This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Sitush you incorporating so derogatory comment only on the bases of one source.These comments have no relation to our topic.i will delete it tomorrow because you have not good intention.you have your own agenda.And this source is not related to our topic.you did not want yadavs kingdoms mentioning on article but you have admitting derogatory comment.your intention are very doubtful.i am not agree with you.more over for which region the source talking about.plese clear.you did not even discuss this section on talk page why are behaving like dictator of wikipedia.you are a senior contributer. Bill clinton history ( talk) 21:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The above auther is not an expert on our area.he is writing about political situation in present india.so his comment included in origion section is completely wrong.they should be deleted.Comments of Tilak Gupta which publish in a journal not at all authentic.he is not the expert of our area.and tone and context is completely politicaly motivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill clinton history ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry but I am struggling to reconcile the combination by BCH of his contributions with mine, which has created an awkwardness in the wording of the Ahir/Abhira issue. Can anyone sort it out? I'm off for an hour or so. The gist is, Jaffrelot says it is a claim, I believe that Enthoven says that it is a claim, but Bill's bit seems to have it as a certainty. - Sitush ( talk) 21:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The section currently titled "Changing nature" is likely to grow quite substantially. I have half-a-dozen books open at the moment and have just had a request fulfilled at WP:RX. Ultimately, I can see this being split off from the main article but, please, can people bear with me for now as it is quite a complex subject and I need to work my way through all of the variations etc. I will try to ensure that any additions to it stand on their own merit & therefore do not unduly portray things in a distorted way. - Sitush ( talk) 08:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
I have removed a lot of the recent additions by BCH. The architectural stuff is out there on the web, including on a United Nations World Heritage site, and as such is copyright violation. The content regarding ancient dynasties etc has already been removed once recently from this articles because the main source specifically says that those people had little to do with the Yadavs and that Yadav claims to genealogical connection cannot be believed.
I am aware that removing copyvios does not impinge on the three revert thing, but I am disappointed to see this going on. I am also disappointed to see that Bill has removed some validly cited information and restored some info (about the various castes forming a part of the community) which was taken out precisely because the sources Bill used did not in fact substantiate the statements been made. There are one or two additional sources this time, so I guess that I will have to wade through them all yet again. Unfortunately, if I do that then I will go over 3RR - either someone else will have to check or it will have to wait. - Sitush ( talk) 15:21, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
2. The culture and civilisation of ancient India in historical outline, Damodar Dharmanand Kosambi, i have physical copy of this book if you want i can mail you relevant page scan. Bill clinton history ( talk) 12:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
1.Shivaji, the great Maratha By H. S. Sardesai,URL(( http://books.google.co.in/books?id=0QjwENC2V_IC&pg=PA118&dq=yadavs+of+devgiri&hl=en&ei=719OTpDJF8zOrQfbjvmVAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=yadavs%20of%20devgiri&f=false)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill clinton history ( talk • contribs) 13:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
1.The Cambridge Shorter History of India,URL(( http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9_48AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA162&dq=yadavs+of+devgiri&hl=en&ei=rmFOTvv8FYjRrQebkdXDAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q&f=false)) 2.Generation gap, a sociological study of inter-generational conflicts By Ramaa Prasad,URL(( http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FYElqUmQttgC&pg=PA32&dq=yadavs+of+devgiri&hl=en&ei=nWROTr6NJoPtrQe48r2qAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q&f=false))
Sithush ,YOU can read in detail about yadavas of devgiri. Bill clinton history ( talk) 13:29, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Bill clinton history ( talk) 15:30, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
The "Religious seats" section, with dates in the 1000s AD and 1560 AD, appears to apply to "Yadav" in the sense of "claiming descent from Yadu"/"Yaduvanshi", not in the sense of "Yadav caste". Has anyone any linkage between this section and the Yadav caste which is the topic of this article, or can it be remove (and possible relocated to Yaduvanshi or Yadava?) MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Vaishnavism has been reinstated by Akhil.anand.hisar as being the religious belief generally followed by Yadavs. The source for this is Enthoven, and although page 24 as cited does not mention religion at all, Enthoven does indeed cover it on p. 32. My points:
Do we have something more modern, please? It needs to say that Yadavs generally follow the Vaishnava school and that this is so now, not a century ago. Somehow, I doubt that there will be such a source because there has been no caste census since 1931 and even then the definition of which castes were part of the Yadav community might be moot. Note: I am not saying that the statement is wrong but rather than there may be issues verifying it. - Sitush ( talk) 19:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
The lead ends by saying that the descent from Yadu is disputed. A new editor removed it; I re-added (in part just because it messed up the ref tags, in part because they said something irrelevant about a court), but I did want to get clarification from whoever added that--do we have a source saying that it's a disputed claim? If it's in the text, let's copy it up to the lead just to be "safe"; if it's citation 1 in the lead, lets move that cite to the end of the line. I mean, I'm assuming that Yadu's existence itself is a matter of dispute (based on what I get from reading Yadu), but a reference here would be lovely to more soundly stop removals. Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Below is something that I drafted but which is currently unsuitable for the article (weight, mainly). It may have its uses at some point.
