A fact from WTC Cortlandt station appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 July 2019 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that the WTC Cortlandt subway station in New York City, closed for 17Â years after the
September 11 attacks, cost $181 million to rebuild?
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion. See also:
WikiProject Trains to do list and the
Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
New York City-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City articles
The article says, "One of the Vickers mosaics is preserved in the New York Transit Museum." Is the one in the picture the mentioned one?
Vcohen (
talk)
06:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Sorry, which of my links do you mean? The last one is certainly from this station. Do you mean these are two different boats?
Vcohen (
talk)
18:27, 17 October 2014 (UTC)reply
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At this point, we have a few options for the page title.
This is a situation where it might be better to expand the title a little, as station signage says "World Trade Center".
--
Captian Cavy (
talk)
17:02, 8 September 2018 (UTC)reply
WTC is short for "World Trade Center". Generally we don't use abbreviations to describe the full title of an object unless they are primarily known by their abbreviation, per
WP:ACRONYMTITLE. I don't see any evidence that the "WTC" abbreviation is the proper name of the station (some of the signs and media spell out the full name), so we should use the full "World Trade Center" title. That's also why the previous name of this article was "Cortlandt Street" and not "Cortlandt St.".
epicgenius (
talk)
17:36, 8 September 2018 (UTC)reply
And I see the MTA refers to this station as
"WTC Cortlandt Street". That makes things more confusing. The wall signs say "World Trade Center", the columns say "WTC Cortlandt", and all this time the media have been saying "Cortlandt Street".
epicgenius (
talk)
18:10, 8 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Wow I didn't think the MTA would actually update that data so quickly. But yes, I agree that it should be #4. Also, the source on the article exclusively says WTC Cortlandt and even instructs conductors to not announce it as the fully spelled out "World Trade Center". I do wish the MTA would be consistent with signage, but until we have a decent timeframe to determine a common name, it should be WTC Cortlandt. --Â
rellmerr (
talk page •Â
contribs)02:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Requested move 9 September 2018
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Support. This seems to be the official name preferred by the MTA for the time being. The MTA explicitly told workers to spell out "W-T-C" and that the acronym "WTC Cortlandt" is spelled out on official media and on station name signs. Usually
WP:COMMONNAME (namely "Cortlandt Street") would prevail, but in this case I would say that the name MTA uses is what we should also use.
epicgenius (
talk)
03:08, 9 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Support. This is the way this station is labeled on
the Map. The first part is WTC (as opposed to World Trade Center at the E station), the second part is Cortlandt (as opposed to Cortlandt St at the R/W station), and there is neither dash nor line break between them.
Vcohen (
talk)
18:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Moot point then, if it was never dropped and it's still signed on the platform (which it is). If today's signage still says 71-Continental Avs, the name isn't entirely discontinued, and should be mentioned in the lead as an alternate, not as a former name. Cards84664(talk)16:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)reply
If you're mentioning the alternate names in the lead, you can just change one word ("formerly known as" to "also known as"). The infobox parameters say "Former/other names", not that there's much of a difference in this case. On the other hand, this station was known simply as Cortlandt Street for the past 17 years, so there's that.
epicgenius (
talk)
23:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Support. Only hesitance is that World Trade Center is non-acronymized on the station walls, but this appears to serve as a clear indicator of the station to riders passing by, and it does not have "Cortlandt" in the name. Full support.
BRES2773 (
talk)
18:20, 11 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Those abbreviations are consistent. The E station is listed as "World Trade Center" (not "WTC"), and the R/W station is listed as "Cortlandt St" (not just "Cortlandt").
Vcohen (
talk)
10:54, 12 September 2018 (UTC)reply
True, but we title the R/W station as
Cortlandt Street (BMT Broadway Line). The names on the MTA developer data files are intended for mapping applications where conciseness is key. We don't have to slavishly follow that. Also note that "World Trade Center" is a name with world-wide recognition.--
agr (
talk)
15:36, 12 September 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
GA review (see
here for what the criteria are, and
here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): The article is readable and well-written. b (
MoS for
lead,
layout,
word choice,
fiction, and
lists): The article is generally well-layed out and is effectively summarized in the lede.
a (
reference section): b (citations to
reliable sources): In general, it looks good. I note that there are some appropriately used primary sources and that nycsubway.org seems to be equivalent to a citation of a local historical group. c (
OR): Some things are cited to images that I think would be best cited elsewhere. However, it is only a matter of opening the image and counting what appears, so I think it is acceptable. d (
copyvio and
plagiarism): No issues were found with Earwig.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (
major aspects): No major aspects seem to be missed. b (
focused): Th article seems to be reasonably focused and give due weight to recent events.
