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Canadian TV news has photos of Colleen Shipman and say that Nowak had an affair with Oefelein at CFB Val-Cartier, when they were doing cold weather and isolation training.
CTV Nightly News - Tue, Feb 7, 2007
CBC News - Tue, Feb 7, 2007
70.51.11.102 06:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Global Nationa; - Tue, Feb 7, 2007 (Canada)
Global National: NASA love triangle
CNN
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/ssi/js/1.3/main.js
NASA love triangle?
Bizarre space love triangle
Astronaut makes court appearance
I'm removing reference to her because she seems to have made conflicting statements to the media. [1] Gwen Gale 17:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a "separate relationships" section from this article because I have serious concerns that it could give severe undue weight to the topics of LN and CS in his very short biography here as an astronaut, the latter for which he is noted. Astronauts, unlike movie actors for example, are not (yet, anyway) noted for their personal relationships. Lastly, other than their training together, Oefelein's relationship with LN is as yet almost wholly undocumented. I would be willing to compromise, however, with a different title for a subsection dealing only with the LN news reports. Gwen Gale 21:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Personally I like having it as a seperate section. If you think there is undue weight being put on that section you are free to expand the other sections. Yes, he is notable for being an astronaut, but that isn't what put his picture on the front page of CNN. VegaDark 23:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know I'm free to add material to the article. You may like it as a separate section, but you haven't explained why a separate section might conform to WP policy. Until the article is expanded, undue weight remains a serious risk to NPoV. Meanwhile, I've placed mention of the Nowak incident in a separate sub-section with a corresponding title and truth be told, you are mistaken, his being an astronaut is spot on what put him into the news.
His relationship with LN is almost wholly undocumented. Including her in a "relationships" section would be very hard to support through verfiable secondary sources. Gwen Gale 23:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
This edit carried the edit summary:
The word "however" is mandatory because Oefelein and Nowak are contradicting each other. It does not imply that Oefelein is truthful and Nowak is not. DO NOT EDIT WAR OVER THIS)
This is WP:OR. Please provide a verifiable citation from a reliable source which supports the assertion WO and LN contradicted each other. Thanks. Gwen Gale 11:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
She said no romantic relationship, he said there was a romantic relationship. This is a contradiction. -- 192.45.72.27 17:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
If I may intrude, I think that there is a misunderstanding based upon certain ambiguities in what was said.
Here is the text as of revision 115845902:
The first sentence raises some questions: is Nowak talking about her relationship with Oefelein as of the time of her arrest? Is she describing the past few months or years? This is an important distinction, because both sentences could be correct, if this is understood as a romantic relationship that has since dissolved.
Likewise, with the second sentence, with the word "however", it highlights a contradiction between the two astronauts' statements, when there may or may not have been any contradiction in what actually occurred. I'm still trying to decide if omitting the word "however" is better, worse, or the same as leaving it in. I don't have any ideas for better wording at the moment. -- Kyok o 02:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I still think the word However is necessary as the two gave a different version of their relationships. Saying their reltionship is less than romantic implies that it was never romantic. Otherwise, the relationship is really that of an ex-boyfriend/ex-girlfriend. -- However whatever 22:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it's just me, but cite 4 "Astronaut charged in bizarre love triangle" links to MSNBC Page not found. The same title on an Associated Press story links here, which says Earlier, Nowak was quoted by police as saying she and Oefelein had something "more than a working relationship but less than a romantic relationship." – so it would be best to modify the sentence to read "Police stated that Nowak described her relationship...", unless we're less cautious than the press and assume that this police statement will stand. Cite 5 " Associated Press, Shuttle Pilot: Nowak Showed No Emotion" takes me to a Mar 8, 9:53 AM EST AP story titled "Astronaut Lisa Nowak Fired From NASA" which does not have the quotation used in the article. Do AP use the same link for different stories over time, and can we get a better link for the article? ... dave souza, talk 11:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I am at a loss to understand the dispute over the use of this word. It is on the list at Wikipedia:Words to avoid and the meaning of the sentence is totally clear without it. It clearly does not belong. WjB scribe 22:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The statements, as quoted form verifiable citations, are contradictory. They do not match. -- However whatever 23:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
That's from when you were posting to this page as User:Baba gump. Then there was User:Banana Republic. Oh and by the bye the diff you cited is viewable by all in my talk page archive, which is automatically maintained by a bot. Gwen Gale 04:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the exclusion of the word however in this instance of the article, on the passage in question... - Denny 02:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Just FYI, should contributors here wish to include information: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/However whatever. thanks. - Denny 04:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the problem here is a matter of interpretation regarding what Nowak and Oefelein said.