In relation specifically to her field study of a town in Mathura in the period 1998-2000, Michelutti has said that despite being very much a minority community in that town, "I think that the Yadav community appears numerically strong and politically powerful because of its impressive organisation. It is its political activism and its reputation for aggressiveness and violence that make the community visible." Their involvement in illegalities such as extortion and protection rackets are also a "prominent" feature of their economic activity. The success of the local AIYM in yadavisation means that most of the community members see themselves as Yadav rather than, say, Ahir, and adopt the umbrella identity of Krishnavanshi Yadav rather than the older subdivisions of Yadavanishi, Nandavanshi and Goallavnashi Yadavs. Local and clan deities are being forsaken in favour of the common god of Krishna, whom they also believe to be the first politically democratic leader. Her analysis of the effects of the self-glorifying, self-promoting and self-documenting content of numerous Yadav publications, local and national, plentiful and often given away freely or sold cheaply to potential readers, leads her to the conclusion that "Amusing though such statements may appear, many informants were convinced that the Yadavs were natural vessels of 'democratic' values ... These narratives are marked by a similarity of structure, language and content, and by repetitiveness (a feature characteristic of essentialist rhetoric." She sees similarities with the wider Yadav community and notes that the speeches of Yadav leaders, such as Lalu Prasad Yadav, mirror the patterns of content and rhetoric espoused in the literature. [1]
- Sitush ( talk) 17:41, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
At some point there will definitely now have to be a fork of the caste association stuff + at least a part of the sanskritisation/yadavisation. I am still developing it and the article is becoming somewhat WP:UNDUE.
I was surprised that no such separate article already exists - could someone else please just do a quick check in case, for example, it is sitting somewhere with a slightly modified title. - Sitush ( talk) 23:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
:With the proviso that the discussion is about the conduct of
Thisthat2011 and not this article. -
Sitush (
talk) 06:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC) Now irrelevant. -
Sitush (
talk)
15:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Do we really need the list of villages in Delhi NCR. Could it not be summarised as, say, "there are numerous villages in the region that are referred to as being Yadav villages, for example X, Y, Z.citation" - Sitush ( talk) 14:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Sitush are you want to make this articles of just 50 words? Bill clinton history ( talk) 14:08, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Only supporting editor over the last month is banned as a sockpuppet. I've perused the references (which don't even cover the majority of claims) and they tend to be very passing mentions, and/or do not mentiont the term "Yadav" at all, again getting back to the Yadav-Ahir conflation issue. Removing. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 20:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
There are two templates in place which seem possibly to be inappropriate. Both templates refer to Ahirs, not the wider group of communities that makes up the Yadavs. The Kshatriya communities template is a disputed issue, and the one listing ethnic groups, social groups & tribes of the Punjab seems to be hopelessly undue weight even in the Ahir context ( Ahir appears to mention a swathe of places of origin & of current abode).
Can we not remove them both? - Sitush ( talk) 07:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I started a stub for this book, which seems historically significant and has a good amount of secondary academic coverage: The Divine Heritage of the Yadavas. Adding here due to crossover interest. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 20:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Why are the article and its talk page protected at the same time? It is against WP:PP?- MW ℳ 08:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
I protected the page yesterday. I did not realize that the talk page was protected, as it is only to be done in unusual circumstances. I have therefore unprotected the talk page, but will monitor to see if significant problems result. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 15:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
hinduism and its military ethos page 209
The books clearly states that yadavas are chandravanshi khastriyas. please correct the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truefact1979 ( talk • contribs) 18:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
1. Hinduism and Its Military Ethos By R. K. Nehra Page 209 http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=hinduism+and+its+military+ethos+yadavas+chandravanshi+line&btnG=
2. The golden book of India: a genealogical and biographical dictionary of the ... By Sir Roper Lethbridge page 246
Two reliable sources mention yadavs as chandravanshi khastriyas.
