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It is not clear what user:PBurns3711 objects to in my edit:
Perhaps concerns could be discussed here? MikeHobday 07:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Hobday has gone all over wikipedia spreading his animal rights advocacy and it is not needed here. This post is about working terriers and not about a specific law in a specific country. As to the question of whether terrier work in humane or whether fox are at historical record populations in the UK, perhaps he should read "Running With the Fox" by David MacDonald, who is the UK best red fox biologist. The book is widely available, and in it MacDonald notes that "If hunting stopped, the same number of foxes, or even more, would be killed by people using other methods such as traps, poison, snares or night-shooting," as most fox that are purposely terminated in the UK are on bird-shoot estates where the fox is in direct competition with the "excess" birds released into the wild. As MacDonald notes, hunters are willing to pay £10 a bird -- fox are not. —Preceding
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PBurns3711 (
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There is already a Wiki entry on the U.K. Hunting Act and on Foxh Hunting legiation, and another one here is not needed and redundant. If you want to create a separate Wiki entry on hunting laws all over the world or the hunting debate in the U.K., please feel free to do so -- that seems to be your expertise -- but that is not the topic of this entry nor an area in which you have any expertise. For the record, terrier work is practiced all over the world not just in the U.K., which is exactly why the unpopular and loophole-riddled laws of one small country and its advocates are irrelevant here.—Preceding
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PBurns3711 (
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I have added a simple link to the "Fox hunting legislation" section on Wiki, and that's the end of it. Your characterization of fox hunting as largely illegal in the UK is a lie, as you well know as Public Relations Director for the so-called "League Against Cruel Sports." In fact, terrier work is entirely legal in the U.K. (if regulated the same as everything else from driving to shooting), and continues unabated. I will not even mention the significant numbers of fox that are shot or or snared in the U.K. I am a bit astounded that you seem confused about the difference between mounted hunts and terrier work -- a good sign you know very little about either one. The fact that you do not know that fox is the most widely spread canid in the world, and is worked with terriers in Canada, Australia, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Russia, Finland, etc., as well as the U.S. and the U.K. is astounding. No wonder the Hunting Act legislation is such an unworkable mess in the U.K.!
Thanks for adding these. I plan to remove the 500 vet survey because it relates to an opinion on hunting with hounds, not with terriers and therefore seems irrelevant to this article. MikeHobday 10:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove the reference to the Letter from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to the Burns Report on Hunting for a simple reason: You are entirely wrong on every count. Please read the ENTIRE letter at >> http://www.huntfacts.com/veterinary_opinion_on_hunting_.htm and note that is quite explicitly (and in detail) talks about terrier work.
Mike Hobday, you knowledge of working terriers seems as close to zero as your predecessor at the "League Against Cruel Sports" who, upon getting an education, went to the other side (as did two previous Executive Directors/Chairmen. As Former LACS Public Relations director Miles Cooper noted in an interview last year (see : http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/392/80561.html)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by PBurns3711 ( talk • contribs)
I've returned the welfare issue to the lead, and restored the section about legislation in the UK, because these aspects are clearly a major part of the narrative about working terriers. Any article that left them out would be very one-sided. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have left the basics of the welfare issue and a link to the controversy in the intro. As it was written before the intro had a plug for an argument made by one side of the fox hunting issue (which is not what this entry is about anyway). Fox hunting is only a small fraction of working terrier work, and working terrier work in the UK is a fraction of working terrier work. To argue that because a very vocal group in one small country is very much opposed to certain activities is not germane to the introduction of an article which is devoted to describing a class of dogs. As a example take a look at the article on lever action rifles. The group of people opposed to gun ownership is much larger than that opposed to fox hunting. Should this article contain a summary of anti-gun positions? Should it be in the introduction? I am sure that for some the gun control " thing is infact the main issue when it comes to this subject". There is no such information on the Foxhound page which is much more directly related to fox hunting. Why is it so fundamental here?-- Counsel 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The claim that terrier work in the course of fox hunting is "fox baiting" is simply wrong.-- Counsel 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You have correctly argued for an expansion of Foxhound, not a diminution of this article. Grace Note 05:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is already an entry on the Hunting Act of 2004, yet a summary of the entire law has been included here. I am not a British lawyer so I cannot comment whether it is correct, however, it is not necessary. I spend all day reading laws. I happen to like the law, but including a complete discription of the law of England is not appropriate. Are we to include the laws of Virginia, Washington, Pennsylvania, France, etc? Such an article would be unwieldy. I will leave it in for now, but I think it would be better handled with a link to the entry on the law.-- Counsel 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
First, this article does not talk about a "class of dog" in the sense that a "poodle" is a class of dog. It talks about a use of certain types of dogs. To chase "quarry". This sets a context for these dogs (the matter of fact tone suggests approval of this use of a dog, as does, very much so, that the first requirement for a working dog is that someone should work it!). Describing what the dogs do as "work" is strongly biased to a positive view of it. I do not strongly object to this, although it could be rephrased into a "voice" that took things less for granted.
