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There seems to be general agreement as to the wording, the three sentences I added, but not to whether there should be a separate section. I originally made it a separate section but it was reverted, and I was OK with that. Now it's been restored. Discuss? Coretheapple ( talk) 19:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Speaking as a casual reader of this page, not someone with a strong opinion on whether the Dylan Farrow allegations are true or not, I find it extraordinarily strange (creepy, even) that allegations of sexual abuse would fall under a heading called, "Marriages, children and romantic relationships." I came to the talk page to understand why it was there. I've read the preceding debate about neutrality and balance, but I think you've gone too far in seeking that and have left the reader with the impression that the allegations are not credible. The sentences themselves aren't the problem, it's the fact that you've worked so hard to bury them in this sub-sub-sub section. Reading the debate here actually leads me to believe that the editors do not, in fact, believe the allegations to be credible: "Allegations relating to bitter family conflicts and breakups," "reporting of allegations and gossip," "even if one party to the dispute gets their letter published," etc. These aren't allegations about a family dispute, they are specific and detailed first-person allegations about sexual assault made by an adult. The letter was referenced in the New York Times, not a tabloid (the full letter was in the blog, but both the blog and Kristof's column itself have to meet some pretty high journalistic standards). No one will ever know whether the allegations are true or not, but they are certainly not going away. They are a real, important fact of Allen's life -- very important for some readers -- that needs to be treated seriously.
I think a good case was made above for pulling this out from under the Mia Farrow section and would support that change. Another suggestion would be simply to remove the sub-heading, "Marriages, children and romantic relationships," from the "personal life" section and make each sub-sub-heading it's own more descriptive sub-heading and provide a new one there for Dylan Farrow (does that make sense?). So it would go: (heading) Personal Life --> (sub-headings) Marriage to Harlene Rosen, Marriage to Louise Lasser, etc. Relationship with Mia Farrow, Controversy with Dylan Farrow (or something else similarly descriptive), etc. Clarinetist, Psychoanalysis.
Thanks for considering my input. 66.208.21.162 ( talk) 22:12, 3 February 2014 (UTC) Elizabeth
I don't believe there needs to be a debate. Or undue weight. But because so many people are coming to this page to form an opinion, facts need to be extra tight and should reflect the court records and nothing outside of the court records. Farrow did not "win" custody, because she didn't sue for Allen for custody. He sued her for full custody and lost. The Daily Beast article is not an appropriate source of information. It's full of debatable opinions and errors of fact. There should be nothing in here that can be used to support the growing opinion that Wikipedia is biased because it is written by men. It should be just who sued who, who said what and when. User:JulietWaters 3 February 2014 (JulietWaters) —Preceding undated comment added 23:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I understand and agree with the policy about weight. My perspective is that the controversy is a significant element of the story of his life that merits inclusion here and that omitting it (or "burying" it) is actually more unbalanced than dealing with it completely. Whether the accusations are true or not is irrelevant, what's important is that this is a piece of his story that has remained a topic of controversy for 20 years. Court documents are not the only credible sources. I think the statements made by the judge in the custody case are credible (already included), as are those of the state investigator who said there was "probably cause" to bring charges (the fact that he was later censured is also significant). I'm not sure whether Dylan's "letter" is a credible source or not per WP's policies, but given that she wrote it as an adult, it seems notable. It's not WP's place to draw a conclusion about what's true or not, but to present credible elements of a controversy. I think most of the balanced and complete text is already there, along with reiteration that no charges have ever been filed, but my issue, again, is the fact that it's all weirdly in a Mia Farrow section about a custody battle under a heading generally about his romantic relationships. It doesn't make sense that it's in that section and given that there are multiple third-party statements drawing different conclusions and now a further statement from Dylan herself. It's a topic associated with Allen for the past 20 years and I think it's out of proportion not to deal with it in a more complete way. 66.208.21.162 ( talk) 00:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)Elizabeth
Regarding this sentence: "Though Allen never married Mia Farrow and was not Previn's legal stepfather, the relationship between Allen and Previn has often been referred to as a stepfather involved romantically with his stepdaughter because she was adopted and legally Farrow's daughter and Allen's son's sister."
I think this needs editing for several reasons.
(a) "has often been referred to as a stepfather involved romantically with his stepdaughter" -- I'm not quite clear what this means to say. The word "referred" does not seem appropriate -- the implication is that they are incorrect (as, legally, it IS incorrect). Perhaps it would be better to say something along the lines of, "Despite the fact that Allen was never legally Previn's stepfather, many believe their relationship to be inappropriate." Or something clearer like that.
(b) "because she was adopted" -- The passive voice here is misleading and makes it seem like Allen adopted her, which is false.
Sorry if somebody else already pointed this one out -- I don't have hours of free time to read the comments.
Bobjohnson111980 (
talk)
16:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
About Wikipedia's audience, we can check the traffic statistics,
The graphics show to us (you can follow the links and explore it changing months) something more: when, in the timeline, a peak of interest by Woody's article is correlated to a peak of interest by Mia's article.
