A fact from Womb veil appeared on Wikipedia's
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check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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What should this article be about?
Consider Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. This article (especially the lead) focused too much on the term 'womb veil', rather than on the device(s) that bore that name. Zodon ( talk) 04:13, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is not 'medical' in the sense of dealing with a current medical topic. It is historical and cultural. Although the freudian analysis is a case anecdote, WIkipedia does sometimes give examples, and the interpretation of the 'womb veil' in an overtly psychoanalytic context seems interesting to me, as well as indicative of how contraception related to psychiatric practice at the time. That is, the physician himself made the connection between the dream and the social pressures the woman felt regarding contraception. Dream analysis (as far as I'm concerned) is a historical phenomenon, and thus is of cultural and historical interest. It isn't clinical, but the article is about social and cultural history as it pertains to the 'womb veil' (a non-technical term that reflects a popular usage). I think the anecdote helps present a picture of cultural attitudes. Cynwolfe ( talk) 12:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Psychological effects were also reported. A woman who had already given birth to three healthy children sought information about birth control after her husband refused to take precautions. Becoming pregnant again, she had induced an abortion. Her fear of pregnancy had caused her to avoid intercourse and, in the Freudian psychoanalytic terms used by her doctor H.W. Frink, "suppress her libido," believing that a woman's orgasm was necessary to conceive. After a cousin directed her toward the use of a womb veil, she was troubled by a dream in which she killed family members with a red mushroom-shaped club. Later, the woman recalled attending a Bible class taught by a doctor who condemned "anything to keep from having children," saying that to do so was as bad as murdering one's family. Frink, an attending physician in the department of nervous diseases at Cornell University, saw the object wielded by the woman in her dream as a symbol combining the red rubber catheter with which she had induced her miscarriage, with the mushroom-shaped womb veil she continued to use. Frink believed that they had uncovered the etiology of her neurosis, and that her case was an example of the value of dream analysis. The patient's state of mind was said to have improved, and her desire for sex returned, after she realized she disagreed with her Bible-class instructor's view of birth control. [1]
References
There is a comment about a DYK hook in the article. It says to edit the hook as well as the lead when editing. However there is no indication where this hook is, or how to edit it. A little searching suggests that DYK means did you know. But I was not able to find where this hook is or how to edit it. Please fix the hook, or provide a link to where to go to fix it. At the very least the comment should indicate where said hook is, and after what date the comment is no longer valid. Thanks. Zodon ( talk) 08:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
First, let me say that this is an excellent article. Very well written and thoroughly researched! I imagine some of the criticism regarding this article has to do with the fact that Wikipedia lacks any organized coverage of the history of female contraception, thus the desire to re-purpose your article towards a more general focus. The fact that Wikipedia contains an extensive article on the History of condoms, but very little about the history of female contraception isn't surprising. However, I do believe that this article can stand on its own. There are a few paragraphs, however, that are not entirely specific to womb veils and at some point in the future perhaps should be moved to a more general article (or used as the basis for beginning such an article).
I do have a couple of specific suggestion for improving the article. The Social history section seems to follow a chronological order with the notable exception of Emma Goldman. Goldman was not a contraceptive activist until the beginning of the 20th Century, so perhaps she should be moved to later in that section rather than being presented at the beginning. I would also encourage you to become familiar with Wikipedia's citation templates, as they help enforce a consistent citation style across the project. If you ever get to the point of nominating the article for featured article status, use of the citation templates will be expected. Your current citations are entirely acceptable, however, so this is just a suggestion, not a criticism. Kaldari ( talk) 15:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Since there are records of contraceptive pessaries going back to ancient Egypt it does not make sense to say that "The contraceptive use of pessaries likely arose from the 19th-century practice of correcting a prolapsed uterus with such a device;"
compare to: "There are historic records of Egyptian women using a pessary made of various acidic substances and lubricated with honey or oil. [1]"
While some might maintain that contraceptive pessaries were a new development in the 19th century, there are clearly other views on the matter. I edited the history to make it clearer that such a 19th century development would be at best a redevelopment of something that is much older. However that was reverted. [1]
Although it is asserted that this article is just about a device called the womb veil, no technology is developed without antecedents. The article acknowledges some such antecedents (such as German cervical caps). Wikipedia policy is to include relevant alternate views, (e.g., that contraceptive pessaries are a 19th century development, versus that they were used long before that), not to present just one. Zodon ( talk) 05:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
References
I posted this article innocently and didn't expect it to be controversial. I found the term "womb veil" while researching a topic pertaining to the history of gynecology in antiquity, my usual area of contributing. I looked it up on Wikipedia, and found only a passing mention in (of all articles!) Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln. Again, this points to its distinctly 19th-century American character.
