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![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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![]() | On 18 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from World Central Kitchen drone strikes to World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | A fact from World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 May 2024 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
The result was: promoted by
PrimalMustelid
talk
15:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 37 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.Makeandtoss ( talk) 13:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC).
My objection is now outdated. Events and sources are moving. starship .paint ( RUN) 02:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
@
Makeandtoss: - you are assuming too much of the sources. (1) Bellingcat does not say three consecutive strikes, they simply say Israeli airstrike, Bellingcat cannot confirm that it was missiles or that they were even fired by a drone: Although not possible to be certain without fragments of the munition itself, the WCK vehicles bear the hallmarks of a precision strike by inert or low-yield missiles ... In order to successfully accomplish a laser guided strike it is necessary for a platform, such as a drone, to “illuminate” the target with a laser while the missile is launched.(2) BBC writes that the evidence suggests there was more than one strike, but this is not confirmation, BBC's experts also do not confirm that it was a drone strike: Chris Cobb-Smith, a former British Army officer and ex-UN weapons inspector, said the attack was probably the result of drone-launched Spike missiles ... Justin Crump, a former British Army officer who runs Sibylline - a risk intelligence company - agreed. He says the attack "was likely drone-launched and targeted". He added the strike had probably been caused by a missile, rather than a bomb or mortar.(3) Al Jazeera goes the furthest, their article text says The shelling targeted three vehicles belonging to WCK, one at a time, but if you read the article text, there is no mention of drone missiles, instead they say: Analysis of images of the second and third targeted vehicles showed signs of a projectile entering from the top and exiting through the bottom, suggesting that the cars were targeted from the air.Now, Al Jazeera's image does mention "drone strikes" and missiles, but I find it peculiar that they didn't mention (or even attempt to explain) it in the article text. The sources are simply weaker than you portray them to be. None of them confirm, all of them are simply suggesting / probably / likely etc. starship .paint ( RUN) 11:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC) |
Can I suggest some edits to the hook to make it clearer what happened? I'd suggest something like Humanitarian and aid organizations suspended their operations in the Gaza Strip after seven World Central Kitchen aid workers were killed when their marked cars on a preapproved route were bombed by Israeli drones. I think its really important to make clear they were in marked cars, they were also on a route approved by the Israeli military. Makeandtoss what do you think? Also have any additional sources been published that would resolve the dissagreement above? If not maybe a third party could be involved to help resolve if the sourcing meets Wikipedia's rules. John Cummings ( talk) 13:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Please note that this is also nominated at ITN. It can only reach the main page through one of the possible venues. At this point, there isn't consensus to post to ITN, but that can change. Schwede 66 02:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Starship.paint: @ John Cummings: Thanks for commenting. Starship.paint, building on our discussion on the talk page, I think we can both agree to this ALT1 version: ... that the attack on World Central Kitchen convoy in the Gaza Strip, which killed seven aid workers, was likely a result of three consecutive missiles fired by an Israeli drone? Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Makeandtoss, 4meter4, John Cummings, and Narutolovehinata5: I've hatted my objection above due to recent events: the IDF's admission, which I believe supports this hook: starship .paint ( RUN) 02:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)@ FortunateSons: - forgot to ping. starship .paint ( RUN) 02:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
ALT2 ... that the Israel Defense Forces have accepted responsibility for killing seven World Central Kitchen aid workers in targeted drone strikes that destroyed the aid workers' cars, one by one? Source 1: Associated Press Source 2: CBS News Source 3: BBC News starship .paint ( RUN) 02:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
A severe earthquake strikes near Hualien City, Taiwan ... In Syria, an Israeli airstrike kills 16 people at the Iranian consulate in Damascus, including brigadier general Mohammad Reza Zahedi ... A bus falls from a bridge in Limpopo, South Africa, killing 45 people ... The Francis Scott Key Bridge in the U.S. city of Baltimore collapses after being hit by a container ship.starship .paint ( RUN) 06:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
There are also moments, like the last few days in the Middle East, when events leave belligerents and their allies at a crossroads with big decisions to make ... The killing of foreign aid workers in Gaza might finally exhaust the considerable patience of Israel's allies, led by the United States.and Reuters:
the killing of a group of aid workers by an Israeli air strike summed up both the dire humanitarian crisis and the lack of a clear way out of a conflict that is leaving Israel increasingly isolated. The attack on Monday night that killed seven staff of the World Central Kitchen (WCK) aid group, including six foreigners, has angered even some of Israel's closest allies, adding to growing pressure for an end to the fighting.starship .paint ( RUN) 07:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) Nasssa Nser 01:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
World Central Kitchen drone strikes → World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack – More descriptive title. This was discussed in the recently closed above discussion. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 23:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Canada contacts Israel after aid agency says water truck bombed in 'targeted' attack. I don't know of any other entry documenting Israeli attacks against aid workers or aid infrastructure. Does this belong here? Peleio Aquiles ( talk) 21:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I earlier restored Category:Israeli war crimes in the Israel–Hamas war to the article after it was removed citing WP:LPCRIME (? Biographies of living persons sub-section). My restoration has been reverted, now citing WP:VERIFY. To stave off further ping-pong, make your case here. My opinion: the Biographies of Living persons guidelines are not helpful in this case so we can put that aside -- the article is not a biography and the incident can fall under War Crimes without prejudice to any person who might be named in the article. War crimes are a state thing, they don't have to be individual.
So that takes us to Verifiable. The facts are not really in dispute, are they? The IDF have admitted some, the events are among the better-reported of the last few months. The facts are Verfied / Verifiable. The dispute is whether they can be categorised as above. The first and third parts, not in question either. A thing committed by Israeli forces, during the period being called here Israel-Hamas war.
Is it a war crime, then? Killing of non-combatants is a war crime, yes? As is the denial of food. The facts are not in question.
The only objection appears to be the lack of a (completed?) criminal process. That seems to me to be an unrealistic barrier that would exclude many things that would be uncontroversially described as war crimes. Aside from that, there is an (more than one?) ongoing war crimes case, and this may well have been cited in one of its hearings.
In summary:
I have (well, am about to) therefore (re-)restored the category pending discussion here. Chaikney ( talk) 16:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
![]() | On 18 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from World Central Kitchen drone strikes to World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | A fact from World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 May 2024 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
The result was: promoted by
PrimalMustelid
talk
15:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 37 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.Makeandtoss ( talk) 13:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC).
My objection is now outdated. Events and sources are moving. starship .paint ( RUN) 02:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
@
Makeandtoss: - you are assuming too much of the sources. (1) Bellingcat does not say three consecutive strikes, they simply say Israeli airstrike, Bellingcat cannot confirm that it was missiles or that they were even fired by a drone: Although not possible to be certain without fragments of the munition itself, the WCK vehicles bear the hallmarks of a precision strike by inert or low-yield missiles ... In order to successfully accomplish a laser guided strike it is necessary for a platform, such as a drone, to “illuminate” the target with a laser while the missile is launched.(2) BBC writes that the evidence suggests there was more than one strike, but this is not confirmation, BBC's experts also do not confirm that it was a drone strike: Chris Cobb-Smith, a former British Army officer and ex-UN weapons inspector, said the attack was probably the result of drone-launched Spike missiles ... Justin Crump, a former British Army officer who runs Sibylline - a risk intelligence company - agreed. He says the attack "was likely drone-launched and targeted". He added the strike had probably been caused by a missile, rather than a bomb or mortar.(3) Al Jazeera goes the furthest, their article text says The shelling targeted three vehicles belonging to WCK, one at a time, but if you read the article text, there is no mention of drone missiles, instead they say: Analysis of images of the second and third targeted vehicles showed signs of a projectile entering from the top and exiting through the bottom, suggesting that the cars were targeted from the air.Now, Al Jazeera's image does mention "drone strikes" and missiles, but I find it peculiar that they didn't mention (or even attempt to explain) it in the article text. The sources are simply weaker than you portray them to be. None of them confirm, all of them are simply suggesting / probably / likely etc. starship .paint ( RUN) 11:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC) |