Second, many readers will not automatically realise that one is talking about dogs that could be used in fox hunting, yet this is primarily what they are used for at least in the UK. The article largely discusses terrier work in the UK, framing its history in terms of enclosure, which is not an issue in the States or elsewhere, because enclosure practices differed in other places. So the intro should note this, and having done so, making note in some detail why it is controversial (not just that it is) serves to balance out a piece that is far too sympathetic to one POV.
Third, the article on the Hunting Act is not specific on this issue, and it's appropriate to give it in some detail (if it is appropriate to go into as much detail about terrier work in the UK, which the article does). You should either slash the article to its generic elements and put the slashings into an article on Working terriers in the United Kingdom or accept that given the form of the discussion, a focus on UK responses is appropriate. Grace Note 05:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the claim about the fox population having increased in the UK, because this source says otherwise. David McDonald's book was published in 1987, and so is out of date; also, there was no page number so it'd be hard to check exactly what he said. I also removed the claim about all species hunted by terriers having increased, because the first source didn't say it, and the second two links went to a personal website, terrierman.com. We're not allowed to use those as sources unless the owner of the site has some widely acknowledged expertise, preferably professional. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that the suggestion that an article on working terriers in the UK be created is not a bad one. This would allow for a general article on what a working terrier is and then one that could discuss issues in a country specific venue as there are loads of country specific issues. This might not solve the problem however, as I am sure that LACS and others concerned for the welfare of foxes are not only concerned about those foxes that drop their H's. Surely there would be concern for american foxes even if there is not a similarly active social/political movement. This would also make the lenghty exposition of laws in that particular jurisdiction more appropriate.
Read the article on animal baiting. I have not contributed to that one. Baiting is an activitiy were the animal is chained or confined by people and the set upon by dogs, usually for gambling purposes. This activity is distinguishable. Dog fighting is similarly not included here. While a law may address both, this article is not aimed at any particular law, it is about hunting not fighting or baiting. Ideally, a hunting terrier will have no contact with the quarry, but will bolt the animal or stop the animal in a sette and bay allowing the terrierman to dig to the animal.
I believe that your concern that the artice states that dogs "should be worked" is misplaced. I believe that this was written as means of distinguishing working terriers from pet or show dogs. The arguement is often made that a Border Terrier is not a "working terrier" by virtue of being of that breed. It only a working terrier should it be worked. I agree that it could be written more skillfully to avoid the appearance of advocacy.
The article on the Australian Cattle Dog makes the point that these dogs, being highly intelligent, require continual mental stimulation or they will develop problems. IMHO, the "should be worked" sentence is made here in the same context. Old_Wombat ( talk) 08:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I submit that this article is about a class of dogs in the sense that Draft horse is an article about a class of horse. That article states that a draft horse "is a large horse bred for hard, heavy tasks such as ploughing and farm labour". I have little doubt that in today's mechanized world many would be opposed to forcing a horse to perform hard labor. Why do we not see similar polemics in the intro to that article. The article certainly makes it sound as though breeding horses for this purpose is a good thing. The article on axes states the following "Stone axes are quite efficient tools; using one, it takes about 10 minutes to fell a hardwood ash tree of 10 cm diameter, one to two hours for an ash of 30 cm diameter." I know that many would consider felling a hardwood tree to be a bad thing. Given the fact that deforestation threatens the lives of millions of people, it is clearly a more important issue than a hunting ban. If things continue as they are, London may be underwater, yet we do not preface the entry on axes with such information. We cannot add sections on every activity which is opposed by some which states "some people don't like this". I do think that given the space in current political discourse allocated to welfare issues in hunting, some reference is appropriate, but the introduction is not the place.