My only aim was to provide an article for anyone else who likewise encountered the term and tried to look it up. This requires more than a dictionary entry, because it isn't a simple matter to say what it was. Usage of the term is limited to 19th-century and early 20th-century American English, as far as I can determine. It applies first to the product marketed by Foote, and then becomes the most common term for certain related forms of female barrier contraception of the diaphragm/cervical cap type. The term seems to disappear with the medicalization of birth control in the 1920s (maybe no mention after 1912 or so). 'Womb veil' was neither a single device, nor a term that could apply to just any form of inserted contraceptive device. Rather, the usage of the term reflects a medical and social reality before the professionalization or medicalization of birth control. It is significant as a reflection of contraceptive attitudes and practices that are specific to 19th-century America up to ca. 1920.
Researching "womb veil" also led to my posting an article, or the start of one, on the Popular Health Movement of the Jacksonian Era, which seemed necessary for understanding this topic. Again, there is a particular social and historical context in which the womb veil must be placed.
Just as we wouldn't call an article "horse-drawn buggy" and then talk about chariots and Ferraris, "womb veil" is not the place to talk about barrier contraception in ancient Egypt or anywhere else. The article History of barrier contraception for women should be written from scratch, not overwritten on this one. As Kaldari perceptively observed, History of condoms already exists, but not the equivalent for barrier contraception used by women. I would suggest to Zodon that he might better spend his time and considerable energy starting that article.
It's also true that if there'd been an article called "Contraception in the 19th-century United States," "womb veil" could've been a mere section in it. No such article existed. Until it does, womb veil provides some information on the subject. Cynwolfe ( talk) 13:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The article suggests that Edward Bliss Foote is responsible for introducing the term "womb veil" (specifically for his rubber pessary). The book Disciplining reproduction, however, suggests that the term may have been used prior to that. What is the earliest use of the term? Does it ever refer to anything other than a rubber pessary? Kaldari ( talk) 13:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
This section quotes Rotter as writing, "In England, however, where such goods are openly advertised and sold, competition tends to secure the survival of the fittest, and hence it is better to import them from country." Is there a word missing in this quote? It seems like it would have been written as "import them from this country" or something similar... --Akhilleus ( talk) 18:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
A fact from Womb veil appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 21 April 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
What should this article be about?
Consider Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. This article (especially the lead) focused too much on the term 'womb veil', rather than on the device(s) that bore that name. Zodon ( talk) 04:13, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is not 'medical' in the sense of dealing with a current medical topic. It is historical and cultural. Although the freudian analysis is a case anecdote, WIkipedia does sometimes give examples, and the interpretation of the 'womb veil' in an overtly psychoanalytic context seems interesting to me, as well as indicative of how contraception related to psychiatric practice at the time. That is, the physician himself made the connection between the dream and the social pressures the woman felt regarding contraception. Dream analysis (as far as I'm concerned) is a historical phenomenon, and thus is of cultural and historical interest. It isn't clinical, but the article is about social and cultural history as it pertains to the 'womb veil' (a non-technical term that reflects a popular usage). I think the anecdote helps present a picture of cultural attitudes. Cynwolfe ( talk) 12:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Psychological effects were also reported. A woman who had already given birth to three healthy children sought information about birth control after her husband refused to take precautions. Becoming pregnant again, she had induced an abortion. Her fear of pregnancy had caused her to avoid intercourse and, in the Freudian psychoanalytic terms used by her doctor H.W. Frink, "suppress her libido," believing that a woman's orgasm was necessary to conceive. After a cousin directed her toward the use of a womb veil, she was troubled by a dream in which she killed family members with a red mushroom-shaped club. Later, the woman recalled attending a Bible class taught by a doctor who condemned "anything to keep from having children," saying that to do so was as bad as murdering one's family. Frink, an attending physician in the department of nervous diseases at Cornell University, saw the object wielded by the woman in her dream as a symbol combining the red rubber catheter with which she had induced her miscarriage, with the mushroom-shaped womb veil she continued to use. Frink believed that they had uncovered the etiology of her neurosis, and that her case was an example of the value of dream analysis. The patient's state of mind was said to have improved, and her desire for sex returned, after she realized she disagreed with her Bible-class instructor's view of birth control. [1]
References
There is a comment about a DYK hook in the article. It says to edit the hook as well as the lead when editing. However there is no indication where this hook is, or how to edit it. A little searching suggests that DYK means did you know. But I was not able to find where this hook is or how to edit it. Please fix the hook, or provide a link to where to go to fix it. At the very least the comment should indicate where said hook is, and after what date the comment is no longer valid. Thanks. Zodon ( talk) 08:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
First, let me say that this is an excellent article. Very well written and thoroughly researched! I imagine some of the criticism regarding this article has to do with the fact that Wikipedia lacks any organized coverage of the history of female contraception, thus the desire to re-purpose your article towards a more general focus. The fact that Wikipedia contains an extensive article on the History of condoms, but very little about the history of female contraception isn't surprising. However, I do believe that this article can stand on its own. There are a few paragraphs, however, that are not entirely specific to womb veils and at some point in the future perhaps should be moved to a more general article (or used as the basis for beginning such an article).