Let's take the following sentence:
Set against a timeline where each character (except for |) represents a week, we get:
????????????????????X Nowak's statement
OCT |NOV |DEC |JAN |FEB
2006|2006|2006|2007|2007
Based solely upon Nowak's statement, and assuming that she was being accurate in what she said, all we can deduce is that at the time of the first week of February 2007, Nowak's relationship with Oefelein was closer than just a purely professional relationship but not as close as a romantic one. This is represented by the X in the graph above. While it can reasonably be conjectured that this also describes their relationship in the time prior to Nowak's arrest, we just can't be sure one way or the other, which is why there are question marks prior to the first week of February 2007. Based only on this statement, we can't know if Nowak had a romantic relationship with Oefelein or not, because the information just isn't there.
In revision 115845902, there is the following sentence:
Note the revision number. I'll get to that later.
Setting this sentence of this revision against the timeline above, we get:
????????????????????X Nowak's statement
++++XXXX Oefelein's statement
OCT |NOV |DEC |JAN |FEB |
2006|2006|2006|2007|2007
In the sentence of this revision, Oefelein says that he had a romantic relationship with Nowak (represented by +), but that he ended it in November 2006. He doesn't specify which week he terminated the relationship. Because of the ambiguity of Nowak's statement, it can be seen that what Oefelein said doesn't necessarily contradict what Nowak said.
Revision 116212441 of the page says that the end of the Oefelein-Nowak relationship took place in January 2007 rather than November 2006. The Orlando Sentinel article doesn't explicitly support the January 2007 date, but it does say the following:
Again, there is ambiguity in the accounts, but this still doesn't mean that either astronaut's account is inaccurate or deceptive, or that one astronaut's account must necessarily contradict the other's. Even if Oefelein had ended the relationship in January 2007, this would still fit in with Nowak's description of their relationship in February as more than a working one, less than a romantic one, if this is understood as a romantic relationship that has ended but whose emotional ties haven't completely faded away.
The inclusion of the word "however" introduces an editorial slant which forces the two sentences to be read as if they must contradict each other, along the lines of a "he said, she said" dispute, which goes beyond the limited information in the astronauts' words. Including the word "however" in this section is unwarranted, and furthermore, unfair to both astronauts. Keeping in mind the guidelines set forth by WP:BLP, it is far better to leave the word "however" out of the text, and let the readers interpret the statements as they see fit. -- Kyok o 13:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Kyoko. The OR and BLP sides of this are more than enough to leave out that word. Now, only to send things home, I never wanted to stray into this but take it from me, it's spot on what a girl might say, ok? The other person has ended the romantic relationship so to her in truth it's now "less than a romantic... more than a working." Which is why one won't find much independent support for the notion their statements are contradictory. Haha! So many bois about this wiki. Cheers! :) Gwen Gale 14:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Only for context, a rather sympathetic but pithy column about Nowak. Gwen Gale 19:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be proper for you to apologize for this slander. -- However whatever 17:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Do the math. It says they met in November, started dating shortly afterward, and the incident occured in February. Unless my math is wrong, that's approximately 3 months. -- However whatever 17:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I will hereby cease further contributions to this discussion which is going nowhere, as I see that you refuse to apologize for your obvious slander. I will take your refusal into account in all future interactions with you. -- However whatever 17:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes it is best to quote the source as in: According to the New York Times, "Smith dated Jones starting in June of 1999 and married her the next year."[cite goes here] rather than make assumptions that may not be true or for distinctions that can get lost as people edit each other's edits. 4.250.198.151 08:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Need to be incorporated into the article. Poor guy: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070525/ap_on_re_us/astronaut_arrested;_ylt=Ai2GAsiCmYTHqW.n4kZSD2ADW7oF Ikilled007 06:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Naw, it isn't "potentially libelous" unless it it's untrue. It's well-sourced. So, I put it back. Cmichael ( talk) 01:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News reports that Oefelein thinks, or at least implies, that this article contains inaccuracies:
Q. I was just looking at your Wikipedia page ... there's more on there about the Lisa Nowak stuff than your NASA career. Do you feel like that's kind of come to define you at this point?