Just as the intro to lever action rifles does not contain a gun control warning or the intro to axe does not contain a deforestation warning, the issues related to animal welfare should be in a section on animal welfare not the introduction-- Counsel 18:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
To my mind, the key remaining problem with the article is the separation of the statement "over 500 members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons agree that it is a humane way to reduce fox numbers" from the discussion of the welfare issue in the controversy section. Not sure how to address this, but these issues are linked. MikeHobday 22:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Terrier work is entirely legal in the UK and in Scotland. See the law,
"A person commits an offence if he hunts a wild mammal with a dog, unless his hunting is exempt." (s1) The exemptions are quite limited and can be viewed at our article on the act or in the schedules attached to the act. Grace Note 03:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Do we have any reliable sources for the following claims? SlimVirgin (talk) 09:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Terriers that rat or bush rabbits or work wild game in brush piles or barns are not working terriers, but "sporting terriers" — a term that encompasses a wide variety of work not done underground. A terrier is considered a working terrier only when it disappears underground and out of sight, and when it is dug to by someone with a shovel, or when the quarry is allowed to bolt free or to a net. A terrier is not a working terrier if it is working only artificial earths, such as those used at American earthdog trials.
How can anyone claim, as a previous version of this article did, that "[t]errier work ... does not include dog fighting or animal baiting," when it clearly does include that, according to the sources? This article has to reflect what reliable sources say about the issue and that includes animal protection groups. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Parts of this are written in a slightly unencyclopedic tone, but I actually like it — particularly: " ... [L]arger dogs ... are more likely to find themselves jammed in a den pipe, face to face with the quarry, and unable to move forward or backward. Nothing good can come from such a situation." Indeed not! :-D SlimVirgin (talk) 09:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The place to put controversy is not in the introduction, and in this case, the text added was factually wrong on several fronts. I have left in a brief section on the "controversy" in the UK, but the law as quoted was simply wrong and demonstrably so.
As to the differences between a sporting terrier and a working terrier, this is spelled out quite clearly by both Jocelyn Lucas and Brian Plummer and these are well-understood terms in the working terrier community the world over. I would also recommend these two authors to anyone who wants to know what terrier work is -- and it not. -- PBurns3711
Dude, you don't even bother to address the issues on this talkpage. I'm going to be reinserting that section and I urge you not to take it out again. The place to put the controversy is absolutely in the opening section, as I discuss at length above. The law as quoted is the law as it is spelled out in the Act. You might not like it but it is the law. This article is not written for "the working terrier community [sic] the world over", but for laypeople, some of whom are not sympathetic with the POV you are pushing here. If you feel there are factual faults, place them here. If you simply remove the text, you are liable to run into trouble. Grace Note 13:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have read the discussion section completely, and the opposition to SlimVirgin's edits GraceNotes's edit are pretty well spelled out by Counsel. As he/she notes, there is already a section on Wiki on The Hunting Act, fox hunting, etc. and most terrier work is not done in the U.K. The fact that neither writer seems to know what "baiting" is suggests a basic lack of knowledge about the topic addressed here, and the "Dude" reference suggests a very young age. What seems to be going on here is a "revert war" sparked by a very young and not very well-informed person who knows nothing about terriers or terrier work.
SlimVirgin and GraceNotes should be aware of the three-revert rule on Wiki to avoid being blocked. [4] 66.208.50.14PBurns3711
Here is the rub: The longer introduction contains a general overview of the animal welfare argument. This is not an article about the controversy. The introduction should be a general overview of Working Terriers. The longer introduction that you favor does not state that there is a controversy, it provides portions of the arguments for and against. This is incomplete AND overinclusive for an introduction. The introduction as written before, which was put together by persons on both sides of the issue and discussed on this page states clearly that there is a controversy, provides a link, and makes clear what the "Controversy in the UK" Section will be about. I am going replace the longer "arguement outline" introduction with the shorter "Controversy link" introduction that was discussed here because it is the introduction that was put together through discussion. I do, however, appreciate your discussing it here and I have added a clause stating that the controversy is over animal welfare as this was not clear before. I think that your argument that this is a page as much about a technique as it is about a class of dog is persuasive. I propose a few compromise ideas.
