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Teresa Carpenter provides a statement of Yane Sandanski’s said to Miss Stone in 1901, that in his band “there’s a mixture of nationalities: Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, a Jew etc.” This information is taken from the Memoirs of Katerina Tsilka, the other hostage in the Miss Stone Affair. (source: Тегеѕа Сагреntег, The Miss Stone Affair, рg. 40, 2003.) Teresa Carpenter is a Pulitzer winning author and one of the most prominent Miss Ellen Stone’s biographers. Speaking of Sandanski’s fellow highwaymen of many nationalities, Miss Stone herself noticed in her Memoirs, that the leader was a Macedonian pillar. (Miss Ellen Stone, ”Six months among brigands,” McClure’s Magazine, may 1902, pg. 13-14.)
The Greek pro-fascist politician and journalist Eleftherios Stavridis also says that Sandanski claimed that the Macedonians, all of them are neither Bulgarians, Greeks nor Vlachs, but a distinct ethnicity, that the Macedonian population are Macedonians only, pure descendants of the people of Alexander the Great and Philip II of Macedonia, who also weren't Greeks, but their enemies, that subdued them."'
PRIMARY SOURCE: ” Τα Παρασκηνια του ΚΚΕ” (Ελευθέριος Σταυρίδης), Athens, Greece, 1953, p. 213. ;
SECONDARY ACADEMIC SOURCES: PhD. Dimitar Ljorovski, Yane Sandanski – an apostle of the Macedonian national idea, “Macedonian Spark,” 11. XI 2011. ; PhD. Dimitar Ljorovski, “Macedonia and Greece on the Balkans,” INI, Skopje, 2014, p. 101-104.)
Iordan666 ( talk) 22:39, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
I found this claim incorrect: “the idea of Macedonian autonomy was strictly political and did not imply a secession from Bulgarian ethnicity.” The secondary source doesn’t say that about the Sandanists, and many other sources dispute it. If I’m wrong, please show me the citation from the secondary source. Iordan666 ( talk) 12:19, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
Please stop adding "Macedonian revolutionaries" cat when the person is clearly not ethnic Macedonian. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Do the views of Sandanski himself count? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx ( talk • contribs) 16:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
His views can be illustrated by his recorded quotes. You say he was Macedonian as in ethnic Macedonian basing this on the fact that he was seeking an independent Macedonia (or "free Bulgarian Macedonia" in his own words), that does not equate with him being ethnic Macedonian. I'm surprised things as basic as this need explaining. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx ( talk • contribs) 16:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC) ]
inkubisse, you´re crazy!!!!!i´m from petrich,from pirin macdonia.i have lived 5 years in blagoevgrad.there is no such thing like ethnic macedonians in bulgaria!!!open your eyes! we are bulgarians,we say that we com from macedonia as a region.we are not opressed,we can speakour dialect whenever we want,sing our songs, etc. by the way in about every second town or village in the region there are other dialect chracteristics!!!! read some foreign press —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.32.131 ( talk) 14:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Pravilnik-sandanski.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 20:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
very doubtful references. :) :) :) anybody could have written these articles from the "promacedonia.org"-site. is there a prove that he declared himself Bulgarian? if not, the "references" should be not listed.
"published in the "Narodnay volya newspaper in 1909". show it! otherwise that link should be taken out, too. Cukiger ( talk) 04:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not see any images from any "narodna volya newspaper".. not under reference 1 or 2 where it should probably be. these references are so ridiculous. Cukiger ( talk) 05:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
why isnt his name written in cyrillic? either macedonian or bulgarian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.207.72.93 ( talk) 13:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Please, stop vandalizing the article. Jingby ( talk) 08:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
In this reference ("Bulgaria was clearly treated by the Serres activists as a foreign, hostile force and Sandanski condemned what he called the Bulgarian imperialism. According to him, the Macedonians (incl. all ethnicities) had to emancipate themselves as a self-determining people(Siljanov, Ibid. 498).") It doesn't say (incl. all ethnicities), that's added by the wiki editor. It's about Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, who witnessed:
— "Yanе had a theory that the Macedonian question should not be regarded as a part of the Bulgarian national ideals… He clearly stated that those who propagate "Bulgarian national unification" in Macedonia are death-enemies of IMRO, just like the Greek and the Serbian national-chauvinistic agitators. Furthermore, he disseminated the belief that the masses are an independent, distinctive people, and they have to believe in it. They mustn't rely on any of the alien forces." (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943; II фототипно изд. "Наука и Изкуство", София, 1983), с. 498.)