Many Wikipedia readers that read Woody Alen's page, read Mia Farrow's page, and vice-versa: this is a valid hypothesis, attested by the Wikipedia statistics (illustred). And both are significative: both have an average of more than 2,000 pageviews/day, and all illustred peaks have more than 50,000 pageviews at the first day.
The two highest peaks have more than 200,000 pageviews, while the Wikipedia's homepage (one of the most visited pages of the world!), received, in the same period, ~12,000,000 pageviews each day. So, the peaks are near to ~2% of the enteire Wikipedia's audience. It is not a playground, it is a serious content, a serious audience and sensitive exposition for Wikipedia.
Analisyng the 3 peaks:
Conclusions about correlation:
These two articles, Woody and Mia, can't be treated as "totally isolated contents". The traffic statistics is a good tool to show us when they are correlated: some consistence between articles must be checkd and preserved, and the envolved articles needs to be consolidated in time.
Conclusions about the present debate:
The public of this "real time debate" need to see another opinion, another sources and a "big picture of the facts"... They are looking for it, and they find here at Wikipedia! We need to supply, if possible in "near real time", the sources and the confirmed facts!
Of course, we can't endorse opinions or favor unconfirmed facts, but we can't omit objective facts, even if it is only a line of article's text. Wikipedia reputation relies on its non-biased objectivity, reliability and "big picture of the facts", that public are looking for. See (graphics) the slow decay after peaks: the "memory of the public" viewing pages after events and after all Internet movement... They are looking for response here, we can not hide or omit facts, even in the first days (peak-decay interval): the price (of delay or omission) is too high for Wikipedia in rancked serious articles.
-- Krauss ( talk) 11:53, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
What a wikipedist can do fast, just-in-time?. How muth fast a fact must be posted here? What the problem with " near-real-time mass media coverage"?
In a narrow window of time, when we have time-constraints, not all work can be made, and (far as I know) no Wikipedia principle show the right way. I think the solution is to use the oficial statistcs tool to check what principles are valid for each situation. Examples:
With these simple recommendations (use traffic statistics for check relevance, for check time-window, and use the "recipe" for progressive wait-consensus-and-edit) we not need any new Wikipedia principle to edit just-in-time of the occuring news and traffic-event.
The allegations are 20 years old. The case is well documented and was already incorporated in the article under the Mia Farrow section. Nothing has changed. There's no new investigation. What else needs to be mentioned? Saying that recently she renewed her allegations and Allen denied them again? That's all that should be added, this is ridiculous. Dkspartan1 ( talk) 16:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
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Woody Allen just published a response to the Dylan Farrow allegations in the Sunday New York Times. [8] I think it's imperative that his response be reflected, briefly, in the "Dylan Farrow" subsection. I'd suggest adding the following words, "....and responded in detail in a letter published in The New York Times that he described as his final comment on the subject." Coretheapple ( talk) 14:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Please rewrite this:
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Would like to remove "also" from "Farrow also went to court to have Allen's two adoptions with her nullified." It is a matter of court record that Allen initiated court proceeding by suing for full custody.
As well, this needs a more credible source than the dailybeast article, which is fuzzy with the facts. For instance. The judge never ruled that the sexual molestation investigation was "inconclusive". He wrote "I am less certain, however, than is the Yale-New Haven team, that the evidence proves conclusively that there was no sexual abuse,..." i.e. he wrote that a report that concluded that there was NO sexual abuse was inconclusive. Very different. [1]
JulietWaters (
talk)
22:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that we should include what the judge said. But he very, very clearly gave negative opinion on the credibility of that report [1]
http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/02/23/reviews/farrow-verdict.html
JulietWaters JulietWaters ( talk) 00:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Not done - no response from proposer after 12 days -
Arjayay (
talk)
17:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Two separate questions require consideration:
1. How much detail should be given to Dylan Farrow's sexual assault allegations?
2. Do they warrant a separate section?
At the current time, the allegations are covered in the following paragraph at the bottom of the "Mia Farrow" subsection. The first three sentences are preexisting, the final two recently added:
After Allen and Farrow separated, a long public legal battle for the custody of their three children began. During the proceedings, Farrow alleged that Allen had sexually molested their adopted daughter Dylan, who was then seven years old. The police-appointed medical team concluded that Dylan "was not molested", citing contradictory statements by Dylan.[122] The judge eventually found that the sex abuse charges were inconclusive.[123] In February 2014, Dylan Farrow repeated the allegations in an open letter published by Nicholas Kristof, a friend of Mia Farrow, in The New York Times.[124][125][126] Allen strongly denied the charges, calling them "untrue and disgraceful."[127][128]
This is the subject of a discussion in a previous section, but given the high visibility of this article, and the sensitive nature of the publicized allegations, I think that wider community input would be desirable. Coretheapple ( talk) 00:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
After Allen and Farrow separated, a long public legal battle for the custody of their three children began. During the proceedings, Farrow alleged that Allen had sexually molested their adopted daughter Dylan, who was then seven years old. The police-appointed medical team concluded that Dylan "was not molested", citing contradictory statements by Dylan.[122] The judge eventually found that the sex abuse charges were inconclusive.[123] In February 2014, Dylan Farrow repeated the allegations in an open letter published by Nicholas Kristof, a friend of Mia Farrow, in The New York Times.[124][125][126] Allen strongly denied the charges, calling them "untrue and disgraceful."[127][128]
First, the inappropriate contact with Dylan was noted in 1991 well before the separation. Woody Allen was in therapy for it with Dr. Coates before the Farrow/Allen split. Second, the more pointed what-happened-in-the-attic sexual abuse allegation (during the custody fight) was reportedly made by Dylan (NOT Mia) to her pediatrician who then reported it to the police as is mandated by law. Third, the police appointed medical team had some difficulties in their handling of the case as was noted by the custody judge [14].