SlimVirgin you seem to know very little about terrier work, which is fine, but the proper way to learn is not to delete text while spray-painting a section with anti-hunting, animal rights rhetoric heavily centered on the UK debates about fox hunting or the Hunting Act, all of which are deeply coverered on other Wiki entries. As noted earlier, most terrier work does not occur in the UK, and terrier work is legal in most countries where it is practiced, including in the UK. - PBurns3711
Information such as "The British National Working Terrier Federation denies that underground fighting is an issue, arguing that the terrier's role is to locate, bark, and flush out the hunted animals, not attack them" is not general overview of terrier work. It is completely in-the-weeds detail and is not appropriate in the introduction. It should be in the controversy section. Perhaps if this were a UK specific article. What the British National Working Terrier Federation has to say makes no difference in 90% of the world. I am not going to pull it immediatly to avoid a further revert war, but I am interested to hear what other editors have to say. I am alone here?-- Counsel 22:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for asking again. We have been moving rapidly from one argument to the next and not everything gets answered. I read the section on the lead. I think that stating that a controversy exists with respect to this activity based upon concern over animal welfare, is capable of standing on its own. It makes clear that there is disagreement and what those opposed to the activity dislike. The article should be an overview of working terriers not an overview of the controversy in one country. When the intro goes further and selects specific arguments from the public discourse in one country, it does not stand on its own as it only includes portions of the arguments for and against. Once you take the step toward outlining specific arguments significantly more must be included to make the presentation complete. This complete presentation should take place in a section devoted to the controversy. If this were an article about the controversy, then a summary of the various positions might be necessary, but not here.-- Counsel 06:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I would agree. One of the problems here is that those opposed to hunting have been ensuring that this article aims at those activities which they find most objectionable. Hence the removal of the information stating that this article does not deal with baiting and dog fighting. Those who are most intent upon seeing the arguments against hunting with terriers spelled out in the introduction seem to be doing so in the context of it being a part of Fox hunting. Am I wrong that this is the form of hunting that has produced the greatest animosity in the UK. The vast majority of terrier work in the US involves ground hogs, raccoons, and opossums. The introduction here seems to make ti sound as though terrierwork involves primarily the hunting of Fox and Badger.-- Counsel 21:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that that intro will work. I added "or capture".-- Counsel 22:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The idea that those engaged in terrier hunting are morons is part of the problem. This is simply not a dispute between those who are interested in animal welfare and those who could'nt care less. You might be suprised how much effort hunters who have contributed to this page have spent in public campaigning for more ethical treatment of hunted animals. The idea that this is an activity involving only troglodites who do it only for the purpose of watching an animal fight is such a gross oversimplification that it hardly bears responding to, but this seems to be fueling some of the disagreement over how this entry should be layed out.
It seems that many who hold the view above assume that if left unmolested by the hunter, the quarry involved would merrily live out his days and pass quietly in some "natural" way. The truth is that animals in the wild die particularly unpleasant deaths as a rule. They will either die slowly of starvation and sickness, be killed by a predator when they become weak, or run over by a motorist out for a drive. In none of these cases is the animal likely to be dealt the relatively quick death that the hunter or hounds deal out unless it is luckily struck perfectly by the car. Alternative to hunting animals for population control are the use of traps and poison. Neither of these discriminates between young and old or those with young. A hunter, once the quarry is discovered, often has the option of killing or relocating a problem animal or leaving a mother with young. It is very much an issue of focus on the individual or focus on the population.
I do not think that those opposed to hunting are morons, I just think that some of the assumptions upon which there arguements are based may be flawed. The situation for a bayed animal in a stop end sette is likely stessful, but the selective process of hunting places less stress on the population. In the Eastern United States, the number of deer struck by vehicles often varies year to year almost perfectly in step with the number of hunting tags filled. I think that hunters, who tend to select older males who have seen the majority of their reprocutive life, are a better check on this population that the randomness of car bumpers with the resulting injury to people and property. What I am saying is that those maintaining pro-hunting positions are not doing out of a lack of concern for animal welfare, but rather a different interpretation of it. Those who assume that there is no consideration given to the quarry are missing part of the argument.
