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This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 12:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know if it is named after the town or the royal family? Mannafredo ( talk) 11:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The link to White Windsor Soup appears to be broken. It claims to link to the Wikipedia article on the subject but there isn't one ( 81.2.101.178 ( talk) 17:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC))
The notion that BWS is a post-war joke is contradicted by the hundreds of sources available through, for example, Google Books. We do not overthrow that for speculation in a couple of newspaper articles. Clanclub ( talk) 20:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Non-existance of evidence is not evidence of non-existance. There is evidence that BWS predates the 1950s. The problem is that much of it is as ephemera - menus and the like. There are, however, some firm pieces of evidence. The earliest I know of is a menu that appeared in The Portsmouth Evening News - Wednesday 24 February 1926, page 3: An advertisement for Cadena Cafes of 20 Osborne Road Portsmouth. The Special Table d'Hote Luncheon features Brown Windsor Soup. That was for the 2/6 choice rather than the 2/- alternative. So it appears that in 1926 at least, Brown Windsor Soup was positioned as an upmarket version of brown soup. The British Newspaper Archive also features a number of other examples through the late 1920s to 1930s. Portsmouth Evening News 24th February 1926 Page 3 . Mbbowe ( talk) 13:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I can tell you from personal knowledge that BWS was available and consumed regularly through the Second World War and in the forties following it. I believe it fell out of favour for the very reason that people associated it with wartime shortages and were sick of the sight and taste of it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.165.103 ( talk • contribs)
The generally reliable World Wide Words also found no significant mention before the 1950s, but adds a few nuggets to its possible origins. Onanoff ( talk) 10:22, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
If White Windsor soup is "well-known" and "equally famous", why 1) is there no article about White Windsor soup 2) is Windsor soup redirected here? Btw, it might be of notice that Jamie Oliver offers his own recipe that includes Marmite. [2] -- 146.255.183.110 ( talk) 13:35, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
References
I have a working theory the soup is a case of " lipstick on a pig". The key fact is that there is no consistent recipe for the soup. The soup could have been made with anything the chef might have available that day, likely the leftovers from yesterday. A brown soup stock can be made by simply browning flour. This reuse of leftovers in soups is common in the restaurant business. The "Windsor" name was added to give it a gloss of something of class or importance, instead of the murky name "brown soup". Thus during the 1920s and 30s, it earned a reputation (or lack of one) which became a butt of jokes after the war. -- Green C 16:24, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Having just eaten a can of oxtail soup for lunch, I wonder if BWS was a variant of, or alternative name for, oxtail soup. The UK version of this is a dark brown fairly runny soup with no obvious evidence of oxtail or other whole ingredients in it. It remains a standard canned soup variety in British supermarkets and is reasonably popular. It was around when I was a child 60 years ago, and presumably is much older than that. -- Ef80 ( talk) 12:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The article presently says "Quinion says there is no connection to the royal family itself since Windsor soup predates 1917, when the family changed its name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor."
The link then gives "A few very early recipes for Windsor soup say it should include Windsor beans, presumably the source of the name (despite one claim online, there’s no connection with the British royal family, which changed its name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor only in 1917)."
Quinion is basically incorrect; although the Royal Family have only been the Windsors since 1917, the town of Windsor has been connected with them since the year dot because of the castle there. And Victoria - from whose era the soup is meant to have come - basically lived at Windsor when she was not at Balmoral after Albert died. So there is a fundamental incorrectness here. 88.104.160.83 ( talk) 18:25, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth.
There was a product regularly advertised for sale in Sydney Town in 1832, imported by 'druggists' (meaning chemists, pharmacists) named 'Brown Windsor Soap'.
Now, whether 'Brown Windsor Soup' became a Victorian-era pun, applying this name to an unappetising dish, who can say?