Fair representation without bias: This article is about a non-controversial topic, which it presents with a NPOV.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: I found no recent edits indicative of content disputes.
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have
fair use rationales): All images are either appropriately licensed or used with appropriate non-free use rationale. b (
appropriate use with
suitable captions): All images have appropriate captions. However, none of the images have alt-text.
Overall: Overall, it is a very good article.
Pass/Fail:
Requested move 28 May 2019
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support per nom, the fact that "WTC Cortlandt" was available seems to have been missed in the last discussion or editors though it was OK since many others are disambiguated but the guidelines are quite clear that we only disambiguate when necessary and it doesn't seem so here. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
13:00, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd support WTC Cortlandt station, but I need more input.
Oppose - Not this crap again! I remain opposed to this standard, and the rigidity of the enforcement of it for the same reasons I've stated in other discussions! ---------
User:DanTD (
talk)
16:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
In which case
WTC Cortlandt should be converted to a disambiguation page if this isn't the primary topic. I do agree with Epicgenius that the subway station naming conventions need to be created or updated so that they align with the broader consensus
WP:USSTATION and the Wikipedia policy
WP:PRECISION; if they currently don't, that's a
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. I thought we had finally resolved what DanTD likes to call "this crap again" at
WP:USSTATION; there's no reason it shouldn't apply to NYC subway stations rather than some different piecemeal approach. Until someone takes up that task, though, the incremental improvements to the encyclopedia of correcting each one (especially those gaining "Good Article" status) should continue. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
17:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose pending wider discussion: "WTC Cortlandt" is absolutely the wrong name for this article. "WTC Cortlandt station" is probably the right one. But just like with the other stations that led to the WP:USSTATION consensus, this is not a discussion that can be had at a single page. It needs to be a centralized discussion, as epicgenius pointed out.
Pi.1415926535 (
talk)
17:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose pending further discussion about the broad issues. Reviewing the discussions at JHunterJ, I found very little partipacition and multiple editors pushing for an RFC to achieve a wider discussion. I definitely think an RFC would be in order.
StudiesWorld (
talk)
21:10, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Well JHJ is only arguing that we don't redirect a base name to a qualified name (
WP:PRECISION) since if this is the only or primary topic for "WTC Cortlandt" it should be moved there, if its not primary for "WTC Cortlandt" then that should become a DAB page (or article/redirect to another article) if "WTC Cortlandt" isn't the correct name and should be moved to "WTC Cortlandt station" then that would probably be OK but its a bit silly to have a base name redirect to a qualified name. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
21:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
(after ec) As was done
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (US stations)/Archive 2? "This crap again" won't go away because the broader consensus keeps getting accepted in the broader discussions and ignored in the smaller ones. The definition of
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope."
WP:PRECISION and
WP:USSTATION are clear, and since no one has convinced the broader community that they don't apply here, they should be applied here. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
21:19, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
That's the problem with it. It keeps getting accepted, in spite of the fact that most of the stations having their name changed are minor, still face ambiguation, and still lose their identities. In fact, I'm willing to declare that the current standards contradict
WP:PRECISION and
WP:CONSISTENCY-related issues. ---------
User:DanTD (
talk)
22:42, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
But I willing to declare that consistency and precision are in harmony. We consistently title the article before checking to see if a parenthetical qualifier is needed. When needed, we have consistent parenthetical phrases used as qualifiers. When not needed, we consistently don't use the unneeded parenthetical qualifiers. No identity lost. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
20:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. "WTC Cortlandt" is more recognizable (the name most people will call it), natural (reflecting what it's usually called), precise (unambiguously identified), and concise (not longer than necessary to identify), per the
naming criteria (article titles policy). If the naming scheme bothers you, all the more reason to devote your time to implementing
the mass rename agreed upon last year. (not
watching, please {{ping}} as needed) czar10:20, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Support as nominator either "WTC Cortlandt" or "WTC Cortlandt station". Edited my proposal to that effect as well. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
12:29, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The most recognizable names of the NYC Subway stations include train designations, such as WTC Cortlandt (1). We replace trains with lines (such as IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line) in order to use something more stable, but anyway the parentheses are not a disambiguator, they are a part of the name and cannot be omitted.