85.30.109.189 ( talk) 21:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Also, there was a false reference about Deliradev speaking about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia (See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.). In the source there's no such a statement of Deliradev. He even say that all the Macedonians and the Bulgarians should oppose the Bulgarian chauvinist agenda, in the very same source. If needed, I'll find a way to provide the pages. 79.126.169.242 ( talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
— "Yanе had a theory that the Macedonian question should not be regarded as a part of the Bulgarian national ideals… He clearly stated that those who propagate "Bulgarian national unification" in Macedonia are death-enemies of IMRO, just like the Greek and the Serbian agitators. Furthermore, he disseminated the belief that the masses are an independent, distinctive people, and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces." (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943; II фототипно изд. "Наука и Изкуство", София, 1983), с. 498.)
79.126.169.242 ( talk) 14:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Someone's accused me for vandalism on this article. Can he or she be more specific? 85.30.127.197 ( talk) 18:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
There was a false reference about Deliradev speaking about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia (See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.). Someone returned it back. In the source there's no such statement of Deliradev. He even say that all the Macedonians and the Bulgarians should oppose the Bulgarian chauvinist agenda, in the very same source. If needed, a way to provide the pages will be found. 79.126.188.253 ( talk) 17:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed:
— "Yane had a theory that, it's not pleasant neither for the Macedonian population nor for Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification, and those who disagree with that theory have sold themselves to the Bulgarian government. He says, everyone in Macedonia, or outside, who propagates liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be death enemy to the IMRO, just like the Serbian and Greek agitations and bands. He claimed and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors."" (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)
Pavel Deliradev, a well known Bulgarian publicist and theoretic, but also a co-idealist and fellow revolutionist of Sandanski's, name him as: a meritorious son of the Macedonian nation, who fought against the Bulgarian chauvinism, for a free, united and independent Macedonian state, which will have brotherly relations with all free Balkanic nations. (Pavel Deliradev's biography of Yane Sandanski, Sofia, 1946, pg. 44. and the exact page 13.)
In 1904, Sandanski’s moto was “Macedonia for the Macedonins”, and he fought against the Turks and his enemies sent by the Supreme Committee in Sofia, Bulgaria. ( a letter of the French diplomat in Constantinople, August 10, 1905 ; „Yane Sandanski about the distinctiveness of Macedonia and the Macedonians“, „Јане Сандански и македонското национално дело“, MANU, Skopje, 2007, pg. 89-96.) 79.126.189.141 ( talk) 10:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
We could also use this quote: Atanas Djolev, Macedonian IMRO nationalist from the Strumica area and one of the many "Sandanist" sympathizers, in his "Memoirs" says: "Within the whole of Macedonia, the IMRO struggled equally against the three Balkan imperialist states, for completely autonomous and independent Macedonia... The liquidation of the "Sandanists" meant a kind of an end of this Macedonian nationalistic struggle, and the Organization was usurped by the bulgarophile servants… Our Macedonian revolutionists, amongst whom I was something like an ordinary soldier of Macedonia, struggled for Macedonia’s national liberation, above all. We could not wait our Macedonian brothers in Aegean Macedonia to become "Greeks", those in the Serbian-occupied part to become "Serbians" and the Pirin Macedonians to become "Bulgarians". The Macedonians then, nationally were enslaved by the three Balkan countries. It was important to us to be free to call ourselves Macedonians, and to speak and write on our native Macedonian language. Here, I want to point out that the history of the Macedonian people from 50 years ago must be seen as continuum of the period before 1941. It must be understood by the future generations of Macedonians that their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers struggled for the same ideal. There were no differences between the 1903 and 1941, they had the same dreams." ( Атанас Џолев – „Спомени”, „Премрежињата на македонското револуционерно движење - Спомени“, Скопје, 2006 г, стр. 223, 235-236) 79.126.189.141 ( talk) 10:56, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
StanProg, why are you lying again? The third reference in the article clearly says: See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208. And the text there contradicts with what the reference says. 79.126.227.91 ( talk) 20:03, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Please, stop adding fringe view primary sources and fiction literature as reiable references. Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. In the case that the views are fringe and that the fringe views are not a central item of historiographical debate, the fringe content should be relegated to its own article entirely, discussing the dismissal of the views as fringe views by the scholarly public. 212.5.158.63 ( talk) 20:26, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Yane (Jane) Sandanski was a Macedonian nationalist who fought for an independent Macedonian nation state. He fought against the Bulgarian nationalism, against greater Bulgarian nation. All sources confirm that.