Finally, I'd like to note that it would likely be better to have a section about Controversies and Scandals that cover Allen's parenting because that was what the legal proceedings were about. The 33-page report of the judge [15] can be linked and is probably one of the most objective documents we can get. He concluded that while he wasn't sure what happened in the attic, he decried Allen's parenting and self-absorption, denied him custody and unsupervised visits and called his relationship with Dylan "grossly inappropriate."
He also underscored the problematic nature of Allen's relationship with Soon Yi vis a vis his other children (his adopted kids) and cited Allen's lack of appreciation of how damaging his relationship to Soon Yi was to the other members of the family as further evidence of his lack of judgment, poor parenting and narcissism. The judge awarded Mia over a million (all the attorney's fees.). Allen's parenting and questions concerning his sexualization of child figures within that could be a section in itself and the references to the judge's report the centerpiece.
Dylan's op-ed, Allen's response, and the stand of Moses, Ronan and Mia could be mentioned. This could be done in a paragraph or two. The fact is that this was a self-inflicted custody battle. Allen knew very little about the kids he was seeking to adopt but kept appealing decisions, filing complaints and running up legal bills. There is a very clear (if lengthy) final opinion on the whole thing that is quotable and not subject to interpretation. The sequelae of Allen's self-inflicted battle, and the abuse allegations litigated within have dogged him for twenty years (whether or not they should) and continue to cast a shadow over his artistic creations. It deserves due attention. Scholarlyarticles ( talk) 04:20, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
for the statement that Woody Allen ended his psychoanalytic sessions about the same time as he began a relationship with his present wife.
This is presented as his own statement without source.
See this example in The NY Times headline.
Should the photo of Allen that exists currently be kept? I notice there is a newer photograph of Allen here. 75.156.69.71 ( talk) 04:20, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm confussed about his official family name. While it's sure that the original form must be Königsberg, I wonder what form he has in his papers... does he have an umlaut in his american passport? German wikipedia lists Konigsberg without umlaut.
popolfi -- 217.224.15.195 11:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Chowbok is correct. Of course Woody Allen is of German descent and thus he has a German name. Of course, as he is a Yiddish Jew we are not allowed to say he is of German descent so we can keep wikipedia's myth of Jewish racial purity. _ Anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.86.174 ( talk) 11:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Did he renounce his atheism or something? The cats for him are gone. Rusted AutoParts ( talk) 2:29 7 October 2011 (UTC)
This subject has come up twice before on this talk page, but nobody has suggested multiple birth names. In looking up Woody Allen's birth name, I found a lot of sources saying Allen, a lot of sources saying Allan, and a few saying Alan. I was looking only at sources published before Wikipedia started in 2003, so as to avoid circular referencing.
I think we should tell the reader that various birth names are reported. I do not think we should choose one of them as being the one true answer. Binksternet ( talk) 17:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
There is no text on this in the article except for "Allen has described himself as being a "militant Freudian atheist".[139]".
In an interview to an Israeli newspaper he goes into more detail:
(translated by Google):
"Hero in the magic light of the moon is completely realistic and speaks in my name," he declares, "He felt that what you see is what there is, there is no 'meaning' life, no special purpose to the universe, there is no life after death, and the rest is nonsense - Religion , clairvoyants. everything is cheating. nothing to do with the sad reality of life. character played by Colin that people are being misled by religious leaders, mind readers and fortune tellers using a crystal ball. understands that while there are some moments that are alive - with her mother, for example - or a magical touch here and there, yet it as part of the somber shadow of the grim reality under which we all live. " Still, there is one dramatic moment in the film where he really anxious and pray to God, then comes to his senses and decides that everything is nonsense. It seems that you yourself discover so cynical towards this character. "This is totally cynical.'s The reality. You can get to a hospital, like him, and pray, but there is no meaning. Hoping and praying it meaningless. Whether you have good doctors and a little luck you'll be fine. Whether the situation is against you you can pray day and night , but it will not help. "
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4551878,00.html 79.180.48.165 ( talk) 21:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I find it odd that there is not much discussion regarding Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi Previn. In Allen's Wikipedia page, there are quotes of him telling jokes about marrying Soon-Yi who, outside of celebritydom, is his daughter. In Mia Farrow's Wikipedia page, there is no mention of Woody Allen marrying her (their) daughter. Could anyone enlighten me?
