholars they should all be given credit. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I guess this section caught my eye as being particularly argumentative. Other sections seem pretty descriptive of the rabbinic literature; I focussed more on the argumentative sections. And many of those sections actually do ascribe the scholarship. Certainly, any section with argument should be sourced. I won't argue with your main point. Whoever has claimed that Yeshu is Jesus for example should be sourced too, or course. Of course there are othe examples from the article For example, "It has been used as an acronym for the Hebrew expression yemach shemo vezichro..." we should provide some examples of who has used it this way, with citations. Also, "Some argue that this has always been its meaning" - do you know who? Can you add the sources and citations? Also, "Others point out that the word is similar to, and may be a wordplay on, Yeshua, believed by many to be the original Aramaic or Hebrew name of Jesus, the central figure of Christianity" - do you know who the others are? Can we add them and citations? And most obviously, just adding sources to this would resolve a lot of the problems (since this is a summary of much of what is to come: "There are currently at least three approaches to this question. Some argue that there is no relationship between Yeshu and the historical Jesus; some argue that Yeshu refers to the historical Jesus; some argue that Yeshu is a literary device used by Rabbis to comment on their relationship to and with early Christians" - we should have one, two or three names for each basic view and citations. I think I have made only one major contribution, which I sourced. Frankly, I think you know this literature better than I do so i think you are more likely to know the appropriate sources. Can you add the Zindler and Student as appropriate? My point remains the same, no matter what examples I provide: much here appears to be Original research and violates our NOR policy. Anyone who knows who holds these views and can provide the sources brings us into compliance. Who else has worked extensively on this article besides you? Are there others who may know the sources? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 14:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I will ask Jayjg too. look, I am not going to delete anything - I take everything in the article on good faith. The fact is, I think it is a very good article that more people should read. This lack of sources is I think the main flaw and I don't want to leave other people grounds to challenge the article. I am sure you are busy as I am ... just want to keep this issue on the radar. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
When reading about the origins of Jesus' name, why does it seem that no one ever mentions the Syriac-Aramaic version (found in the Peshitta, for example), which is yisho, spelled with four letters: yud, shin, vav, ayin, with vowel markings to indicate it is pronounced yisho, and not yeshu (or yeshua)? What is the etymology for the Syriac-Aramaic spelling and pronunciation? Is it a valid, early source, or not? Jimhoward72 12:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC). I will add another question - is there any etymological/historical relationship between the Hebrew Esav (Esau) and the Arabic Isa (Jesus)? The spelling is almost identical: עֵשָׂו/عيسى Actually the Arabic name 'Isa/عيسى literally means Against/Opposing/Facing/Anti-Yeshu and corresponds to the Hebrew letters עישו. In Arabic, the name Esau is spelled quite differently.
In my opinion, the Syriac form is based on the original Hebrew, and is a valid, early source. But a couple comments on the pronunciation. The vowel in the first syllable is indicated (at least in my copy of the Syriac NT) by a little mark that looks like an epsilon, and was originally pronounced like an epsilon. In the second syllable, the vowel mark derives from the Greek letters omicron and upsilon (the upsilon written like a y, upside down over the omicron!) and was originally pronounced like this combination in Greek, that is, as in "acoustics". The `ayin was pronounced as well, but either it did not have a "patach furtive" before it (the "a" sound that is inserted before final `ayin in Hebrew), or else they simply didn't feel a need to write such a "furtive" letter. So in other words, the name was pronounced quite similar to Yeshua`, perhaps with less of an "a" being heard before the `ayin. Now, almost 2000 years later, the pronunciation has changed.
As for the Arabic form, I don't know. I have noticed myself that it is basically the name Yeshua` spelled backwards, except that it has a ya instead of a waw. (Notice that it has two ya's, not a ya and a waw.)
EricK 12:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I have reworded the introduction to the "primary references" section, to make it more accessible (and also to improve language).
I move this passage over from the article:
The first paragraph is merely a rehash of what has already been stated above about the censoring of Talmud. The second paragraph is intersting information on Liebermann and his work but in how far is it really relevant to this article, given what the last sentence here says. Also, we have no such introduction in the section on the Babylonian Talmud.
Another open question would be, whether the current sequence Tosefta - Talmud is better than the reversed one.
Str1977 (smile back) 16:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the reasoning for putting Tosefta first, and providing the explanation of who and when it was edited, especially when it was edited so recently (long after the Talmud) is that the tosefta themselves are generally believed to have been composed before the Talmud and thus represent an early source. However, they existed in fragmentary form - thus the importance of Lieberman's achievement in producing a critical edition bringing the fragments together. For this reason, I believe that a revised version of the text you removed ought to be restored to the article. I think there is an ambiguity in the passage you removed: does the Lieberman edition lack only the critical commentary on Chullin, or both the critical commentary and tosefts on Chullin, and is there no rference to Yeshu in the Lieberman edition? I do not know the answer to this question but assume someone watching this article does. IF the Lieberman edition includes material relevant to Yeshu, I think that a revised version of this text - removing the redundancy and ambiguity - should be restored to the article. If the answer is no then I agree with your edit. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost's explanation of the relevance for the brief discussion of Lieberman satisfies me as a reasonable justification for putting it back in. However, I do think Str1977 is right about the redundancy and the ambiguity. I would think that KG could make minor edits to the passage that would eliminate these problems - am I right? If so, I propose that you leave ou the first paragrtaph (just a sentence), put the second one back in, fix up the ambiguity about Lieberman's coverage of Chullin and perhaps add the point about Zindler and Student - i.e. explain that some disagreements have to do not with the interpretation of the source material, but that some people use different (or more i.e. Lieberman as well) sources. This should satisfy Str1977 and make the whole thing clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
"Massey's identification of this character as the Jesus of the New Testament is, however, radically outside of the scholarly mainstream and enjoys no support from any New Testament scholar of any stature."
How very true. Egyptologists always seem to go seriously astray when they venture into textual criticism. Why not delete the entire reference? PiCo 06:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
"(e.g. Hanukkah is only mentioned in passing in the Talmud, because of the holiday's connection with the Hasmonean dynasty, whose legitimacy was challenged by the Pharisees). "
POV issue, It's just as likely that Hannukah is not mentioned because the Romans wouldn't have approved of a holiday asserting Jewish independance. I think this example should be removed or changed
Wolf2191
12:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
"Still, the names are not identical, as the Hebrew d (dalet) does not correspond to the Greek th (theta); comparison with other Greek words transliterated into Hebrew indicates that any original Greek would have had a delta as its third consonant, not theta as in "Pantheras"." R' Yaakov Kamenetzky in Emet L' Yaakov posits that dalet should really have a "TH" sound not "D" as is pronounced today. Wolf2191 12:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It should in fact say Mishna. The Talmud (Shabbos - 22b) has a long discussion starting "What is Hanukkah?" because it isn't discussed in the Mishna. Wolf2191 00:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
R' Yehuda Ha'Nassi the redactor of the Mishna lived sometime after the Bar Kochba revolt. So the explanation (I think Reuvein Margolies says it) works there as well. The explanation mentioned in the article is (most surprisingly) from the very RW Orthodox R' Moses Sofer. The point is that R' Yehuua Ha'Nossi who was from Davidic ancestry was upset about the Hashmonean usurpation of the Davidic right to the throne and therefore limited his discussion of their actions. As usual some say that (my ancestor) R' Sofer never said it (It's really more in line with Graetz's modus operandi) Wolf2191 16:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, Yosef Kappah in his critical edition of Maimonides commentary to Mishna speculates that Maimonides included in his principles of faith (and in his letter to Yemen), that the Messiah will descend from the Solomonic dynasty as a polemic against those Christains that claim he will descend from another son Nathan (see Genealogy of Jesus). Even stranger is the Zohar's claim that the Messiah will come from "Nathan's Wife" (though there does exist a (questionable) tradition that the house of Solomon was wiped out. Wolf2191 01:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
"Whereas the Pharisees were one sect among many in the Second Temple era," This is a POV statement. It would be good if we can make it clear that this is only the opinion of one scholar. In fact one can make a strong case that the Pharisess influenced most of the country, with the Essenes being a small irrelevant minority sect and the Sadducees consisting of the aristocratic priestly segment, however most of the country followed the Pharisees. Certainly one of MANY is a gross exaggeration Wolf2191 15:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations to those of you who have put together this interesting and informative entry. After I read it, I wondered what the Hebrew Wikipedia had to say about it, so I looked. I found that they have an entry he:ישו (Yeshu) which simply identifies Yeshu with Jesus. I have been trying, on the discussion page, to convince a couple people that this is not proper and that the title should be changed. (I suggested "Yeshu (Yeshua` minNatseret)".) That would allow room for an article similar to this one ( Yeshu) on the subject of the person (or persons) in Jewish literature called Yeshu. But I'm not having much success. Apparently they had a vote a couple years ago on whether to change the title to Yeshua`, and it was about 2 to 1 against changing it. But the arguments put forward did not reflect the contents of this entry. If any of you want to weigh in on the Hebrew talk page, you're welcome. EricK 12:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Can someone provide sources for the following claims:
We need verifiable sources for these claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Assertions need to be verifiable. If you know the sources, please add in references/citations please. Thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 21:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. As for the other assertions - maybe whoever put them in can find the sources; I never meant to imply that you alone are responsible for all the content in the article! Slrubenstein | Talk 08:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm slowly putting together a rewrite (with references) of the Interpretations of the name section that will emphasize that there is only disagreement over the identity and meaning of Yeshu in the Talmud and Tosefta, in later works it was consistently used for Jesus and is used for Jesus in modern Hebrew (starting with Klausner's writings). Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 18:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I've started making changes and adding references. Besides the need for references the article needs to make it clear that the dispute over the identification of Yeshu with Jesus concerns only the Talmud and Tosefta, not for example modern Hebrew usage where Yeshu Ha-Notzri is certainly used for Jesus without any doubt nor the usage in the Toledoth Yeshu where without a doubt certain aspects of the character are based on Jesus. Also there is a wider spectrum of interpretation than the article originally suggests, e.g Klausner takes it as a given that Yeshu means Jesus but disputes that the anecdotes where it occurs originally contained the term so to him Yeshu = Jesus but the individuals in the Talmud aren't Jesus they have merely been wrongly called by a term meaning Jesus. The view of several writers besides Massey mentioned by Gil Student that Yeshu is not simply Jesus but a contributer to a myth of Jesus needs to be mentioned, that view differs from Zindler and MacKinsey (who see both the Gospel Jesus and Talmud Yeshu as myth) as well as from a traditional simplistic equation of Yeshu with Jesus. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 00:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
None of these locations are marked as ever having been censored. Therefore I have removed these false references from the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.249.198.182 ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 17 June 2008
No they don't. In the first two cases they are marked as interpolations. Who interpolated them? You need to answer that. In the last case the name Yeshu is not on the page at all. 4.249.198.136 ( talk) 19:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I am remving a section of the article to this talk page; I will explain why in a sec.
Many, many months ago I added the "fact" tags because I saw no source for these claims; they are either false, or violate original research. Several months have passed and no one has found citations for them. I think the risk of having false information, or a passage that violates our policies, does too much damage to the credibility of the encyclopedia to justify keepoing this material in.
I did not simply delete it because it is my hope that some editor will find appropriate citations and at least parts of this section can be reincoprorated into the article. I ask the editors who work on this article to be patient and kep this section here on the talk page, undeleted and available for improvement, until and if such time occurs when we can move it or parts of it back into the article.
I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge that Kuratowski's Ghost and other editors have done terrific work lately in adding citations and that this article is much much better than it was a year or two ago. I appreciate and value that hard work. It is precisely because we all value adding citations that I have removed this from the article. And frankly, it is because i hope KG or someone else can find appropriate citations that i did not just delete it.
The article is stronger without these paragraphs, littered with citation tags, in it. Perhaps it would be even stronger if we could find citations for these points, so I ask other editors not to delete this but rather to renew their efoorts to add citations if they have any.