Please correct the article to mention "that certain scholars agree yadavs are chandravanshi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truefact1979 ( talk • contribs) 00:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
This article needs changes and the first which needs to change is the introduction. The article needs to mention that yadavs claim they are chandravanshi khastriyas and descendant of Yadu and that some scholars agree and some dispute it. As a thumb rule the introduction has to mention important points. Please correct this as the introduction is very weak. Also the above two links can be used as reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.18.192.2 ( talk) 17:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
... why we have two pages, Yadav and Ahir? Aren't Yadav just the Ahir—milkmen and cowherds—who in the last century have taken the last name Yadav? If so, the lead should say something along the lines of, "Yadav/Ahir is a Hindu pastoral caste in UP, Bihar, ... Their varna status is the subject of dispute." I feel that all the agricultural and pastoral castes (Kurmi, Kunbi, Keoris, Yadav, Ahir) should have similar leads. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:40, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Even till 1400 AD some of the dynasties in India called themselves Yadavs ( Suena yadavs of Devagiri ). This article needs corrections. The introduction is wrong. Unneccary stuff has been put in.
. Hinduism and Its Military Ethos By R. K. Nehra Page 209 http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=hinduism+and+its+military+ethos+yadavas+chandravanshi+line&btnG=
2. The golden book of India: a genealogical and biographical dictionary of the ... By Sir Roper Lethbridge page 246
Two reliable sources mention yadavs as chandravanshi khastriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truefact1979 ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
various scholars have agreeded that yadavs are chandravanshi khastriyas and some have not.
The following link can be used to verify that yadavs are khastriyas.
http://www.sishri.org/velir.html ( This website clearly mentions in some parts of india Yadavs are khastriyas ).
http://storyofkannada.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-seuna-dynasty.html
Also till 1400 AD there were dynasties which claimed that they are yadavs. The descendants of this dynasties still would be living in India. Also the article mentions that only from 19th century yadavs are trying to raise their status. Its wrong. In 1400 AD a dyansty claimed they are yadavs ( chandravanshi ). These people cannot disappear just like that.
proof some scholars claim yadavs as khastriyas.
book : We and our administration By K. C. Brahmachary page 388 many scholars agree yadavs as khastriyas and some scholars dont.
I request kindly to correct the introduction. please dont neglect these valuable points. So far there is like three books which mention yadavs as khastriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.174.210 ( talk) 02:30, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
What ever proof is provided is simply being ignored. So many references have been provided. its being ignored. The introduction needs changes. The article needs correction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.174.210 ( talk) 03:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
s
Truefact has now been indef blocked & the above IP seems certain to be another of the same. I am not even bothering replying to this sort of sock-generated stuff any further. It wouldn't be so bad if the suggestions were productive, but they rarely are. MW, this is not the first time that you have weighed in to support an obvious sock, and have done so without really adding anything positive - nitpicking about policy etc but never actually providing any source-based argument is pretty pointless in these situations. Is there any chance that you might consider the contribution history etc in future before prolonging all of our agony? I say this here because you will not let me explain the reasoning on your talk page. - Sitush ( talk) 15:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Since the article and talk page can't be protected simultaneously, all we can do is to simply remove every single post that is nothing more than ranting and raving about the bias of editors here. Anyone who wants to present reliable sources and have polite, collegial discussions about the article is welcome to do so (except, of course, for socks of blocked or banned editors). Anyone with an actual behavioral complaint is invited to open a thread at WP:ANI; be prepared to support such a complaint. Qwyrxian ( talk) 12:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
IPs. Please do not use this page for soapboxing. Please also do not make personal attacks. This page is meant for discussing improvements in the article only. If you have problem with some material in the article, please note them on this page and discuss them. Please try to explain why you think it is problematic, and what could be done to fix it. There are lots of points which can be discussed. If you want some new material to be added, you can discuss that too. You can try to discuss the reliability of the publisher and author to make your case. All material in article space is controlled by WP:DUE. You can also discuss what is/is not "due" content for this article. Much of this article may be against WP:DUE in my opinion. You too can give your opinion on that. If you want some new material to be added, you can look through googlebooks and googlescholar too. There are thousands of sources and things which you can discuss and try to improve this article. Please do not indulge in soapboxing and please do not make personal attacks. MW ℳ 13:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I have tagged NPOV. The article seems to be a massive collection of malicious literatures, with removal of many sourced edits. Ikon No-Blast 07:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
to sell their books. Please don't try to threaten block,I know some of the editors on this page are Admin Trolls. Building POV through admin power would only diminish the credibility of this wikipedia. Ikon No-Blast 07:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict) As I said, there are articles for those subjects. A short statement and a link to them would suffice. This is how it was heading until the recent influx of socks etc, the problem being that there is in fact academic uncertainty regarding the connection (hence, the academics often use the word "claim" rather than, for example, "are"). This has all been discussed at length recently and I urge you to read what was said.