-- Doug Roy, P.Eng. ( talk) 22:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
No one cares about his filmography as an actor (currently shown). Either show his directorial filmography or defer the whole thing to the dedicated page. 104.59.83.70 ( talk) 01:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Here's a July 29th interview with Woody Allen, conducted by Sam Fragoso, on NPR. One of things it gets into is Allen's psychoanalysis - how much, when on and off. (The article makes it sound like he's been in analysis most of his life without a break.) His perception of his career is also discussed as is his relationship with his wife and teenage daughters. http://www.npr.org/2015/07/29/426827865/at-79-woody-allen-says-theres-still-time-to-do-his-best-work Thank you, Wordreader ( talk) 07:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Allen has said in an interview that Match Point "may be the best film that I've made." [2] I think this is quite a significant and noteworthy statement by Allen and is worth mentioning in the lead section after his best-known films. What do you think? – IAmTylerSanders ( talk) 21:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
This section is all out of order. It starts by referencing "the sexual abuse case," which has not even been introduced yet. What charges? They need to be described and explained before being referenced. Further, what's stated in the first paragraph seems at odds with the conclusions stated in the rest of the section. I hope someone is interested in cleaning this up? Chafe66 ( talk) 04:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
The whole section only gives Allen's side on the story and must be rewritten. I have tried, but my edits have been reversed. Maybe a bug, maybe a Woody Allen fan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.240.125.70 ( talk) 18:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
What about the New York Times? http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/02/23/reviews/farrow-verdict.html The veredict of the Judge is not an invention from tabloids — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheAlitxu ( talk • contribs) 23:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/02/woody-allen-sex-abuse-10-facts much more meat. the current state of this section is a disgrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.48.150.172 ( talk) 16:01, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Some editors are misusing the article to slant an incident (via the closed allegation) that took place about 24 years ago. They are relying on primary sources, namely original court documents and the judge's decision, to create an imbalanced synthesis, instead of the more neutral secondary sources, as preferred. The section has thereby become overloaded with new minutiae, including two obviously non-neutral letters. This effectively turns the section into a new platform to reopen the now closed case and restate opinions. The new open letter by Ronan, an opinion piece, even compares the incident to Bill Cosby's. It is evidence only that any publication, whether the Hollywood Reporter or New York Times, will be happy to attract readership by using tabloid sensationalism.
To further slant the neutrality of the subject, the latest edits removed a number of reliable sources and citations, along with quotes, without explanation. -- Light show ( talk) 04:34, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
I am sorry, but how come present state of article recounting affair is considered valid? There were obviously numerous changes in the article since, always reverted back. As you pointed out, Wikipedia is not a tabloid. But interestingly, the section now is relying predominantly on one source - even thought cited in more publications. It does not mean it is valid. It means, what you wrote before, it is feeding press.
This section is one sided and facts are not correct. Why do you think it is better do cite Moses Farrow than court documents? Why is in article repeatedly falsely pointing out friendship between Mia Farrow and journalist, who was investigating the affair? This man is a Pulitzer-winning author with no personal interest whatsoever. So how come it is labeled "unreliable" opposing to the Moses Farrow bits?
I am deeply concerned about the state of the article. And I am obviously not the only one. Please consider other sources, and more importantly, consider the validity of sources more thoroughtly. AboutGirl ( talk) 10:06, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
I leave it to Allen mavens to determine whether a mention of Allen's long-time private secretary belongs on the page. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 15:15, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
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Recent edits changed spelling of birth surname from Konigsberg to Königsberg (with Ö), even in the source quotation. Is that correct? The changes seem to me a bit suspicious and there's no explanation given in the edit summary.- ז62 ( talk) 13:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
In the section on the sexual abuse allegations, it states that the court appointed doctor, John Leventhal, never interviewed Dylan. In fact, he interviewed her nine times according to a New York Times article cited on the page... http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/nyregion/doctor-cites-inconsistencies-in-dylan-farrow-s-statements.html. This error may be a deliberate act of bad faith in an attempt to discredit the information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:7109:cd00:c49d:ba42:52c8:f167 ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 September 2017
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I suggest adding the following to the end of the first paragraph on Soon-Yi:
Her adoptive parents have estimated her birth date as October 8, 1970. [1]
This reference was obtained from the article on Andre Previn. 2601:141:300:9103:21E:C2FF:FE9F:4C2 ( talk) 13:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
References
How can you make an accurate differentiation when both his parents have publicly expressed their doubts [1] [2] about Ronan's biological relation to Allen? You have to ask yourself, under such circumstances, is this differentiation really worth mentioning? Gene2010 ( talk) 00:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)
Is he my son or, as Mia suggests, Frank Sinatra's? Granted, he looks a lot like Frank with the blue eyes and facial features, but if so what does this say? That all during the custody hearing Mia lied under oath and falsely represented Ronan as our son?
