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Just to explain my edits of Xaxafrad's additions based on the french article.
1) I removed the reparations issue as this was not a faithful translation and is prone to be misunderstood. The French article essentially talks about unsatisfactory resolution of WWI, which does not just involve German misunderstanding of the reason for reparations...
2) I removed the Spanish Civil War as I don't believe this is generally seen as a part of WWII (it's a precursor war).
3) Added a short explanation for the urge for European Unification, maybe a link to Euro Federalism might have been more appropriate then the EU link I used, but I'm not sure these motivations are fully explained in any article.
4) Added political dissidents/opposition persecution to Atrocities, this is actually how many concentration camps such as Dachau started. Note that other political currents should probably be added (Christian Social(ists) for instance, I'm not entirely neutral in this case).
5) According removal of murder of dissidents... as that's now covered under atrocities.
6) Removal of Napalm as that doesn't seem to have seen much use in World War II. What's really meant is fire bombing, and probably White Phosphorus.
Otherwise just minor changes and corrections.
One question, which language standard is used for this article? I'd assume international, but I find many sentences in later parts of the article using american spelling. I was wondering because of the term labor/labour.-- Caranorn 12:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Were you the person that made the introduction a lot longer? If you did than bravo cause it's a lot better than it was... -- LtWinters 19:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there is virtually no mention of Spain, or the Spanish Civil War in this entire humongous article. Spain was a republic before 1936. Franco, a nationalist, almost a socialist, was supported for three years by over $200 million sent from Hitler and Mussolini. The republican government was supported by the Soviet Union. The others allies and members of the League of Nations kept their heads in the sand, afraid of another bloody nose (actually, they were afraid of jumping into a war they weren't sure they could win, since losing another war could lead to a popular uprising, and that's the last thing a democratic government wants). The Spanish Civil War is intimately tied to the pre-war political climate of Europe. It also laid the foundation of distrust between Hitler and Stalin. Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere in this article? 75.111.32.151 21:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it should be mentioned, but you were wrong about one thing. The US did send troops into the Spanish Civil War. There was no draft, it was only volunteers. -- LtWinters 22:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
If you find a good place in the article I'll add it for you. -- LtWinters 15:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Sure, there was a volunteer military unit in the International Brigade made up of Americans, called the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. By 1937 it had about 450 members, and I'm not sure how they organized that but in the WWII infantry that could be from 2 or 3 companies to a whole battalion. It saw combat from 1937-1938. -- LtWinters 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
What does the spanish cival war have to do with world war 2? M_1 20:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish Civil War is relevant because it was supposed to lay the foundation of testing technology and political relationships for WWII
Well I commonly read over stuff so if no one corrects me by 4/20 then I'm going to add stuff, but doesn't that subtopic "Resistance and Collaboration" not include any collaboration? All it says is some Germans resisted allied rule... but what about the French collaboration? Petain was sentenced to life in prison for it! The only reason they didn't execute him was because of his WWI contributions.-- LtWinters 15:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think I'm going to do that now because since we did a huge revision on the main body of the article that section may be deleted. -- LtWinters 00:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This happened after World War 2. So why is it under the heading of "Contemporary wars of world war 2" ? Its like saying that the Turkish war of Independence was a war of world war 1 when of course, it happened after. Tourskin.
Where's it say that in the WWII article?-- 24.225.156.40 18:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
On another note, I now see that the Greek civil war did have an earlier phase during World war 2. I wouldn't call it a direct consequence, other than the fact that there was a power vacuum. Well world war 2 didn't help the country, thats for sure. Tourskin 01:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I just have to correct what is written about Vidkun Quisling weakening the norwegian defense forces, it is absolutely prepostorous. It was created many theories about this after the war, but every seroius historian in Norway has rejected this as rediculous propaganda. In my opinion the picture of Vidkun Quisling is, for those who know of him as in foregin history, very incorrect, though that is another subject. If there was any weakening of the norwegian defense the guilt is to be carried by Quislings political opponents who almost completely disarmed the norwegian military during their reign in the 30s, but that is also another subject.
Since I don't think a short list of "major" combatants violates WP:NPOV, as evidenced by numerous other interwiki infoboxes, I'll include as many countries as I think the infobox can hold, without becoming overwhelmingly large. Xaxafrad 05:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
96T, if we are going to use the Commonwealth (technically "British Commonwealth" in 1926-49) as shorthand for Canada, Australia, India etc — and I stress that I do not support this — then we should also remove the UK since the basic idea of the Commonwealth (as opposed to the Empire) was that the UK was just one member among many, not the leader or even "first among equals". Also Ireland was technically part of the Commonwealth during WW2 and it was neutral so... Grant | Talk 07:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I realize my original judgment in listing combatants was poor; it was almost arbitrary. So instead, I'm going to use the countries mentioned in section 0 of Allies and Axis as a short list of "major" combatants, using the "and others" link to fill in for the remaining sections of those articles. Tell me how that violates NPOV. If somebody wants to add Canada or Poland or Hungary or Finland, let them do it to the lead sections of the Allies and Axis articles first. Doesn't that sound fair? Xaxafrad 18:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. -- LtWinters 19:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Since there is no consensus for including the combatants in the infobox, I anticipate another long and tedious edit war. Grant | Talk 03:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Why are we cramming in as many countries as possible? THERE'S A PAGE FOR BOTH AXIS AND ALLIES! There's really no reason to throw such minor countries as Bulgaria in there. -- Throw some d's 12:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
~please only put you name, date, and time, and if you must a sentance or two on your position~
This voting is on which major nations will be in the allies/axis infobox. It has been suggested (although it may change) that all votes be entered by 4/22.