For what it is worth, I think the article without this passage remains very strong. I really think removing the passages with so many dubious claims makes the article much stronger. Slrubenstein | Talk 07:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi KG - sounds good. We agree to keep this section on the talk page and as you (or others) find appropriate sources we can move it back in (and perhaps into different sections? i am not arguing against the previous organization, just observing that with reliable sources we may also have more information and decide that the material works better in another section). I'm glad to have another oppotunity to thank you for the work you have been doing finding more sources for this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Calling Shibli Zaman a "conspiracy theorist" is an ad hominem attacked for which I could not find any references that meet Wikipedia's rules for such citations. Therefore, it has been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.46.207.189 ( talk) 20:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Wolf just deleted this: "Yeshu (ישו in Hebrew) is also an abbreviation for the Hebrew words ימחק שמו וזיכרון "Y'machk Sh'mo v'Zichron" (May his Name and Memory be Erased)." Now, I did not add it to the artile and hav eno personal investment, but it was in for long time so i assume many editors here supported it. i am not challenging Wolf's deletion, but I think his point is that it shoud no be returned to the article unless we specify who believes this (to comply with NPOV) and provide a verifiable, reliable source or sources (V and RS, as well as NOR). Slrubenstein | Talk 15:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
It first shows up in Czarist Russia - to support Pogroms (similarly Akum was made as an acronym for "Ovdei Christos U' Miriam") - I know of no evidence that the expression was used in Talmudic times. Of course, if there is a reputable source for it it can stay. Best! Wolf2191 ( talk) 16:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
OK! Wolf2191 ( talk) 19:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Still lots of work needed in the article, such as debate around "notzri" which needs to be consolidated in the section around the usage in Talmud and Tosefta. Then discussion of usage in later writings: the toldoth narratives which needs more discussion, usage in Rashi for Jesus etc, then usage in modern Hebrew as a standard translation of Jesus resulting from Klausner's writings and criticism of the modern usage. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 19:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Rashi's use of Toledot Yeshu is discussed in Sid Leiman's '83 JQR article - he cites a 71 cambridge critical edition of the Toledot Yeshu will check Proquest later. Wolf2191 ( talk) 20:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
and see also this - #Christians and Heretics in Rabbinic Literature of Late Antiquity# Richard Kalmin # The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 87, No. 2 (Apr., 1994), pp. 155-169
My computer isn't doing PDF's for the moment for some reason but I will see what can be added when its fixed. Wolf2191 ( talk) 20:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There needs to be some treatment of this person here. Though autobiographical details are scarce, he appeared to have lived in the second/first century BCE, and the Greek transliteration of his name appears to have come in the first century, by the work of his grandson. Its appears to have some relevance to the Jesus/Yeshua transcription issue, as the Hebrew texts are surviving from that era, and the Greek transcription came well before Jesus. - Ste vertigo 05:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
There is no text calling ben Sirach by the name "Yeshu" and so he is not relevant to this article. Extant Hebrew texts of Sirach call him Yeshua ben Sira, not Yeshu. These texts are possibly back translations into Hebrew of the Greek text and not the original Hebrew, but the view is that his original Hebrew name would have been either Yehoshua or Yeshua, no one believes he was called Yeshu. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 02:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I have completed as much as I can for now on the development of the usage of the term. I am busy trying to follow the development of usage section with sections on each of the Yeshu accounts giving more detail. There is much that can be added to the accounts other than the Yeshu ben Pandera account. Currently the latter has the most information but a lot of it is actually about Rabbie Eliezer and Jacob the Min and not about the name Yeshu. Since there is already an article on Jacob the Min which is in need of attention I would like to move the Jacob the Min material not directly related to the name Yeshu to that article and cut down the detail in this article. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 03:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Another resource fir the interested - [8] - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.125.89 ( talk) 02:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
This page makes repeated reference to a self-published web site, all in favor of the minority view that "Yeshu" doesn't refer to Jesus. All these references should be removed. I was doing just that when Eugene Krabs reverted me. Please discuss. Leadwind ( talk) 06:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Saying that Gil Student is not a reliable source is just plain silly, he is an ordained Rabbi, has been published in journals and has studied the sources and is qualified to comment on the subject. Moreover everything published on his site can be verified by going to the sources he cites. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 18:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Benji, I have a better answer for you now. It turns out the the scholars who refute that Yeshu is Jesus are fringe writers. They also refute that Jesus even existed as a historical, first-century holy man. They rightly point out that the Yeshu in these stories is nothing like the historical or biblical Jesus, but they conclude that the gospels are of equal merit to these Jewish accounts. They represent a tradition of scholarship whose high point was about 100 years ago. A lot has been learned about Jesus, the gospels, and the early Christians since then. Leadwind ( talk) 04:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Gil Student is not a standout expert on this topic, so his self-published web site doesn't count as an RS. Anyone want to say anything before I excise Student, too? Leadwind ( talk) 02:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I deleted Student. Regular old web sites like the one cited are not up to WP standards. See WP:RS. Leadwind ( talk) 14:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Student is a self-published web site. Put a link in the "External Links" section. Now it turns out Zindler is an atheist propagandist, and his book was published by Atheist Press. He touts the fringe view that the gospel account of Jesus owe something to the same community that produced the Life of Yeshu. Not a reliable source for historical information. Zindler doesn't belong as a source on this topic. Leadwind ( talk) 02:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Done. Leadwind ( talk) 23:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The problem with this topic is the lack of academic journal or university textbook material on the subject. Most of the material is sloppy, e.g. the big name theological scholars such as Flusser, Klausner, Schonfield have been criticized for poor linguistics regarding etymology of Yeshu and Notzri, does that mean we should drop them? Kjaer-Hansen's work is peer reviewed, but by other missionaries it seems, does that mean we should drop him despite his thorough and well referenced research? Given the lack of quality academic material to use we shouldn't be quick to drop reference or else the article will evaporate. I think the best approach is to keep what is available but clearly indicate in the article the nature of the source and their standing. I think even Zindler should go back because although he is published by a popular rather than academic press and although I personally find his writings to be damn annoying and of biased tone the fact remains that no one else has investigated the subject to the extent that he has and that alone makes his work important enough to include, albeit with appropriate clarification that his work is of a popular rather than purely academic nature. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 02:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I've been trying to figure out why this page is so messed up and why there's so much bad scholarship on it, and now I see why. There are a couple of current writers who say that Jesus never existed. They use the early Yeshu stories as evidence that the gospels were written in the 2nd century. That's what scholars thought 100 years ago. Now we know that the gospels were written c 65 to 100 about a historical figure who died c 30. The writers who want to portray Jesus as a myth also want to deny that the Jewish Yeshu stories are based on any historical, first-century figure. That's where lots of the weird scholarship on this page is coming from. If we eliminate the spurious scholarship, the topic will come into focus. Leadwind ( talk) 02:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Those who say it doesn't include:
Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 12:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Slr, you can read for yourself what Rosen says because the article is now online. Apparently someone cherry-picked this article to support the idea that Yeshu isn't Jesus, even though the article mostly about Yeshu being Jesus. It's not an academic article, and it's been misused, so we should probably just cut it out, but stick it in the external links section, along with Gil Student's web site. Leadwind ( talk) 03:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I rewrote the lead. The lead should summarize the topic, which it now does. The details are, naturally, open to discussion. Leadwind ( talk) 00:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm running out of reverts otherwise I would revert it again. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 00:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
As it turns out, I have a university-level textbook that includes a discussion of the early Yeshu material. It's only a couple pages, but it's dense and clear. These sorts of sources are the gold standard for reliable sources, so it ought to help us make sense out of all these conflicting claims. Leadwind ( talk) 02:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
4.249.3.5 ( talk) 13:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Nice but it is ignoring contrary opinion in the Steinsaltz commentary and the various traditional commentators who say that Yeshu does not refer to Jesus. The lead as it now stands does not reflect a neutral POV. To be neutral give both views keeping your reference for the view that it is Jesus and use say the Steinsaltz commentary for the opposing view. Don't blank information on Toldot Yeshu drawing from sources unrelated to the Gospels, commonality with e.g the Acts of Peter with Yeshu matching Simon Magus is well known. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 02:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Leadwind ( talk) 14:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Another work that needs to come into the article is Peter Schafer's recent book Jesus in the Talmud (he is a Princeton professor, solid as a rock). He is of the Herford / Klausner school of thought not questioning the equation Yeshu = Jesus but has some good insight into the various passages and how they may be connected to the Gospel Jesus and additional views on the meaning of Pandera. When the sections on each anecdote in the Talmud is expanded, his views (and of course any opposing sourced views) need to come into the article. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 21:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Can we please have a lead that correctly summarizes the article instead using one arbitrary source to boldly state that Yeshu refers to Jesus. Even without Student or even without Steinsaltz we have McKinsey questioning this view as well as the referenced works of several historical Jewish commentators who say it doesn't mean Jesus. Jehiel of Paris' view is particulary mentioned in the Encyclopedia Judaica article on Jesus. These alone are enough to show that "Yeshu = Jesus" is only one view not the unanimous view. Every attempt to provide a balanced view in the lead gets reverted by Leadwind. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 18:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The discussion of the Toldot Yeshu in the intro should be less verbose, detail should rather be added to sections dealing with the Toldot. It is also unbalanced giving the view of one scholar, the Encyclopedia Judaica gives a broader view and points out that the final manuscripts have ended up as a sort of "romance", they are not polemical documents against Christianity despite having started out as "anti-Gospels". Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 20:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
An important topic relating to how we read the rabbinic references to Yeshu is how much authority we grant to the rabbinic literature. If someone were to believe that the Talmud were somehow divinely inspired, one might give it more weight than a secular scholar would. Is there any evidence that scholars such as Steinsaltz regard the Talmud as carrying some measure of divine authority? In any event, is there something we can say in general about how Jews view these texts? Leadwind ( talk) 14:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
is he the only preacher wich the talmud remainds?, or there are other preachers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.106.25 ( talk) 08:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Yeshu for a July 2004 deletion debate over this page.
Copied from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Yeshu
I agree that the Talmudic story is encyclopedic, but it belongs at the existing Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud (kind of like we already had "Mentions of George Washington in Mexican Literature"). Josh Cherry 13:02, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Andrewa 18:30, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
--- As I said in the VfD subpage, I think this argument is relevant to the VfD debate, unlike most of the rest of what's in the subpage. I've replied at length here rather than there because VfD is getting unworkably long as a result of these essays. IMO we need to keep VfD votes and comments short and snappy, out of consideration not just for the other users who need to load the whole page, but also the sysop who must eventually untangle the votes and act on the decision.
To the argument Josh has put above. If someone did create such an article on Jorge Washington, the exact treatment would depend on the information in the article. But assuming that significant use of this name in Mexico was well documented (which seems to be the scenario he proposes if most scholars had a view on the matter), the possibilities would be keep or merge and redirect. There would be no justification for delete.
The only decision that VfD needs to make is whether to delete. The matter of merge and redirect doesn't need sysop action. But I'm not criticising Josh for listing the article on VfD, just BTW. But I do think that both sides are doing their cause damage by raising irrelevant points in the subsequent discussion. Andrewa 18:55, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone else here see problems with this but me? Zestauferov 16:49, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yeshu (usually translated Jesus), or Yeishu (sometimes called Yeshu Ha-Notzri, Jesus the Nasaraean) is a name mentioned in the Mishna. Most scholars believe that the Mishna is referring to Jesus of Nazareth, the central figure of Christianity, despite an anachronism in the Mishnaic legend and some other inconsistencies with Christian tradition. Other people claim that despite the many similarities, which go beyond the names, the person mentioned in the Mishna is different from the more famous Jesus. It is possible that different references to "Yeshu" in the Mishna refer to different people.