I do have a couple of specific suggestion for improving the article. The Social history section seems to follow a chronological order with the notable exception of Emma Goldman. Goldman was not a contraceptive activist until the beginning of the 20th Century, so perhaps she should be moved to later in that section rather than being presented at the beginning. I would also encourage you to become familiar with Wikipedia's citation templates, as they help enforce a consistent citation style across the project. If you ever get to the point of nominating the article for featured article status, use of the citation templates will be expected. Your current citations are entirely acceptable, however, so this is just a suggestion, not a criticism. Kaldari ( talk) 15:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Since there are records of contraceptive pessaries going back to ancient Egypt it does not make sense to say that "The contraceptive use of pessaries likely arose from the 19th-century practice of correcting a prolapsed uterus with such a device;"
compare to: "There are historic records of Egyptian women using a pessary made of various acidic substances and lubricated with honey or oil. [1]"
While some might maintain that contraceptive pessaries were a new development in the 19th century, there are clearly other views on the matter. I edited the history to make it clearer that such a 19th century development would be at best a redevelopment of something that is much older. However that was reverted. [1]
Although it is asserted that this article is just about a device called the womb veil, no technology is developed without antecedents. The article acknowledges some such antecedents (such as German cervical caps). Wikipedia policy is to include relevant alternate views, (e.g., that contraceptive pessaries are a 19th century development, versus that they were used long before that), not to present just one. Zodon ( talk) 05:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
References
I posted this article innocently and didn't expect it to be controversial. I found the term "womb veil" while researching a topic pertaining to the history of gynecology in antiquity, my usual area of contributing. I looked it up on Wikipedia, and found only a passing mention in (of all articles!) Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln. Again, this points to its distinctly 19th-century American character.
My only aim was to provide an article for anyone else who likewise encountered the term and tried to look it up. This requires more than a dictionary entry, because it isn't a simple matter to say what it was. Usage of the term is limited to 19th-century and early 20th-century American English, as far as I can determine. It applies first to the product marketed by Foote, and then becomes the most common term for certain related forms of female barrier contraception of the diaphragm/cervical cap type. The term seems to disappear with the medicalization of birth control in the 1920s (maybe no mention after 1912 or so). 'Womb veil' was neither a single device, nor a term that could apply to just any form of inserted contraceptive device. Rather, the usage of the term reflects a medical and social reality before the professionalization or medicalization of birth control. It is significant as a reflection of contraceptive attitudes and practices that are specific to 19th-century America up to ca. 1920.
Researching "womb veil" also led to my posting an article, or the start of one, on the Popular Health Movement of the Jacksonian Era, which seemed necessary for understanding this topic. Again, there is a particular social and historical context in which the womb veil must be placed.
Just as we wouldn't call an article "horse-drawn buggy" and then talk about chariots and Ferraris, "womb veil" is not the place to talk about barrier contraception in ancient Egypt or anywhere else. The article History of barrier contraception for women should be written from scratch, not overwritten on this one. As Kaldari perceptively observed, History of condoms already exists, but not the equivalent for barrier contraception used by women. I would suggest to Zodon that he might better spend his time and considerable energy starting that article.
It's also true that if there'd been an article called "Contraception in the 19th-century United States," "womb veil" could've been a mere section in it. No such article existed. Until it does, womb veil provides some information on the subject. Cynwolfe ( talk) 13:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The article suggests that Edward Bliss Foote is responsible for introducing the term "womb veil" (specifically for his rubber pessary). The book Disciplining reproduction, however, suggests that the term may have been used prior to that. What is the earliest use of the term? Does it ever refer to anything other than a rubber pessary? Kaldari ( talk) 13:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
This section quotes Rotter as writing, "In England, however, where such goods are openly advertised and sold, competition tends to secure the survival of the fittest, and hence it is better to import them from country." Is there a word missing in this quote? It seems like it would have been written as "import them from this country" or something similar... --Akhilleus ( talk) 18:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)