Vcohen (
talk)
13:08, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Sometimes they are stylized as bullets (having shape and color) and may not be perceived as text, but they are still there. At least in the infobox and on the
official website.
Vcohen (
talk)
14:52, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Sometimes parentheses are stylized as bullets or may not be perceived? No, that's not how parentheses work. If the project wants to "stylize" the names without an unneeded parenthetical disambiguating phrase when there's no ambiguity, that would resolve the
WP:PRECISION issue but possibly still be a
WP:COMMONNAME issue. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
15:16, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose any unilateral deviation from the standard naming convention for NYC subway stations. Either change them all at once (i.e. open a broader discussion) or don't change them at all. Anyways, I think the status quo makes sense because what is notable does not necessarily say anything about what should be the primary topic; see
Talk:Winterfell (Game of Thrones episode)#Requested move 15 April 2019, where the fictional location is the primary topic of
Winterfell but only the episode called "Winterfell" is notable enough for a standalone article. For the NYC subway system take
Buhre Avenue (IRT Pelham Line) for example; the primary topic of
Buhre Avenue ought to be the avenue itself (which doesn't have an article), so readers would be
WP:ASTONISHed to find an article on the subway station in its place. --
King of♥♦♣ â™
03:51, 2 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The unilateral decision was of the NYC subway "naming convention" to deviate from the policy
WP:PRECISION without convincing the broader community, that is, a
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. And no, you can't compel a "no changes at all until you change them all at once" approach. Incremental improvements are still improvements, and if you personally want to finish out the rest of this particular set of improvements, you certainly can. If you don't think the status quo makes sense, that means you disagree with the consensus, which is fine, but doesn't change the consensus until you bring it up at
Wikipedia talk:Article titles and form a new consensus. If "Buhre Avenue" would be an astonishing title for the station, then the obvious (and accepted) solution is to name it
Buhre Avenue station. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
12:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose. Most articles about railway/subway stations tend to have a disambiguator. Unless the name is so obvious that it is a station or transportation complex (
Grand Central Terminal,
Frankford Transportation Center), removing the disambiguator will lead to the inconsistency of some stations having the disambiguator and some without. Few people complain that the disambiguator is extraneous. I am aware of the guideline about disambiguation when necessary, but in our case, it provides consistency, and the rules should be
ignored. So let’s stop worrying about title names and contribute actual meaningful content to this online encyclopedia. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
22:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)reply
If it needs a better title, it needs a better title, not an unneeded disambiguator. This is true for every group of articles: some will need disambiguators and some won't, and we don't force foolish consistency on the ones that don't. So when ignoring the rules would improve the encyclopedia, let's ignore them, but that's not the case here. Let's follow the actual policies and actually improve the encyclopedia. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
12:22, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Here we go again with your failed attempt of "enforcing the rules". Watch this get shut down for the umpteenth time and your attempt to try to force this hand of bureaucracy on others turns into a flop. Better luck next time I guess 😂 —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
16:46, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Consensus you disagree with isn't simply "enforcing the rules" or "bureaucracy". I am hope that the continued attempts to game the system of
WP:CONSENSUS through
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and
WP:FAITACCOMPLI will be corrected. It seemed they had been in the last discussion; they will be eventually, even while you try to make this personal instead of addressing the issue. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
18:09, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
There is no reason to do so. The incorrect closure of this MR precipitated that RfC. This MR can still be closed based on the discussion presented here (and the Wikipedia policies and guidelines in effect). --
JHunterJ (
talk)
15:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Close?
I would like to request that this discussion be closed. There is no consensus to move the page and there hasn't been any consensus for the past 12-13 years to move pages with similar title situations. We are beating a deadhorse and instead about improving the encyclopedia with reputable content we worry about technical nonsense. IAR exists for a reason, and unless certain people stop worrying about these mundane technicalities this place will continue to come up short to bureaucracy. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
23:15, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
@
JHunterJ:You obviously don't know what you're talking about. If we are still discussing this matter now, then there is obviously no consensus. You are taking following every single Wikipedia policy and guideline to heart. Every time this discussion arises, it goes nowhere.