According to the Mishna, Yeshu was a Jewish sectarian of the second century BCE (approximately 110-70 BCE). "Yeshu" is used as an acronymic curse meaning "May his name be erased", and Ha-Notzri interpreted as The Watcher. He was originally the student of Yehoshua Ben Perachiah but was sent away for judging a woman by her physical appearance. After several returns for forgiveness he mistook Perachiah's signal to wait a moment as a signal of final rejection, and so he started his own school of thought. This apparently happened during their period of refuge in Egypt during the Pharisee persecutions 88-76BCE ordered by Jannaeus Alexander. He gathered five disciples Matai (who some have identified as Jesus's Grandfather), Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah. Because of his connections with the Hasmonean house a town crier was sent to call for witensses in his favour for forty days before his execution. No one came fourth and in the end he was stoned and Hung on the Eve of Passover and ended up in Hell a decade before the start of the Roman occupation.
He is criticised in the Talmud for "burning his food publicly". In the uncensored Rosh Hashanah 17a text of Rashi certain apostate minim (literally "gnostics" the same meaning as Mandaeans) heretics are described as "the students of Yeshu HaNotzri who have twisted the words of the Torah". In some versions of Gittin 57a and Sanhedrin 43a as well as one version of Sanhedrin 107b (Sotah 47a?) the Yeshu mentioned is further identified with the title Ha-Notzri.
Sanhedrin 103a Berakoth 17b
Mentioned in
Tradition has long connected Yeshu Ha-Notzri with the second century CE
Ben Stada and the early first century CE
Ben Pandera, both of whom have also been connected with
Jesus of Nazareth. These figures are merged in the Sepher
Toledoth Yeshu (Yeshu's Lineage Book), a twelfth-century folkloric work that is not part of the Talmud or Mishnah. Although many scholars accept this identification, it is controversial. R. Jehiel Heilprin (Seder Ha-Dorot, p.151) has argued from Talmudic evidence that these figures were not the same person.
Just to be sure, I've done some additional research. I stand by my edits, so I have restored them. I believe I have come reasonably close to NPOV: I stated what seems to be the mainstream view, but mentioned the difficulties it has and the existence of an alternative view.
I don't understand why you (Zestauferov) consider the belief that the Talmud refers to Jesus to be Christian-centric. Certainly it cannot be said to be pro-Christian, given the negative portrait painted of this figure. In any case, this appears to be the predominant view, among Jews and gentiles alike. Thus Wikipedia should discuss it, even if it is not your view.
You asked for references. I have already cited the Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (Intervarsity Press, 1992; Ed. by Green, McKnight, and Marshall). This has a whole section on Jesus in Rabbinic writings. It states (pg. 366) that "there is good reason to identify this 'Jesus' with Jesus of Nazareth" (the 'Jesus' in question is the one who was an associate of ben Parahiah). I also mentioned this article from the American Jewish Committee, which takes it as fact that the Talmud refers to Jesus. To these I will add The Jewish Encyclopedia, which identifies Yeshu with Jesus. The Jewish Encyclopedia includes the following:
The references to Yannai, Salome Alexandra, and Joshua b. Perahyah indicate that according to the Jewish legends the advent of Jesus took place just one century before the actual historical date; and some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Nahmanides and Salman Zebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge.
I don't know where the idea that "Yeshu" should be translated as "Esau" came from (the version to which you reverted made this seem like fact, ignoring the standard translation as "Jesus"). "Yeshu" begins with a Hebrew yod, whereas "Esau" begins with an ayin. Jewish and Christian sources alike translate "Yeshu" as "Jesus" (see the above citations for examples). Even those who question whether the Mishnaic Yeshu was the Jesus seem to accept that he was a Jesus, i.e., that the names are the same.
I will add that the version to which you reverted had the following to say about a mainstream view:
Many amateur or overenthusiastic historians in an attempt to find historical evidence besides the christian bible concerning the existence of Jesus have sought to merge all these characters into one person.
And you accuse me of being POV?
Josh Cherry 00:12, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Category:Jewish Christian topics
The facts of the character as described in the Talmud should be mentioned *first* -- the different interpretations on whether this character has a connection or even identification with the Jesus of the gospels should come second *after* the facts.
And your sentence "many similarities, which go beyond the names, " is hopelessly POV. You are trying to predispose the readers about the seeming similarities of the character's story before you list Yeshu's story itself.
Yes, I see problemss with Josh's version and I will revert it now (once). If this is going on, this article will be in dire need of Peer review, not that I have much hope, that it will get some.
I'm not an expert in this field, but by applying simple logic and checking some sources on the Web, Josh is simply taliking about another real or fictional person and this is already handled at Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud, as Josh himself stated in the VfD discussion.
Pjacobi 09:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Have you actually read the Jewish Encyclopedia article that I cited above? It is quite clearly talking about the same person (or persons) discussed in the Wikipedia article. Here's another quote from there:
The Talmud also says that Jesus was in Egypt in early manhood. R. Joshua b. Perahyah is said to have fled with his pupil Jesus to Alexandria in order to escape the persecutions of the Jewish king Yannai (103-76 B.C.); on their return Jesus made a remark on the not faultless beauty of their hostess, whereupon R. Joshua excommunicated him; and when Jesus approached him again and was not received he set up a brick for his god, and led all Israel into apostasy.
This is obviously the same person, isn't it?
And what about the "translation" of "Yeshu" as "Esau"? Do you have a source to support your reversion to this apparent inaccuracy? Josh Cherry 15:16, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As I've said I'm not a expert in this domain and I agree that that the article is best served by getting input from from contributors, hopefully attracted by the NPOV listing. And to repeat another point, only from the structure of the debate, there is the interpretation possible, that believers in religion X are trying to set the interpretation of scriptures of religion Y. Pjacobi 15:43, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well I really wish you had read my citations for comprehension before reverting my edit and declaring that "simple logic" told you that I was confusing different characters. You don't have to be an expert to see that the sources I cited think that this Yeshu was the famous Jesus. It wouldn't have taken much effort; if you don't want to put in such minimal effort, don't revert other people's work.
As far as religious stuff, we should generally be wary of people with a religious agenda. This particular case is clearly not a matter of Christians trying to dictate the interpretation of Jewish writings. I gave two Jewish sources that clearly think that the Talmud is discussing Jesus. It shouldn't matter, but for the record, I am not a Christian. My only interest is in reflecting what scholars think. If anyone has a religious agenda here, it's not me. As it stands, the article misrepresents mainstream Jewish thought (along with other mainstream thought). Josh Cherry 16:19, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I already apologized for my full revert, but your edit from 15:11, 24 Jul 2004 also was a nearly full re-write and POV. But we shouldn't focus on these past struggle, as I hope all can agree, that the article is already improving. Pjacobi 16:36, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure how many times I am going to have to write this. Which Yeshu are we talking about? All of them as if they were 1? that would make his life span 4 centuries!!! Can we give the primary sources some prominence and use a little common sense here please over the opinions of writers who have made a conscious effort to cover up facts which demolish the views they attempt to build? Jesus probably is mentioned in the Mishna (Josh's continual reference to the Yeshu and Talmud highlights his ignorance in the matter. Which Yeshu? Which Talmud? And why presenty a Jewish connection as some kind of qualification? Another one ימח שמו וזכרו better known as Hitler also had one so should we adopt his views? The only thing which would impress me would be if he could proove he was an observant orthodox Jew.) as one of the Ben Panderas, but that is all. There is nothing of certainty so lets just present what is certain from the sources and leave the speculations up to those who want to do something with the source material. Zestauferov 08:55, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
My ignorance, eh? Well I keep saying, and backing it up with references, that the standard view is that the story of this Yeshu, the one described in this article, who was associated with Perachia, is a reference to Jesus of Nazareth. I am the only one who has posted any references, and that is what they, and all the books I've looked at, say. These sources are well aware of the chronological issues, as a quote I gave above demonstrates. I suppose that they accept that Talmudic legends about Jesus might contain anachronisms. You will have to take it up with them.
I'm really puzzled as to where you're coming from. Either you are unaware that most scholars hold this view (some reading should fix this, perhaps starting with this Jewish Encyclopedia article that I posted earlier), or you are well aware of this but you disagree with the commonly held view (sorry, Wikipedia has to report that the majority view is the majority view, even if Zestauferov disagrees with that view).
I only mentioned religion when others made it an issue: Pjacobi (above) suggested that this was a case of non-Jews forcing their interpretation on Jewish writings (which I can't understand, given the references I gave), and you, Zestauferov, publicly accused me of anti-semitism here (had I expected an apology, I would have been sorely disappointed; and did you just compare me to Hitler?). Josh Cherry 15:32, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Josh from almost the very first post I made on wiki you started stirring things up between quite noble unsers (like Llywrch) against me to very regretable degrees. It is bad enough you keep building up straw man arguments against me, if I have directly accused you of something then please quote it and lets see if it is unfair in a conflict between users debate (which does not belong here). If so I will appologise, if not then why do you insinuate and twist together testimony which doesn't exist? Are you seeing a cap which fits and thinking it must be for you perhaps? Then that is an issue you have to deal with for yourself and here is not the place to get into that. Lets have no more Ad Hominem here now.
You make two points. 1) You read a lot of work by "christian" (pseudo)scholars. My response is, to each his own I suppose. 2) You seem to think I have no references. My response is, what do you think the original sources are? And besides this I have directed you to wonderful sources on the Ben Pandera page. If there is anything I have missed it is probably because I have not read carerfully because of time restrictions. Anyway I think this discussion page & article is progressing in exactly the right way with all points being covered from all the appropriate angles and not being a person with a particularly strong opinion on the matter (except that NPOV is achieved) I don't see that I can add much to the discussion at this point. Keep up the good work folks. Zestauferov 05:17, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Its not like I have been hiding these, but since you want them all listed in one place. Any mainstream time line of Jewish figures just prior to and under the Roman occupation along with Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a, Sanhedrin 43a, Gittin 57a, Ibn Daud, Nahmonides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p.306) Jacob Tam (Tosafists, shabbat 104B uncensored) R. Jehiel Heilprin (seder Ha Dorot p.151) Aboda Zara 16b-17a, Jerusalem Talmud Avodah Zarah 2. 40d, Shabbath 14 4, Shabbath 14 14d (Ecc. 10:5), Tosefta Hullin 2:23, Sanhedrin 67a, Shabbath 104b, Kalah 1:16 & Kallah 18, Mishnah Yevamot 4:18 add to that the works of Maccoby & Falk, and that should suffice for a good Jewish perspective. As for Steven Bayme and the Jewish Encyclopaedia, general paraphrasing and quoting intricacies are very different. No careful Jewish scholar places Ben Pandera in the early 1st C. BCE. As for your third point why do you build up a scenario which no one but you believes? This is the second time now I ask you to bring any personal grudge to mediation rather than dirty the discussion pages. Lets have no more mud here please. Why not gather the "many" you indicate while you're at it and do something together if you're into that sort of thing. All the best. Zestauferov 16:19, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The article is about people called Yeshu in the Mishnah so that is a very good response. If you want to write a section on how modern scholars interpret these passages then be sure to quote the official perspective summed up in Ency. Jud., 10.15-16. Nothing conclusive can be said beyond the following quotation from EJ (loc. cit., emphasis added and spelling changed to Yeshu):
In other words, Talmud at most refers to the christian concoction of Yeshu but not to any historical reality; and even that is highly speculative and blurred with other figures of other times also named Yeshu. And there were a lot of Jews named Yehoshua including the Wicked Priest of the Qumran Scrolls (Hellenized to "Jason"). Please try not to create a biased POV in that section if you do make one. All serious scholars accept that (as cited by the scholars mentioned in the paragraph above) the passages in question refer to at least three and possibly more people and only sloppy researchers who have not bothered to check the chronology think otherwise (which is enough reason to discount their opinions) it is as simple as that. Zestauferov 00:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Is this article to be re-written? Merged with Quotes about Jesus in the Talmud? The material in the two articles re-organized? Jayjg 21:28, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article is a mess. I believe it is based on a mistaken assumption. The assumption behind this article is that there is a single person in the Talmud named "Yeshu", who is definately not Jesus. The article goes on from there to discuss just who this Yeshu is. The problem is that most Talmud scholars deny the very premise: In the Talmud there are many quotes from different people, with different points of view, about a person named "Yeshu"...and they do not necessarilly all refer to the same person. In fact, most Talmud scholars I know of state that the name "Yeshua" became a stand-in for many people considered to be false Jewish messiahs in early rabbinic Judaism, both real people and legendary. Jesus is certainly meanto be Yeshu in some chapters, yet is certainly not mean to be Yeshu in other chapters. Now, this still could be made into a decent article if this point istaken into account, and it is merged with the current article on Quatations about Jesus in the Talmud. Such a merge along with a clarification could go a long way towards fixing this up. RK 23:24, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
So, umm, where are we now? Jayjg 18:30, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Count up the opinions and you will see. Zestauferov 19:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The articles Yeshu, Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud, Pandera, Toledoth Yeshu, and Sources about Jesus#Mishna all contain overlapping and often contradictory information. I propose that one comprehensive, agreed upon text be created from the information in all these sources, giving all sides of the "debate" on whether or not the Yeshus of the Talmud are references to Jesus or not. This article would then be linked to from the various other articles. Comments? Jayjg 16:55, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It would be virtually impossible to give such a broad entry one absolutely neutral entry title which would not upset somewone. I say keep them separate and well defined but also cross-linked. Zestauferov 17:26, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Jayjg, it seems I've been bothered by the same phenomenon some time ago. At that time User:IZAK and I agreed that these articles contained a lot of superfluous stuff about possibly unhistorical people, and that their content would be better served if everything was under Yeshu. At that time, no action was taken by us, but I fully agree that Wikipedia does not need duplicative information - especially Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud needs to go. PS If you're really fed up, you can always get some community opinion by listing them on VfD, but I would keep this as a last resort. JFW | T@lk 18:48, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
PS That would not be the first time this article goes through VfD. Please make sure you phrase your deletion request eloquently.