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
There seems to be general agreement as to the wording, the three sentences I added, but not to whether there should be a separate section. I originally made it a separate section but it was reverted, and I was OK with that. Now it's been restored. Discuss? Coretheapple ( talk) 19:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Speaking as a casual reader of this page, not someone with a strong opinion on whether the Dylan Farrow allegations are true or not, I find it extraordinarily strange (creepy, even) that allegations of sexual abuse would fall under a heading called, "Marriages, children and romantic relationships." I came to the talk page to understand why it was there. I've read the preceding debate about neutrality and balance, but I think you've gone too far in seeking that and have left the reader with the impression that the allegations are not credible. The sentences themselves aren't the problem, it's the fact that you've worked so hard to bury them in this sub-sub-sub section. Reading the debate here actually leads me to believe that the editors do not, in fact, believe the allegations to be credible: "Allegations relating to bitter family conflicts and breakups," "reporting of allegations and gossip," "even if one party to the dispute gets their letter published," etc. These aren't allegations about a family dispute, they are specific and detailed first-person allegations about sexual assault made by an adult. The letter was referenced in the New York Times, not a tabloid (the full letter was in the blog, but both the blog and Kristof's column itself have to meet some pretty high journalistic standards). No one will ever know whether the allegations are true or not, but they are certainly not going away. They are a real, important fact of Allen's life -- very important for some readers -- that needs to be treated seriously.
I think a good case was made above for pulling this out from under the Mia Farrow section and would support that change. Another suggestion would be simply to remove the sub-heading, "Marriages, children and romantic relationships," from the "personal life" section and make each sub-sub-heading it's own more descriptive sub-heading and provide a new one there for Dylan Farrow (does that make sense?). So it would go: (heading) Personal Life --> (sub-headings) Marriage to Harlene Rosen, Marriage to Louise Lasser, etc. Relationship with Mia Farrow, Controversy with Dylan Farrow (or something else similarly descriptive), etc. Clarinetist, Psychoanalysis.
Thanks for considering my input. 66.208.21.162 ( talk) 22:12, 3 February 2014 (UTC) Elizabeth
I don't believe there needs to be a debate. Or undue weight. But because so many people are coming to this page to form an opinion, facts need to be extra tight and should reflect the court records and nothing outside of the court records. Farrow did not "win" custody, because she didn't sue for Allen for custody. He sued her for full custody and lost. The Daily Beast article is not an appropriate source of information. It's full of debatable opinions and errors of fact. There should be nothing in here that can be used to support the growing opinion that Wikipedia is biased because it is written by men. It should be just who sued who, who said what and when. User:JulietWaters 3 February 2014 (JulietWaters) —Preceding undated comment added 23:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I understand and agree with the policy about weight. My perspective is that the controversy is a significant element of the story of his life that merits inclusion here and that omitting it (or "burying" it) is actually more unbalanced than dealing with it completely. Whether the accusations are true or not is irrelevant, what's important is that this is a piece of his story that has remained a topic of controversy for 20 years. Court documents are not the only credible sources. I think the statements made by the judge in the custody case are credible (already included), as are those of the state investigator who said there was "probably cause" to bring charges (the fact that he was later censured is also significant). I'm not sure whether Dylan's "letter" is a credible source or not per WP's policies, but given that she wrote it as an adult, it seems notable. It's not WP's place to draw a conclusion about what's true or not, but to present credible elements of a controversy. I think most of the balanced and complete text is already there, along with reiteration that no charges have ever been filed, but my issue, again, is the fact that it's all weirdly in a Mia Farrow section about a custody battle under a heading generally about his romantic relationships. It doesn't make sense that it's in that section and given that there are multiple third-party statements drawing different conclusions and now a further statement from Dylan herself. It's a topic associated with Allen for the past 20 years and I think it's out of proportion not to deal with it in a more complete way. 66.208.21.162 ( talk) 00:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)Elizabeth
Regarding this sentence: "Though Allen never married Mia Farrow and was not Previn's legal stepfather, the relationship between Allen and Previn has often been referred to as a stepfather involved romantically with his stepdaughter because she was adopted and legally Farrow's daughter and Allen's son's sister."
I think this needs editing for several reasons.
(a) "has often been referred to as a stepfather involved romantically with his stepdaughter" -- I'm not quite clear what this means to say. The word "referred" does not seem appropriate -- the implication is that they are incorrect (as, legally, it IS incorrect). Perhaps it would be better to say something along the lines of, "Despite the fact that Allen was never legally Previn's stepfather, many believe their relationship to be inappropriate." Or something clearer like that.
(b) "because she was adopted" -- The passive voice here is misleading and makes it seem like Allen adopted her, which is false.
Sorry if somebody else already pointed this one out -- I don't have hours of free time to read the comments.
Bobjohnson111980 (
talk)
16:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
About Wikipedia's audience, we can check the traffic statistics,
The graphics show to us (you can follow the links and explore it changing months) something more: when, in the timeline, a peak of interest by Woody's article is correlated to a peak of interest by Mia's article.