ALLIES AS:
United Kingdom and All Commonwealth,
United States, and
USSR
AXIS AS:
Italy,
Emperial Japan, and
Nazi Germany
YES:
-- LtWinters 02:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
NO:
--I think that "Allies" and "Axis" is better than your proposal because it solves endless arguments such as why isn't China included (IMHO, their war effort was greater than that of Italy). And btw, if you list the Big Three alphabetically, the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics would be placed first, not last (not that I think that's wrong). With respect, Ko Soi IX 04:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Axis and Allies (or vice versa) seems to be the only approach that could work in the long run. Even if it were decided to opt for major Powers, those should not be the Big Three.-- Caranorn 12:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
YES: absolutely. how can anyone argue who the major powers are? it's almost common knowledge. Merely leaving it as Axis and Allies provides no information. -- Jwinters820 12:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think with the sub-note "and others", it is very fair to include only the major powers (stated above) in the info box. Obviously France wasn't a major player, and China almost never comes to mind when thinking about major combatants in WWII. Taking all of the countries out would be taking information away. Who doesn't know the terms "Allies" and "Axis?" Providing just the major countries involved provides information without too much information. -- Throw some d's 21:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This will sound odd but actually I changed my mind about China as Oberiko pointed out... 20 million dead? That's as much as the USSR so I feel its fair to put them in. -- LtWinters 21:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
But it comes back to China being a major combatant. It fought one country and, for the most part, lost. Jwinters820 22:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm LtWinters' cousin. He told me about this, and I thought I'd give my two cents. -- Jwinters820 21:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC) If there are links to the individual pages for Allies and Axis powers, why list all countries? The major combatants provide enough detail for a basic understanding, and if a reader wants more information, he can click on the links. -- Jwinters820 21:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Voting on More Votes < --- Shall we delete this section? Jwinters820 22:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, why France is included in Allies list, and Poland isnt? There was more Polish troop in war, than French...
Guest
Q: Who thinks we should waste our time with yet another vote over an intractable issue that has been discussed exhaustively over the past 3 months and over which we have already conducted 4 votes (or is it 5? I think the madness is starting to set in as my mind atrophies from the tedium and frustration....) , of which only one was legitimately and logically conducted (the result of which was completely ignored for no good reason). Badgerpatrol 09:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
If it's a waste of time, why did you comment? -- LtWinters 15:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
If it's not a waste of time, why didn't he vote? Badgerpatrol 15:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he has a life?-- LtWinters 18:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to point out that the Spanish, Italians, Dutch, and Polish were able to agree on something, to name a few. Why can't we?
I'm not saying they are reliable sources, and although they argued they were at least able to put down something. You guys seem to be forgetting, if you search ww2 in Google this article is the first you get, and in yahoo its the third. This article is not for us- its for the 7th grader doing a history report on WWII, and trying to make this article more confusing than it is allows us to understand it- but not the reader. -- LtWinters 10:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I feel that even if they did not directly participate in the war, the fact that they supported either the Allied or Axis should be enough to keep them on the list. It would be unfair to dishonor countrys that participated, even if they barely did so. -- Eiyuu Kou 16:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The point is to list the nations that made big contributions, not small ones. Those nations who made minor contributions would be kept on the allied list, but not on the major power list. It's like saying Spain should be listed as a major power because it severed relations with Japan. -- LtWinters 18:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of what countries made large contributions, the facts stand: the major powers, recognized by historians and universities, are the four Allied Forces (United States, United Kingdom, and USSR) and the Axis Powers (Germany, Italy, and Japan). Other countries may have lost many soldiers, pointing out the dedication and the inferiority of the countries armed forces, yet the diplomatic power and influence rests in these few countries' hands. -- Dkwinters 12:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Considering World War 2 was started when Great Britain declared war on Germany.
The thing that really made it a world war was Great Britain's massive empire being at war with the Axis, and that Great Britain in the lead up to World War 2 had been the World's main policing Superpower due to its leadership of the League of Nations and the extensiveness of its empire, influence, and overseas trade. Great Britain's role during the Second World War was played down over the duration of the Cold War by people mistaking Great Britain's strength during the Cold War as its strength during the Second World War.
In regards to Second World War roles played by nations people tend to overexagerate the Soviet Union's role by mistaking the increase in its power during the Cold War as its power during the Second World War and with Great Britain they down play its role by mistaking its power during the Cold War as its power during the Second World War.
In 1939 when the Second World War started Great Britain was no weakling considering though it no longer had the world's highest GDP it was the world's largest trading nation and its GDP was only second behind the United States, with the largest empire in the world (more than all others at the time combined), and militarily it had the world's largest navy, arguably the world's most advanced air force with the launch of the Spitfire fighters and it being the only country in the world to start using radar and was also the first country to start researching the atom bomb.
My point is that in the factbox I think Great Britain should be the first mentioned considering all this and the main points of that the Second World War was really Great Britain's war against Fascism when it declared war on the number 1 Fascist country Germany and got its ally France to do the same, who at the time just followed whatever Great Britain did.
The Second World War was started by Great Britain as its last resort of stopping Fascism's advance around the globe as it was the world's only policeman at the time along with its protege France, and so Great Britain really should be the first mentioned in the infobox. Also Great Britain was in the Second World War longer than any other country in the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.109.10.175 ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't the most simple way to order the countries would be to have them in chronology of when they joined the war rather than in any fashion or some other way? The Axis lineup seems to be ordered by chronology of when they joined the war. In what way are the Allies supposed to be set at the moment? I think it's very disrespectful to the UK that it's so low on the list and makes it seem like the war it created against Fascism has been hijacked by others.