Sandanski was born in the Macedonian-populated village of Vlahi near Kresna, Pirin Macedonia, on May 28, 1872. In 1879 his family moved to Dupnitsa, Bulgaria. Sandanski spent 16 years in the Bulgarian semi-independent state. He got his education there. He got his military education there as well, but he never became a Bulgarian nationalist, and he never acted like one.
Let’s see the facts. According to his very close and loyal friend Todor Panitsa, Sandanski was an Apostle of the Macedonian nation.
In 1907, Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed that Sandanski considered Bulgaria to be a foreign, hostile force, a synonym of what he called “Bulgarian imperialism”, and, according to him, the Macedonians had to emancipate themselves as a self-determining people.
In 1908, during the Young Turk Revolution, Sandanski called his people and his compatriots, to discard the propaganda of the Bulgaria authorities in order to live together in a peaceful way with the Turkish people.
Later (1912–1913) Sandanski and his faction actively supported the Bulgarian army in the Balkan wars, initially fighting for Bulgaria, but with the idea, that their duty is to fight for autonomous, and later – independent Macedonia.
Unfortunately, on a banquet organized by General Georgi Todorov, when Sandanski tried to make a toast for the autonomy of Macedonia, the Bulgarian officers pulled their swords out and made it clear to him that their struggle is for full annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria. Sandanski had no power to protest against it, so his tactical struggle continued until his murder, about 3 years later. After the Balkan wars, the Bulgarian government gave him amnesty for all of his illegal activities, but he knew he was still being followed. He knew that the Bulgarian authorities were aware and afraid of his Macedonian national-separatist ideals.
Todor Panitsa, again: During the war, the IMRO had a practical autonomy of the Pirin Macedonia, its completely own regime. Our goal was autonomy of the entire Macedonia, and then make it an independent state. That was the ideal of our Macedonian national hero Sandanski.
Todor Aleksandrov called the “Sandanists” traitors to the Bulgarian nation, because “they’ve always claimed, and they still claim that Macedonia should become an independent state, that it’s a separate land and the Macedonians are a separate nation with its own multi-centennial history”. (Zoran Todorovski: "Everything for Macedonia - Monography of Todor Aleksandrov", Tsocho Bilyarski: Truth about the autonomy of Macedonia, see the letter here)
On the other hand, some Bulgarian historians have also confirmed that “’’’Sandanski's activities produced Macedonian nationalism’’’. (Стоян Г. Бояджиев: Истинският лик на Яне Сандански, София, 1994, с. 21.)
“Sandanski was trouble for Bulgaria, he and his followers inflamed the Macedonian population against Bulgaria and the Exarchate.” (Iliya Paskov, “Atanas Shopov’s Diary,” Sofia, 1995, pg. 113.) Bobi987 Ivanov ( talk) 00:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed:
— "Yane had a theory that, it's not pleasant neither for the Macedonian population nor for Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification, and those who disagree with that theory have sold themselves to the Bulgarian government. He says, everyone in Macedonia, or outside, who propagates liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be death enemy to the IMRO, just like the Serbian and Greek agitations and bands. He claimed and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors."" (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)
His very close and loyal friend Todor Panitsa said:
Here's the changed that have been removed: [2]
There are six sources provided in support of the thesis that Silyanov described Sandanski as Bulgarian like all other Macedonian revolutionaries. Yes, he described him as a traitor to the Bulgarian national interests, but as Bulgarian revolutionary. Also Silyanov did not use for anyone the description ethnic Macedonian. I see that with these allegations disagrees only one editor, unlike others, but he does not open a discussion to a consensus but an useless edit war. How many sources do you need, my friend? 78.159.147.70 ( talk) 04:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
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Jingiby, you keep deleting my positive contributions even thought I back them with PRIMARY sources. I have secondary sources as well to make my points stronger but primary are always stronger. It is not "original research" . You have no right to delete my contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:35, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
It is not "original research" it is called primary documentation and it is 1000 times more reliable than books written by probulgarian or bulgarian "academics" . Stop vandalising my contributions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
User:Тутуноберач, please stop using primary sources that were discussed many times above. A lot of secondary reliable sources confirm the story of the stable version. Thanks. Jingiby ( talk) 20:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
jingiby you are the only manipulator here how can PRIMARY SOURCES be less reliable than books writtens recently?? In contrast with you at least i did not delete your POV — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:51, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Jingiby how in your right mind could you possibly support that PRIMARY SOURCES by EYE WITNESSES of that era are not reliable sources???? You have no tight whatsoever to delete them — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:53, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