Jfdwolff writes "At that time, no action was taken by us, but I fully agree that Wikipedia does not need duplicative information - especially
Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud needs to go. "
I agree with RK here, but disagree with Grutter about starting with a statement about the christian icon. That should be a small subsection at the end of an article objectively presenting the info. Zestauferov 16:39, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree that having this and Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud as separate articles makes no sense, and maybe others should be merged as well. My inclination would be to add what's not redundant here to Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud, since, as has been pointed out by others, the only reason that there's significant interest in Yeshu is the alleged Jesus connection. Certainly what's at Quotations should not be eliminated. And it makes little sense to conceal the alleged Jesus connection from the reader until the end, since that's the most important thing about Yeshu. Also, if the name of the merged article is to be something like "Yeshu", I would hope it could be "Yeshu (Talmud)" or "Yeshu in Jewish legend" or something. For one thing, I think that "Yeshu" might be the word used in modern Hebrew for Jesus, so an Israeli reader might expect to find a very different article under this title. Josh Cherry 22:31, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Josh wrote: "since that's the most important thing about Yeshu" but actually the most notorious Yeshu in the Mishnah is the one who was contemporary with Salome Alexandra, and the most important thing about him is that he is the only record in the Mishnah of a character who may have been the wicked teacher of the Qumran scrolls. Zestauferov 05:41, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
P.S. mentioning an alledged connection with Jesus is all well and good but since trhere are several Yeshus, it should be phrased something like
Zestauferov 05:44, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In the Talmud (a record of rabbinic discussions on Jewish law, Jewish ethics, customs, legends and stories compiled in the first few centuries CE), the name Yeshu repeatedly occurs. This name is usually translated as Jesus, and therefore has lead to debates about the relationship between the Yeshu of the Talmud and the Jesus of Christian worship.
There are a number of competing theories on this subject:
Good intro Grutter. It should not be overlooked that Yeshu as a name also indicates dishonour as an abreviation of Yeshua. It should also be noted that the first theory requires us to mess-up the entire otherwise acceptable chronology of the Mishnah's early figures. Zestauferov 16:31, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To be precise, it's not the fact that "Yeshu" is usually translated into English as "Jesus" that makes people suspect a connection. It's the fact that "Yeshu" is close to what is believed to be the original Aramaic/Hebrew name of the person we call Jesus (the translation of "Yeshu" as "Jesus" is just another consequence of this fact). And it's not only this fact that makes people think there's a connection. There's the fact that he/they is/are sometimes referred to as, essentially, "Jesus the Nazarene", and various similarities in the stories (e.g., execution on the eve of Passover). Josh Cherry 22:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed the piece by user:Jesus Saves! because it, too, was incorrect. For anyone who can read Hebrew/Talmudic Aramaic, the actual quote is found here: [1]. It distinctly says ישו הנוצרי (Jesus Christ). Danny 14:13, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm delighted by your freedom to delete others' content, Danny. Does everybody have this power? If I think something is incorrect, say, in Creationism, can I just delete it? Dbabbitt 14:20, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
If you encounter an article on a controversial subject that you would like to edit, first read the comments on the talk page and view the Page history to get a sense of how the article came into being and what its current status is. Then, if you want to change or delete anything substantial in the text, you should either:
You did just that. Dbabbitt
I am deleting this, because it's definitely incorrect. Some "uncensored editions" of Talmud do mention Jesus in connection with Balaam (Gittin 57a). However, far from being identified with Balaam, Jesus is contrasted with Balaam there: whereas Balaam, in hell, continues to advise the cursing of Israel, Jesus ("sinners of Israel" in most "censored" editions), in hell, gives advice regarded as sound: "Seek their welfare, seek not their harm." That a favorable comparison is intended is made clear by the sentence: "Observe the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the other nations who worship idols." See article "Balaam" in Encyclopedia Judaica.
Danny, I agree with your original deletion of my new material. As written, it mistakenly implied that the specific above quote was not about the Christian Jesus. The quote, of course, clearly was about the Christian Jesus. I only meant to say something about the many other "Jesus" quotes. If this article continues and does not get deleted, it will eventually discuss a number of these quotes. As this happens, I want people to know that some historians believe that many of these quotes (some believe most of them) are not really about Jesus. The rabbis just took any and all examples (real or legendary) and stuck the name "Jesus" in front of them. The person "Jesus" in the Talmud has become like the legendary trouble trouble makers "Reuven" and "Simon" in the responsa literature, who seem to be the only two people ever involved in legal disputes. I think they are probably all related to the same ancestor, the famous Ploni ben Ploni. RK 14:41, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)
Another Talmudic scholar on the loose ... "Many" and "most" are rhetorical devices. Identify those scholars with reference to specific quotes, and we have room for discussion. Aggadata (Jewish legends) uses certain terminologies and identifies names for specific reasons. To compare them to Reuven and Shimon, the equivalent of x and y in English (xs ox gored ys ox = Reuven's ox gored Shimon's ox) is hardly the same. Danny 14:52, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Also, I have come across a number of others who share his view. RK 15:09, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)
I want to question the last paragraph, which I'll copy here for convenience:
First, how can the "many quotes" and "many people" be correct when there are actually rather few passages involved? Second, as Danny points out at the top of this Talk page, the text actually says "Yeshu ha-Notzeri" (Jesus the Nazarene) which is the expression used for Jesus Christ in countless Jewish texts ever since Talmudic times and still today. (But does the Talmud say "the Nazarene" each time, or just some of the time?) Third, there is no reason that Chazal was required to accept the New Testament account of Jesus, even the basic chronology, so the fact that they wrote things contradicting the NT account is not a reason in itself to dismiss the identification. Fourth, how did the great Talmudic commentators interpret the Talmudic Yeshu? -- Zero 12:51, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi. I didn't write that paragraph so I can't vouch for everything in it. On the other hand, I think that there is a misunderstanding in the basic assumption of this page. The Talmud is one corpus of writing, but there are many others that are contemporary to this text, such as the Midrash. I distinctly remember other stories, but I cannot find sources for them (Jesus was a student of Rabban Gamaliel, he used the Tetragrammaton to fly, etc.). All of these probably appear in other texts. Like I originally wrote, there is little about Jesus in the Talmud per se. Frankly, he wasn't that important to the authors. As for the Talmudic commentators, it is hard to tell, since the texts mentioned in the article (and any others like them) were all censored, so they either did not see them, or their commentaries were lost. Danny 00:04, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I would really like to see pointers to all the Talmud pages that are supposed to be involved. I have a list that I have compiled. I want to at least see if they match. 4.249.198.197 23:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
This name is clearly shown in Talmud to refer to a student of Jehudah ibn Perachia, a contemporary of Shimon ben Shetach, from 80 BCE. Please make this clear in the discussion. Patrij ( talk) 00:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The Kollel Iyun ha Daf responsa for this page in the Babylonian Talmud shows that the Yeshu on this page is Yeshu ha-Notsri. Patrij ( talk) 00:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Mishnah was not necessarily written down as a whole but it is referenced: in Haggai 2:13 (Kelimn 1:1, 520 BCE); in reference to King John Hyrcanus (Maaser Sheni 5:15); in the letter about the founding of Qumran in the same times (Yadayim 4:7); in the rulings of Shimon ben Shetach from 80 BCE; and those of R.s Hillel and Shammai up to about 10CE. Amos 2:7 may refer to Kidushin 2:1. The article leaves the incorrect impression that Mishnah did not exist until it was written down. Patrij ( talk) 00:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Jesus' mother was Mary, or their names in Hebrew:
“she was the descendant of princes and rulers.”
the year references on this page need to include CE (I think) looks funny and confusing otherwise
RK removed this information from the Sources about Jesus page, I just thought I'd park it here for now in case there's anything of value that can be retrieved from it. Jayjg 06:57, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Jesus is not mentioned in the Mishnah. At best there is an allusive reference to "ploni" (= rabbinic parlance for "so and so") in M. Yev. 4:13. Aside from that slender possibility, there is no mention of Jesus at all anywhere in the Mishnah. There are references from the Tosefta and from the Talmuds. However, it seems extremely unlikely that the Rabbinic literature can be appealed to for any independent historical data on Jesus of Nazareth. There is nothing to suggest that any reference to Jesus, from anywhere in the entire vast rabbinic corpus, is anything more than a reaction to contemporary Christian claims.
I've redirected your Jeshu article here. Wikipedia does not need four articles on the same topic, it already has three. Here is the text you wrote. Please incorporate any NPOV text, with references, into this article. Thanks. Jayjg 22:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Isn't this version similiar to the old version of
Yeshu before VfD and rewrites:
[2] --
Pjacobi 22:55, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is pretty clear that the people who have written the various articles relating to Yeshu are not qualified to do so. I have studied the topic of Yeshu and ben-Stada in the Talmud for nearly 15 years and am undertaking to rewrite the articles. I have started a page titled Jeshu that uses the Soncino spelling and with time will merge in relevant material from "Yeshu" and "Quotations about Jesus in the Talmud". The very name "Quotations about Jesus" implies that it is a fact that the references to Yeshu are about Jesus when modern scholarship clearly rejects such a claim. The very name "Yeshu" is an acronym for the Hebrew expression "may his name and memory be obliterated" NOT the Hebrew form of the name Jesus! - 15 Oct 2004
User:Kuratowski's Ghost 15 Oct 2004
I deleted the stuff because it contains factual errors such as claims of Yeshu in the Mishna (he isn't mentioned there) and the claim that Yeshu was a common name - it simply isn't true, it occurs nowhere other than in the Talmud and Tosefta and no example is known of anyone having Yeshu as a real name. There is also absolutely nothing about Mary and a carpentar in the Talmud passages - that comes from Celsus not Jewish sources.
Important things to remember about keeping NPOV
I will add a section on Ben Stada and Ben Pandera in good time.