Why is Poland in the infobox (which it is according to Xaxafrad's logic of using the Allies page), which was only in the war as a nation for about a month, but not Canada, which fought from the begging until the end? Oberiko 10:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Why are these guys allies?????? Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland?-- 24.225.156.40 11:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is all getting a bit pointy. Everyone agrees (I hope) that "Allies" and "Axis" are the two combatant groups. No one agrees (apparently) on which members of those groups should be listed, in what order, and how many of them. Yes, yes, there is a Big 3 faction, a 5v3 faction, a list-'em-all-and-let-God-sort-'em-out faction, but there is no consensus. It's all opinion. So I'll ask a question that I asked in a previous incarnation of this debate: what do reliable, verifiable sources say? Is there a consensus view among reliable historical sources as to who the "major" Allied and Axis nations were? If so, then we should publish that list with a reference. If not, then any list is inherently POV, probably original research, and has no place here. - Eron Talk 12:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The section says it all. It seems Badgerpatrol and Oberiko's last edits to both this article and the Allied Powers article were to prove a point (that anyone could add any country any which way). Don't do that! It only disrupts the information we are trying to provide to average users. lets instead try and debate rationally how we can solve the current problem.-- Caranorn 13:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As of April 20th, of the 86 interwiki articles linked from en:WW2, 34 have been developed enough to gain infoboxes...
I took the liberty of bolding the top 10 biggest wikis which have links from wikipedia.org, as I'm assuming those wikis have the most users, and the most oversight, and are most likely to be well developed and within Wikipedia's guidelines. It doesn't seem like listing a few countries in the infobox really violates NPOV. So again, I assert that the listing of just a few countries is not biased, is not against Wikipedia policies, and is more informative to the dear readers.
But there are some obvious drawbacks to such a listing. I won't spell them out at this point, as anyone involved in this discussion is already aware of the situation. If a 3vs3 short list is undesirable, then let's go with something like 15vs15...I'm going to take every country from all the interwiki infoboxes and see if that makes our infobox want to throw up. If it looks okay, then we'll see how many countries still want to be added.... Xaxafrad 17:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | combatant1/combatant2/combatant3 – optional – the parties participating in the conflict. This is most commonly the countries whose forces took part in the conflict; however, larger groups (such as alliances or international organizations) or smaller ones (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding. When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict, and to describe the rest in the body of the article. | ” |
I say yes to Germany, Japan and Italy for the Axis, USSR, UK, USA and China for the allies. We can also go just Germany and Japan for the axis (Italy can be excluded, for they were not as significant as the other two) and USSR, UK and USA for the allies. Thegoodson 21:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Soo...in like three places in the article, different numbers of casualties are marked. Like in the first part, the article says like 62 people died, and in the second part it said 73 people died!!! What the heck! This article is soooo inconsistant!!! Can someone make it better? Lila 14:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed that because WAY over 62 million people died. At first, I didn't see the number in the fisrt part of the article. But you are evading. Lila 14:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There is probably some high-school student doing some project on WWII (bumps self) and they are looking at the article every day, but each day they see a different amount of casualties and when they put the number in their paper...and then it all is confusing.....ya know what I mean? Lila 15:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The anniversaries page states September 1, 1939 as the beginning of the war, as does every other book and documentary I have ever seen. Why does the intro to the article state 1937 as the beginning of the war? This date is accepted by no one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.174.104 ( talk • contribs)
...really? It's not that I don't believe you, but could you give me a link or something that proves what you just said? Lila 13:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
yea, go to http://threeworldwars.com/world-war-3/ww3.htm, scroll down to the definition of a world war... WW3 for wikipedia says something similar, that says multiple continents if it matters... -- LtWinters 23:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
So I'm just trying to get this article into a good shape; 173kb doesn't seem good. It's 61kb now, after pushing the chronology section into the chronology article, again, and also moving the causes and aftermath sections into better locations. Some people will think it's better, some people will think it's worse...I hope to hear from both groups. Xaxafrad 00:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I assert that this article is a general article about the many facets, aspects, and characteristics of this arguably unique war and hasn't the room for such operational detail as was included in the chronology. How many people keep adding things to the middle of the article, without noticing the notice at the top of the article admonishing editors to consider placing new content in sub-articles? Isn't this article almost too big, even without the chronology section? I might call it well-rounded, as it stands now, while the chronology section was like some kind of tumor. Xaxafrad 00:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the spirit of keeping this as a general article, I just deleted the Ukrainian Insurgent Army section. It was a direct copy of the lede from the main article, and was far too specific for an overview article. Hope no one minds, though I am sure someone will. - Eron Talk 00:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I know wikipedia's policy is that articles too long is not good, but why is that the policy? For what reason is that? And I agree with the removal of the Ukrainian army.-- LtWinters 02:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, this poor article. We've got the honor student lead, the infobox that doesn't inform, and now the chronology has been discarded. Revert? Haber 02:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I was considering adding the following text (clipped from History_of_Germany#Weimar_Republic) before the causes section. I know it's in the opposite direction of smaller, but I think it makes the article more well-rounded and informative. I recall reading (on Wikipedia) about the brief French occupation of the Rhineland (or Ruhr) in 1926, in violation of League of Nations rules. And Asia.... Xaxafrad 06:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
On 28 June 1919 the Treaty of Versailles was signed. Germany was to cede Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmédy, North Schleswig, and the Memel area. Poland was restored and most of the provinces of Posen and West Prussia, and some areas of Upper Silesia were reincorporated into the reformed country after plebiscites and independence uprisings. All German colonies were to be handed over to the Allies. The left and right banks of the Rhine were to be permanently demilitarised. The industrially important Saarland was to be governed by the League of Nations for 15 years and its coalfields administered by France. At the end of that time a plebiscite was to determine the Saar's future status. To ensure execution of the treaty's terms, Allied troops would occupy the left (German) bank of the Rhine for a period of 5–15 years. The German army was to be limited to 100,000 officers and men; the general staff was to be dissolved; vast quantities of war material were to be handed over and the manufacture of munitions rigidly curtailed. The navy was to be similarly reduced, and no military aircraft were allowed. Germany and its allies were to accept the sole responsibility of the war, and were to pay financial reparations for all loss and damage suffered by the Allies. The humiliating peace terms provoked bitter indignation throughout Germany, and seriously weakened the new democratic regime.