Many Wikipedia readers that read Woody Alen's page, read Mia Farrow's page, and vice-versa: this is a valid hypothesis, attested by the Wikipedia statistics (illustred). And both are significative: both have an average of more than 2,000 pageviews/day, and all illustred peaks have more than 50,000 pageviews at the first day.
The two highest peaks have more than 200,000 pageviews, while the Wikipedia's homepage (one of the most visited pages of the world!), received, in the same period, ~12,000,000 pageviews each day. So, the peaks are near to ~2% of the enteire Wikipedia's audience. It is not a playground, it is a serious content, a serious audience and sensitive exposition for Wikipedia.
Analisyng the 3 peaks:
Conclusions about correlation:
These two articles, Woody and Mia, can't be treated as "totally isolated contents". The traffic statistics is a good tool to show us when they are correlated: some consistence between articles must be checkd and preserved, and the envolved articles needs to be consolidated in time.
Conclusions about the present debate:
The public of this "real time debate" need to see another opinion, another sources and a "big picture of the facts"... They are looking for it, and they find here at Wikipedia! We need to supply, if possible in "near real time", the sources and the confirmed facts!
Of course, we can't endorse opinions or favor unconfirmed facts, but we can't omit objective facts, even if it is only a line of article's text. Wikipedia reputation relies on its non-biased objectivity, reliability and "big picture of the facts", that public are looking for. See (graphics) the slow decay after peaks: the "memory of the public" viewing pages after events and after all Internet movement... They are looking for response here, we can not hide or omit facts, even in the first days (peak-decay interval): the price (of delay or omission) is too high for Wikipedia in rancked serious articles.
-- Krauss ( talk) 11:53, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
What a wikipedist can do fast, just-in-time?. How muth fast a fact must be posted here? What the problem with " near-real-time mass media coverage"?
In a narrow window of time, when we have time-constraints, not all work can be made, and (far as I know) no Wikipedia principle show the right way. I think the solution is to use the oficial statistcs tool to check what principles are valid for each situation. Examples:
With these simple recommendations (use traffic statistics for check relevance, for check time-window, and use the "recipe" for progressive wait-consensus-and-edit) we not need any new Wikipedia principle to edit just-in-time of the occuring news and traffic-event.
The allegations are 20 years old. The case is well documented and was already incorporated in the article under the Mia Farrow section. Nothing has changed. There's no new investigation. What else needs to be mentioned? Saying that recently she renewed her allegations and Allen denied them again? That's all that should be added, this is ridiculous. Dkspartan1 ( talk) 16:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
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Woody Allen just published a response to the Dylan Farrow allegations in the Sunday New York Times. [8] I think it's imperative that his response be reflected, briefly, in the "Dylan Farrow" subsection. I'd suggest adding the following words, "....and responded in detail in a letter published in The New York Times that he described as his final comment on the subject." Coretheapple ( talk) 14:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Please rewrite this:
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Would like to remove "also" from "Farrow also went to court to have Allen's two adoptions with her nullified." It is a matter of court record that Allen initiated court proceeding by suing for full custody.
As well, this needs a more credible source than the dailybeast article, which is fuzzy with the facts. For instance. The judge never ruled that the sexual molestation investigation was "inconclusive". He wrote "I am less certain, however, than is the Yale-New Haven team, that the evidence proves conclusively that there was no sexual abuse,..." i.e. he wrote that a report that concluded that there was NO sexual abuse was inconclusive. Very different. [1]
JulietWaters (
talk)
22:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that we should include what the judge said. But he very, very clearly gave negative opinion on the credibility of that report [1]
http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/02/23/reviews/farrow-verdict.html
JulietWaters JulietWaters ( talk) 00:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Not done - no response from proposer after 12 days -
Arjayay (
talk)
17:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Two separate questions require consideration:
1. How much detail should be given to Dylan Farrow's sexual assault allegations?
2. Do they warrant a separate section?
At the current time, the allegations are covered in the following paragraph at the bottom of the "Mia Farrow" subsection. The first three sentences are preexisting, the final two recently added:
After Allen and Farrow separated, a long public legal battle for the custody of their three children began. During the proceedings, Farrow alleged that Allen had sexually molested their adopted daughter Dylan, who was then seven years old. The police-appointed medical team concluded that Dylan "was not molested", citing contradictory statements by Dylan.[122] The judge eventually found that the sex abuse charges were inconclusive.[123] In February 2014, Dylan Farrow repeated the allegations in an open letter published by Nicholas Kristof, a friend of Mia Farrow, in The New York Times.[124][125][126] Allen strongly denied the charges, calling them "untrue and disgraceful."[127][128]
This is the subject of a discussion in a previous section, but given the high visibility of this article, and the sensitive nature of the publicized allegations, I think that wider community input would be desirable. Coretheapple ( talk) 00:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
After Allen and Farrow separated, a long public legal battle for the custody of their three children began. During the proceedings, Farrow alleged that Allen had sexually molested their adopted daughter Dylan, who was then seven years old. The police-appointed medical team concluded that Dylan "was not molested", citing contradictory statements by Dylan.[122] The judge eventually found that the sex abuse charges were inconclusive.[123] In February 2014, Dylan Farrow repeated the allegations in an open letter published by Nicholas Kristof, a friend of Mia Farrow, in The New York Times.[124][125][126] Allen strongly denied the charges, calling them "untrue and disgraceful."[127][128]
First, the inappropriate contact with Dylan was noted in 1991 well before the separation. Woody Allen was in therapy for it with Dr. Coates before the Farrow/Allen split. Second, the more pointed what-happened-in-the-attic sexual abuse allegation (during the custody fight) was reportedly made by Dylan (NOT Mia) to her pediatrician who then reported it to the police as is mandated by law. Third, the police appointed medical team had some difficulties in their handling of the case as was noted by the custody judge [14].