We are not going to settle this here, but I felt compelled to respond at least in part.-- Counsel 04:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
As of 16 February 2008, the lead sentences read:
"Goes to ground," "formidable quarry," "earthdog trials?" I have no idea what any of these terms refer to. What does it mean to "rat" or to "bush" or to "work wild game?" We need a lot more context and wikilinks; remember that our articles should be geared toward the general audience. WP:SOFIXIT? I'd rewrite it myself, but I know nothing about dogs and don't know where to start.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 15:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
OK I added definitions, better? Hafwyn ( talk) 00:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Clarify that the chest width (span or circumference) not the height is what defines the working terrier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hafwyn ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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It is not clear what user:PBurns3711 objects to in my edit:
Perhaps concerns could be discussed here? MikeHobday 07:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Hobday has gone all over wikipedia spreading his animal rights advocacy and it is not needed here. This post is about working terriers and not about a specific law in a specific country. As to the question of whether terrier work in humane or whether fox are at historical record populations in the UK, perhaps he should read "Running With the Fox" by David MacDonald, who is the UK best red fox biologist. The book is widely available, and in it MacDonald notes that "If hunting stopped, the same number of foxes, or even more, would be killed by people using other methods such as traps, poison, snares or night-shooting," as most fox that are purposely terminated in the UK are on bird-shoot estates where the fox is in direct competition with the "excess" birds released into the wild. As MacDonald notes, hunters are willing to pay £10 a bird -- fox are not. —Preceding
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PBurns3711 (
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There is already a Wiki entry on the U.K. Hunting Act and on Foxh Hunting legiation, and another one here is not needed and redundant. If you want to create a separate Wiki entry on hunting laws all over the world or the hunting debate in the U.K., please feel free to do so -- that seems to be your expertise -- but that is not the topic of this entry nor an area in which you have any expertise. For the record, terrier work is practiced all over the world not just in the U.K., which is exactly why the unpopular and loophole-riddled laws of one small country and its advocates are irrelevant here.—Preceding
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I have added a simple link to the "Fox hunting legislation" section on Wiki, and that's the end of it. Your characterization of fox hunting as largely illegal in the UK is a lie, as you well know as Public Relations Director for the so-called "League Against Cruel Sports." In fact, terrier work is entirely legal in the U.K. (if regulated the same as everything else from driving to shooting), and continues unabated. I will not even mention the significant numbers of fox that are shot or or snared in the U.K. I am a bit astounded that you seem confused about the difference between mounted hunts and terrier work -- a good sign you know very little about either one. The fact that you do not know that fox is the most widely spread canid in the world, and is worked with terriers in Canada, Australia, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Russia, Finland, etc., as well as the U.S. and the U.K. is astounding. No wonder the Hunting Act legislation is such an unworkable mess in the U.K.!
Thanks for adding these. I plan to remove the 500 vet survey because it relates to an opinion on hunting with hounds, not with terriers and therefore seems irrelevant to this article. MikeHobday 10:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove the reference to the Letter from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to the Burns Report on Hunting for a simple reason: You are entirely wrong on every count. Please read the ENTIRE letter at >> http://www.huntfacts.com/veterinary_opinion_on_hunting_.htm and note that is quite explicitly (and in detail) talks about terrier work.
Mike Hobday, you knowledge of working terriers seems as close to zero as your predecessor at the "League Against Cruel Sports" who, upon getting an education, went to the other side (as did two previous Executive Directors/Chairmen. As Former LACS Public Relations director Miles Cooper noted in an interview last year (see : http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/392/80561.html)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by PBurns3711 ( talk • contribs)
I've returned the welfare issue to the lead, and restored the section about legislation in the UK, because these aspects are clearly a major part of the narrative about working terriers. Any article that left them out would be very one-sided. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have left the basics of the welfare issue and a link to the controversy in the intro. As it was written before the intro had a plug for an argument made by one side of the fox hunting issue (which is not what this entry is about anyway). Fox hunting is only a small fraction of working terrier work, and working terrier work in the UK is a fraction of working terrier work. To argue that because a very vocal group in one small country is very much opposed to certain activities is not germane to the introduction of an article which is devoted to describing a class of dogs. As a example take a look at the article on lever action rifles. The group of people opposed to gun ownership is much larger than that opposed to fox hunting. Should this article contain a summary of anti-gun positions? Should it be in the introduction? I am sure that for some the gun control " thing is infact the main issue when it comes to this subject". There is no such information on the Foxhound page which is much more directly related to fox hunting. Why is it so fundamental here?-- Counsel 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The claim that terrier work in the course of fox hunting is "fox baiting" is simply wrong.-- Counsel 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You have correctly argued for an expansion of Foxhound, not a diminution of this article. Grace Note 05:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is already an entry on the Hunting Act of 2004, yet a summary of the entire law has been included here. I am not a British lawyer so I cannot comment whether it is correct, however, it is not necessary. I spend all day reading laws. I happen to like the law, but including a complete discription of the law of England is not appropriate. Are we to include the laws of Virginia, Washington, Pennsylvania, France, etc? Such an article would be unwieldy. I will leave it in for now, but I think it would be better handled with a link to the entry on the law.-- Counsel 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
First, this article does not talk about a "class of dog" in the sense that a "poodle" is a class of dog. It talks about a use of certain types of dogs. To chase "quarry". This sets a context for these dogs (the matter of fact tone suggests approval of this use of a dog, as does, very much so, that the first requirement for a working dog is that someone should work it!). Describing what the dogs do as "work" is strongly biased to a positive view of it. I do not strongly object to this, although it could be rephrased into a "voice" that took things less for granted.