Faced with animosity from Britain and France and the retreat of American power from Europe, in 1922 Germany was the first state to establish diplomatic relations with the new Soviet Union. Under the Treaty of Rapallo, Germany accorded the Soviet Union de jure recognition, and the two signatories mutually cancelled all pre-war debts and renounced war claims.
When Germany defaulted on its reparation payments, French and Belgian troops occupied the heavily industrialised Ruhr district (January 1923). The German government encouraged the population of the Ruhr to passive resistance: shops would not sell goods to the foreign soldiers, coal-mines would not dig for the foreign troops, trams in which members of the occupation army had taken seat would be left abandoned in the middle of the street. The passive resistance proved effective, in so far as the occupation became a loss-making deal for the French government. But the Ruhr fight also led to hyperinflation, and many who lost all their fortune would become bitter enemies of the Weimar Republic, and voters of the anti-democratic right. <end of section stub>
yea we definantly need a prelude.... wurd. -- LtWinters 00:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to add a topic on D-Day because it was arguably the most important event in the war. Smartguy583 14:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
D-Day is an important event in WWII because it liberated France. (I think). Sure it isn't the most important but it sure ranks up there. Besides, Stalingrad shouldn't even have been fought. Hitler's generals wanted to take over important oil fields that were further below Stalingrad. -- XAM 01:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that it does not deserve a subtopic, and we should keep it as it is. However, I would not be against anyone adding more information to that paragraph for two about it. -- LtWinters 21:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The result of the now archived Good article review was no consensus, keep by default. Just FYI. IvoShandor 11:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Right now we've got the article divided up as such:
That's two "top level" chronology sections and a break down in between.
To improve the article flow, I think we might be better off having those two top leves and four "secondary level" sections:
These four areas are, IMHO, relatively isolated from each other and we could improve readability by not having as many "meanwhile, back on Theatre X..." sections breaking up each area. A (rough) example of what I mean would be something like the following:
I am pretty sure those numbers aren't too correct. I am talking about the casualties in the top right side bar thing. -- XAM 01:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
It just seemed like there were hardly enough Axis casualties. You are probably right but I just wanted to make sure.
I think it is all very simple. Don't say final numbers, give them ranges. For example see here http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm Soviet military losses varies from 6 to 26M people. This is just ridiculous. Wikisib 17:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I looked up two print references. Neither provide overall totals, but they do provide breakdowns, by country and by military/civilian, which can be totalled. John Ellis's World War II: A Statistical Survey lists approximately 45.7M deaths: 14M Allied military, 22.4M Allied civilian, 5.9M Axis military, and 3.4M Axis civilian. The Oxford Companion to World War II lists approximately 49M deaths: 14.2M Allied military, 24M Allied civilian, 7.7M Axis military, and 3.1M Axis civilian. Neither approaches the 60M figure currently listed - let alone the 72M posted on World War II casualties. (A review of the figures on that page, and current discussion on its talk page, suggests that this total is open to debate.) From what I have found so far, any source that lists casualty figures does so with a number of caveats, and the general feeling is that it is impossible to provide truly accurate figures. Everything is an estimate. Given the dearth of reliable statistics, I am not sure how to proceed. Based on my own research, I would be reluctant to put down any figure greater than 50M; I have no solid sources to support a higher figure. The number at World War II casualties seems to have been arrived at by totalling up estimates from a variety of sources. While on the surface this is simple arithmatic - which I myself did to get totals from Ellis and Oxford - I am concerned about the use of multiple sources to arrive at a single figure; I think this borders on original research. - Eron Talk 15:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
EronMain, just to clarify. You totally misunderstood me and I never called anybody's work "ridiculous". "Ridiculous" is the range of numbers (6M-26M) which we get from different sources (this is nobody's fault, this is how it is). My point is that it is not possible to pick a good number in the range of 6-26. Wikisib 20:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The total dead for years was placed at 55 million, both civilian and military. The Russian losses were said to be 26 million on the talk page. I have always heard up to 25 million, both military and civilian. This obviously included those taken by Germans never to be seen again. The consesus is that it is 60 million plus, but people don't want to back up statistics with the fact that they can't back them up with the evidence. 86.149.209.189 22:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Just to explain my edits of Xaxafrad's additions based on the french article.
1) I removed the reparations issue as this was not a faithful translation and is prone to be misunderstood. The French article essentially talks about unsatisfactory resolution of WWI, which does not just involve German misunderstanding of the reason for reparations...
