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A Google search will confirm that he is "widely" regarded as the founder of sociolinguistics; see e.g.
[1] (under Nov 08, 2006);
[2] (bottom of page);
[3];
[4] (under 2.1);
[5] (in sidebar). But I take your point. How would you recommend rewriting it?
AJD13:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
"Influential reliable source X has described him as the founder of sociolinguistics.<ref>Reference to influential reliable source</ref>". —
Angr15:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Thing is, I'm not sure what counts as an "influential reliable source" on the question of whether Labov is the founder of sociolinguistics. In a case like this, it seems to me more telling that a wide variety of unrelated sources have given him that description that than any one particular "influential" source does. What kind of source would you recommend looking for?
AJD16:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Well, "influential" is debatable, but certainly a reliable source from someone who actually knows something about linguistics (i.e. not a newspaper reporter) and who is neither Labov himself nor one of his students. One example could be A Student's Dictionary of Language and Linguistics by the late R. L. Trask (a well known syntactician of Basque), where it is said that Labov is "an enormously original and influential figure who has created much of the methodology of the discipline [of sociolinguistics]". You could also look in books on the history of linguistics as well as sociolinguistics textbooks, but these tend to follow the principle of
show, don't tell in that they show his importance by constantly referring to him and discussing his findings rather than saying in so many words "if it weren't for him, sociolinguistics as we know it probably wouldn't exist" (even though they all know that's true). —
Angr19:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That's not a bad quote right there; could you put into the article with citation? I've also found something from The Handbook of Language Variation and Change that I can add.
AJD21:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I think you are misinterpreting the interview. The interviewer gives Labov two pronunciations to choose from. One of the pronunciations is given as [ləbɑv]. If the other one (given as [ləbov]) is supposed to be [ləˈboʊv], then the interviewer is asking Labov, who is usually pronounced [ləˈbʌv], whether he pronounces his last name [ləˈboʊv] or [ləˈbɑːv]. How likely is that?
Timeineurope09:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Who says Labov is "usually" pronounced /ləˈbʌv/? Indeed, that particular mispronunciation must be comparatively rare, if Matt Gordon didn't even give it as an option. In any event, /ləˈboʊv/ is the correct pronunciation.
AJD13:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Still, I agree it would have been less leading if the interviewer had simply asked, "How do you pronounce your last name?" For a long time, before I heard anyone pronounce it, I thought it was /ˈleɪˌbɑf/. —
Angr16:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
At 13:41, 23 October (UTC), AJD reverted me here at
William Labov with the edit summary "rv to correct pronunciation". 36 minutes later, Angr reverted me at
Lafayette, Colorado with the exact same edit summary "rv to correct pronunciation". I'm sure people can draw their own conclusions.
Timeineurope12:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, namely that when you start adding mispronunciations in one place, people look to see where else you've done it. They don't have to be the same people. —
Angr16:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)reply
William Labov himself pronounces his own name /ləˈboʊv/ but some of his colleagues and students say /ləˈbʌv/, so the latter must be considered an alternate pronunciation. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yes390 (
talk •
contribs)
20:39, 14 December 2019 (UTC)reply
The correct pronunciation of a name is invariably the one its bearer uses. An alternative pronunciation may be noteworthy if it's used by a sizeable population (cf.
Dick Cheney) or the person has been dead for so long that the language has changed, but this is not such a case.
Nardog (
talk)
06:39, 16 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Exactly: The name bearer says /ləˈboʊv/ but many others say /ləˈbʌv/. Is your point that the latter, although common, is actually a mispronunciation and should therefore be omitted? What is the point of giving the same pronunciation twice in different notations? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yes390 (
talk •
contribs)
04:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)reply
By a sizeable population I mean millions of people. I don't think that many people know who he is.
Oh, is
lə-BOHV what you meant by "your pronunciation"? That's a
respelling, which is allowed to accompany an English IPA as an aid (or compromise, depending on how you look at it) for those not familiar with the IPA (see
WP:PRON). See
Wikipedia,
Lepidoptera, and
Indonesia for examples. But, granted, given this is an article about a linguist, we may as well do away with it.
Nardog (
talk)
05:46, 17 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Although no further citation for the pronunciation of his name is necessary than the one given, it is confirmed by the audio interview at
[7], where the reporter consistently pronounced the name [ləˈboʊv]. —
Angr16:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth, I did my dissertation under him, and I and pretty much everyone else who personally knows him pronounces it [ləˈboʊv] or [ləˈbov] (depending on whether we have monophthongal /o/ or not).