This part "Primary sources indicate that Yane Sandaski was an outspoken Macedonian nationalist who, fought for a "Macedonia for the Macedonians, and not a Bulgarian Macedonia." is absolutely original research - the article is a primary source and interpreted by User:Тутуноберач to his convenience, becaue the article actually finishes that there should not be division between Bulgarians, Greeks or Vlachs in Macedonia because they are all slaves. The article by Sandanski is taken out of context and its partial citation is misleading original research at best.-- Алиса Селезньова ( talk) 20:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
No this is not taken out of context! This is what the article states WORD FOR WORD! You are the person making their own interpretation of things clearly stated!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
You are manipulating the text. I just cite what he SAYS. You get carried on and on and try to figure out what he MEANT I disagree with your interpretation! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
It is so immoral to manipulate a PRIMARY ORIGINAL DOCUMENT. Facts dont care about your feelings! He said he does not want a bulgarian macedonia. Not that initially he does not want to rely on bulgaria. That's a FALSIFICATION!!!!! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Не българска Македония желаемъ ние, а Македония за македонцитѣ He says it 100% clearly. You have no right to falsify an original document to fit your agenda. Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Do as you wish but you have no right to falsify what he said Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Great, but still it gives you no justification to falsify his phrase — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 21:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I said it : YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FALSIFY THE ORIGINAL QUOTE TO FIT YOUR AGENDA!!!!! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
You have the right to add whatever you want yes but do not falsify an original quote Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
No you do not quote the source correctly you MANIPULATE it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
If you want to add something over what I wrote do it just not manipulate and original document. He said " WE DONT WANT A BULGARIAN MACEDONIA" clear! you cannot change that!!! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Primary sources are always more reliable than secondary interpretations Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The difference of ethics between me and you is that i did not delete your contribution and source nor did i try to falsify it but you did it with mine several times. Add whatever you want just dont falsify original sources. Thank you Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Not a non expert but a person who met and discussed with sandansky... Primary sources are always stronger. In every university every professor will tell you this. Books written by Bulgarian and probulgarian "academics" are NOT objective on macedonia. It's not MY interpretation. I dont make any interpretations whatsoever. I just cite the document — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
No, no , no, you did not do this. You did not ADD anything, you DELETED and MANIPULATED the original document. Also who is more expert that a person who met and discussed with Yane??? Тутуноберач ( talk) 22:01, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
no not politicians with fringe theories but politicians who met and discussed with yane Тутуноберач ( talk) 22:06, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Per WP:PRIMARY, we can include primary sources so long as we don't make our own interpretations from them. So, taking one of the sources that Тутуноберач provided, we can for simply say that Sandanski once stated that "the Macedonians, all of them are neither Bulgarians, Greeks nor Vlachs, but a distinct ethnicity". This could probably go in the Legacy section, or we could have a subsection somewhere stating some of his views. And we can work the other sources similarly. -- Local hero talk 15:45, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
To weight different views and structure an article so as to avoid original research and synthesis the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used.
To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:
Surveying these documents should provide you with an understanding of the current scholarly consensus, or the multiple scholarly consensuses held. Views lying outside of these discussions should be considered as non-scholarly opinions and weighted as such; they should generally be relegated to sections titled "Fringe views." or the like. In the case that the views are fringe and that the fringe views are not a central item of historiographical debate, the fringe content should be relegated to its own article entirely, discussing the dismissal of the views as fringe views by the scholarly public. None of the above primary sources meet the above criteria. Not to mention that they are interpreted absolutely tensely and are presented selectively, even some of them are unreliable. Those that are reliable are interpreted quite differently in the secondary sources. I ask these attacks on groups of newly registered users and the new IP-s, behind which there is probably a network with dubious intentions, to adhere to the rules listed above, except for section called "Fringe and parahistorical views." Jingiby ( talk) 09:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
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Teresa Carpenter provides a statement of Yane Sandanski’s said to Miss Stone in 1901, that in his band “there’s a mixture of nationalities: Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, a Jew etc.” This information is taken from the Memoirs of Katerina Tsilka, the other hostage in the Miss Stone Affair. (source: Тегеѕа Сагреntег, The Miss Stone Affair, рg. 40, 2003.) Teresa Carpenter is a Pulitzer winning author and one of the most prominent Miss Ellen Stone’s biographers. Speaking of Sandanski’s fellow highwaymen of many nationalities, Miss Stone herself noticed in her Memoirs, that the leader was a Macedonian pillar. (Miss Ellen Stone, ”Six months among brigands,” McClure’s Magazine, may 1902, pg. 13-14.)