2) I removed the Spanish Civil War as I don't believe this is generally seen as a part of WWII (it's a precursor war).
3) Added a short explanation for the urge for European Unification, maybe a link to Euro Federalism might have been more appropriate then the EU link I used, but I'm not sure these motivations are fully explained in any article.
4) Added political dissidents/opposition persecution to Atrocities, this is actually how many concentration camps such as Dachau started. Note that other political currents should probably be added (Christian Social(ists) for instance, I'm not entirely neutral in this case).
5) According removal of murder of dissidents... as that's now covered under atrocities.
6) Removal of Napalm as that doesn't seem to have seen much use in World War II. What's really meant is fire bombing, and probably White Phosphorus.
Otherwise just minor changes and corrections.
One question, which language standard is used for this article? I'd assume international, but I find many sentences in later parts of the article using american spelling. I was wondering because of the term labor/labour.-- Caranorn 12:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Were you the person that made the introduction a lot longer? If you did than bravo cause it's a lot better than it was... -- LtWinters 19:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there is virtually no mention of Spain, or the Spanish Civil War in this entire humongous article. Spain was a republic before 1936. Franco, a nationalist, almost a socialist, was supported for three years by over $200 million sent from Hitler and Mussolini. The republican government was supported by the Soviet Union. The others allies and members of the League of Nations kept their heads in the sand, afraid of another bloody nose (actually, they were afraid of jumping into a war they weren't sure they could win, since losing another war could lead to a popular uprising, and that's the last thing a democratic government wants). The Spanish Civil War is intimately tied to the pre-war political climate of Europe. It also laid the foundation of distrust between Hitler and Stalin. Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere in this article? 75.111.32.151 21:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it should be mentioned, but you were wrong about one thing. The US did send troops into the Spanish Civil War. There was no draft, it was only volunteers. -- LtWinters 22:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
If you find a good place in the article I'll add it for you. -- LtWinters 15:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Sure, there was a volunteer military unit in the International Brigade made up of Americans, called the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. By 1937 it had about 450 members, and I'm not sure how they organized that but in the WWII infantry that could be from 2 or 3 companies to a whole battalion. It saw combat from 1937-1938. -- LtWinters 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
What does the spanish cival war have to do with world war 2? M_1 20:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish Civil War is relevant because it was supposed to lay the foundation of testing technology and political relationships for WWII
Well I commonly read over stuff so if no one corrects me by 4/20 then I'm going to add stuff, but doesn't that subtopic "Resistance and Collaboration" not include any collaboration? All it says is some Germans resisted allied rule... but what about the French collaboration? Petain was sentenced to life in prison for it! The only reason they didn't execute him was because of his WWI contributions.-- LtWinters 15:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think I'm going to do that now because since we did a huge revision on the main body of the article that section may be deleted. -- LtWinters 00:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This happened after World War 2. So why is it under the heading of "Contemporary wars of world war 2" ? Its like saying that the Turkish war of Independence was a war of world war 1 when of course, it happened after. Tourskin.
Where's it say that in the WWII article?-- 24.225.156.40 18:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
On another note, I now see that the Greek civil war did have an earlier phase during World war 2. I wouldn't call it a direct consequence, other than the fact that there was a power vacuum. Well world war 2 didn't help the country, thats for sure. Tourskin 01:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I just have to correct what is written about Vidkun Quisling weakening the norwegian defense forces, it is absolutely prepostorous. It was created many theories about this after the war, but every seroius historian in Norway has rejected this as rediculous propaganda. In my opinion the picture of Vidkun Quisling is, for those who know of him as in foregin history, very incorrect, though that is another subject. If there was any weakening of the norwegian defense the guilt is to be carried by Quislings political opponents who almost completely disarmed the norwegian military during their reign in the 30s, but that is also another subject.
Since I don't think a short list of "major" combatants violates WP:NPOV, as evidenced by numerous other interwiki infoboxes, I'll include as many countries as I think the infobox can hold, without becoming overwhelmingly large. Xaxafrad 05:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
96T, if we are going to use the Commonwealth (technically "British Commonwealth" in 1926-49) as shorthand for Canada, Australia, India etc — and I stress that I do not support this — then we should also remove the UK since the basic idea of the Commonwealth (as opposed to the Empire) was that the UK was just one member among many, not the leader or even "first among equals". Also Ireland was technically part of the Commonwealth during WW2 and it was neutral so... Grant | Talk 07:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I realize my original judgment in listing combatants was poor; it was almost arbitrary. So instead, I'm going to use the countries mentioned in section 0 of Allies and Axis as a short list of "major" combatants, using the "and others" link to fill in for the remaining sections of those articles. Tell me how that violates NPOV. If somebody wants to add Canada or Poland or Hungary or Finland, let them do it to the lead sections of the Allies and Axis articles first. Doesn't that sound fair? Xaxafrad 18:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. -- LtWinters 19:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Since there is no consensus for including the combatants in the infobox, I anticipate another long and tedious edit war. Grant | Talk 03:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Why are we cramming in as many countries as possible? THERE'S A PAGE FOR BOTH AXIS AND ALLIES! There's really no reason to throw such minor countries as Bulgaria in there. -- Throw some d's 12:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
~please only put you name, date, and time, and if you must a sentance or two on your position~
This voting is on which major nations will be in the allies/axis infobox. It has been suggested (although it may change) that all votes be entered by 4/22.