The addition of poorly cited content does not aid your case. I do not know to which "masters" you are referring, and what the ancient Hindu scriptures may say is largely irrelevant to a Wikipedia article about anything but the scriptures themselves. - Sitush ( talk) 10:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Dear Ikonoblast, please assume good faith. It's not clear what exactly what you want, but from your comments and edits, it seems that you want this article to focus on your Ahir caste.
Please read the earlier discussions: your Ahir caste does not have the monopoly over the term "Yadav". So, please stop hijacking this article and filling it with content about Ahirs -- there is a separate article about the Ahirs. The term Yadav, as used in modern North Indian states (esp. Bihar and UP), is synonymous with Ahir. But, North India is not the center of the the universe, and this is not true in all the contexts.
Your sources "Bhandarkar, ghurye, rao, smith etc" are not being removed because others have a personal agenda. They're being removed because they are about the ancient Yadavas, Abhira Kingdom or Ahirs and belong to those articles. This has been discussed umpteen times -- please go through the archives and edit summaries. There are separate articles for a reason:
The content and the sources that you'd adding (such as 1, 2) is about the ancient Yadavas. There is a separate article for this topic -- please add it to Yadava or Abhira Kingdom. If you want to write a section about the Ahirs (such as James Tod calling them a royal race), please add it to the article on Ahirs.
You've not given any proof of "massive collection of malicious literatures" for tagging the article as POV, but you yourself are inserting pseudohistorical content like "Krishna is the Hinduised form of Jesus Christ".
Writing 1 or 2 sentences about the ancient Yadava tribe or the Ahirs in this article is OK. But, you're adding text which belongs to other articles. This is unnecessary duplication at best and shameless ethnic glorification at worst.
You're accusing others of being "malicious" or "trolls", while in fact, you're the only one here who's being uncivil. You've been blocked earlier for incivility and bad-faith edits earlier -- please learn to indulge in rational, cool-headed discussions. utcursch | talk 11:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Let's go through your sources one by one:
There are multiple sources in the article which support the claim that the term "Yadav" covers many castes. But none of your sources support the claim that all the castes called Yadav are same as the Ahirs and the ancient dynasties.
Nobody is claiming your content and sources are wrong. They simply do not belong to this article. Instead of discussing things rationally, you're simply pushing your caste glorification agenda. utcursch | talk 12:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
utcursch and sitush pls stop pointing out names of others for the credibility of their work ... ikonoblast and mongowong have good done excellent work in the past.while sitush and co have had issue with someone or other because what they are displaying is autocracy . you mentioned that modern yadavs are not ancient yadavs than who are they??? where 15 millions of yadav came suddenly in to being??? please do let me know if you do have proof of allother caste that they are same as thne ancient caste which they claim there origination from .and i dont understand that why on GOD'S green earth are u so much intrested in yadav caste,what about other caste??? are the wiki info displayed over there is correct...and if you say that we are slowly gradually workin on every other caste than i dont see thats true because i havnt seen any work in other caste page...the yadav page have already seen the height of vandalism..the page gives the worst of information about the proud yadav community.i cant understand the motive of you guys??? and now when ikon blast and momgowong are trying to work on the purification of the page you are arguing with them..pls refrain from such behaviour.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 14:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
matthew vanitas@ have you ever been to india??? are you familiar with the culture of india?? you are sounding so cynical and verbose you are displaying show ur chutzpah in handling tacky situation...please take few days rest from so called generic work you are involved in..thnks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.56.13.10 ( talk) 18:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Bill clinton history, let's try to resolve this once and for all. Please can you list below your five "best" sources which state that the modern day Yadavs are the same community as were once known as Yadavas. The usual reliable sources stipulations apply. Should it happen that any of your five are thought to be unreliable then you can take which ever one(s) are so thought to the reliable sources noticeboard for third party opinion. To save you some effort, I will consider as unreliable any source that it written by a member of the Yadav community - this should not present problems for you if the situation is as clear-cut as you believe, - Sitush ( talk) 21:18, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Sitush you incorporating so derogatory comment only on the bases of one source.These comments have no relation to our topic.i will delete it tomorrow because you have not good intention.you have your own agenda.And this source is not related to our topic.you did not want yadavs kingdoms mentioning on article but you have admitting derogatory comment.your intention are very doubtful.i am not agree with you.more over for which region the source talking about.plese clear.you did not even discuss this section on talk page why are behaving like dictator of wikipedia.you are a senior contributer. Bill clinton history ( talk) 21:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The above auther is not an expert on our area.he is writing