The soap exists and can be Googled. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:E90F:4EF5:838:AED9 ( talk) 22:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
The more I learn about this multifacted soup history, the question remains, and the one that Michael Quinion attempts to narrow on, how did it go from a delicate upper-end recipe served in the world's best restaurants to a cafeteria gruel and ultimately an icon of bad English food. The transition appears to have happened between the turn of the century and the early 1920s. The celebrity chefs were still making it by 1900 as evidenced in cook books. By 1920s it is showing up in provincial cafeterias when the name "Brown Windsor" first appears. The major event of that period was WWI, though it doesn't need to be that, it would be an obvious candidate for a catalyst. -- Green C 00:01, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
After extensive research the article has been totally rewritten and expanded as of April 2020, following are some notes while it's still fresh in my mind.
-- Green C 14:39, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Even though few Brits have ever actually spotted brown Windsor soup in the wild, many will staunchly defend its historic reputation. Glyn Hughes has spent years challenging the Victorian roots of brown Windsor soup—"I keep trying to correct the Wikipedia page, but I've given up"—and has faced considerable fury for his efforts.
Oh what a lot of nonsense. Nobody tried to "correct" the article. Nor has there been "considerable fury" lol. The article does not say Brown Windsor soup originated in the Victorian era. Everything Hughes says in that article (that is accurate) was lifted straight out of Wikipedia based on research and writing done by volunteer editors and other sources; then he tries to cover his tracks by saying Wikipedia is the problem - rather than his actual source. We frequently see stuff like this, people taking credit for material they found on Wikipedia then disparaging Wikipedia. For example Hughes says he researched the British Railway Menus, but as our article shows, this was done by Malcolm Timperley, a researcher in the National Railway Museum's library in 2016. Hughes says he researched the British Newspaper Archive, but as this talk page shows (above), it was done by a previous Wikipedia editor years ago. He is simply repeating research he found on Wikipedia then claiming he did it. The hilarious thing he confidently says it was all a joke mixup with Brown Windsor Soap - but as our article shows this is pure speculation without any evidence, and, it's contradicted by real Brown Windsor Soup on store menus in the 1920s. Some joke. -- Green C 23:13, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Windsor soup article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 12:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know if it is named after the town or the royal family? Mannafredo ( talk) 11:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The link to White Windsor Soup appears to be broken. It claims to link to the Wikipedia article on the subject but there isn't one ( 81.2.101.178 ( talk) 17:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC))
The notion that BWS is a post-war joke is contradicted by the hundreds of sources available through, for example, Google Books. We do not overthrow that for speculation in a couple of newspaper articles. Clanclub ( talk) 20:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Non-existance of evidence is not evidence of non-existance. There is evidence that BWS predates the 1950s. The problem is that much of it is as ephemera - menus and the like. There are, however, some firm pieces of evidence. The earliest I know of is a menu that appeared in The Portsmouth Evening News - Wednesday 24 February 1926, page 3: An advertisement for Cadena Cafes of 20 Osborne Road Portsmouth. The Special Table d'Hote Luncheon features Brown Windsor Soup. That was for the 2/6 choice rather than the 2/- alternative. So it appears that in 1926 at least, Brown Windsor Soup was positioned as an upmarket version of brown soup. The British Newspaper Archive also features a number of other examples through the late 1920s to 1930s. Portsmouth Evening News 24th February 1926 Page 3 . Mbbowe ( talk) 13:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I can tell you from personal knowledge that BWS was available and consumed regularly through the Second World War and in the forties following it. I believe it fell out of favour for the very reason that people associated it with wartime shortages and were sick of the sight and taste of it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.165.103 ( talk • contribs)
The generally reliable World Wide Words also found no significant mention before the 1950s, but adds a few nuggets to its possible origins. Onanoff ( talk) 10:22, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
If White Windsor soup is "well-known" and "equally famous", why 1) is there no article about White Windsor soup 2) is Windsor soup redirected here? Btw, it might be of notice that Jamie Oliver offers his own recipe that includes Marmite. [2] -- 146.255.183.110 ( talk) 13:35, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
References
I have a working theory the soup is a case of " lipstick on a pig". The key fact is that there is no consistent recipe for the soup. The soup could have been made with anything the chef might have available that day, likely the leftovers from yesterday. A brown soup stock can be made by simply browning flour. This reuse of leftovers in soups is common in the restaurant business. The "Windsor" name was added to give it a gloss of something of class or importance, instead of the murky name "brown soup". Thus during the 1920s and 30s, it earned a reputation (or lack of one) which became a butt of jokes after the war. -- Green C 16:24, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Having just eaten a can of oxtail soup for lunch, I wonder if BWS was a variant of, or alternative name for, oxtail soup. The UK version of this is a dark brown fairly runny soup with no obvious evidence of oxtail or other whole ingredients in it. It remains a standard canned soup variety in British supermarkets and is reasonably popular. It was around when I was a child 60 years ago, and presumably is much older than that. -- Ef80 ( talk) 12:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The article presently says "Quinion says there is no connection to the royal family itself since Windsor soup predates 1917, when the family changed its name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor."