A. No, I don't think so. Because that stuff is not necessarily accurate. So, you know, I don't think so. I'm not going to talk about any of that, but anything on the Wikipedia as you know, anybody can put on there. If people are going to use that as fact, they've got some problems.
All in all, it seems to me like the Nowak material is relatively brief, and reasonably well sourced. Does anybody know anything specific about Oefelein's complaint? If anything is actually broke, then we need to fix it. Cmichael ( talk) 01:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I know about Oefelein's complaint. He was never "fired" or "dismissed" (btw, "dismissed" is a legal term in the military. It means that he was punitively removed from his position following UCMJ action...that never happened.) He was reassigned to active duty no different than Susan Helms was. He is a combat veteran, who retired honorably from federal service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.238 ( talk) 17:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
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I rolled back edits by anon user User:75.15.182.233 because they were based, in part, on a reference to Oefelein's own web page. You can't use his self-published biography as a source. Cmichael ( talk) 14:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
False and defamatory statements continue to appear in this article. If Wikipedia cannot control false and defamatory publications in this article, then it is Wikipedia's duty to delete the article. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.15.182.233 (
talk)
19:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Your verifiable citations are false. William Oefelein was not "fired" or "terminated." These statements are libelous and defamatory. Also, active duty military assigned to the astronaut corps cannot retire from NASA or the astronaut corps. They retire from the military or get reassigned to active duty service. His status is "retired". Wikipedia is informed of these false and defamatory statements. If it cannot prevent editors from posting statements, which are intentionally, maliciously or negligently defamatory, it is Wikipedia's duty to delete the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.233 ( talk) 20:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
The word "fired" in this instance is a conclusion drawn from the context, not the technical fact of what happened. He was reassigned by the Navy out of the astronaut corps; that may not account for the political subtext, but it is technically correct. I think the infobox should have the technical information (its function, after all) and we can write about his "dismissal" in the body of the article, making it clear that describing it as a dismissal draws a conclusion that doesn't come directly from NASA or the Navy. Nathan T 18:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I have an email from NASA Public Information Office that states Oefelein was never "fired". Who the heck do I have to send this to make Wikipedia STOP PRINTING THIS CRAP? This is such an irresponsible organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.238 ( talk) 17:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Already taken it to the "sources". Corrected a few, but can't afford to correct them all, so we've hired a lawyer to deal with Wikipedia. Wikipedia won't consider Oefelein's own statement as a reliable source, so "discussion" seem futile at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.135.106 ( talk) 15:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the letter mentioned "good standing"' or suggested that his departure from the Astronaut Corps was unrelated to the scandal. Rather, I meant to suggest that that was the type of language that the IP would like to see. He or she obviously objects to the terms "fired" and "dismissed." And I would be agreeable to accommodating the IP by presenting Oefelein's POV (in contrast to the others) if a reliable source for it can be found. WP:V says that "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I just don't see that in zimbio.com. Cmichael ( talk) 20:00, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Gwen correctly points out that as a BLP, we should/can look to Oefelein's own statements. WP:BLP provides the following guidance "Living persons may write or publish material about themselves, such as through press releases. Such material may be used as a source only if: 1.it is not unduly self-serving; 2.it does not involve claims about third parties or unrelated events; 3.there is no reasonable doubt that the subject actually authored it; 4.the article is not based primarily on such sources." For #3, we would have to assume that Oefelein's lawyer is making a statement that Oefelein would make himself. However, I see problems with meeting tests #1 and #2. Oefelein is making a statement that by it's very nature is self-serving and he is making claims about third parties - NASA and USN, their intentions and their actions. Rillian ( talk) 20:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
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Under “Personal Life”, could it be added that “He married the former Michaella Davis in 1988. They had two children and divorced in 2005.”? (If you need sources, would https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Astronaut-in-middle-looked-acted-part-of-space-1813709.php and http://www.astronautix.com/o/oefelein.html do?). I understand and respect that another site was asked to delete the names and birthdates of the children, so I’m not asking for that. Minicarmen ( talk) 05:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Canadian TV news has photos of Colleen Shipman and say that Nowak had an affair with Oefelein at CFB Val-Cartier, when they were doing cold weather and isolation training.