Second, many readers will not automatically realise that one is talking about dogs that could be used in fox hunting, yet this is primarily what they are used for at least in the UK. The article largely discusses terrier work in the UK, framing its history in terms of enclosure, which is not an issue in the States or elsewhere, because enclosure practices differed in other places. So the intro should note this, and having done so, making note in some detail why it is controversial (not just that it is) serves to balance out a piece that is far too sympathetic to one POV.
Third, the article on the Hunting Act is not specific on this issue, and it's appropriate to give it in some detail (if it is appropriate to go into as much detail about terrier work in the UK, which the article does). You should either slash the article to its generic elements and put the slashings into an article on Working terriers in the United Kingdom or accept that given the form of the discussion, a focus on UK responses is appropriate. Grace Note 05:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the claim about the fox population having increased in the UK, because this source says otherwise. David McDonald's book was published in 1987, and so is out of date; also, there was no page number so it'd be hard to check exactly what he said. I also removed the claim about all species hunted by terriers having increased, because the first source didn't say it, and the second two links went to a personal website, terrierman.com. We're not allowed to use those as sources unless the owner of the site has some widely acknowledged expertise, preferably professional. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that the suggestion that an article on working terriers in the UK be created is not a bad one. This would allow for a general article on what a working terrier is and then one that could discuss issues in a country specific venue as there are loads of country specific issues. This might not solve the problem however, as I am sure that LACS and others concerned for the welfare of foxes are not only concerned about those foxes that drop their H's. Surely there would be concern for american foxes even if there is not a similarly active social/political movement. This would also make the lenghty exposition of laws in that particular jurisdiction more appropriate.
Read the article on animal baiting. I have not contributed to that one. Baiting is an activitiy were the animal is chained or confined by people and the set upon by dogs, usually for gambling purposes. This activity is distinguishable. Dog fighting is similarly not included here. While a law may address both, this article is not aimed at any particular law, it is about hunting not fighting or baiting. Ideally, a hunting terrier will have no contact with the quarry, but will bolt the animal or stop the animal in a sette and bay allowing the terrierman to dig to the animal.
I believe that your concern that the artice states that dogs "should be worked" is misplaced. I believe that this was written as means of distinguishing working terriers from pet or show dogs. The arguement is often made that a Border Terrier is not a "working terrier" by virtue of being of that breed. It only a working terrier should it be worked. I agree that it could be written more skillfully to avoid the appearance of advocacy.
The article on the Australian Cattle Dog makes the point that these dogs, being highly intelligent, require continual mental stimulation or they will develop problems. IMHO, the "should be worked" sentence is made here in the same context. Old_Wombat ( talk) 08:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I submit that this article is about a class of dogs in the sense that Draft horse is an article about a class of horse. That article states that a draft horse "is a large horse bred for hard, heavy tasks such as ploughing and farm labour". I have little doubt that in today's mechanized world many would be opposed to forcing a horse to perform hard labor. Why do we not see similar polemics in the intro to that article. The article certainly makes it sound as though breeding horses for this purpose is a good thing. The article on axes states the following "Stone axes are quite efficient tools; using one, it takes about 10 minutes to fell a hardwood ash tree of 10 cm diameter, one to two hours for an ash of 30 cm diameter." I know that many would consider felling a hardwood tree to be a bad thing. Given the fact that deforestation threatens the lives of millions of people, it is clearly a more important issue than a hunting ban. If things continue as they are, London may be underwater, yet we do not preface the entry on axes with such information. We cannot add sections on every activity which is opposed by some which states "some people don't like this". I do think that given the space in current political discourse allocated to welfare issues in hunting, some reference is appropriate, but the introduction is not the place.