The Greek pro-fascist politician and journalist Eleftherios Stavridis also says that Sandanski claimed that the Macedonians, all of them are neither Bulgarians, Greeks nor Vlachs, but a distinct ethnicity, that the Macedonian population are Macedonians only, pure descendants of the people of Alexander the Great and Philip II of Macedonia, who also weren't Greeks, but their enemies, that subdued them."'
PRIMARY SOURCE: ” Τα Παρασκηνια του ΚΚΕ” (Ελευθέριος Σταυρίδης), Athens, Greece, 1953, p. 213. ;
SECONDARY ACADEMIC SOURCES: PhD. Dimitar Ljorovski, Yane Sandanski – an apostle of the Macedonian national idea, “Macedonian Spark,” 11. XI 2011. ; PhD. Dimitar Ljorovski, “Macedonia and Greece on the Balkans,” INI, Skopje, 2014, p. 101-104.)
Iordan666 ( talk) 22:39, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
I found this claim incorrect: “the idea of Macedonian autonomy was strictly political and did not imply a secession from Bulgarian ethnicity.” The secondary source doesn’t say that about the Sandanists, and many other sources dispute it. If I’m wrong, please show me the citation from the secondary source. Iordan666 ( talk) 12:19, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
Please stop adding "Macedonian revolutionaries" cat when the person is clearly not ethnic Macedonian. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Do the views of Sandanski himself count? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx ( talk • contribs) 16:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
His views can be illustrated by his recorded quotes. You say he was Macedonian as in ethnic Macedonian basing this on the fact that he was seeking an independent Macedonia (or "free Bulgarian Macedonia" in his own words), that does not equate with him being ethnic Macedonian. I'm surprised things as basic as this need explaining. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx ( talk • contribs) 16:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC) ]
inkubisse, you´re crazy!!!!!i´m from petrich,from pirin macdonia.i have lived 5 years in blagoevgrad.there is no such thing like ethnic macedonians in bulgaria!!!open your eyes! we are bulgarians,we say that we com from macedonia as a region.we are not opressed,we can speakour dialect whenever we want,sing our songs, etc. by the way in about every second town or village in the region there are other dialect chracteristics!!!! read some foreign press —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.32.131 ( talk) 14:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Pravilnik-sandanski.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 20:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
very doubtful references. :) :) :) anybody could have written these articles from the "promacedonia.org"-site. is there a prove that he declared himself Bulgarian? if not, the "references" should be not listed.
"published in the "Narodnay volya newspaper in 1909". show it! otherwise that link should be taken out, too. Cukiger ( talk) 04:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not see any images from any "narodna volya newspaper".. not under reference 1 or 2 where it should probably be. these references are so ridiculous. Cukiger ( talk) 05:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
why isnt his name written in cyrillic? either macedonian or bulgarian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.207.72.93 ( talk) 13:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Please, stop vandalizing the article. Jingby ( talk) 08:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
In this reference ("Bulgaria was clearly treated by the Serres activists as a foreign, hostile force and Sandanski condemned what he called the Bulgarian imperialism. According to him, the Macedonians (incl. all ethnicities) had to emancipate themselves as a self-determining people(Siljanov, Ibid. 498).") It doesn't say (incl. all ethnicities), that's added by the wiki editor. It's about Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, who witnessed:
— "Yanе had a theory that the Macedonian question should not be regarded as a part of the Bulgarian national ideals… He clearly stated that those who propagate "Bulgarian national unification" in Macedonia are death-enemies of IMRO, just like the Greek and the Serbian national-chauvinistic agitators. Furthermore, he disseminated the belief that the masses are an independent, distinctive people, and they have to believe in it. They mustn't rely on any of the alien forces." (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943; II фототипно изд. "Наука и Изкуство", София, 1983), с. 498.)