CTV Nightly News - Tue, Feb 7, 2007
CBC News - Tue, Feb 7, 2007
70.51.11.102 06:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Global Nationa; - Tue, Feb 7, 2007 (Canada)
Global National: NASA love triangle
CNN
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/ssi/js/1.3/main.js
NASA love triangle?
Bizarre space love triangle
Astronaut makes court appearance
I'm removing reference to her because she seems to have made conflicting statements to the media. [1] Gwen Gale 17:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a "separate relationships" section from this article because I have serious concerns that it could give severe undue weight to the topics of LN and CS in his very short biography here as an astronaut, the latter for which he is noted. Astronauts, unlike movie actors for example, are not (yet, anyway) noted for their personal relationships. Lastly, other than their training together, Oefelein's relationship with LN is as yet almost wholly undocumented. I would be willing to compromise, however, with a different title for a subsection dealing only with the LN news reports. Gwen Gale 21:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Personally I like having it as a seperate section. If you think there is undue weight being put on that section you are free to expand the other sections. Yes, he is notable for being an astronaut, but that isn't what put his picture on the front page of CNN. VegaDark 23:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know I'm free to add material to the article. You may like it as a separate section, but you haven't explained why a separate section might conform to WP policy. Until the article is expanded, undue weight remains a serious risk to NPoV. Meanwhile, I've placed mention of the Nowak incident in a separate sub-section with a corresponding title and truth be told, you are mistaken, his being an astronaut is spot on what put him into the news.
His relationship with LN is almost wholly undocumented. Including her in a "relationships" section would be very hard to support through verfiable secondary sources. Gwen Gale 23:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
This edit carried the edit summary:
The word "however" is mandatory because Oefelein and Nowak are contradicting each other. It does not imply that Oefelein is truthful and Nowak is not. DO NOT EDIT WAR OVER THIS)
This is WP:OR. Please provide a verifiable citation from a reliable source which supports the assertion WO and LN contradicted each other. Thanks. Gwen Gale 11:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
She said no romantic relationship, he said there was a romantic relationship. This is a contradiction. -- 192.45.72.27 17:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
If I may intrude, I think that there is a misunderstanding based upon certain ambiguities in what was said.
Here is the text as of revision 115845902:
The first sentence raises some questions: is Nowak talking about her relationship with Oefelein as of the time of her arrest? Is she describing the past few months or years? This is an important distinction, because both sentences could be correct, if this is understood as a romantic relationship that has since dissolved.
Likewise, with the second sentence, with the word "however", it highlights a contradiction between the two astronauts' statements, when there may or may not have been any contradiction in what actually occurred. I'm still trying to decide if omitting the word "however" is better, worse, or the same as leaving it in. I don't have any ideas for better wording at the moment. -- Kyok o 02:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I still think the word However is necessary as the two gave a different version of their relationships. Saying their reltionship is less than romantic implies that it was never romantic. Otherwise, the relationship is really that of an ex-boyfriend/ex-girlfriend. -- However whatever 22:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it's just me, but cite 4 "Astronaut charged in bizarre love triangle" links to MSNBC Page not found. The same title on an Associated Press story links here, which says Earlier, Nowak was quoted by police as saying she and Oefelein had something "more than a working relationship but less than a romantic relationship." – so it would be best to modify the sentence to read "Police stated that Nowak described her relationship...", unless we're less cautious than the press and assume that this police statement will stand. Cite 5 " Associated Press, Shuttle Pilot: Nowak Showed No Emotion" takes me to a Mar 8, 9:53 AM EST AP story titled "Astronaut Lisa Nowak Fired From NASA" which does not have the quotation used in the article. Do AP use the same link for different stories over time, and can we get a better link for the article? ... dave souza, talk 11:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I am at a loss to understand the dispute over the use of this word. It is on the list at Wikipedia:Words to avoid and the meaning of the sentence is totally clear without it. It clearly does not belong. WjB scribe 22:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The statements, as quoted form verifiable citations, are contradictory. They do not match. -- However whatever 23:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
That's from when you were posting to this page as User:Baba gump. Then there was User:Banana Republic. Oh and by the bye the diff you cited is viewable by all in my talk page archive, which is automatically maintained by a bot. Gwen Gale 04:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the exclusion of the word however in this instance of the article, on the passage in question... - Denny 02:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Just FYI, should contributors here wish to include information: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/However whatever. thanks. - Denny 04:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the problem here is a matter of interpretation regarding what Nowak and Oefelein said.