To illustrate "The resemblance of the name Yeshu to Yeshua which some assume to be the original Hebrew or Aramaic for Jesus, is in fact superficial, the latter name contains a gutteral consonant in the original Hebrew which is absent from Yeshu" and perhaps at other places, can somebody please insert the names in Hebrew and in academic transliteration? -- Pjacobi 16:52, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please folks, can anybody be so kind to add the Hebrew and the academic transliteration to illuminate to clueless? --
Pjacobi 09:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I redirected Ben Stada to Yeshu instead of Pandera. Similarly with Plony Ben Stada. My advice is that Plony Ben Stada should be removed completely it doesn't even deserve a redirect. Plony is not a name it is Hebrew for "a certain person" and the combination "plony be stada" is not found in the Talmud its baloney :P
I will be adding more about ben-Pandera to the Yeshu article especially regarding Celsus and Christian writers talking about a Panthera and the relationship this has to the Toledot Yeshu, once this is done we can redirect Pandera as well, its the dodgiest page I have ever seen on Wikipedia :p
"Yeshu" is the common term for Jesus in medieval and modern Hebrew; this point should be incorporated into the article. Jayjg 18:39, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi.. Another point, Yeshu is often understood as the name for Jesus in Hebrew speaking circles today outside/notwithstanding the acronym stuff. And it is wrong to say that this is only a late or Talmudic usage, there is ossuary evidence without the ayin, and some folks, like the late historian David Flusser, consider it a gutteral Galilean Aramaic usage.
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/names An Introduction to the Names Yehoshua/Joshua, Yeshua, Jesus and Yeshu by Kai Kjær-Hansen
One problem is that Christians (Messianics especially) became defensive because of the acronym situation, and attempted to eliminate the Yeshu form from consideration, scholarship on all sides tended to be through glasses. The formation of the acronym is by no means proof that Yeshu was not an actual form of the name of Jesus, we have to watch out for variants on the 'post hoc ergo propter' hoc fallacy.
Shalom, Steven Avery schmuel@nyc.rr.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic Praxeus 07:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
In the un-censored version of Maimonides Hilchos Melachim 11:4 he refers to Jesus; doesn't he use "Yeshu HaNotzri" there? Jayjg 18:38, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.187 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, yes, that's one thing it means. But why does that rule out other possible derivations, including "off-shoot" (from netser), or even "from Nazareth"? Jayjg 18:43, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.187 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost 09:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The introduction said However, scholars now generally argue that there is no connection between Yeshu and Jesus. This is apparently not true. I base this on sources I've cited above, plus a trip I just made to my local library. In fact the majority argue that references to Yeshu are references to Jesus. There are, to be sure, a minority who say otherwise, but this is not what scholars generally argue.
!!!!
Also, the status of Yeshu as an acronym is not inconsistent with its being connected to Yeshua. The generally held view is that it is a play on words, derived from Yeshua by dropping the final letter to keep it from implying "salvation" and to make it into an insulting acronym. Josh Cherry 01:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.187 20:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Pandera (also Pantera, Pantiri, Pantheras and Pantira), meaning " panther" in Aramaic was the name of a Jewish family around the end of the last century BC and first century CE suggested as centered in a certain Bethlehem. (There was at least one Bethlehem in Galilee besides the one in Judea).
The independent sources for information about the family are Epiphanius, the church historian (in identifying "the sacred family" of early Christian writings); Tertullian in 198 CE; Origen, in writing about the 178 CE comments of anti-Christian polemic philosopher Celsus; passages from the Jewish Mishnah; and less seriously the satirical Toledoth Yeshu.
4.249.198.225 23:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The names of people mentioned from these sources as belonging to this family are Jacob ben Matthan; his sons Joseph and Clopas; their sons Yeshu, James, Joseph (or Joses), Simon, and Jude. Finally and most controversially a certain "Plony" Ben Stada is supposed to be illegitimately descended from the same family because of his mother Miriam Mgadla (Miryai the Hairdresser) called Stath-Da as "she was unfaithful" to her husband Paphos Ben Jehuda.
Christian scholars have often suggested that the application of the name Pantheras to the family in question grew out of poking fun at the use of the term "huios parthenou" amongst Helenized Israelites meaning "son of a virgin by repeating it as "huios pantherou" meaning "son of a panther". Otherwise the surname may be of Moorish origin indicating origin from a proselyte.
In the Talmud very little is known about an early first century CE rabbi called Yeshu Ben Pandera whose disciple Jacob of Kefar Soma/Sama or Sakanin, though described as a "Min" (i.e. heretic), later enjoyed a certain amount of admiration from Rabbi Eleazar ben Hyrcanus (c.70-100CE) the Shammaite and later Rabbi Eleazar (Eliezer) ben Dama (the nephew of Rabbi Yishmael/Ishmael Ben Elisha c.90-135CE).
4.249.198.225 23:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
R. Eleazar (Eliezer) is mentioned in a few traditions a couple concerning Yeshu Ben Pantere describing one of two incidents. One of Yeshu Ben Pandira's disciples was called Jacob of Kefar Sakkanin (Tosefta Hullin 2.24; cf. Zara 16b-17a where in manuscript M Sekanya and Ha-Notzri are written) whose comments amused R. Eleazar. Tosefta Hullin II, 22,23, discusses the case where R. Eleazar ben Dama was bitten by a serpent and wanted to be healed in the name of Yeshu ben Pandira (See also Avodah Zarah 40d, 41a) but died before he could prove to R. Ishmael that it was permitted.
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
From the passages about Yeshu Ben Pandera in the Mishnah it can only be determined that his school were doctors, opposed the period's establishment of Roman conspirators, and that they were not popular with the House of Shammai. Hyam Maccoby (SCM Press, 2003) has presented good evidence that this particular Pandera was a Pharisee. Orthodox Rabbi Harvey Falk (NY 1985) further classified him as a Hillelite who sided with the Shammai Pharisees only on the matter of divorce. For centuries many Jews have thought him to be the Historical Jesus behind the figure Christians have been worshipping as Messiah because of the certain similarities between their biographies. For example Epiphanius said Jesus's mother's husband Joseph was the brother of Cleophas, the son of James, surnamed Panther (the literal meaning of Pandera). Interestingly the teachings attributed to Jesus identify his origin from the House of Hillel which was opposed by the House of Shammai.
Ben Pandera mentioned explicitly in
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
It ends at 2:7 4.249.198.225 23:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It is thought that those fragments of the Toldoth Yeshu which are not obviously adapted from the Mishnah concerning the early first century BC Yeshu Ha Notzri or the early second century CE Plony Ben Stada may be referring to this Yeshu Ben Pandera. Ibn Daud, Nahmonides (Vikuakh Ha-Ramban, Mossad edition, p.306) Jacob Tam (Tosafists, shabbat 104B uncensored) R. Jehiel Heilprin (seder Ha Dorot p.151) have all highlighted the fact that these three men are different people from different times.
For NPOV purposes some of this [3] information should be incorporated into the page:
"The story of Mary's seduction by Pandera was in circulation around 150 C.E., when it was cited by Celasus [Origen (ca. AD 185-254), Contra Celsum]; and the Toldot Yeshu was quoted by Tertullian in 198 C.E. Almost certainly its author did not intend his work to be taken seriously, but was rather riduculing Matthew by writing a parody. Nothing else could explain his making Jesus huios pantherou (son of a panther), a transparent pun on huios parthenou (son of a virgin)." William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus
Biblical scholar Morton Smith disagrees that Pandera was based on a pun.
The word parthenos "depends on a Greek translation of Isaiah 7.14; it cannot be derived from the Hebrew with which the rabbis were more familiar. Jesus is never referred to as 'the son of the virgin' in the Christian material preserved from the first century of the Church (30-130), nor in the second -century apologists. To suppose the name Pantera appeared as a caricature of a title not yet in use is less plausible than to suppose it [was] handed down by polemic tradition." Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 61
The name Pandera, Pantera or Panthera "is an unusual one, and was thought to be an invention until [a] first century tombstone came to light in Bingerbrück, Germany. The inscription reads: 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera of Sidon, aged 62, a soldier of 40 years' service, of the 1st cohort of archers, lies here'." Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence
"...Panthera was a common name in the first two centuries of the Christian era, notably as a surname of Roman soldiers....There is no proof that Jesus was referred to by the title bo buios tes parthenous ['son of the virgin'] this early on. It is possible, though, that the accidental similarity of the Infancy Narratives' parthenos to 'Panthera' ...caused 'Panthera' to be picked as the name of the adulterer, once the theme of an adulterous soldier arose in the tradition." John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.
"Eusebius, about 300, tried to explain 'their' [the Jews] Panthera story as a misunderstanding of scripture, and Epiphanius, a century later, actually gave Panther a legitimate place in the Holy Family - he became the Savior's 'paternal' grandfather! Later Christian writers found other places for him in the same genealogy." Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 80 -- Jayjg 17:22, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
After the recent merge, there is a lot of information on the page. However, it needs to be tidied up, some points need to be bulleted.
Maybe the "is/not Jesus" section needs to be in the form of
Issue
Where Issue is Name, Censorship, etc.
Thoughts, issues? CheeseDreams 12:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As well there are significant phonetic difficulties in finding parthenos in the epithet son of Pandera, and this ignores the understandable Hebrew meaning of betrayer.
This seems off-point to me. I don't think anyone argues that Pandera is a corruption of parthenos. They see it as a deliberate wordplay. So the part about phonetic difficulties seems not to apply, and a Hebrew meaning of betrayer fits well with the hypothesis. Josh Cherry 23:58, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
BTW the current wording of the article suggests that the explanation of Pandera as coming from Pandaros is highly conjectural, my understanding is that the use of Pandaros and derivative forms to mean a betrayer is well known and is the reason Shakespeare chose it for one of his characters, Pandare. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:56, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The article says betrayer is an easily understandable hebrew meaning. Well it was not easy for me to make any connection at all.
"Hebrew from the Middle Ages" really? Where can I learn more about this? It sounds like it comes from translating some renaisance literature into Hebrew which I understand was not in use at the time.
I have changed the article to state as a fact that Pandaros' name was used to mean betrayer and borrowed by Hebrew - the usage in Midrash proves this, it is not simply conjecture. Kuratowski's Ghost 16:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost 22:33, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please go through the article and clear up paragraphs like this one?
"Some see the Greek for virgin parthenos in the word "Pandera" either as a corrupted pronunciation or an intential play on words. Others see the names of Jesus' disciples amongst the five disciples of Yeshu; principally Matai and Todah as Matthew and Thaddaeus, though some have gone further and see the names John and Andrew in Buni and Netzer."
It talks about two different Yeshu's as if they were one. The article is full of things like this so it makes it very difficult to know which passages from the talmud (and indeed which talmuds) are being refered to, and what the chronologies are etc..I know that Ben Pandera & Ha-Notzri have only been equated due to one passage spceicifally manuscript M version of the Babylonian Talmud, Aboda Zara 16b-17a but historical factors indicate this is a later gloss and anyway it is not oldest nor only surviving version of the story.
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Could we avoid trading off logic and appraisals of historical source documentation against opinions of various schools? If a passage talks about all the Yeshu's as one then it should be clearly attributed to the school of opinion which takes that stance as is good journalistic practice. Phrases like "some see" are not good enough.
Either way.