Just as the intro to lever action rifles does not contain a gun control warning or the intro to axe does not contain a deforestation warning, the issues related to animal welfare should be in a section on animal welfare not the introduction-- Counsel 18:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
To my mind, the key remaining problem with the article is the separation of the statement "over 500 members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons agree that it is a humane way to reduce fox numbers" from the discussion of the welfare issue in the controversy section. Not sure how to address this, but these issues are linked. MikeHobday 22:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Terrier work is entirely legal in the UK and in Scotland. See the law,
"A person commits an offence if he hunts a wild mammal with a dog, unless his hunting is exempt." (s1) The exemptions are quite limited and can be viewed at our article on the act or in the schedules attached to the act. Grace Note 03:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Do we have any reliable sources for the following claims? SlimVirgin (talk) 09:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Terriers that rat or bush rabbits or work wild game in brush piles or barns are not working terriers, but "sporting terriers" — a term that encompasses a wide variety of work not done underground. A terrier is considered a working terrier only when it disappears underground and out of sight, and when it is dug to by someone with a shovel, or when the quarry is allowed to bolt free or to a net. A terrier is not a working terrier if it is working only artificial earths, such as those used at American earthdog trials.
How can anyone claim, as a previous version of this article did, that "[t]errier work ... does not include dog fighting or animal baiting," when it clearly does include that, according to the sources? This article has to reflect what reliable sources say about the issue and that includes animal protection groups. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Parts of this are written in a slightly unencyclopedic tone, but I actually like it — particularly: " ... [L]arger dogs ... are more likely to find themselves jammed in a den pipe, face to face with the quarry, and unable to move forward or backward. Nothing good can come from such a situation." Indeed not! :-D SlimVirgin (talk) 09:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The place to put controversy is not in the introduction, and in this case, the text added was factually wrong on several fronts. I have left in a brief section on the "controversy" in the UK, but the law as quoted was simply wrong and demonstrably so.
As to the differences between a sporting terrier and a working terrier, this is spelled out quite clearly by both Jocelyn Lucas and Brian Plummer and these are well-understood terms in the working terrier community the world over. I would also recommend these two authors to anyone who wants to know what terrier work is -- and it not. -- PBurns3711
Dude, you don't even bother to address the issues on this talkpage. I'm going to be reinserting that section and I urge you not to take it out again. The place to put the controversy is absolutely in the opening section, as I discuss at length above. The law as quoted is the law as it is spelled out in the Act. You might not like it but it is the law. This article is not written for "the working terrier community [sic] the world over", but for laypeople, some of whom are not sympathetic with the POV you are pushing here. If you feel there are factual faults, place them here. If you simply remove the text, you are liable to run into trouble. Grace Note 13:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have read the discussion section completely, and the opposition to SlimVirgin's edits GraceNotes's edit are pretty well spelled out by Counsel. As he/she notes, there is already a section on Wiki on The Hunting Act, fox hunting, etc. and most terrier work is not done in the U.K. The fact that neither writer seems to know what "baiting" is suggests a basic lack of knowledge about the topic addressed here, and the "Dude" reference suggests a very young age. What seems to be going on here is a "revert war" sparked by a very young and not very well-informed person who knows nothing about terriers or terrier work.
SlimVirgin and GraceNotes should be aware of the three-revert rule on Wiki to avoid being blocked. [4] 66.208.50.14PBurns3711
Here is the rub: The longer introduction contains a general overview of the animal welfare argument. This is not an article about the controversy. The introduction should be a general overview of Working Terriers. The longer introduction that you favor does not state that there is a controversy, it provides portions of the arguments for and against. This is incomplete AND overinclusive for an introduction. The introduction as written before, which was put together by persons on both sides of the issue and discussed on this page states clearly that there is a controversy, provides a link, and makes clear what the "Controversy in the UK" Section will be about. I am going replace the longer "arguement outline" introduction with the shorter "Controversy link" introduction that was discussed here because it is the introduction that was put together through discussion. I do, however, appreciate your discussing it here and I have added a clause stating that the controversy is over animal welfare as this was not clear before. I think that your argument that this is a page as much about a technique as it is about a class of dog is persuasive. I propose a few compromise ideas.