Let's take the following sentence:
Set against a timeline where each character (except for |) represents a week, we get:
????????????????????X Nowak's statement
OCT |NOV |DEC |JAN |FEB
2006|2006|2006|2007|2007
Based solely upon Nowak's statement, and assuming that she was being accurate in what she said, all we can deduce is that at the time of the first week of February 2007, Nowak's relationship with Oefelein was closer than just a purely professional relationship but not as close as a romantic one. This is represented by the X in the graph above. While it can reasonably be conjectured that this also describes their relationship in the time prior to Nowak's arrest, we just can't be sure one way or the other, which is why there are question marks prior to the first week of February 2007. Based only on this statement, we can't know if Nowak had a romantic relationship with Oefelein or not, because the information just isn't there.
In revision 115845902, there is the following sentence:
Note the revision number. I'll get to that later.
Setting this sentence of this revision against the timeline above, we get:
????????????????????X Nowak's statement
++++XXXX Oefelein's statement
OCT |NOV |DEC |JAN |FEB |
2006|2006|2006|2007|2007
In the sentence of this revision, Oefelein says that he had a romantic relationship with Nowak (represented by +), but that he ended it in November 2006. He doesn't specify which week he terminated the relationship. Because of the ambiguity of Nowak's statement, it can be seen that what Oefelein said doesn't necessarily contradict what Nowak said.
Revision 116212441 of the page says that the end of the Oefelein-Nowak relationship took place in January 2007 rather than November 2006. The Orlando Sentinel article doesn't explicitly support the January 2007 date, but it does say the following:
Again, there is ambiguity in the accounts, but this still doesn't mean that either astronaut's account is inaccurate or deceptive, or that one astronaut's account must necessarily contradict the other's. Even if Oefelein had ended the relationship in January 2007, this would still fit in with Nowak's description of their relationship in February as more than a working one, less than a romantic one, if this is understood as a romantic relationship that has ended but whose emotional ties haven't completely faded away.
The inclusion of the word "however" introduces an editorial slant which forces the two sentences to be read as if they must contradict each other, along the lines of a "he said, she said" dispute, which goes beyond the limited information in the astronauts' words. Including the word "however" in this section is unwarranted, and furthermore, unfair to both astronauts. Keeping in mind the guidelines set forth by WP:BLP, it is far better to leave the word "however" out of the text, and let the readers interpret the statements as they see fit. -- Kyok o 13:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Kyoko. The OR and BLP sides of this are more than enough to leave out that word. Now, only to send things home, I never wanted to stray into this but take it from me, it's spot on what a girl might say, ok? The other person has ended the romantic relationship so to her in truth it's now "less than a romantic... more than a working." Which is why one won't find much independent support for the notion their statements are contradictory. Haha! So many bois about this wiki. Cheers! :) Gwen Gale 14:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Only for context, a rather sympathetic but pithy column about Nowak. Gwen Gale 19:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be proper for you to apologize for this slander. -- However whatever 17:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Do the math. It says they met in November, started dating shortly afterward, and the incident occured in February. Unless my math is wrong, that's approximately 3 months. -- However whatever 17:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I will hereby cease further contributions to this discussion which is going nowhere, as I see that you refuse to apologize for your obvious slander. I will take your refusal into account in all future interactions with you. -- However whatever 17:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes it is best to quote the source as in: According to the New York Times, "Smith dated Jones starting in June of 1999 and married her the next year."[cite goes here] rather than make assumptions that may not be true or for distinctions that can get lost as people edit each other's edits. 4.250.198.151 08:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Need to be incorporated into the article. Poor guy: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070525/ap_on_re_us/astronaut_arrested;_ylt=Ai2GAsiCmYTHqW.n4kZSD2ADW7oF Ikilled007 06:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Naw, it isn't "potentially libelous" unless it it's untrue. It's well-sourced. So, I put it back. Cmichael ( talk) 01:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News reports that Oefelein thinks, or at least implies, that this article contains inaccuracies:
Q. I was just looking at your Wikipedia page ... there's more on there about the Lisa Nowak stuff than your NASA career. Do you feel like that's kind of come to define you at this point?