about political situation in present india.so his comment included in origion section is completely wrong.they should be deleted.Comments of Tilak Gupta which publish in a journal not at all authentic.he is not the expert of our area.and tone and context is completely politicaly motivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill clinton history ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry but I am struggling to reconcile the combination by BCH of his contributions with mine, which has created an awkwardness in the wording of the Ahir/Abhira issue. Can anyone sort it out? I'm off for an hour or so. The gist is, Jaffrelot says it is a claim, I believe that Enthoven says that it is a claim, but Bill's bit seems to have it as a certainty. - Sitush ( talk) 21:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The section currently titled "Changing nature" is likely to grow quite substantially. I have half-a-dozen books open at the moment and have just had a request fulfilled at WP:RX. Ultimately, I can see this being split off from the main article but, please, can people bear with me for now as it is quite a complex subject and I need to work my way through all of the variations etc. I will try to ensure that any additions to it stand on their own merit & therefore do not unduly portray things in a distorted way. - Sitush ( talk) 08:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
I have removed a lot of the recent additions by BCH. The architectural stuff is out there on the web, including on a United Nations World Heritage site, and as such is copyright violation. The content regarding ancient dynasties etc has already been removed once recently from this articles because the main source specifically says that those people had little to do with the Yadavs and that Yadav claims to genealogical connection cannot be believed.
I am aware that removing copyvios does not impinge on the three revert thing, but I am disappointed to see this going on. I am also disappointed to see that Bill has removed some validly cited information and restored some info (about the various castes forming a part of the community) which was taken out precisely because the sources Bill used did not in fact substantiate the statements been made. There are one or two additional sources this time, so I guess that I will have to wade through them all yet again. Unfortunately, if I do that then I will go over 3RR - either someone else will have to check or it will have to wait. - Sitush ( talk) 15:21, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
2. The culture and civilisation of ancient India in historical outline, Damodar Dharmanand Kosambi, i have physical copy of this book if you want i can mail you relevant page scan. Bill clinton history ( talk) 12:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
1.Shivaji, the great Maratha By H. S. Sardesai,URL(( http://books.google.co.in/books?id=0QjwENC2V_IC&pg=PA118&dq=yadavs+of+devgiri&hl=en&ei=719OTpDJF8zOrQfbjvmVAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=yadavs%20of%20devgiri&f=false)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill clinton history ( talk • contribs) 13:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
1.The Cambridge Shorter History of India,URL(( http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9_48AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA162&dq=yadavs+of+devgiri&hl=en&ei=rmFOTvv8FYjRrQebkdXDAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q&f=false)) 2.Generation gap, a sociological study of inter-generational conflicts By Ramaa Prasad,URL(( http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FYElqUmQttgC&pg=PA32&dq=yadavs+of+devgiri&hl=en&ei=nWROTr6NJoPtrQe48r2qAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q&f=false))
Sithush ,YOU can read in detail about yadavas of devgiri. Bill clinton history ( talk) 13:29, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Bill clinton history ( talk) 15:30, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
The "Religious seats" section, with dates in the 1000s AD and 1560 AD, appears to apply to "Yadav" in the sense of "claiming descent from Yadu"/"Yaduvanshi", not in the sense of "Yadav caste". Has anyone any linkage between this section and the Yadav caste which is the topic of this article, or can it be remove (and possible relocated to Yaduvanshi or Yadava?) MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Vaishnavism has been reinstated by Akhil.anand.hisar as being the religious belief generally followed by Yadavs. The source for this is Enthoven, and although page 24 as cited does not mention religion at all, Enthoven does indeed cover it on p. 32. My points:
Do we have something more modern, please? It needs to say that Yadavs generally follow the Vaishnava school and that this is so now, not a century ago. Somehow, I doubt that there will be such a source because there has been no caste census since 1931 and even then the definition of which castes were part of the Yadav community might be moot. Note: I am not saying that the statement is wrong but rather than there may be issues verifying it. - Sitush ( talk) 19:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
The lead ends by saying that the descent from Yadu is disputed. A new editor removed it; I re-added (in part just because it messed up the ref tags, in part because they said something irrelevant about a court), but I did want to get clarification from whoever added that--do we have a source saying that it's a disputed claim? If it's in the text, let's copy it up to the lead just to be "safe"; if it's citation 1 in the lead, lets move that cite to the end of the line. I mean, I'm assuming that Yadu's existence itself is a matter of dispute (based on what I get from reading Yadu), but a reference here would be lovely to more soundly stop removals. Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Below is something that I drafted but which is currently unsuitable for the article (weight, mainly). It may have its uses at some point.