ALLIES AS:
United Kingdom and All Commonwealth,
United States, and
USSR
AXIS AS:
Italy,
Emperial Japan, and
Nazi Germany
YES:
-- LtWinters 02:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
NO:
--I think that "Allies" and "Axis" is better than your proposal because it solves endless arguments such as why isn't China included (IMHO, their war effort was greater than that of Italy). And btw, if you list the Big Three alphabetically, the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics would be placed first, not last (not that I think that's wrong). With respect, Ko Soi IX 04:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Axis and Allies (or vice versa) seems to be the only approach that could work in the long run. Even if it were decided to opt for major Powers, those should not be the Big Three.-- Caranorn 12:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
YES: absolutely. how can anyone argue who the major powers are? it's almost common knowledge. Merely leaving it as Axis and Allies provides no information. -- Jwinters820 12:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think with the sub-note "and others", it is very fair to include only the major powers (stated above) in the info box. Obviously France wasn't a major player, and China almost never comes to mind when thinking about major combatants in WWII. Taking all of the countries out would be taking information away. Who doesn't know the terms "Allies" and "Axis?" Providing just the major countries involved provides information without too much information. -- Throw some d's 21:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This will sound odd but actually I changed my mind about China as Oberiko pointed out... 20 million dead? That's as much as the USSR so I feel its fair to put them in. -- LtWinters 21:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
But it comes back to China being a major combatant. It fought one country and, for the most part, lost. Jwinters820 22:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm LtWinters' cousin. He told me about this, and I thought I'd give my two cents. -- Jwinters820 21:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC) If there are links to the individual pages for Allies and Axis powers, why list all countries? The major combatants provide enough detail for a basic understanding, and if a reader wants more information, he can click on the links. -- Jwinters820 21:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Voting on More Votes < --- Shall we delete this section? Jwinters820 22:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, why France is included in Allies list, and Poland isnt? There was more Polish troop in war, than French...
Guest
Q: Who thinks we should waste our time with yet another vote over an intractable issue that has been discussed exhaustively over the past 3 months and over which we have already conducted 4 votes (or is it 5? I think the madness is starting to set in as my mind atrophies from the tedium and frustration....) , of which only one was legitimately and logically conducted (the result of which was completely ignored for no good reason). Badgerpatrol 09:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
If it's a waste of time, why did you comment? -- LtWinters 15:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
If it's not a waste of time, why didn't he vote? Badgerpatrol 15:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he has a life?-- LtWinters 18:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to point out that the Spanish, Italians, Dutch, and Polish were able to agree on something, to name a few. Why can't we?
I'm not saying they are reliable sources, and although they argued they were at least able to put down something. You guys seem to be forgetting, if you search ww2 in Google this article is the first you get, and in yahoo its the third. This article is not for us- its for the 7th grader doing a history report on WWII, and trying to make this article more confusing than it is allows us to understand it- but not the reader. -- LtWinters 10:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I feel that even if they did not directly participate in the war, the fact that they supported either the Allied or Axis should be enough to keep them on the list. It would be unfair to dishonor countrys that participated, even if they barely did so. -- Eiyuu Kou 16:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The point is to list the nations that made big contributions, not small ones. Those nations who made minor contributions would be kept on the allied list, but not on the major power list. It's like saying Spain should be listed as a major power because it severed relations with Japan. -- LtWinters 18:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of what countries made large contributions, the facts stand: the major powers, recognized by historians and universities, are the four Allied Forces (United States, United Kingdom, and USSR) and the Axis Powers (Germany, Italy, and Japan). Other countries may have lost many soldiers, pointing out the dedication and the inferiority of the countries armed forces, yet the diplomatic power and influence rests in these few countries' hands. -- Dkwinters 12:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Considering World War 2 was started when Great Britain declared war on Germany.
The thing that really made it a world war was Great Britain's massive empire being at war with the Axis, and that Great Britain in the lead up to World War 2 had been the World's main policing Superpower due to its leadership of the League of Nations and the extensiveness of its empire, influence, and overseas trade. Great Britain's role during the Second World War was played down over the duration of the Cold War by people mistaking Great Britain's strength during the Cold War as its strength during the Second World War.
In regards to Second World War roles played by nations people tend to overexagerate the Soviet Union's role by mistaking the increase in its power during the Cold War as its power during the Second World War and with Great Britain they down play its role by mistaking its power during the Cold War as its power during the Second World War.
In 1939 when the Second World War started Great Britain was no weakling considering though it no longer had the world's highest GDP it was the world's largest trading nation and its GDP was only second behind the United States, with the largest empire in the world (more than all others at the time combined), and militarily it had the world's largest navy, arguably the world's most advanced air force with the launch of the Spitfire fighters and it being the only country in the world to start using radar and was also the first country to start researching the atom bomb.
My point is that in the factbox I think Great Britain should be the first mentioned considering all this and the main points of that the Second World War was really Great Britain's war against Fascism when it declared war on the number 1 Fascist country Germany and got its ally France to do the same, who at the time just followed whatever Great Britain did.
The Second World War was started by Great Britain as its last resort of stopping Fascism's advance around the globe as it was the world's only policeman at the time along with its protege France, and so Great Britain really should be the first mentioned in the infobox. Also Great Britain was in the Second World War longer than any other country in the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.109.10.175 ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't the most simple way to order the countries would be to have them in chronology of when they joined the war rather than in any fashion or some other way? The Axis lineup seems to be ordered by chronology of when they joined the war. In what way are the Allies supposed to be set at the moment? I think it's very disrespectful to the UK that it's so low on the list and makes it seem like the war it created against Fascism has been hijacked by others.