A. No, I don't think so. Because that stuff is not necessarily accurate. So, you know, I don't think so. I'm not going to talk about any of that, but anything on the Wikipedia as you know, anybody can put on there. If people are going to use that as fact, they've got some problems.
All in all, it seems to me like the Nowak material is relatively brief, and reasonably well sourced. Does anybody know anything specific about Oefelein's complaint? If anything is actually broke, then we need to fix it. Cmichael ( talk) 01:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I know about Oefelein's complaint. He was never "fired" or "dismissed" (btw, "dismissed" is a legal term in the military. It means that he was punitively removed from his position following UCMJ action...that never happened.) He was reassigned to active duty no different than Susan Helms was. He is a combat veteran, who retired honorably from federal service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.238 ( talk) 17:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
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I rolled back edits by anon user User:75.15.182.233 because they were based, in part, on a reference to Oefelein's own web page. You can't use his self-published biography as a source. Cmichael ( talk) 14:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
False and defamatory statements continue to appear in this article. If Wikipedia cannot control false and defamatory publications in this article, then it is Wikipedia's duty to delete the article. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.15.182.233 (
talk)
19:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Your verifiable citations are false. William Oefelein was not "fired" or "terminated." These statements are libelous and defamatory. Also, active duty military assigned to the astronaut corps cannot retire from NASA or the astronaut corps. They retire from the military or get reassigned to active duty service. His status is "retired". Wikipedia is informed of these false and defamatory statements. If it cannot prevent editors from posting statements, which are intentionally, maliciously or negligently defamatory, it is Wikipedia's duty to delete the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.233 ( talk) 20:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
The word "fired" in this instance is a conclusion drawn from the context, not the technical fact of what happened. He was reassigned by the Navy out of the astronaut corps; that may not account for the political subtext, but it is technically correct. I think the infobox should have the technical information (its function, after all) and we can write about his "dismissal" in the body of the article, making it clear that describing it as a dismissal draws a conclusion that doesn't come directly from NASA or the Navy. Nathan T 18:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I have an email from NASA Public Information Office that states Oefelein was never "fired". Who the heck do I have to send this to make Wikipedia STOP PRINTING THIS CRAP? This is such an irresponsible organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.238 ( talk) 17:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Already taken it to the "sources". Corrected a few, but can't afford to correct them all, so we've hired a lawyer to deal with Wikipedia. Wikipedia won't consider Oefelein's own statement as a reliable source, so "discussion" seem futile at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.135.106 ( talk) 15:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the letter mentioned "good standing"' or suggested that his departure from the Astronaut Corps was unrelated to the scandal. Rather, I meant to suggest that that was the type of language that the IP would like to see. He or she obviously objects to the terms "fired" and "dismissed." And I would be agreeable to accommodating the IP by presenting Oefelein's POV (in contrast to the others) if a reliable source for it can be found. WP:V says that "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I just don't see that in zimbio.com. Cmichael ( talk) 20:00, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Gwen correctly points out that as a BLP, we should/can look to Oefelein's own statements. WP:BLP provides the following guidance "Living persons may write or publish material about themselves, such as through press releases. Such material may be used as a source only if: 1.it is not unduly self-serving; 2.it does not involve claims about third parties or unrelated events; 3.there is no reasonable doubt that the subject actually authored it; 4.the article is not based primarily on such sources." For #3, we would have to assume that Oefelein's lawyer is making a statement that Oefelein would make himself. However, I see problems with meeting tests #1 and #2. Oefelein is making a statement that by it's very nature is self-serving and he is making claims about third parties - NASA and USN, their intentions and their actions. Rillian ( talk) 20:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
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Under “Personal Life”, could it be added that “He married the former Michaella Davis in 1988. They had two children and divorced in 2005.”? (If you need sources, would https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Astronaut-in-middle-looked-acted-part-of-space-1813709.php and http://www.astronautix.com/o/oefelein.html do?). I understand and respect that another site was asked to delete the names and birthdates of the children, so I’m not asking for that. Minicarmen ( talk) 05:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)