In relation specifically to her field study of a town in Mathura in the period 1998-2000, Michelutti has said that despite being very much a minority community in that town, "I think that the Yadav community appears numerically strong and politically powerful because of its impressive organisation. It is its political activism and its reputation for aggressiveness and violence that make the community visible." Their involvement in illegalities such as extortion and protection rackets are also a "prominent" feature of their economic activity. The success of the local AIYM in yadavisation means that most of the community members see themselves as Yadav rather than, say, Ahir, and adopt the umbrella identity of Krishnavanshi Yadav rather than the older subdivisions of Yadavanishi, Nandavanshi and Goallavnashi Yadavs. Local and clan deities are being forsaken in favour of the common god of Krishna, whom they also believe to be the first politically democratic leader. Her analysis of the effects of the self-glorifying, self-promoting and self-documenting content of numerous Yadav publications, local and national, plentiful and often given away freely or sold cheaply to potential readers, leads her to the conclusion that "Amusing though such statements may appear, many informants were convinced that the Yadavs were natural vessels of 'democratic' values ... These narratives are marked by a similarity of structure, language and content, and by repetitiveness (a feature characteristic of essentialist rhetoric." She sees similarities with the wider Yadav community and notes that the speeches of Yadav leaders, such as Lalu Prasad Yadav, mirror the patterns of content and rhetoric espoused in the literature. [1]
- Sitush ( talk) 17:41, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
At some point there will definitely now have to be a fork of the caste association stuff + at least a part of the sanskritisation/yadavisation. I am still developing it and the article is becoming somewhat WP:UNDUE.
I was surprised that no such separate article already exists - could someone else please just do a quick check in case, for example, it is sitting somewhere with a slightly modified title. - Sitush ( talk) 23:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
:With the proviso that the discussion is about the conduct of
Thisthat2011 and not this article. -
Sitush (
talk) 06:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC) Now irrelevant. -
Sitush (
talk)
15:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Do we really need the list of villages in Delhi NCR. Could it not be summarised as, say, "there are numerous villages in the region that are referred to as being Yadav villages, for example X, Y, Z.citation" - Sitush ( talk) 14:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Sitush are you want to make this articles of just 50 words? Bill clinton history ( talk) 14:08, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Only supporting editor over the last month is banned as a sockpuppet. I've perused the references (which don't even cover the majority of claims) and they tend to be very passing mentions, and/or do not mentiont the term "Yadav" at all, again getting back to the Yadav-Ahir conflation issue. Removing. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 20:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
There are two templates in place which seem possibly to be inappropriate. Both templates refer to Ahirs, not the wider group of communities that makes up the Yadavs. The Kshatriya communities template is a disputed issue, and the one listing ethnic groups, social groups & tribes of the Punjab seems to be hopelessly undue weight even in the Ahir context ( Ahir appears to mention a swathe of places of origin & of current abode).
Can we not remove them both? - Sitush ( talk) 07:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I started a stub for this book, which seems historically significant and has a good amount of secondary academic coverage: The Divine Heritage of the Yadavas. Adding here due to crossover interest. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 20:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Why are the article and its talk page protected at the same time? It is against WP:PP?- MW ℳ 08:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
I protected the page yesterday. I did not realize that the talk page was protected, as it is only to be done in unusual circumstances. I have therefore unprotected the talk page, but will monitor to see if significant problems result. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 15:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
hinduism and its military ethos page 209
The books clearly states that yadavas are chandravanshi khastriyas. please correct the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truefact1979 ( talk • contribs) 18:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
1. Hinduism and Its Military Ethos By R. K. Nehra Page 209 http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=hinduism+and+its+military+ethos+yadavas+chandravanshi+line&btnG=
2. The golden book of India: a genealogical and biographical dictionary of the ... By Sir Roper Lethbridge page 246
Two reliable sources mention yadavs as chandravanshi khastriyas.