Erroneous beliefs even be they of the majority cannot override the facts as they stand. There are four centuries between the birth of one Yeshu and the death of another in question (later in this article mingled together as one) they cannot be the same it is pure insanity. Will someone please address this issue, as there is an editor who has looking through the history pages at least three times now (if my eyes are correct) attempted to override the statements in the books as they are. In the mishnah there are no two ways about it there must be at least two Yeshus.There is absolutely nothing wrong with going into detail as to why some people believe these references to be to one person, but this belief must be shown to be pulling the historical veracity of the Mishnah into question. Anything else is mis-information. 81.132.103.100 11:34, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
4.249.198.64 14:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
An analysis of the reference in Chullin was recently added. I have removed it for the following reasons:
Okay, I did a little more editing to introduce the section that I hope makes this point clearer. The article already stated that Yeshu is always used in relation to a story about the threat of heresy, I just did some editing to make this point stand out more clearly. I think the point itself is pretty clear: "Yeshu" marks a genre of stories, these stories are about the threat of heresy and possibly ambivalent relations between rabbis and early Christians. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I dunno -- it seems to me that Yeshu is the perfect place for a detailed exposition of the Yeshu narratives. I don't see any harm. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:46, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
According to Rubenstein and Boyarin, they are Yeshu narratives. These are two legitimate scholars. Rubenstein's book is part of "the Classics of Western Spirituality" series which is very well-respected. The introduction is by Shaye Cohen, an extremely well-respected historian of the late Second Temple period. Rubenstein discusses the tosefta in Chapter 27: Jesus and his Disciples. Now, Jayjg you have every right to disagree with Rubenstein and Boyarin. And if you know of scholars who take another view (I assume you do) you have every right to make sure they are represented in the article. But the fact that you disagree with Rubenstein and Boyarin is not sufficient to exclude their views from this article. You suggest that this material can be in an article on early Jewish-Christian relations and perhaps it could go there. But in that article, people could well make the following objections: "we do not know for sure if these stories are historically accurate; they really say more about Rabbinic values than about actual relations between actual Christians and Jews." Of two things, however, we are certain: these stories mention Yeshu, and they are in the Talmud. So let's talk about them in the article on the Talmudic figure "Yeshu." Slrubenstein | Talk 19:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
According to Rubenstein (no connection, honest! ;-) both stories mention Yeshu. And it seems to me that "the meaning of the term" is the way the Rabbis used it to frame their relationship with early Christianity. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I see the "Ha-Notsri" has found its way into the Talmud references. Please correct this, as pointed out its only in the Munich manuscript in one place and magically appears in biased English translations. Also move discussion identifying with Jesus to the appropriate section. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost, NPOV polity requires that articles present different views, even if editors disagree with or reject entirely one of the views. The view of Rubenstein and Boyarin is a legitimate view; it is simply irrelevant that you disagree with it. When I added their views to the article, I was careful to explain that this is their view, and not everyone's view. Do not delete it. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I was pulling my punches before, but we are in fact dealing with more than POV we are dealing with factual accuracy and honesty.
Slrubensteins additions to the article uses the Herford translation. This translation contains erroroneous and extraneous material:
Kuratowski's Ghost 20:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the above debate illustrates an important point: checking original sources. A lot of things written about Yeshu in popular literature is based on statements that are only found in translations of the Talmud or unsupported reconstructions of censored material.
As the article notes the Talmud was censored by the Church and the standard texts of the Talmud in fact contain none of the Yeshu references. Subsequently people have tried to restore the censored material and have often done this without supporting evidence from actual pre-censorsed manuscripts. Herford is very guilty of this kind of thing. He has Jesus the Nazarene all over the place in his translation. Not only is this a POV translation, it is unsupported by manuscripts - Notzri occurs only in the Munich text in one place. Now people realize that the translation Nazarene is POV but then instead have Ha-Notzri based on Herford in places where he has added Nazarene not realzing that its Herfords own addition. Similarly Yeshu ben Pandera is not attested in any pre-censored Talmud manuscript but Herford and others add it into their reconstruction of the censored Avodah Zarah based on its occurrence in the related Tosefta passage.
4.249.3.5 ( talk) 13:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The Kfar Samma vs Sichnin case is another example of unnessary debates based on something that only exists in translations not source texts. For example in Zindler's book he gloats over how the rabbis confused Sichnin and Samma. (Zindler is rabidly anti-all Judaeo-Christian religion but he is isn't the sharpest pencil in the box, he even thinks that Sechania is a different place to Sichnin and accuses the rabbis of confusing three places.)
Kuratowski's Ghost 09:14, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
KG, you have an axe to grind with Herford, Rubenstein, and Boyarin. Okay. But do not take it out here. You are an editor and an editor does not put his own views into articles. For you to make decisions about what the correct version of the text is, or what it means is to violate both our Wikipedia:No original research policy and our Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. I have not deleted any claim you made. Do not delete the content I put in. Jayjg, if you feel that the way I wrote it doesn't clearly enough ascribe these views to Rubenstein and Boyarin, please make what you think are appropriate changes, I trust you (if you don't mind!) Slrubenstein | Talk 16:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
To quote the Wikipedia:No original research policy:
"However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
Kuratowski's Ghost 22:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
If you want a primary reference section that is neutral, provide no summaries, simply provide a list of the citations. Any summary is POV because it reflects a particular manuscript. Perhaps we could have a section comparing the different manuscripts. Moreover, it makes perfect sense to have the discussion of what "Yeshu" refers to before going into specific cases. Certainly, no one is going to make up theri own minds on what "Yeshu" refers to by reading the summaries; moreover, there is the question on NPOV (each summary should mention which ms. the summary comes from. The "primary sources'As to spellings of names, I followed the spellings of the sources I used. I understand the argument for consistency and agree that in non-quoted material the spelling should be the same. How is this for a compromise? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
How is that possible though, KG, without it being a part of and introduced within a uniform narrative ? Are ♪R&B♪ not legitimate scholars? Are there no scholars who refute their position? How are those (and possible other) positions viewed within the critical scholarship in general? You say, and I revise: [a] neutral article which stated what was said in the original sources
, but is it not true that there is an ongoing debate within the scholarship as to what was said? Thus, the (so-called?) original, true reading —which, again, I see as inherently interpertive— undoubtedly has scholars which support it. Why not present their views alongside those (R&B) who oppose them instead of arguing that these shcolars which SlR added be excluded from the article? Finally, I return again to the matter of consensus within the critical scholarship wrt these views as the overarching framework for comparing the two (and/or any other) reading of/view/position/interpertation/etc. The point is, KG, is that there is a(n original research) limit as to how much editors here can engage in and debate the various philological points of contention in isolation from and without relying on the pertinent scholarship.
El_C
09:39, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
without interpretation
Well, I think that KG makes the nature of his violation of the No original research policy crystal clear when he states "in my perception the scholarship on the subject is very poor on all sides. In all the works I've read I've spotted obvious errors and blatant ignoring of other points of view." If KG believes this to be the case, he needs to publish it in a peer-reviewed journal before this view can be expressed in the article. Spotting errors is original research. You can't put what you think to be the correct version in. It violates our policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:44, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
The (non-hidden) agenda:
Is everyone ok with this? Kuratowski's Ghost 08:54, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I've basically done the above, very painful. The one thing I did still completely cut was the really irrelevant Br'er Rabbit comment. Kuratowski's Ghost 17:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I will try to figure out a better way to word it, Slrubenstein | Talk 19:25, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Tidy the Rubenstein and Boyarin interpretations so it is clear what is fact and what is their interpretation.
I'm sure you mean what is literal interpertation (translation), and what is the comparative one (philological) ;).
El_C
07:43, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I did some more checking and made a few corrections. Although Notzri does not appear in the Tosefta, it appears in the Babylonian Talmud in all the manuscripts, Munich, Paris, and JTS. According to the Zuckermandel critical edition of the Babylonian Talmud, which is highly regarded, the Tosefta Hullin uses the name Yeshua, not Yeshu. Zuckermandel's edition also identifies Yaakov as being from Samma. The Deuteronomy 23:19 quoted by Yaakov is in all Talmud manuscripts. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:57, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Is this based on your own research? I mean, this claim about what is "normative?" If so, this counts as original research and cannot be included in the article. If on the other hand this is a claim that has been made by an acknowledged authority (e.g. in a peer-reviewed journal or in a scholarly book) then of course you can follow our NPOV policy and state "According to X, ...."
Scholarly sources seem to agree that the its one Jacob that is being referred to even Herford who uses the Samma translation. On the contrary, I provided a scholarly source that identifies this Jacob as coming from Samma. If you know of scholars who, in peer-reviewed articles or in a scholarly book, who claim otherwise, of course you can put that in "A and Y however claim that this is a mistake, based on the evidence of ..." However, you cannot be the arbiter of truth in this article, that is a clear violation of our policies. If different scholars have different views, we must represent all of them. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you did not see that I had already corrected that mistake. In my last edit I specified that the passage in question was from the Talmud, not the tosefta. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
I see also that the current article says that one account is in Chullin and the other in Avodah Zarah. Chullin in fact has both accounts about Jacob of Sichnin (Eleazar's snake bite and Rabbi Eliezer's arrest) following each other. Thats partly why the Samma translation is so odd, the Aramaic form sechania is translated Samma while in the quoting of Rabbi Eliezer's word where the Hebrew form sichnin is used, the translation is sometimes Sakhnia which is another vocalization of sechania. Avodah Zarah only has the second anecdote and adds in the quotes from Deuteronomy etc which are not in the Tosefta version.
The anomalous Yeshua instead of Yeshu is found in the 19th century restoration of censored text in the Vilna printing of the Tosefta of 1881. It also has the anomalous spelling of Pandera in the second Chullin account. The Vilna printing is known for numerous errors. These are corrected in the Lieberman edition which is viewed as authorative. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:02, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Any time I changed or added something to the article, I explicitly mentioned my source. You should learn to do the same. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Instead of petty bickering lets work together on sorting out remaining problems with the article:
No objection, except we need to be clear that the version of the second account in Avodah Zarah is different from the version in Chullin. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
4.249.198.197 00:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Although we can discuss what "seems" to be the case on this talk page, it violates our NPOV and NOR policies to put it in the article itself. However, we certainly can and should provide an account of any debate among scholars or differences between manuscripts. I object to an editor chosing which is the "correct" version. I have no objection to an editor adding "Manuscript x reads ..., manuscript y reads ..." and "Scholar a interprets the difference between anuscripts this way, but scholar b interprets the difference betwen manuscripts that way" Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Although wikipedia articles don't have owners some people are more motivated at some times to work on a particular article than at others, I was motivated back at the time of the merger, at the moment I'm more motivated to kvetch in the Talk page. Slrubenstein seems to be the most motivated to work on the article, so I say go for it, but check what people have to say on the talk.
Maybe we need one of those "List of" articles presenting all the Hebrew text color coding what is standard censored Talmud, what is censored material found in all pre-censorship manuscripts and what are the Munich and Florence comments unique to those manuscripts. El_C can type the Hebrew for us ;)
Kuratowski's Ghost 09:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
A good deal of this article's references are mostly if not all Jewish sources. Jews offering their opinion would propably not want to state what is really says since their religion and culture states that they should lie and confuse when dealing with attitude towards gentiles, because they are tribal. This is a fundamental problem considering the English version of the Talmud was translated by a Jew, and that most of the Talmud has not been translated. Why it might be a fallacy to suggest all Jews prefer to lie, it would be a good assumption on basis of what the Talmud states.
Hi there, Ghost. I was invited by Prof. Rubenstein to drop by and see what's going on. Before I get in too deep, let me just mention a couple of quick points:
When I have time, I'll catch up but 85 KB of talk is a lot of reading! Cheers. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 14:42, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
"In the comparatively short period of three years (1937-1939) he published the four-volume Tosefet Rishonim, a commentary on the entire Tosefta with textual corrections based on manuscripts, early printings, and quotations found in early authorities."
Kuratowski's Ghost 17:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I trust Rubenstein more than the "Jewish Virtual Library" -- I know Rubenstein has an MA in Talmud and a PhD. in religion, and I do not know the credentials of the authors of the JVL. No matter. The way to handle this is to write "According to Rubenstein, Leiberman's text does not include Hullin, although according to the JVL it does" That is the way we comply with our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that the early manuscripts of the Talmud before it was censored are the Munich of 1342, the Florence of 1176, the Hamburg of 1184 (Zindler), thats three, Student speaks of 4 independant manuscripts including the Munich so I was wrong when I said 5 earlier - its 4 with the Munich not in addition to the Munich, from a text by McKinsey available online at [4] I understand that the remaining early manuscript is the Karlsruhe although I don't have a date. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
SlR can you be more specific when you say the translation Samma comes from the Zuckermandel. Does it in fact have samech-mem-aleph in the text? The texts I have seen all have samech-kaf-nun-yud-aleph. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry, I have been pre-occupied; I will try to check again, Slrubenstein | Talk 22:32, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I've made some additions in particular the second chullin account paralleling the avodah zarah account which went missing. I will add some more info on where Noztri occurs and where it doesn't, not sure if what we've got currently is correct. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I notice that the Jewish Encyclopedia in the Ben Dama article refers to Jacob the min as "Jacob of Kefar Sama (Sakonya)", seems that they consider it to be just another name for the same place. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
"The Talmud may mention Jesus and Christianity in coded terms, such as min (???, sometimes translated "apostate" or "heretic"), though this term refers to various sectarian groups. In terms of labeling Christians as minim it is important to note the adage of Rav Nahman in the name of Rava bar Avuha in Tractate Chullin 13b: There are no minim among the gentiles, i.e., the appellation could only be applied to converts from Judaism." Min in modern hebrew means sex,species(same as english word :sex).Minim could mean species too(plural:many species).