Just let it go already, it's not as serious as you make it out to be. As long as people like you exist it just makes every contributor's lives harder because of users like you that like to wave the bureaucratic finger everywhere. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
18:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
You obviously don't understand
WP:CONSENSUS. By all means, just get on board already, it's not as serious as you make it out to be. As long as people like you exist is just makes every contributor's life harder because of users like you who like to wave the local consensus finger everywhere. (And if you'll stop making it personal, I'll stop illustrating how absurd those arguments are through simple rewording in line to make them line up with the actual project policies.)--
JHunterJ (
talk)
18:28, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
You're a joke and so are your admin skills. Don't even try to dissuade yourself from that notion. This discussion is pointless. Go worry about some users vandalizing or answer to messages on
WP:AN/I and quit acting like you have better judgment on everything, because you don't. Good day to you sir! I'm proposing to have this discussion closed now. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
19:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Argument in favor of the current naming convention for
WP:NYCPT transit articles
Feel free to check out this discussion from 2007 about naming convention conflicts first being brought up
here. Case in point, while the titles may be long, the way the project is doing things now is simple and clean, and people that have decided to contribute have conformed to the project's standards that there are far less ppl challenging it than those who are. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
18:26, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
There seems to be very little on what happened in the station on the day itself aside from the damage substantiated. Was there any injuries or fatalities inside station or was it full evacuated before anything could occur (was it even open at the time)? Some minor details answering these questions would be helpful.
86.176.125.223 (
talk)
21:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)reply
If this is the article the WTC Cortdlandt station, why does the station layout show two other stations? These layout diagrams are already kinds of confusing as it is to then be showing an entire complex of separate stations. In fact, there is a note further down that station that makes clear that there are separately controlled for fares. I get that they are all connected, but that's what the "connections" field is for in a station article infobox.
Criticalthinker (
talk)
04:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)reply
A fact from WTC Cortlandt station appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 July 2019 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that the WTC Cortlandt subway station in New York City, closed for 17Â years after the
September 11 attacks, cost $181 million to rebuild?
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion. See also:
WikiProject Trains to do list and the
Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
New York City-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City articles
The article says, "One of the Vickers mosaics is preserved in the New York Transit Museum." Is the one in the picture the mentioned one?
Vcohen (
talk)
06:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Sorry, which of my links do you mean? The last one is certainly from this station. Do you mean these are two different boats?
Vcohen (
talk)
18:27, 17 October 2014 (UTC)reply
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At this point, we have a few options for the page title.
This is a situation where it might be better to expand the title a little, as station signage says "World Trade Center".
--
Captian Cavy (
talk)
17:02, 8 September 2018 (UTC)reply
WTC is short for "World Trade Center". Generally we don't use abbreviations to describe the full title of an object unless they are primarily known by their abbreviation, per
WP:ACRONYMTITLE. I don't see any evidence that the "WTC" abbreviation is the proper name of the station (some of the signs and media spell out the full name), so we should use the full "World Trade Center" title. That's also why the previous name of this article was "Cortlandt Street" and not "Cortlandt St.".
epicgenius (
talk)
17:36, 8 September 2018 (UTC)reply
And I see the MTA refers to this station as
"WTC Cortlandt Street". That makes things more confusing. The wall signs say "World Trade Center", the columns say "WTC Cortlandt", and all this time the media have been saying "Cortlandt Street".
epicgenius (
talk)
18:10, 8 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Wow I didn't think the MTA would actually update that data so quickly. But yes, I agree that it should be #4. Also, the source on the article exclusively says WTC Cortlandt and even instructs conductors to not announce it as the fully spelled out "World Trade Center". I do wish the MTA would be consistent with signage, but until we have a decent timeframe to determine a common name, it should be WTC Cortlandt. --Â
rellmerr (
talk page •Â
contribs)02:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Requested move 9 September 2018
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Support. This seems to be the official name preferred by the MTA for the time being. The MTA explicitly told workers to spell out "W-T-C" and that the acronym "WTC Cortlandt" is spelled out on official media and on station name signs. Usually
WP:COMMONNAME (namely "Cortlandt Street") would prevail, but in this case I would say that the name MTA uses is what we should also use.
epicgenius (
talk)
03:08, 9 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Support. This is the way this station is labeled on
the Map. The first part is WTC (as opposed to World Trade Center at the E station), the second part is Cortlandt (as opposed to Cortlandt St at the R/W station), and there is neither dash nor line break between them.