SlimVirgin you seem to know very little about terrier work, which is fine, but the proper way to learn is not to delete text while spray-painting a section with anti-hunting, animal rights rhetoric heavily centered on the UK debates about fox hunting or the Hunting Act, all of which are deeply coverered on other Wiki entries. As noted earlier, most terrier work does not occur in the UK, and terrier work is legal in most countries where it is practiced, including in the UK. - PBurns3711
Information such as "The British National Working Terrier Federation denies that underground fighting is an issue, arguing that the terrier's role is to locate, bark, and flush out the hunted animals, not attack them" is not general overview of terrier work. It is completely in-the-weeds detail and is not appropriate in the introduction. It should be in the controversy section. Perhaps if this were a UK specific article. What the British National Working Terrier Federation has to say makes no difference in 90% of the world. I am not going to pull it immediatly to avoid a further revert war, but I am interested to hear what other editors have to say. I am alone here?-- Counsel 22:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for asking again. We have been moving rapidly from one argument to the next and not everything gets answered. I read the section on the lead. I think that stating that a controversy exists with respect to this activity based upon concern over animal welfare, is capable of standing on its own. It makes clear that there is disagreement and what those opposed to the activity dislike. The article should be an overview of working terriers not an overview of the controversy in one country. When the intro goes further and selects specific arguments from the public discourse in one country, it does not stand on its own as it only includes portions of the arguments for and against. Once you take the step toward outlining specific arguments significantly more must be included to make the presentation complete. This complete presentation should take place in a section devoted to the controversy. If this were an article about the controversy, then a summary of the various positions might be necessary, but not here.-- Counsel 06:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I would agree. One of the problems here is that those opposed to hunting have been ensuring that this article aims at those activities which they find most objectionable. Hence the removal of the information stating that this article does not deal with baiting and dog fighting. Those who are most intent upon seeing the arguments against hunting with terriers spelled out in the introduction seem to be doing so in the context of it being a part of Fox hunting. Am I wrong that this is the form of hunting that has produced the greatest animosity in the UK. The vast majority of terrier work in the US involves ground hogs, raccoons, and opossums. The introduction here seems to make ti sound as though terrierwork involves primarily the hunting of Fox and Badger.-- Counsel 21:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that that intro will work. I added "or capture".-- Counsel 22:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The idea that those engaged in terrier hunting are morons is part of the problem. This is simply not a dispute between those who are interested in animal welfare and those who could'nt care less. You might be suprised how much effort hunters who have contributed to this page have spent in public campaigning for more ethical treatment of hunted animals. The idea that this is an activity involving only troglodites who do it only for the purpose of watching an animal fight is such a gross oversimplification that it hardly bears responding to, but this seems to be fueling some of the disagreement over how this entry should be layed out.
It seems that many who hold the view above assume that if left unmolested by the hunter, the quarry involved would merrily live out his days and pass quietly in some "natural" way. The truth is that animals in the wild die particularly unpleasant deaths as a rule. They will either die slowly of starvation and sickness, be killed by a predator when they become weak, or run over by a motorist out for a drive. In none of these cases is the animal likely to be dealt the relatively quick death that the hunter or hounds deal out unless it is luckily struck perfectly by the car. Alternative to hunting animals for population control are the use of traps and poison. Neither of these discriminates between young and old or those with young. A hunter, once the quarry is discovered, often has the option of killing or relocating a problem animal or leaving a mother with young. It is very much an issue of focus on the individual or focus on the population.
I do not think that those opposed to hunting are morons, I just think that some of the assumptions upon which there arguements are based may be flawed. The situation for a bayed animal in a stop end sette is likely stessful, but the selective process of hunting places less stress on the population. In the Eastern United States, the number of deer struck by vehicles often varies year to year almost perfectly in step with the number of hunting tags filled. I think that hunters, who tend to select older males who have seen the majority of their reprocutive life, are a better check on this population that the randomness of car bumpers with the resulting injury to people and property. What I am saying is that those maintaining pro-hunting positions are not doing out of a lack of concern for animal welfare, but rather a different interpretation of it. Those who assume that there is no consideration given to the quarry are missing part of the argument.
We are not going to settle this here, but I felt compelled to respond at least in part.-- Counsel 04:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
As of 16 February 2008, the lead sentences read:
"Goes to ground," "formidable quarry," "earthdog trials?" I have no idea what any of these terms refer to. What does it mean to "rat" or to "bush" or to "work wild game?" We need a lot more context and wikilinks; remember that our articles should be geared toward the general audience. WP:SOFIXIT? I'd rewrite it myself, but I know nothing about dogs and don't know where to start.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 15:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
OK I added definitions, better? Hafwyn ( talk) 00:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Clarify that the chest width (span or circumference) not the height is what defines the working terrier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hafwyn ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)