Finally, I'd like to note that it would likely be better to have a section about Controversies and Scandals that cover Allen's parenting because that was what the legal proceedings were about. The 33-page report of the judge [15] can be linked and is probably one of the most objective documents we can get. He concluded that while he wasn't sure what happened in the attic, he decried Allen's parenting and self-absorption, denied him custody and unsupervised visits and called his relationship with Dylan "grossly inappropriate."
He also underscored the problematic nature of Allen's relationship with Soon Yi vis a vis his other children (his adopted kids) and cited Allen's lack of appreciation of how damaging his relationship to Soon Yi was to the other members of the family as further evidence of his lack of judgment, poor parenting and narcissism. The judge awarded Mia over a million (all the attorney's fees.). Allen's parenting and questions concerning his sexualization of child figures within that could be a section in itself and the references to the judge's report the centerpiece.
Dylan's op-ed, Allen's response, and the stand of Moses, Ronan and Mia could be mentioned. This could be done in a paragraph or two. The fact is that this was a self-inflicted custody battle. Allen knew very little about the kids he was seeking to adopt but kept appealing decisions, filing complaints and running up legal bills. There is a very clear (if lengthy) final opinion on the whole thing that is quotable and not subject to interpretation. The sequelae of Allen's self-inflicted battle, and the abuse allegations litigated within have dogged him for twenty years (whether or not they should) and continue to cast a shadow over his artistic creations. It deserves due attention. Scholarlyarticles ( talk) 04:20, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
for the statement that Woody Allen ended his psychoanalytic sessions about the same time as he began a relationship with his present wife.
This is presented as his own statement without source.
See this example in The NY Times headline.
Should the photo of Allen that exists currently be kept? I notice there is a newer photograph of Allen here. 75.156.69.71 ( talk) 04:20, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm confussed about his official family name. While it's sure that the original form must be Königsberg, I wonder what form he has in his papers... does he have an umlaut in his american passport? German wikipedia lists Konigsberg without umlaut.
popolfi -- 217.224.15.195 11:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Chowbok is correct. Of course Woody Allen is of German descent and thus he has a German name. Of course, as he is a Yiddish Jew we are not allowed to say he is of German descent so we can keep wikipedia's myth of Jewish racial purity. _ Anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.86.174 ( talk) 11:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Did he renounce his atheism or something? The cats for him are gone. Rusted AutoParts ( talk) 2:29 7 October 2011 (UTC)
This subject has come up twice before on this talk page, but nobody has suggested multiple birth names. In looking up Woody Allen's birth name, I found a lot of sources saying Allen, a lot of sources saying Allan, and a few saying Alan. I was looking only at sources published before Wikipedia started in 2003, so as to avoid circular referencing.
I think we should tell the reader that various birth names are reported. I do not think we should choose one of them as being the one true answer. Binksternet ( talk) 17:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
There is no text on this in the article except for "Allen has described himself as being a "militant Freudian atheist".[139]".
In an interview to an Israeli newspaper he goes into more detail:
(translated by Google):
"Hero in the magic light of the moon is completely realistic and speaks in my name," he declares, "He felt that what you see is what there is, there is no 'meaning' life, no special purpose to the universe, there is no life after death, and the rest is nonsense - Religion , clairvoyants. everything is cheating. nothing to do with the sad reality of life. character played by Colin that people are being misled by religious leaders, mind readers and fortune tellers using a crystal ball. understands that while there are some moments that are alive - with her mother, for example - or a magical touch here and there, yet it as part of the somber shadow of the grim reality under which we all live. " Still, there is one dramatic moment in the film where he really anxious and pray to God, then comes to his senses and decides that everything is nonsense. It seems that you yourself discover so cynical towards this character. "This is totally cynical.'s The reality. You can get to a hospital, like him, and pray, but there is no meaning. Hoping and praying it meaningless. Whether you have good doctors and a little luck you'll be fine. Whether the situation is against you you can pray day and night , but it will not help. "
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4551878,00.html 79.180.48.165 ( talk) 21:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I find it odd that there is not much discussion regarding Allen's relationship with Soon-Yi Previn. In Allen's Wikipedia page, there are quotes of him telling jokes about marrying Soon-Yi who, outside of celebritydom, is his daughter. In Mia Farrow's Wikipedia page, there is no mention of Woody Allen marrying her (their) daughter. Could anyone enlighten me?