Vcohen (
talk)
18:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Moot point then, if it was never dropped and it's still signed on the platform (which it is). If today's signage still says 71-Continental Avs, the name isn't entirely discontinued, and should be mentioned in the lead as an alternate, not as a former name. Cards84664(talk)16:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)reply
If you're mentioning the alternate names in the lead, you can just change one word ("formerly known as" to "also known as"). The infobox parameters say "Former/other names", not that there's much of a difference in this case. On the other hand, this station was known simply as Cortlandt Street for the past 17 years, so there's that.
epicgenius (
talk)
23:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Support. Only hesitance is that World Trade Center is non-acronymized on the station walls, but this appears to serve as a clear indicator of the station to riders passing by, and it does not have "Cortlandt" in the name. Full support.
BRES2773 (
talk)
18:20, 11 September 2018 (UTC)reply
Those abbreviations are consistent. The E station is listed as "World Trade Center" (not "WTC"), and the R/W station is listed as "Cortlandt St" (not just "Cortlandt").
Vcohen (
talk)
10:54, 12 September 2018 (UTC)reply
True, but we title the R/W station as
Cortlandt Street (BMT Broadway Line). The names on the MTA developer data files are intended for mapping applications where conciseness is key. We don't have to slavishly follow that. Also note that "World Trade Center" is a name with world-wide recognition.--
agr (
talk)
15:36, 12 September 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
GA review (see
here for what the criteria are, and
here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): The article is readable and well-written. b (
MoS for
lead,
layout,
word choice,
fiction, and
lists): The article is generally well-layed out and is effectively summarized in the lede.
a (
reference section): b (citations to
reliable sources): In general, it looks good. I note that there are some appropriately used primary sources and that nycsubway.org seems to be equivalent to a citation of a local historical group. c (
OR): Some things are cited to images that I think would be best cited elsewhere. However, it is only a matter of opening the image and counting what appears, so I think it is acceptable. d (
copyvio and
plagiarism): No issues were found with Earwig.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (
major aspects): No major aspects seem to be missed. b (
focused): Th article seems to be reasonably focused and give due weight to recent events.
Fair representation without bias: This article is about a non-controversial topic, which it presents with a NPOV.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: I found no recent edits indicative of content disputes.
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have
fair use rationales): All images are either appropriately licensed or used with appropriate non-free use rationale. b (
appropriate use with
suitable captions): All images have appropriate captions. However, none of the images have alt-text.
Overall: Overall, it is a very good article.
Pass/Fail:
Requested move 28 May 2019
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support per nom, the fact that "WTC Cortlandt" was available seems to have been missed in the last discussion or editors though it was OK since many others are disambiguated but the guidelines are quite clear that we only disambiguate when necessary and it doesn't seem so here. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
13:00, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd support WTC Cortlandt station, but I need more input.
Oppose - Not this crap again! I remain opposed to this standard, and the rigidity of the enforcement of it for the same reasons I've stated in other discussions! ---------
User:DanTD (
talk)
16:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
In which case
WTC Cortlandt should be converted to a disambiguation page if this isn't the primary topic. I do agree with Epicgenius that the subway station naming conventions need to be created or updated so that they align with the broader consensus
WP:USSTATION and the Wikipedia policy
WP:PRECISION; if they currently don't, that's a
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. I thought we had finally resolved what DanTD likes to call "this crap again" at
WP:USSTATION; there's no reason it shouldn't apply to NYC subway stations rather than some different piecemeal approach. Until someone takes up that task, though, the incremental improvements to the encyclopedia of correcting each one (especially those gaining "Good Article" status) should continue. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
17:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose pending wider discussion: "WTC Cortlandt" is absolutely the wrong name for this article. "WTC Cortlandt station" is probably the right one. But just like with the other stations that led to the WP:USSTATION consensus, this is not a discussion that can be had at a single page. It needs to be a centralized discussion, as epicgenius pointed out.