85.30.109.189 ( talk) 21:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Also, there was a false reference about Deliradev speaking about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia (See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.). In the source there's no such a statement of Deliradev. He even say that all the Macedonians and the Bulgarians should oppose the Bulgarian chauvinist agenda, in the very same source. If needed, I'll find a way to provide the pages. 79.126.169.242 ( talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
— "Yanе had a theory that the Macedonian question should not be regarded as a part of the Bulgarian national ideals… He clearly stated that those who propagate "Bulgarian national unification" in Macedonia are death-enemies of IMRO, just like the Greek and the Serbian agitators. Furthermore, he disseminated the belief that the masses are an independent, distinctive people, and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces." (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943; II фототипно изд. "Наука и Изкуство", София, 1983), с. 498.)
79.126.169.242 ( talk) 14:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Someone's accused me for vandalism on this article. Can he or she be more specific? 85.30.127.197 ( talk) 18:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
There was a false reference about Deliradev speaking about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia (See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.). Someone returned it back. In the source there's no such statement of Deliradev. He even say that all the Macedonians and the Bulgarians should oppose the Bulgarian chauvinist agenda, in the very same source. If needed, a way to provide the pages will be found. 79.126.188.253 ( talk) 17:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed:
— "Yane had a theory that, it's not pleasant neither for the Macedonian population nor for Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification, and those who disagree with that theory have sold themselves to the Bulgarian government. He says, everyone in Macedonia, or outside, who propagates liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be death enemy to the IMRO, just like the Serbian and Greek agitations and bands. He claimed and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors."" (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)
Pavel Deliradev, a well known Bulgarian publicist and theoretic, but also a co-idealist and fellow revolutionist of Sandanski's, name him as: a meritorious son of the Macedonian nation, who fought against the Bulgarian chauvinism, for a free, united and independent Macedonian state, which will have brotherly relations with all free Balkanic nations. (Pavel Deliradev's biography of Yane Sandanski, Sofia, 1946, pg. 44. and the exact page 13.)
In 1904, Sandanski’s moto was “Macedonia for the Macedonins”, and he fought against the Turks and his enemies sent by the Supreme Committee in Sofia, Bulgaria. ( a letter of the French diplomat in Constantinople, August 10, 1905 ; „Yane Sandanski about the distinctiveness of Macedonia and the Macedonians“, „Јане Сандански и македонското национално дело“, MANU, Skopje, 2007, pg. 89-96.) 79.126.189.141 ( talk) 10:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
We could also use this quote: Atanas Djolev, Macedonian IMRO nationalist from the Strumica area and one of the many "Sandanist" sympathizers, in his "Memoirs" says: "Within the whole of Macedonia, the IMRO struggled equally against the three Balkan imperialist states, for completely autonomous and independent Macedonia... The liquidation of the "Sandanists" meant a kind of an end of this Macedonian nationalistic struggle, and the Organization was usurped by the bulgarophile servants… Our Macedonian revolutionists, amongst whom I was something like an ordinary soldier of Macedonia, struggled for Macedonia’s national liberation, above all. We could not wait our Macedonian brothers in Aegean Macedonia to become "Greeks", those in the Serbian-occupied part to become "Serbians" and the Pirin Macedonians to become "Bulgarians". The Macedonians then, nationally were enslaved by the three Balkan countries. It was important to us to be free to call ourselves Macedonians, and to speak and write on our native Macedonian language. Here, I want to point out that the history of the Macedonian people from 50 years ago must be seen as continuum of the period before 1941. It must be understood by the future generations of Macedonians that their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers struggled for the same ideal. There were no differences between the 1903 and 1941, they had the same dreams." ( Атанас Џолев – „Спомени”, „Премрежињата на македонското револуционерно движење - Спомени“, Скопје, 2006 г, стр. 223, 235-236) 79.126.189.141 ( talk) 10:56, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
StanProg, why are you lying again? The third reference in the article clearly says: See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208. And the text there contradicts with what the reference says. 79.126.227.91 ( talk) 20:03, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Please, stop adding fringe view primary sources and fiction literature as reiable references. Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. In the case that the views are fringe and that the fringe views are not a central item of historiographical debate, the fringe content should be relegated to its own article entirely, discussing the dismissal of the views as fringe views by the scholarly public. 212.5.158.63 ( talk) 20:26, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Yane (Jane) Sandanski was a Macedonian nationalist who fought for an independent Macedonian nation state. He fought against the Bulgarian nationalism, against greater Bulgarian nation. All sources confirm that.