This whole page is full of extraneous nonsense. He was the soul Onkelos conjured from hell, period. Look in Chesronos Hashas, oh I forgot Soncino doesn't publish that. These editors need to: 1.Learn to learn Gemara, wait a second they can't because no one who really knows Gemara would ever teach it to a Non-Jew just like the Kabbalah center doesn't really teach Kabbalah.
4.249.198.197 00:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Disregard the Gregorian calendar, it's worthless. After meeting these requirements, then start writing these entries.
4.249.198.197 00:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The name "Yeshu" is not on that page. I want to know the names of the rabbis who hold the above opinion. 4.249.198.136 ( talk) 19:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The story about roman army officer Panthera originate from the fact jews misunderstood the greek word parthenogenetis (= being born to a virgin) and used this to create a slander, since Talmud always describes Jesus as the worst kind of fake prophet.
The following appear to violate our NOR policy:
NOR concerns can be addressed simply by naming the critics who make these claims, and if possible providing citations. The section ends mentioning Herford. if all of these arguments are of Herford, I suggest he be named right at the top. If this arguments have been forwarded by a number of scholars they should all be given credit. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I guess this section caught my eye as being particularly argumentative. Other sections seem pretty descriptive of the rabbinic literature; I focussed more on the argumentative sections. And many of those sections actually do ascribe the scholarship. Certainly, any section with argument should be sourced. I won't argue with your main point. Whoever has claimed that Yeshu is Jesus for example should be sourced too, or course. Of course there are othe examples from the article For example, "It has been used as an acronym for the Hebrew expression yemach shemo vezichro..." we should provide some examples of who has used it this way, with citations. Also, "Some argue that this has always been its meaning" - do you know who? Can you add the sources and citations? Also, "Others point out that the word is similar to, and may be a wordplay on, Yeshua, believed by many to be the original Aramaic or Hebrew name of Jesus, the central figure of Christianity" - do you know who the others are? Can we add them and citations? And most obviously, just adding sources to this would resolve a lot of the problems (since this is a summary of much of what is to come: "There are currently at least three approaches to this question. Some argue that there is no relationship between Yeshu and the historical Jesus; some argue that Yeshu refers to the historical Jesus; some argue that Yeshu is a literary device used by Rabbis to comment on their relationship to and with early Christians" - we should have one, two or three names for each basic view and citations. I think I have made only one major contribution, which I sourced. Frankly, I think you know this literature better than I do so i think you are more likely to know the appropriate sources. Can you add the Zindler and Student as appropriate? My point remains the same, no matter what examples I provide: much here appears to be Original research and violates our NOR policy. Anyone who knows who holds these views and can provide the sources brings us into compliance. Who else has worked extensively on this article besides you? Are there others who may know the sources? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 14:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I will ask Jayjg too. look, I am not going to delete anything - I take everything in the article on good faith. The fact is, I think it is a very good article that more people should read. This lack of sources is I think the main flaw and I don't want to leave other people grounds to challenge the article. I am sure you are busy as I am ... just want to keep this issue on the radar. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
When reading about the origins of Jesus' name, why does it seem that no one ever mentions the Syriac-Aramaic version (found in the Peshitta, for example), which is yisho, spelled with four letters: yud, shin, vav, ayin, with vowel markings to indicate it is pronounced yisho, and not yeshu (or yeshua)? What is the etymology for the Syriac-Aramaic spelling and pronunciation? Is it a valid, early source, or not? Jimhoward72 12:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC). I will add another question - is there any etymological/historical relationship between the Hebrew Esav (Esau) and the Arabic Isa (Jesus)? The spelling is almost identical: עֵשָׂו/عيسى Actually the Arabic name 'Isa/عيسى literally means Against/Opposing/Facing/Anti-Yeshu and corresponds to the Hebrew letters עישו. In Arabic, the name Esau is spelled quite differently.
In my opinion, the Syriac form is based on the original Hebrew, and is a valid, early source. But a couple comments on the pronunciation. The vowel in the first syllable is indicated (at least in my copy of the Syriac NT) by a little mark that looks like an epsilon, and was originally pronounced like an epsilon. In the second syllable, the vowel mark derives from the Greek letters omicron and upsilon (the upsilon written like a y, upside down over the omicron!) and was originally pronounced like this combination in Greek, that is, as in "acoustics". The `ayin was pronounced as well, but either it did not have a "patach furtive" before it (the "a" sound that is inserted before final `ayin in Hebrew), or else they simply didn't feel a need to write such a "furtive" letter. So in other words, the name was pronounced quite similar to Yeshua`, perhaps with less of an "a" being heard before the `ayin. Now, almost 2000 years later, the pronunciation has changed.
As for the Arabic form, I don't know. I have noticed myself that it is basically the name Yeshua` spelled backwards, except that it has a ya instead of a waw. (Notice that it has two ya's, not a ya and a waw.)
EricK 12:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I have reworded the introduction to the "primary references" section, to make it more accessible (and also to improve language).
I move this passage over from the article:
The first paragraph is merely a rehash of what has already been stated above about the censoring of Talmud. The second paragraph is intersting information on Liebermann and his work but in how far is it really relevant to this article, given what the last sentence here says. Also, we have no such introduction in the section on the Babylonian Talmud.
Another open question would be, whether the current sequence Tosefta - Talmud is better than the reversed one.
Str1977 (smile back) 16:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the reasoning for putting Tosefta first, and providing the explanation of who and when it was edited, especially when it was edited so recently (long after the Talmud) is that the tosefta themselves are generally believed to have been composed before the Talmud and thus represent an early source. However, they existed in fragmentary form - thus the importance of Lieberman's achievement in producing a critical edition bringing the fragments together. For this reason, I believe that a revised version of the text you removed ought to be restored to the article. I think there is an ambiguity in the passage you removed: does the Lieberman edition lack only the critical commentary on Chullin, or both the critical commentary and tosefts on Chullin, and is there no rference to Yeshu in the Lieberman edition? I do not know the answer to this question but assume someone watching this article does. IF the Lieberman edition includes material relevant to Yeshu, I think that a revised version of this text - removing the redundancy and ambiguity - should be restored to the article. If the answer is no then I agree with your edit. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost's explanation of the relevance for the brief discussion of Lieberman satisfies me as a reasonable justification for putting it back in. However, I do think Str1977 is right about the redundancy and the ambiguity. I would think that KG could make minor edits to the passage that would eliminate these problems - am I right? If so, I propose that you leave ou the first paragrtaph (just a sentence), put the second one back in, fix up the ambiguity about Lieberman's coverage of Chullin and perhaps add the point about Zindler and Student - i.e. explain that some disagreements have to do not with the interpretation of the source material, but that some people use different (or more i.e. Lieberman as well) sources. This should satisfy Str1977 and make the whole thing clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
"Massey's identification of this character as the Jesus of the New Testament is, however, radically outside of the scholarly mainstream and enjoys no support from any New Testament scholar of any stature."
How very true. Egyptologists always seem to go seriously astray when they venture into textual criticism. Why not delete the entire reference? PiCo 06:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
"(e.g. Hanukkah is only mentioned in passing in the Talmud, because of the holiday's connection with the Hasmonean dynasty, whose legitimacy was challenged by the Pharisees). "
POV issue, It's just as likely that Hannukah is not mentioned because the Romans wouldn't have approved of a holiday asserting Jewish independance. I think this example should be removed or changed
Wolf2191
12:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
"Still, the names are not identical, as the Hebrew d (dalet) does not correspond to the Greek th (theta); comparison with other Greek words transliterated into Hebrew indicates that any original Greek would have had a delta as its third consonant, not theta as in "Pantheras"." R' Yaakov Kamenetzky in Emet L' Yaakov posits that dalet should really have a "TH" sound not "D" as is pronounced today. Wolf2191 12:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It should in fact say Mishna. The Talmud (Shabbos - 22b) has a long discussion starting "What is Hanukkah?" because it isn't discussed in the Mishna. Wolf2191 00:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
R' Yehuda Ha'Nassi the redactor of the Mishna lived sometime after the Bar Kochba revolt. So the explanation (I think Reuvein Margolies says it) works there as well. The explanation mentioned in the article is (most surprisingly) from the very RW Orthodox R' Moses Sofer. The point is that R' Yehuua Ha'Nossi who was from Davidic ancestry was upset about the Hashmonean usurpation of the Davidic right to the throne and therefore limited his discussion of their actions. As usual some say that (my ancestor) R' Sofer never said it (It's really more in line with Graetz's modus operandi) Wolf2191 16:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, Yosef Kappah in his critical edition of Maimonides commentary to Mishna speculates that Maimonides included in his principles of faith (and in his letter to Yemen), that the Messiah will descend from the Solomonic dynasty as a polemic against those Christains that claim he will descend from another son Nathan (see Genealogy of Jesus). Even stranger is the Zohar's claim that the Messiah will come from "Nathan's Wife" (though there does exist a (questionable) tradition that the house of Solomon was wiped out. Wolf2191 01:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
"Whereas the Pharisees were one sect among many in the Second Temple era," This is a POV statement. It would be good if we can make it clear that this is only the opinion of one scholar. In fact one can make a strong case that the Pharisess influenced most of the country, with the Essenes being a small irrelevant minority sect and the Sadducees consisting of the aristocratic priestly segment, however most of the country followed the Pharisees. Certainly one of MANY is a gross exaggeration Wolf2191 15:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations to those of you who have put together this interesting and informative entry. After I read it, I wondered what the Hebrew Wikipedia had to say about it, so I looked. I found that they have an entry he:ישו (Yeshu) which simply identifies Yeshu with Jesus. I have been trying, on the discussion page, to convince a couple people that this is not proper and that the title should be changed. (I suggested "Yeshu (Yeshua` minNatseret)".) That would allow room for an article similar to this one ( Yeshu) on the subject of the person (or persons) in Jewish literature called Yeshu. But I'm not having much success. Apparently they had a vote a couple years ago on whether to change the title to Yeshua`, and it was about 2 to 1 against changing it. But the arguments put forward did not reflect the contents of this entry. If any of you want to weigh in on the Hebrew talk page, you're welcome. EricK 12:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Can someone provide sources for the following claims:
We need verifiable sources for these claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Assertions need to be verifiable. If you know the sources, please add in references/citations please. Thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 21:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. As for the other assertions - maybe whoever put them in can find the sources; I never meant to imply that you alone are responsible for all the content in the article! Slrubenstein | Talk 08:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm slowly putting together a rewrite (with references) of the Interpretations of the name section that will emphasize that there is only disagreement over the identity and meaning of Yeshu in the Talmud and Tosefta, in later works it was consistently used for Jesus and is used for Jesus in modern Hebrew (starting with Klausner's writings). Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 18:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I've started making changes and adding references. Besides the need for references the article needs to make it clear that the dispute over the identification of Yeshu with Jesus concerns only the Talmud and Tosefta, not for example modern Hebrew usage where Yeshu Ha-Notzri is certainly used for Jesus without any doubt nor the usage in the Toledoth Yeshu where without a doubt certain aspects of the character are based on Jesus. Also there is a wider spectrum of interpretation than the article originally suggests, e.g Klausner takes it as a given that Yeshu means Jesus but disputes that the anecdotes where it occurs originally contained the term so to him Yeshu = Jesus but the individuals in the Talmud aren't Jesus they have merely been wrongly called by a term meaning Jesus. The view of several writers besides Massey mentioned by Gil Student that Yeshu is not simply Jesus but a contributer to a myth of Jesus needs to be mentioned, that view differs from Zindler and MacKinsey (who see both the Gospel Jesus and Talmud Yeshu as myth) as well as from a traditional simplistic equation of Yeshu with Jesus. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 00:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
None of these locations are marked as ever having been censored. Therefore I have removed these false references from the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.249.198.182 ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 17 June 2008
No they don't. In the first two cases they are marked as interpolations. Who interpolated them? You need to answer that. In the last case the name Yeshu is not on the page at all. 4.249.198.136 ( talk) 19:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I am remving a section of the article to this talk page; I will explain why in a sec.