Please correct the article to mention "that certain scholars agree yadavs are chandravanshi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truefact1979 ( talk • contribs) 00:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
This article needs changes and the first which needs to change is the introduction. The article needs to mention that yadavs claim they are chandravanshi khastriyas and descendant of Yadu and that some scholars agree and some dispute it. As a thumb rule the introduction has to mention important points. Please correct this as the introduction is very weak. Also the above two links can be used as reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.18.192.2 ( talk) 17:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
... why we have two pages, Yadav and Ahir? Aren't Yadav just the Ahir—milkmen and cowherds—who in the last century have taken the last name Yadav? If so, the lead should say something along the lines of, "Yadav/Ahir is a Hindu pastoral caste in UP, Bihar, ... Their varna status is the subject of dispute." I feel that all the agricultural and pastoral castes (Kurmi, Kunbi, Keoris, Yadav, Ahir) should have similar leads. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:40, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Even till 1400 AD some of the dynasties in India called themselves Yadavs ( Suena yadavs of Devagiri ). This article needs corrections. The introduction is wrong. Unneccary stuff has been put in.
. Hinduism and Its Military Ethos By R. K. Nehra Page 209 http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=hinduism+and+its+military+ethos+yadavas+chandravanshi+line&btnG=
2. The golden book of India: a genealogical and biographical dictionary of the ... By Sir Roper Lethbridge page 246
Two reliable sources mention yadavs as chandravanshi khastriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truefact1979 ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
various scholars have agreeded that yadavs are chandravanshi khastriyas and some have not.
The following link can be used to verify that yadavs are khastriyas.
http://www.sishri.org/velir.html ( This website clearly mentions in some parts of india Yadavs are khastriyas ).
http://storyofkannada.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-seuna-dynasty.html
Also till 1400 AD there were dynasties which claimed that they are yadavs. The descendants of this dynasties still would be living in India. Also the article mentions that only from 19th century yadavs are trying to raise their status. Its wrong. In 1400 AD a dyansty claimed they are yadavs ( chandravanshi ). These people cannot disappear just like that.
proof some scholars claim yadavs as khastriyas.
book : We and our administration By K. C. Brahmachary page 388 many scholars agree yadavs as khastriyas and some scholars dont.
I request kindly to correct the introduction. please dont neglect these valuable points. So far there is like three books which mention yadavs as khastriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.174.210 ( talk) 02:30, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
What ever proof is provided is simply being ignored. So many references have been provided. its being ignored. The introduction needs changes. The article needs correction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.174.210 ( talk) 03:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
s
Truefact has now been indef blocked & the above IP seems certain to be another of the same. I am not even bothering replying to this sort of sock-generated stuff any further. It wouldn't be so bad if the suggestions were productive, but they rarely are. MW, this is not the first time that you have weighed in to support an obvious sock, and have done so without really adding anything positive - nitpicking about policy etc but never actually providing any source-based argument is pretty pointless in these situations. Is there any chance that you might consider the contribution history etc in future before prolonging all of our agony? I say this here because you will not let me explain the reasoning on your talk page. - Sitush ( talk) 15:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Since the article and talk page can't be protected simultaneously, all we can do is to simply remove every single post that is nothing more than ranting and raving about the bias of editors here. Anyone who wants to present reliable sources and have polite, collegial discussions about the article is welcome to do so (except, of course, for socks of blocked or banned editors). Anyone with an actual behavioral complaint is invited to open a thread at WP:ANI; be prepared to support such a complaint. Qwyrxian ( talk) 12:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
IPs. Please do not use this page for soapboxing. Please also do not make personal attacks. This page is meant for discussing improvements in the article only. If you have problem with some material in the article, please note them on this page and discuss them. Please try to explain why you think it is problematic, and what could be done to fix it. There are lots of points which can be discussed. If you want some new material to be added, you can discuss that too. You can try to discuss the reliability of the publisher and author to make your case. All material in article space is controlled by WP:DUE. You can also discuss what is/is not "due" content for this article. Much of this article may be against WP:DUE in my opinion. You too can give your opinion on that. If you want some new material to be added, you can look through googlebooks and googlescholar too. There are thousands of sources and things which you can discuss and try to improve this article. Please do not indulge in soapboxing and please do not make personal attacks. MW ℳ 13:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I have tagged NPOV. The article seems to be a massive collection of malicious literatures, with removal of many sourced edits. Ikon No-Blast 07:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
to sell their books. Please don't try to threaten block,I know some of the editors on this page are Admin Trolls. Building POV through admin power would only diminish the credibility of this wikipedia. Ikon No-Blast 07:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict) As I said, there are articles for those subjects. A short statement and a link to them would suffice. This is how it was heading until the recent influx of socks etc, the problem being that there is in fact academic uncertainty regarding the connection (hence, the academics often use the word "claim" rather than, for example, "are"). This has all been discussed at length recently and I urge you to read what was said.