Sandanski was born in the Macedonian-populated village of Vlahi near Kresna, Pirin Macedonia, on May 28, 1872. In 1879 his family moved to Dupnitsa, Bulgaria. Sandanski spent 16 years in the Bulgarian semi-independent state. He got his education there. He got his military education there as well, but he never became a Bulgarian nationalist, and he never acted like one.
Let’s see the facts. According to his very close and loyal friend Todor Panitsa, Sandanski was an Apostle of the Macedonian nation.
In 1907, Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed that Sandanski considered Bulgaria to be a foreign, hostile force, a synonym of what he called “Bulgarian imperialism”, and, according to him, the Macedonians had to emancipate themselves as a self-determining people.
In 1908, during the Young Turk Revolution, Sandanski called his people and his compatriots, to discard the propaganda of the Bulgaria authorities in order to live together in a peaceful way with the Turkish people.
Later (1912–1913) Sandanski and his faction actively supported the Bulgarian army in the Balkan wars, initially fighting for Bulgaria, but with the idea, that their duty is to fight for autonomous, and later – independent Macedonia.
Unfortunately, on a banquet organized by General Georgi Todorov, when Sandanski tried to make a toast for the autonomy of Macedonia, the Bulgarian officers pulled their swords out and made it clear to him that their struggle is for full annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria. Sandanski had no power to protest against it, so his tactical struggle continued until his murder, about 3 years later. After the Balkan wars, the Bulgarian government gave him amnesty for all of his illegal activities, but he knew he was still being followed. He knew that the Bulgarian authorities were aware and afraid of his Macedonian national-separatist ideals.
Todor Panitsa, again: During the war, the IMRO had a practical autonomy of the Pirin Macedonia, its completely own regime. Our goal was autonomy of the entire Macedonia, and then make it an independent state. That was the ideal of our Macedonian national hero Sandanski.
Todor Aleksandrov called the “Sandanists” traitors to the Bulgarian nation, because “they’ve always claimed, and they still claim that Macedonia should become an independent state, that it’s a separate land and the Macedonians are a separate nation with its own multi-centennial history”. (Zoran Todorovski: "Everything for Macedonia - Monography of Todor Aleksandrov", Tsocho Bilyarski: Truth about the autonomy of Macedonia, see the letter here)
On the other hand, some Bulgarian historians have also confirmed that “’’’Sandanski's activities produced Macedonian nationalism’’’. (Стоян Г. Бояджиев: Истинският лик на Яне Сандански, София, 1994, с. 21.)
“Sandanski was trouble for Bulgaria, he and his followers inflamed the Macedonian population against Bulgaria and the Exarchate.” (Iliya Paskov, “Atanas Shopov’s Diary,” Sofia, 1995, pg. 113.) Bobi987 Ivanov ( talk) 00:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed:
— "Yane had a theory that, it's not pleasant neither for the Macedonian population nor for Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification, and those who disagree with that theory have sold themselves to the Bulgarian government. He says, everyone in Macedonia, or outside, who propagates liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be death enemy to the IMRO, just like the Serbian and Greek agitations and bands. He claimed and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors."" (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)
His very close and loyal friend Todor Panitsa said:
Here's the changed that have been removed: [2]
There are six sources provided in support of the thesis that Silyanov described Sandanski as Bulgarian like all other Macedonian revolutionaries. Yes, he described him as a traitor to the Bulgarian national interests, but as Bulgarian revolutionary. Also Silyanov did not use for anyone the description ethnic Macedonian. I see that with these allegations disagrees only one editor, unlike others, but he does not open a discussion to a consensus but an useless edit war. How many sources do you need, my friend? 78.159.147.70 ( talk) 04:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
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Jingiby, you keep deleting my positive contributions even thought I back them with PRIMARY sources. I have secondary sources as well to make my points stronger but primary are always stronger. It is not "original research" . You have no right to delete my contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:35, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
It is not "original research" it is called primary documentation and it is 1000 times more reliable than books written by probulgarian or bulgarian "academics" . Stop vandalising my contributions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
User:Тутуноберач, please stop using primary sources that were discussed many times above. A lot of secondary reliable sources confirm the story of the stable version. Thanks. Jingiby ( talk) 20:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
jingiby you are the only manipulator here how can PRIMARY SOURCES be less reliable than books writtens recently?? In contrast with you at least i did not delete your POV — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:51, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Jingiby how in your right mind could you possibly support that PRIMARY SOURCES by EYE WITNESSES of that era are not reliable sources???? You have no tight whatsoever to delete them — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:53, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