-- Doug Roy, P.Eng. ( talk) 22:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
No one cares about his filmography as an actor (currently shown). Either show his directorial filmography or defer the whole thing to the dedicated page. 104.59.83.70 ( talk) 01:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Here's a July 29th interview with Woody Allen, conducted by Sam Fragoso, on NPR. One of things it gets into is Allen's psychoanalysis - how much, when on and off. (The article makes it sound like he's been in analysis most of his life without a break.) His perception of his career is also discussed as is his relationship with his wife and teenage daughters. http://www.npr.org/2015/07/29/426827865/at-79-woody-allen-says-theres-still-time-to-do-his-best-work Thank you, Wordreader ( talk) 07:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Allen has said in an interview that Match Point "may be the best film that I've made." [2] I think this is quite a significant and noteworthy statement by Allen and is worth mentioning in the lead section after his best-known films. What do you think? – IAmTylerSanders ( talk) 21:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
This section is all out of order. It starts by referencing "the sexual abuse case," which has not even been introduced yet. What charges? They need to be described and explained before being referenced. Further, what's stated in the first paragraph seems at odds with the conclusions stated in the rest of the section. I hope someone is interested in cleaning this up? Chafe66 ( talk) 04:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
The whole section only gives Allen's side on the story and must be rewritten. I have tried, but my edits have been reversed. Maybe a bug, maybe a Woody Allen fan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.240.125.70 ( talk) 18:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
What about the New York Times? http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/02/23/reviews/farrow-verdict.html The veredict of the Judge is not an invention from tabloids — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheAlitxu ( talk • contribs) 23:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/02/woody-allen-sex-abuse-10-facts much more meat. the current state of this section is a disgrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.48.150.172 ( talk) 16:01, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Some editors are misusing the article to slant an incident (via the closed allegation) that took place about 24 years ago. They are relying on primary sources, namely original court documents and the judge's decision, to create an imbalanced synthesis, instead of the more neutral secondary sources, as preferred. The section has thereby become overloaded with new minutiae, including two obviously non-neutral letters. This effectively turns the section into a new platform to reopen the now closed case and restate opinions. The new open letter by Ronan, an opinion piece, even compares the incident to Bill Cosby's. It is evidence only that any publication, whether the Hollywood Reporter or New York Times, will be happy to attract readership by using tabloid sensationalism.
To further slant the neutrality of the subject, the latest edits removed a number of reliable sources and citations, along with quotes, without explanation. -- Light show ( talk) 04:34, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
I am sorry, but how come present state of article recounting affair is considered valid? There were obviously numerous changes in the article since, always reverted back. As you pointed out, Wikipedia is not a tabloid. But interestingly, the section now is relying predominantly on one source - even thought cited in more publications. It does not mean it is valid. It means, what you wrote before, it is feeding press.
This section is one sided and facts are not correct. Why do you think it is better do cite Moses Farrow than court documents? Why is in article repeatedly falsely pointing out friendship between Mia Farrow and journalist, who was investigating the affair? This man is a Pulitzer-winning author with no personal interest whatsoever. So how come it is labeled "unreliable" opposing to the Moses Farrow bits?
I am deeply concerned about the state of the article. And I am obviously not the only one. Please consider other sources, and more importantly, consider the validity of sources more thoroughtly. AboutGirl ( talk) 10:06, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
I leave it to Allen mavens to determine whether a mention of Allen's long-time private secretary belongs on the page. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 15:15, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
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Recent edits changed spelling of birth surname from Konigsberg to Königsberg (with Ö), even in the source quotation. Is that correct? The changes seem to me a bit suspicious and there's no explanation given in the edit summary.- ז62 ( talk) 13:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
In the section on the sexual abuse allegations, it states that the court appointed doctor, John Leventhal, never interviewed Dylan. In fact, he interviewed her nine times according to a New York Times article cited on the page... http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/nyregion/doctor-cites-inconsistencies-in-dylan-farrow-s-statements.html. This error may be a deliberate act of bad faith in an attempt to discredit the information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:7109:cd00:c49d:ba42:52c8:f167 ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 September 2017
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I suggest adding the following to the end of the first paragraph on Soon-Yi:
Her adoptive parents have estimated her birth date as October 8, 1970. [1]
This reference was obtained from the article on Andre Previn. 2601:141:300:9103:21E:C2FF:FE9F:4C2 ( talk) 13:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
References
How can you make an accurate differentiation when both his parents have publicly expressed their doubts [1] [2] about Ronan's biological relation to Allen? You have to ask yourself, under such circumstances, is this differentiation really worth mentioning? Gene2010 ( talk) 00:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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cite web}}
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suggested) (
help)
Is he my son or, as Mia suggests, Frank Sinatra's? Granted, he looks a lot like Frank with the blue eyes and facial features, but if so what does this say? That all during the custody hearing Mia lied under oath and falsely represented Ronan as our son?