Why is Poland in the infobox (which it is according to Xaxafrad's logic of using the Allies page), which was only in the war as a nation for about a month, but not Canada, which fought from the begging until the end? Oberiko 10:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Why are these guys allies?????? Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland?-- 24.225.156.40 11:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is all getting a bit pointy. Everyone agrees (I hope) that "Allies" and "Axis" are the two combatant groups. No one agrees (apparently) on which members of those groups should be listed, in what order, and how many of them. Yes, yes, there is a Big 3 faction, a 5v3 faction, a list-'em-all-and-let-God-sort-'em-out faction, but there is no consensus. It's all opinion. So I'll ask a question that I asked in a previous incarnation of this debate: what do reliable, verifiable sources say? Is there a consensus view among reliable historical sources as to who the "major" Allied and Axis nations were? If so, then we should publish that list with a reference. If not, then any list is inherently POV, probably original research, and has no place here. - Eron Talk 12:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The section says it all. It seems Badgerpatrol and Oberiko's last edits to both this article and the Allied Powers article were to prove a point (that anyone could add any country any which way). Don't do that! It only disrupts the information we are trying to provide to average users. lets instead try and debate rationally how we can solve the current problem.-- Caranorn 13:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
World War II | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
World War II montage image Clockwise from top: Allied landing on Normandy beaches on D-Day, the gate of a Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz, Red Army soldiers raising the Soviet flag over the Reichstag in Berlin, the Nagasaki atom bomb, and German police entering Austria. | |||||||
| |||||||
Belligerents | |||||||
Allies |
Axis powers | ||||||
Commanders and leaders | |||||||
Allied leaders | Axis leaders | ||||||
Casualties and losses | |||||||
Military dead: 45,000,000 |
Military dead: 9,000,000 |
As of April 20th, of the 86 interwiki articles linked from en:WW2, 34 have been developed enough to gain infoboxes...
I took the liberty of bolding the top 10 biggest wikis which have links from wikipedia.org, as I'm assuming those wikis have the most users, and the most oversight, and are most likely to be well developed and within Wikipedia's guidelines. It doesn't seem like listing a few countries in the infobox really violates NPOV. So again, I assert that the listing of just a few countries is not biased, is not against Wikipedia policies, and is more informative to the dear readers.
But there are some obvious drawbacks to such a listing. I won't spell them out at this point, as anyone involved in this discussion is already aware of the situation. If a 3vs3 short list is undesirable, then let's go with something like 15vs15...I'm going to take every country from all the interwiki infoboxes and see if that makes our infobox want to throw up. If it looks okay, then we'll see how many countries still want to be added.... Xaxafrad 17:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | combatant1/combatant2/combatant3 – optional – the parties participating in the conflict. This is most commonly the countries whose forces took part in the conflict; however, larger groups (such as alliances or international organizations) or smaller ones (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding. When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict, and to describe the rest in the body of the article. | ” |
I say yes to Germany, Japan and Italy for the Axis, USSR, UK, USA and China for the allies. We can also go just Germany and Japan for the axis (Italy can be excluded, for they were not as significant as the other two) and USSR, UK and USA for the allies. Thegoodson 21:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Soo...in like three places in the article, different numbers of casualties are marked. Like in the first part, the article says like 62 people died, and in the second part it said 73 people died!!! What the heck! This article is soooo inconsistant!!! Can someone make it better? Lila 14:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed that because WAY over 62 million people died. At first, I didn't see the number in the fisrt part of the article. But you are evading. Lila 14:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There is probably some high-school student doing some project on WWII (bumps self) and they are looking at the article every day, but each day they see a different amount of casualties and when they put the number in their paper...and then it all is confusing.....ya know what I mean? Lila 15:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The anniversaries page states September 1, 1939 as the beginning of the war, as does every other book and documentary I have ever seen. Why does the intro to the article state 1937 as the beginning of the war? This date is accepted by no one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.174.104 ( talk • contribs)
...really? It's not that I don't believe you, but could you give me a link or something that proves what you just said? Lila 13:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
yea, go to http://threeworldwars.com/world-war-3/ww3.htm, scroll down to the definition of a world war... WW3 for wikipedia says something similar, that says multiple continents if it matters... -- LtWinters 23:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
So I'm just trying to get this article into a good shape; 173kb doesn't seem good. It's 61kb now, after pushing the chronology section into the chronology article, again, and also moving the causes and aftermath sections into better locations. Some people will think it's better, some people will think it's worse...I hope to hear from both groups. Xaxafrad 00:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I assert that this article is a general article about the many facets, aspects, and characteristics of this arguably unique war and hasn't the room for such operational detail as was included in the chronology. How many people keep adding things to the middle of the article, without noticing the notice at the top of the article admonishing editors to consider placing new content in sub-articles? Isn't this article almost too big, even without the chronology section? I might call it well-rounded, as it stands now, while the chronology section was like some kind of tumor. Xaxafrad 00:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the spirit of keeping this as a general article, I just deleted the Ukrainian Insurgent Army section. It was a direct copy of the lede from the main article, and was far too specific for an overview article. Hope no one minds, though I am sure someone will. - Eron Talk 00:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I know wikipedia's policy is that articles too long is not good, but why is that the policy? For what reason is that? And I agree with the removal of the Ukrainian army.-- LtWinters 02:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, this poor article. We've got the honor student lead, the infobox that doesn't inform, and now the chronology has been discarded. Revert? Haber 02:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I was considering adding the following text (clipped from History_of_Germany#Weimar_Republic) before the causes section. I know it's in the opposite direction of smaller, but I think it makes the article more well-rounded and informative. I recall reading (on Wikipedia) about the brief French occupation of the Rhineland (or Ruhr) in 1926, in violation of League of Nations rules. And Asia.... Xaxafrad 06:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
On 28 June 1919 the Treaty of Versailles was signed. Germany was to cede Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmédy, North Schleswig, and the Memel area. Poland was restored and most of the provinces of Posen and West Prussia, and some areas of Upper Silesia were reincorporated into the reformed country after plebiscites and independence uprisings. All German colonies were to be handed over to the Allies. The left and right banks of the Rhine were to be permanently demilitarised. The industrially important Saarland was to be governed by the League of Nations for 15 years and its coalfields administered by France. At the end of that time a plebiscite was to determine the Saar's future status. To ensure execution of the treaty's terms, Allied troops would occupy the left (German) bank of the Rhine for a period of 5–15 years. The German army was to be limited to 100,000 officers and men; the general staff was to be dissolved; vast quantities of war material were to be handed over and the manufacture of munitions rigidly curtailed. The navy was to be similarly reduced, and no military aircraft were allowed. Germany and its allies were to accept the sole responsibility of the war, and were to pay financial reparations for all loss and damage suffered by the Allies. The humiliating peace terms provoked bitter indignation throughout Germany, and seriously weakened the new democratic regime.