Can I suggest some edits to the hook to make it clearer what happened? I'd suggest something like Humanitarian and aid organizations suspended their operations in the Gaza Strip after seven World Central Kitchen aid workers were killed when their marked cars on a preapproved route were bombed by Israeli drones. I think its really important to make clear they were in marked cars, they were also on a route approved by the Israeli military. Makeandtoss what do you think? Also have any additional sources been published that would resolve the dissagreement above? If not maybe a third party could be involved to help resolve if the sourcing meets Wikipedia's rules. John Cummings ( talk) 13:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Please note that this is also nominated at ITN. It can only reach the main page through one of the possible venues. At this point, there isn't consensus to post to ITN, but that can change. Schwede 66 02:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Starship.paint: @ John Cummings: Thanks for commenting. Starship.paint, building on our discussion on the talk page, I think we can both agree to this ALT1 version: ... that the attack on World Central Kitchen convoy in the Gaza Strip, which killed seven aid workers, was likely a result of three consecutive missiles fired by an Israeli drone? Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Makeandtoss, 4meter4, John Cummings, and Narutolovehinata5: I've hatted my objection above due to recent events: the IDF's admission, which I believe supports this hook: starship .paint ( RUN) 02:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)@ FortunateSons: - forgot to ping. starship .paint ( RUN) 02:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
ALT2 ... that the Israel Defense Forces have accepted responsibility for killing seven World Central Kitchen aid workers in targeted drone strikes that destroyed the aid workers' cars, one by one? Source 1: Associated Press Source 2: CBS News Source 3: BBC News starship .paint ( RUN) 02:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
A severe earthquake strikes near Hualien City, Taiwan ... In Syria, an Israeli airstrike kills 16 people at the Iranian consulate in Damascus, including brigadier general Mohammad Reza Zahedi ... A bus falls from a bridge in Limpopo, South Africa, killing 45 people ... The Francis Scott Key Bridge in the U.S. city of Baltimore collapses after being hit by a container ship.starship .paint ( RUN) 06:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
There are also moments, like the last few days in the Middle East, when events leave belligerents and their allies at a crossroads with big decisions to make ... The killing of foreign aid workers in Gaza might finally exhaust the considerable patience of Israel's allies, led by the United States.and Reuters:
the killing of a group of aid workers by an Israeli air strike summed up both the dire humanitarian crisis and the lack of a clear way out of a conflict that is leaving Israel increasingly isolated. The attack on Monday night that killed seven staff of the World Central Kitchen (WCK) aid group, including six foreigners, has angered even some of Israel's closest allies, adding to growing pressure for an end to the fighting.starship .paint ( RUN) 07:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) Nasssa Nser 01:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
World Central Kitchen drone strikes → World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack – More descriptive title. This was discussed in the recently closed above discussion. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 23:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Canada contacts Israel after aid agency says water truck bombed in 'targeted' attack. I don't know of any other entry documenting Israeli attacks against aid workers or aid infrastructure. Does this belong here? Peleio Aquiles ( talk) 21:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I earlier restored Category:Israeli war crimes in the Israel–Hamas war to the article after it was removed citing WP:LPCRIME (? Biographies of living persons sub-section). My restoration has been reverted, now citing WP:VERIFY. To stave off further ping-pong, make your case here. My opinion: the Biographies of Living persons guidelines are not helpful in this case so we can put that aside -- the article is not a biography and the incident can fall under War Crimes without prejudice to any person who might be named in the article. War crimes are a state thing, they don't have to be individual.
So that takes us to Verifiable. The facts are not really in dispute, are they? The IDF have admitted some, the events are among the better-reported of the last few months. The facts are Verfied / Verifiable. The dispute is whether they can be categorised as above. The first and third parts, not in question either. A thing committed by Israeli forces, during the period being called here Israel-Hamas war.
Is it a war crime, then? Killing of non-combatants is a war crime, yes? As is the denial of food. The facts are not in question.
The only objection appears to be the lack of a (completed?) criminal process. That seems to me to be an unrealistic barrier that would exclude many things that would be uncontroversially described as war crimes. Aside from that, there is an (more than one?) ongoing war crimes case, and this may well have been cited in one of its hearings.
In summary:
I have (well, am about to) therefore (re-)restored the category pending discussion here. Chaikney ( talk) 16:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)