The link then gives "A few very early recipes for Windsor soup say it should include Windsor beans, presumably the source of the name (despite one claim online, there’s no connection with the British royal family, which changed its name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor only in 1917)."
Quinion is basically incorrect; although the Royal Family have only been the Windsors since 1917, the town of Windsor has been connected with them since the year dot because of the castle there. And Victoria - from whose era the soup is meant to have come - basically lived at Windsor when she was not at Balmoral after Albert died. So there is a fundamental incorrectness here. 88.104.160.83 ( talk) 18:25, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth.
There was a product regularly advertised for sale in Sydney Town in 1832, imported by 'druggists' (meaning chemists, pharmacists) named 'Brown Windsor Soap'.
Now, whether 'Brown Windsor Soup' became a Victorian-era pun, applying this name to an unappetising dish, who can say?
The soap exists and can be Googled. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:E90F:4EF5:838:AED9 ( talk) 22:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
The more I learn about this multifacted soup history, the question remains, and the one that Michael Quinion attempts to narrow on, how did it go from a delicate upper-end recipe served in the world's best restaurants to a cafeteria gruel and ultimately an icon of bad English food. The transition appears to have happened between the turn of the century and the early 1920s. The celebrity chefs were still making it by 1900 as evidenced in cook books. By 1920s it is showing up in provincial cafeterias when the name "Brown Windsor" first appears. The major event of that period was WWI, though it doesn't need to be that, it would be an obvious candidate for a catalyst. -- Green C 00:01, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
After extensive research the article has been totally rewritten and expanded as of April 2020, following are some notes while it's still fresh in my mind.
-- Green C 14:39, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Even though few Brits have ever actually spotted brown Windsor soup in the wild, many will staunchly defend its historic reputation. Glyn Hughes has spent years challenging the Victorian roots of brown Windsor soup—"I keep trying to correct the Wikipedia page, but I've given up"—and has faced considerable fury for his efforts.
Oh what a lot of nonsense. Nobody tried to "correct" the article. Nor has there been "considerable fury" lol. The article does not say Brown Windsor soup originated in the Victorian era. Everything Hughes says in that article (that is accurate) was lifted straight out of Wikipedia based on research and writing done by volunteer editors and other sources; then he tries to cover his tracks by saying Wikipedia is the problem - rather than his actual source. We frequently see stuff like this, people taking credit for material they found on Wikipedia then disparaging Wikipedia. For example Hughes says he researched the British Railway Menus, but as our article shows, this was done by Malcolm Timperley, a researcher in the National Railway Museum's library in 2016. Hughes says he researched the British Newspaper Archive, but as this talk page shows (above), it was done by a previous Wikipedia editor years ago. He is simply repeating research he found on Wikipedia then claiming he did it. The hilarious thing he confidently says it was all a joke mixup with Brown Windsor Soap - but as our article shows this is pure speculation without any evidence, and, it's contradicted by real Brown Windsor Soup on store menus in the 1920s. Some joke. -- Green C 23:13, 17 January 2022 (UTC)