This part "Primary sources indicate that Yane Sandaski was an outspoken Macedonian nationalist who, fought for a "Macedonia for the Macedonians, and not a Bulgarian Macedonia." is absolutely original research - the article is a primary source and interpreted by User:Тутуноберач to his convenience, becaue the article actually finishes that there should not be division between Bulgarians, Greeks or Vlachs in Macedonia because they are all slaves. The article by Sandanski is taken out of context and its partial citation is misleading original research at best.-- Алиса Селезньова ( talk) 20:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
No this is not taken out of context! This is what the article states WORD FOR WORD! You are the person making their own interpretation of things clearly stated!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
You are manipulating the text. I just cite what he SAYS. You get carried on and on and try to figure out what he MEANT I disagree with your interpretation! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
It is so immoral to manipulate a PRIMARY ORIGINAL DOCUMENT. Facts dont care about your feelings! He said he does not want a bulgarian macedonia. Not that initially he does not want to rely on bulgaria. That's a FALSIFICATION!!!!! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Не българска Македония желаемъ ние, а Македония за македонцитѣ He says it 100% clearly. You have no right to falsify an original document to fit your agenda. Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Do as you wish but you have no right to falsify what he said Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Great, but still it gives you no justification to falsify his phrase — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 21:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I said it : YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FALSIFY THE ORIGINAL QUOTE TO FIT YOUR AGENDA!!!!! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
You have the right to add whatever you want yes but do not falsify an original quote Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
No you do not quote the source correctly you MANIPULATE it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
If you want to add something over what I wrote do it just not manipulate and original document. He said " WE DONT WANT A BULGARIAN MACEDONIA" clear! you cannot change that!!! Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Primary sources are always more reliable than secondary interpretations Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The difference of ethics between me and you is that i did not delete your contribution and source nor did i try to falsify it but you did it with mine several times. Add whatever you want just dont falsify original sources. Thank you Тутуноберач ( talk) 21:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Not a non expert but a person who met and discussed with sandansky... Primary sources are always stronger. In every university every professor will tell you this. Books written by Bulgarian and probulgarian "academics" are NOT objective on macedonia. It's not MY interpretation. I dont make any interpretations whatsoever. I just cite the document — Preceding unsigned comment added by Тутуноберач ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
No, no , no, you did not do this. You did not ADD anything, you DELETED and MANIPULATED the original document. Also who is more expert that a person who met and discussed with Yane??? Тутуноберач ( talk) 22:01, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
no not politicians with fringe theories but politicians who met and discussed with yane Тутуноберач ( talk) 22:06, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Per WP:PRIMARY, we can include primary sources so long as we don't make our own interpretations from them. So, taking one of the sources that Тутуноберач provided, we can for simply say that Sandanski once stated that "the Macedonians, all of them are neither Bulgarians, Greeks nor Vlachs, but a distinct ethnicity". This could probably go in the Legacy section, or we could have a subsection somewhere stating some of his views. And we can work the other sources similarly. -- Local hero talk 15:45, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
To weight different views and structure an article so as to avoid original research and synthesis the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used.
To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:
Surveying these documents should provide you with an understanding of the current scholarly consensus, or the multiple scholarly consensuses held. Views lying outside of these discussions should be considered as non-scholarly opinions and weighted as such; they should generally be relegated to sections titled "Fringe views." or the like. In the case that the views are fringe and that the fringe views are not a central item of historiographical debate, the fringe content should be relegated to its own article entirely, discussing the dismissal of the views as fringe views by the scholarly public. None of the above primary sources meet the above criteria. Not to mention that they are interpreted absolutely tensely and are presented selectively, even some of them are unreliable. Those that are reliable are interpreted quite differently in the secondary sources. I ask these attacks on groups of newly registered users and the new IP-s, behind which there is probably a network with dubious intentions, to adhere to the rules listed above, except for section called "Fringe and parahistorical views." Jingiby ( talk) 09:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)