Pi.1415926535 (
talk)
17:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose pending further discussion about the broad issues. Reviewing the discussions at JHunterJ, I found very little partipacition and multiple editors pushing for an RFC to achieve a wider discussion. I definitely think an RFC would be in order.
StudiesWorld (
talk)
21:10, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Well JHJ is only arguing that we don't redirect a base name to a qualified name (
WP:PRECISION) since if this is the only or primary topic for "WTC Cortlandt" it should be moved there, if its not primary for "WTC Cortlandt" then that should become a DAB page (or article/redirect to another article) if "WTC Cortlandt" isn't the correct name and should be moved to "WTC Cortlandt station" then that would probably be OK but its a bit silly to have a base name redirect to a qualified name. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
21:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
(after ec) As was done
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (US stations)/Archive 2? "This crap again" won't go away because the broader consensus keeps getting accepted in the broader discussions and ignored in the smaller ones. The definition of
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope."
WP:PRECISION and
WP:USSTATION are clear, and since no one has convinced the broader community that they don't apply here, they should be applied here. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
21:19, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
That's the problem with it. It keeps getting accepted, in spite of the fact that most of the stations having their name changed are minor, still face ambiguation, and still lose their identities. In fact, I'm willing to declare that the current standards contradict
WP:PRECISION and
WP:CONSISTENCY-related issues. ---------
User:DanTD (
talk)
22:42, 28 May 2019 (UTC)reply
But I willing to declare that consistency and precision are in harmony. We consistently title the article before checking to see if a parenthetical qualifier is needed. When needed, we have consistent parenthetical phrases used as qualifiers. When not needed, we consistently don't use the unneeded parenthetical qualifiers. No identity lost. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
20:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. "WTC Cortlandt" is more recognizable (the name most people will call it), natural (reflecting what it's usually called), precise (unambiguously identified), and concise (not longer than necessary to identify), per the
naming criteria (article titles policy). If the naming scheme bothers you, all the more reason to devote your time to implementing
the mass rename agreed upon last year. (not
watching, please {{ping}} as needed) czar10:20, 29 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Support as nominator either "WTC Cortlandt" or "WTC Cortlandt station". Edited my proposal to that effect as well. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
12:29, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The most recognizable names of the NYC Subway stations include train designations, such as WTC Cortlandt (1). We replace trains with lines (such as IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line) in order to use something more stable, but anyway the parentheses are not a disambiguator, they are a part of the name and cannot be omitted.
Vcohen (
talk)
13:08, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Sometimes they are stylized as bullets (having shape and color) and may not be perceived as text, but they are still there. At least in the infobox and on the
official website.
Vcohen (
talk)
14:52, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Sometimes parentheses are stylized as bullets or may not be perceived? No, that's not how parentheses work. If the project wants to "stylize" the names without an unneeded parenthetical disambiguating phrase when there's no ambiguity, that would resolve the
WP:PRECISION issue but possibly still be a
WP:COMMONNAME issue. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
15:16, 30 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose any unilateral deviation from the standard naming convention for NYC subway stations. Either change them all at once (i.e. open a broader discussion) or don't change them at all. Anyways, I think the status quo makes sense because what is notable does not necessarily say anything about what should be the primary topic; see
Talk:Winterfell (Game of Thrones episode)#Requested move 15 April 2019, where the fictional location is the primary topic of
Winterfell but only the episode called "Winterfell" is notable enough for a standalone article. For the NYC subway system take
Buhre Avenue (IRT Pelham Line) for example; the primary topic of
Buhre Avenue ought to be the avenue itself (which doesn't have an article), so readers would be
WP:ASTONISHed to find an article on the subway station in its place. --
King of♥♦♣ â™
03:51, 2 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The unilateral decision was of the NYC subway "naming convention" to deviate from the policy
WP:PRECISION without convincing the broader community, that is, a
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. And no, you can't compel a "no changes at all until you change them all at once" approach. Incremental improvements are still improvements, and if you personally want to finish out the rest of this particular set of improvements, you certainly can. If you don't think the status quo makes sense, that means you disagree with the consensus, which is fine, but doesn't change the consensus until you bring it up at
Wikipedia talk:Article titles and form a new consensus. If "Buhre Avenue" would be an astonishing title for the station, then the obvious (and accepted) solution is to name it
Buhre Avenue station. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
12:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose. Most articles about railway/subway stations tend to have a disambiguator. Unless the name is so obvious that it is a station or transportation complex (
Grand Central Terminal,
Frankford Transportation Center), removing the disambiguator will lead to the inconsistency of some stations having the disambiguator and some without. Few people complain that the disambiguator is extraneous. I am aware of the guideline about disambiguation when necessary, but in our case, it provides consistency, and the rules should be
ignored. So let’s stop worrying about title names and contribute actual meaningful content to this online encyclopedia. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
22:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)reply
If it needs a better title, it needs a better title, not an unneeded disambiguator. This is true for every group of articles: some will need disambiguators and some won't, and we don't force foolish consistency on the ones that don't. So when ignoring the rules would improve the encyclopedia, let's ignore them, but that's not the case here. Let's follow the actual policies and actually improve the encyclopedia. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
12:22, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Here we go again with your failed attempt of "enforcing the rules". Watch this get shut down for the umpteenth time and your attempt to try to force this hand of bureaucracy on others turns into a flop. Better luck next time I guess 😂 —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
16:46, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Consensus you disagree with isn't simply "enforcing the rules" or "bureaucracy". I am hope that the continued attempts to game the system of
WP:CONSENSUS through
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and
WP:FAITACCOMPLI will be corrected. It seemed they had been in the last discussion; they will be eventually, even while you try to make this personal instead of addressing the issue. --
JHunterJ (
talk)
18:09, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
There is no reason to do so. The incorrect closure of this MR precipitated that RfC. This MR can still be closed based on the discussion presented here (and the Wikipedia policies and guidelines in effect). --
JHunterJ (
talk)
15:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Close?
I would like to request that this discussion be closed. There is no consensus to move the page and there hasn't been any consensus for the past 12-13 years to move pages with similar title situations. We are beating a deadhorse and instead about improving the encyclopedia with reputable content we worry about technical nonsense. IAR exists for a reason, and unless certain people stop worrying about these mundane technicalities this place will continue to come up short to bureaucracy. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
23:15, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
@
JHunterJ:You obviously don't know what you're talking about. If we are still discussing this matter now, then there is obviously no consensus. You are taking following every single Wikipedia policy and guideline to heart. Every time this discussion arises, it goes nowhere.
Just let it go already, it's not as serious as you make it out to be. As long as people like you exist it just makes every contributor's lives harder because of users like you that like to wave the bureaucratic finger everywhere. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
18:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
You obviously don't understand
WP:CONSENSUS. By all means, just get on board already, it's not as serious as you make it out to be. As long as people like you exist is just makes every contributor's life harder because of users like you who like to wave the local consensus finger everywhere. (And if you'll stop making it personal, I'll stop illustrating how absurd those arguments are through simple rewording in line to make them line up with the actual project policies.)--
JHunterJ (
talk)
18:28, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
You're a joke and so are your admin skills. Don't even try to dissuade yourself from that notion. This discussion is pointless. Go worry about some users vandalizing or answer to messages on
WP:AN/I and quit acting like you have better judgment on everything, because you don't. Good day to you sir! I'm proposing to have this discussion closed now. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
19:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Argument in favor of the current naming convention for
WP:NYCPT transit articles
Feel free to check out this discussion from 2007 about naming convention conflicts first being brought up
here. Case in point, while the titles may be long, the way the project is doing things now is simple and clean, and people that have decided to contribute have conformed to the project's standards that there are far less ppl challenging it than those who are. —
LRG5784 (
talk·contribs·email)
18:26, 5 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
There seems to be very little on what happened in the station on the day itself aside from the damage substantiated. Was there any injuries or fatalities inside station or was it full evacuated before anything could occur (was it even open at the time)? Some minor details answering these questions would be helpful.
86.176.125.223 (
talk)
21:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)reply
If this is the article the WTC Cortdlandt station, why does the station layout show two other stations? These layout diagrams are already kinds of confusing as it is to then be showing an entire complex of separate stations. In fact, there is a note further down that station that makes clear that there are separately controlled for fares. I get that they are all connected, but that's what the "connections" field is for in a station article infobox.
Criticalthinker (
talk)
04:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)reply