The addition of poorly cited content does not aid your case. I do not know to which "masters" you are referring, and what the ancient Hindu scriptures may say is largely irrelevant to a Wikipedia article about anything but the scriptures themselves. - Sitush ( talk) 10:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Dear Ikonoblast, please assume good faith. It's not clear what exactly what you want, but from your comments and edits, it seems that you want this article to focus on your Ahir caste.
Please read the earlier discussions: your Ahir caste does not have the monopoly over the term "Yadav". So, please stop hijacking this article and filling it with content about Ahirs -- there is a separate article about the Ahirs. The term Yadav, as used in modern North Indian states (esp. Bihar and UP), is synonymous with Ahir. But, North India is not the center of the the universe, and this is not true in all the contexts.
Your sources "Bhandarkar, ghurye, rao, smith etc" are not being removed because others have a personal agenda. They're being removed because they are about the ancient Yadavas, Abhira Kingdom or Ahirs and belong to those articles. This has been discussed umpteen times -- please go through the archives and edit summaries. There are separate articles for a reason:
The content and the sources that you'd adding (such as 1, 2) is about the ancient Yadavas. There is a separate article for this topic -- please add it to Yadava or Abhira Kingdom. If you want to write a section about the Ahirs (such as James Tod calling them a royal race), please add it to the article on Ahirs.
You've not given any proof of "massive collection of malicious literatures" for tagging the article as POV, but you yourself are inserting pseudohistorical content like "Krishna is the Hinduised form of Jesus Christ".
Writing 1 or 2 sentences about the ancient Yadava tribe or the Ahirs in this article is OK. But, you're adding text which belongs to other articles. This is unnecessary duplication at best and shameless ethnic glorification at worst.
You're accusing others of being "malicious" or "trolls", while in fact, you're the only one here who's being uncivil. You've been blocked earlier for incivility and bad-faith edits earlier -- please learn to indulge in rational, cool-headed discussions. utcursch | talk 11:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Let's go through your sources one by one:
There are multiple sources in the article which support the claim that the term "Yadav" covers many castes. But none of your sources support the claim that all the castes called Yadav are same as the Ahirs and the ancient dynasties.
Nobody is claiming your content and sources are wrong. They simply do not belong to this article. Instead of discussing things rationally, you're simply pushing your caste glorification agenda. utcursch | talk 12:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
utcursch and sitush pls stop pointing out names of others for the credibility of their work ... ikonoblast and mongowong have good done excellent work in the past.while sitush and co have had issue with someone or other because what they are displaying is autocracy . you mentioned that modern yadavs are not ancient yadavs than who are they??? where 15 millions of yadav came suddenly in to being??? please do let me know if you do have proof of allother caste that they are same as thne ancient caste which they claim there origination from .and i dont understand that why on GOD'S green earth are u so much intrested in yadav caste,what about other caste??? are the wiki info displayed over there is correct...and if you say that we are slowly gradually workin on every other caste than i dont see thats true because i havnt seen any work in other caste page...the yadav page have already seen the height of vandalism..the page gives the worst of information about the proud yadav community.i cant understand the motive of you guys??? and now when ikon blast and momgowong are trying to work on the purification of the page you are arguing with them..pls refrain from such behaviour.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaykumarrana ( talk • contribs) 14:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
matthew vanitas@ have you ever been to india??? are you familiar with the culture of india?? you are sounding so cynical and verbose you are displaying show ur chutzpah in handling tacky situation...please take few days rest from so called generic work you are involved in..thnks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.56.13.10 ( talk) 18:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Bill clinton history, let's try to resolve this once and for all. Please can you list below your five "best" sources which state that the modern day Yadavs are the same community as were once known as Yadavas. The usual reliable sources stipulations apply. Should it happen that any of your five are thought to be unreliable then you can take which ever one(s) are so thought to the reliable sources noticeboard for third party opinion. To save you some effort, I will consider as unreliable any source that it written by a member of the Yadav community - this should not present problems for you if the situation is as clear-cut as you believe, - Sitush ( talk) 21:18, 20 August 2011 (UTC)