Many, many months ago I added the "fact" tags because I saw no source for these claims; they are either false, or violate original research. Several months have passed and no one has found citations for them. I think the risk of having false information, or a passage that violates our policies, does too much damage to the credibility of the encyclopedia to justify keepoing this material in.
I did not simply delete it because it is my hope that some editor will find appropriate citations and at least parts of this section can be reincoprorated into the article. I ask the editors who work on this article to be patient and kep this section here on the talk page, undeleted and available for improvement, until and if such time occurs when we can move it or parts of it back into the article.
I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge that Kuratowski's Ghost and other editors have done terrific work lately in adding citations and that this article is much much better than it was a year or two ago. I appreciate and value that hard work. It is precisely because we all value adding citations that I have removed this from the article. And frankly, it is because i hope KG or someone else can find appropriate citations that i did not just delete it.
The article is stronger without these paragraphs, littered with citation tags, in it. Perhaps it would be even stronger if we could find citations for these points, so I ask other editors not to delete this but rather to renew their efoorts to add citations if they have any.
For what it is worth, I think the article without this passage remains very strong. I really think removing the passages with so many dubious claims makes the article much stronger. Slrubenstein | Talk 07:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi KG - sounds good. We agree to keep this section on the talk page and as you (or others) find appropriate sources we can move it back in (and perhaps into different sections? i am not arguing against the previous organization, just observing that with reliable sources we may also have more information and decide that the material works better in another section). I'm glad to have another oppotunity to thank you for the work you have been doing finding more sources for this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Calling Shibli Zaman a "conspiracy theorist" is an ad hominem attacked for which I could not find any references that meet Wikipedia's rules for such citations. Therefore, it has been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.46.207.189 ( talk) 20:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Wolf just deleted this: "Yeshu (ישו in Hebrew) is also an abbreviation for the Hebrew words ימחק שמו וזיכרון "Y'machk Sh'mo v'Zichron" (May his Name and Memory be Erased)." Now, I did not add it to the artile and hav eno personal investment, but it was in for long time so i assume many editors here supported it. i am not challenging Wolf's deletion, but I think his point is that it shoud no be returned to the article unless we specify who believes this (to comply with NPOV) and provide a verifiable, reliable source or sources (V and RS, as well as NOR). Slrubenstein | Talk 15:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
It first shows up in Czarist Russia - to support Pogroms (similarly Akum was made as an acronym for "Ovdei Christos U' Miriam") - I know of no evidence that the expression was used in Talmudic times. Of course, if there is a reputable source for it it can stay. Best! Wolf2191 ( talk) 16:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
OK! Wolf2191 ( talk) 19:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Still lots of work needed in the article, such as debate around "notzri" which needs to be consolidated in the section around the usage in Talmud and Tosefta. Then discussion of usage in later writings: the toldoth narratives which needs more discussion, usage in Rashi for Jesus etc, then usage in modern Hebrew as a standard translation of Jesus resulting from Klausner's writings and criticism of the modern usage. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 19:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Rashi's use of Toledot Yeshu is discussed in Sid Leiman's '83 JQR article - he cites a 71 cambridge critical edition of the Toledot Yeshu will check Proquest later. Wolf2191 ( talk) 20:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
and see also this - #Christians and Heretics in Rabbinic Literature of Late Antiquity# Richard Kalmin # The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 87, No. 2 (Apr., 1994), pp. 155-169
My computer isn't doing PDF's for the moment for some reason but I will see what can be added when its fixed. Wolf2191 ( talk) 20:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There needs to be some treatment of this person here. Though autobiographical details are scarce, he appeared to have lived in the second/first century BCE, and the Greek transliteration of his name appears to have come in the first century, by the work of his grandson. Its appears to have some relevance to the Jesus/Yeshua transcription issue, as the Hebrew texts are surviving from that era, and the Greek transcription came well before Jesus. - Ste vertigo 05:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
There is no text calling ben Sirach by the name "Yeshu" and so he is not relevant to this article. Extant Hebrew texts of Sirach call him Yeshua ben Sira, not Yeshu. These texts are possibly back translations into Hebrew of the Greek text and not the original Hebrew, but the view is that his original Hebrew name would have been either Yehoshua or Yeshua, no one believes he was called Yeshu. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 02:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I have completed as much as I can for now on the development of the usage of the term. I am busy trying to follow the development of usage section with sections on each of the Yeshu accounts giving more detail. There is much that can be added to the accounts other than the Yeshu ben Pandera account. Currently the latter has the most information but a lot of it is actually about Rabbie Eliezer and Jacob the Min and not about the name Yeshu. Since there is already an article on Jacob the Min which is in need of attention I would like to move the Jacob the Min material not directly related to the name Yeshu to that article and cut down the detail in this article. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 03:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Another resource fir the interested - [8] - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.125.89 ( talk) 02:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
This page makes repeated reference to a self-published web site, all in favor of the minority view that "Yeshu" doesn't refer to Jesus. All these references should be removed. I was doing just that when Eugene Krabs reverted me. Please discuss. Leadwind ( talk) 06:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Saying that Gil Student is not a reliable source is just plain silly, he is an ordained Rabbi, has been published in journals and has studied the sources and is qualified to comment on the subject. Moreover everything published on his site can be verified by going to the sources he cites. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 18:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Benji, I have a better answer for you now. It turns out the the scholars who refute that Yeshu is Jesus are fringe writers. They also refute that Jesus even existed as a historical, first-century holy man. They rightly point out that the Yeshu in these stories is nothing like the historical or biblical Jesus, but they conclude that the gospels are of equal merit to these Jewish accounts. They represent a tradition of scholarship whose high point was about 100 years ago. A lot has been learned about Jesus, the gospels, and the early Christians since then. Leadwind ( talk) 04:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Gil Student is not a standout expert on this topic, so his self-published web site doesn't count as an RS. Anyone want to say anything before I excise Student, too? Leadwind ( talk) 02:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I deleted Student. Regular old web sites like the one cited are not up to WP standards. See WP:RS. Leadwind ( talk) 14:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Student is a self-published web site. Put a link in the "External Links" section. Now it turns out Zindler is an atheist propagandist, and his book was published by Atheist Press. He touts the fringe view that the gospel account of Jesus owe something to the same community that produced the Life of Yeshu. Not a reliable source for historical information. Zindler doesn't belong as a source on this topic. Leadwind ( talk) 02:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Done. Leadwind ( talk) 23:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The problem with this topic is the lack of academic journal or university textbook material on the subject. Most of the material is sloppy, e.g. the big name theological scholars such as Flusser, Klausner, Schonfield have been criticized for poor linguistics regarding etymology of Yeshu and Notzri, does that mean we should drop them? Kjaer-Hansen's work is peer reviewed, but by other missionaries it seems, does that mean we should drop him despite his thorough and well referenced research? Given the lack of quality academic material to use we shouldn't be quick to drop reference or else the article will evaporate. I think the best approach is to keep what is available but clearly indicate in the article the nature of the source and their standing. I think even Zindler should go back because although he is published by a popular rather than academic press and although I personally find his writings to be damn annoying and of biased tone the fact remains that no one else has investigated the subject to the extent that he has and that alone makes his work important enough to include, albeit with appropriate clarification that his work is of a popular rather than purely academic nature. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 02:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I've been trying to figure out why this page is so messed up and why there's so much bad scholarship on it, and now I see why. There are a couple of current writers who say that Jesus never existed. They use the early Yeshu stories as evidence that the gospels were written in the 2nd century. That's what scholars thought 100 years ago. Now we know that the gospels were written c 65 to 100 about a historical figure who died c 30. The writers who want to portray Jesus as a myth also want to deny that the Jewish Yeshu stories are based on any historical, first-century figure. That's where lots of the weird scholarship on this page is coming from. If we eliminate the spurious scholarship, the topic will come into focus. Leadwind ( talk) 02:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Those who say it doesn't include:
Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 12:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Slr, you can read for yourself what Rosen says because the article is now online. Apparently someone cherry-picked this article to support the idea that Yeshu isn't Jesus, even though the article mostly about Yeshu being Jesus. It's not an academic article, and it's been misused, so we should probably just cut it out, but stick it in the external links section, along with Gil Student's web site. Leadwind ( talk) 03:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I rewrote the lead. The lead should summarize the topic, which it now does. The details are, naturally, open to discussion. Leadwind ( talk) 00:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm running out of reverts otherwise I would revert it again. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 00:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
As it turns out, I have a university-level textbook that includes a discussion of the early Yeshu material. It's only a couple pages, but it's dense and clear. These sorts of sources are the gold standard for reliable sources, so it ought to help us make sense out of all these conflicting claims. Leadwind ( talk) 02:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
4.249.3.5 ( talk) 13:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Nice but it is ignoring contrary opinion in the Steinsaltz commentary and the various traditional commentators who say that Yeshu does not refer to Jesus. The lead as it now stands does not reflect a neutral POV. To be neutral give both views keeping your reference for the view that it is Jesus and use say the Steinsaltz commentary for the opposing view. Don't blank information on Toldot Yeshu drawing from sources unrelated to the Gospels, commonality with e.g the Acts of Peter with Yeshu matching Simon Magus is well known. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 02:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Leadwind ( talk) 14:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Another work that needs to come into the article is Peter Schafer's recent book Jesus in the Talmud (he is a Princeton professor, solid as a rock). He is of the Herford / Klausner school of thought not questioning the equation Yeshu = Jesus but has some good insight into the various passages and how they may be connected to the Gospel Jesus and additional views on the meaning of Pandera. When the sections on each anecdote in the Talmud is expanded, his views (and of course any opposing sourced views) need to come into the article. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 21:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Can we please have a lead that correctly summarizes the article instead using one arbitrary source to boldly state that Yeshu refers to Jesus. Even without Student or even without Steinsaltz we have McKinsey questioning this view as well as the referenced works of several historical Jewish commentators who say it doesn't mean Jesus. Jehiel of Paris' view is particulary mentioned in the Encyclopedia Judaica article on Jesus. These alone are enough to show that "Yeshu = Jesus" is only one view not the unanimous view. Every attempt to provide a balanced view in the lead gets reverted by Leadwind. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 18:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The discussion of the Toldot Yeshu in the intro should be less verbose, detail should rather be added to sections dealing with the Toldot. It is also unbalanced giving the view of one scholar, the Encyclopedia Judaica gives a broader view and points out that the final manuscripts have ended up as a sort of "romance", they are not polemical documents against Christianity despite having started out as "anti-Gospels". Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 20:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
An important topic relating to how we read the rabbinic references to Yeshu is how much authority we grant to the rabbinic literature. If someone were to believe that the Talmud were somehow divinely inspired, one might give it more weight than a secular scholar would. Is there any evidence that scholars such as Steinsaltz regard the Talmud as carrying some measure of divine authority? In any event, is there something we can say in general about how Jews view these texts? Leadwind ( talk) 14:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
is he the only preacher wich the talmud remainds?, or there are other preachers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.106.25 ( talk) 08:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)