Faced with animosity from Britain and France and the retreat of American power from Europe, in 1922 Germany was the first state to establish diplomatic relations with the new Soviet Union. Under the Treaty of Rapallo, Germany accorded the Soviet Union de jure recognition, and the two signatories mutually cancelled all pre-war debts and renounced war claims.
When Germany defaulted on its reparation payments, French and Belgian troops occupied the heavily industrialised Ruhr district (January 1923). The German government encouraged the population of the Ruhr to passive resistance: shops would not sell goods to the foreign soldiers, coal-mines would not dig for the foreign troops, trams in which members of the occupation army had taken seat would be left abandoned in the middle of the street. The passive resistance proved effective, in so far as the occupation became a loss-making deal for the French government. But the Ruhr fight also led to hyperinflation, and many who lost all their fortune would become bitter enemies of the Weimar Republic, and voters of the anti-democratic right. <end of section stub>
yea we definantly need a prelude.... wurd. -- LtWinters 00:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to add a topic on D-Day because it was arguably the most important event in the war. Smartguy583 14:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
D-Day is an important event in WWII because it liberated France. (I think). Sure it isn't the most important but it sure ranks up there. Besides, Stalingrad shouldn't even have been fought. Hitler's generals wanted to take over important oil fields that were further below Stalingrad. -- XAM 01:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that it does not deserve a subtopic, and we should keep it as it is. However, I would not be against anyone adding more information to that paragraph for two about it. -- LtWinters 21:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The result of the now archived Good article review was no consensus, keep by default. Just FYI. IvoShandor 11:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Right now we've got the article divided up as such:
That's two "top level" chronology sections and a break down in between.
To improve the article flow, I think we might be better off having those two top leves and four "secondary level" sections:
These four areas are, IMHO, relatively isolated from each other and we could improve readability by not having as many "meanwhile, back on Theatre X..." sections breaking up each area. A (rough) example of what I mean would be something like the following:
I am pretty sure those numbers aren't too correct. I am talking about the casualties in the top right side bar thing. -- XAM 01:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
It just seemed like there were hardly enough Axis casualties. You are probably right but I just wanted to make sure.
I think it is all very simple. Don't say final numbers, give them ranges. For example see here http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm Soviet military losses varies from 6 to 26M people. This is just ridiculous. Wikisib 17:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I looked up two print references. Neither provide overall totals, but they do provide breakdowns, by country and by military/civilian, which can be totalled. John Ellis's World War II: A Statistical Survey lists approximately 45.7M deaths: 14M Allied military, 22.4M Allied civilian, 5.9M Axis military, and 3.4M Axis civilian. The Oxford Companion to World War II lists approximately 49M deaths: 14.2M Allied military, 24M Allied civilian, 7.7M Axis military, and 3.1M Axis civilian. Neither approaches the 60M figure currently listed - let alone the 72M posted on World War II casualties. (A review of the figures on that page, and current discussion on its talk page, suggests that this total is open to debate.) From what I have found so far, any source that lists casualty figures does so with a number of caveats, and the general feeling is that it is impossible to provide truly accurate figures. Everything is an estimate. Given the dearth of reliable statistics, I am not sure how to proceed. Based on my own research, I would be reluctant to put down any figure greater than 50M; I have no solid sources to support a higher figure. The number at World War II casualties seems to have been arrived at by totalling up estimates from a variety of sources. While on the surface this is simple arithmatic - which I myself did to get totals from Ellis and Oxford - I am concerned about the use of multiple sources to arrive at a single figure; I think this borders on original research. - Eron Talk 15:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
EronMain, just to clarify. You totally misunderstood me and I never called anybody's work "ridiculous". "Ridiculous" is the range of numbers (6M-26M) which we get from different sources (this is nobody's fault, this is how it is). My point is that it is not possible to pick a good number in the range of 6-26. Wikisib 20:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The total dead for years was placed at 55 million, both civilian and military. The Russian losses were said to be 26 million on the talk page. I have always heard up to 25 million, both military and civilian. This obviously included those taken by Germans never to be seen again. The consesus is that it is 60 million plus, but people don't want to back up statistics with the fact that they can't back them up with the evidence. 86.149.209.189 22:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)