DBowie (
talk)
01:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)reply
I am currently enrolled in one of his linguistics classes at the University of Pennsylvania, and on the first day of class he most certainly introduced himself as Bill [ləˈboʊv]. -
User:Robearsn20:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Note that this may be a little off topic. However, it is about one of Labov's works.
I was reading text from the ANAE(2006) that puzzled me. The text is as follows:
English short vowels cannot occur word-finally in stressed position, so there are no words of the phonetic form [bɪ, bɛ, ba, bo or bʊ].
I am a little confused why Labov et al. are referring to the vowel [o] as a short vowel. Typically when they use brackets, they are addressing the vowels in IPA notation. And in the IPA, [o] represents "roughly" the English long o. Can anybody help me with this? Thank you.
LakeKayak (
talk)
01:53, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Mr KEBAB: If the "o" were in slashes, then it would mean /ɒ/. However, this is in square brackets. When he puts symbols in square brackets, he typically is using the standard IPA notation.
LakeKayak (
talk)
03:53, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Well it must mean [ɒ] anyway, because to say that [o] (=[oʊ]) doesn't occur word-finally in stressed position is pure ignorance (see go, no, low). I wouldn't accuse Labov of being that stupid (by 'stupid' I mean that it's phonology 101 and he must know this) ;) Plus, [oʊ] is not considered a short vowel in English phonetics/phonology, unlike [ɒ].
Mr KEBAB (
talk)
10:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't consider Labov as being "stupid," either. Hence why I was in question. However, I think I now have an understanding of what he meant. And I thank you for your help.
LakeKayak (
talk)
13:06, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philadelphia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Philadelphia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhiladelphiaWikipedia:WikiProject PhiladelphiaTemplate:WikiProject PhiladelphiaPhiladelphia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Wikipedia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Pennsylvania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
University of Pennsylvania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of PennsylvaniaWikipedia:WikiProject University of PennsylvaniaTemplate:WikiProject University of PennsylvaniaUniversity of Pennsylvania articles
A Google search will confirm that he is "widely" regarded as the founder of sociolinguistics; see e.g.
[1] (under Nov 08, 2006);
[2] (bottom of page);
[3];
[4] (under 2.1);
[5] (in sidebar). But I take your point. How would you recommend rewriting it?
AJD13:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
"Influential reliable source X has described him as the founder of sociolinguistics.<ref>Reference to influential reliable source</ref>". —
Angr15:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Thing is, I'm not sure what counts as an "influential reliable source" on the question of whether Labov is the founder of sociolinguistics. In a case like this, it seems to me more telling that a wide variety of unrelated sources have given him that description that than any one particular "influential" source does. What kind of source would you recommend looking for?
AJD16:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Well, "influential" is debatable, but certainly a reliable source from someone who actually knows something about linguistics (i.e. not a newspaper reporter) and who is neither Labov himself nor one of his students. One example could be A Student's Dictionary of Language and Linguistics by the late R. L. Trask (a well known syntactician of Basque), where it is said that Labov is "an enormously original and influential figure who has created much of the methodology of the discipline [of sociolinguistics]". You could also look in books on the history of linguistics as well as sociolinguistics textbooks, but these tend to follow the principle of
show, don't tell in that they show his importance by constantly referring to him and discussing his findings rather than saying in so many words "if it weren't for him, sociolinguistics as we know it probably wouldn't exist" (even though they all know that's true). —
Angr19:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
That's not a bad quote right there; could you put into the article with citation? I've also found something from The Handbook of Language Variation and Change that I can add.
AJD21:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)reply
I think you are misinterpreting the interview. The interviewer gives Labov two pronunciations to choose from. One of the pronunciations is given as [ləbɑv]. If the other one (given as [ləbov]) is supposed to be [ləˈboʊv], then the interviewer is asking Labov, who is usually pronounced [ləˈbʌv], whether he pronounces his last name [ləˈboʊv] or [ləˈbɑːv]. How likely is that?
Timeineurope09:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Who says Labov is "usually" pronounced /ləˈbʌv/? Indeed, that particular mispronunciation must be comparatively rare, if Matt Gordon didn't even give it as an option. In any event, /ləˈboʊv/ is the correct pronunciation.
AJD13:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Still, I agree it would have been less leading if the interviewer had simply asked, "How do you pronounce your last name?" For a long time, before I heard anyone pronounce it, I thought it was /ˈleɪˌbɑf/. —
Angr16:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
At 13:41, 23 October (UTC), AJD reverted me here at
William Labov with the edit summary "rv to correct pronunciation". 36 minutes later, Angr reverted me at
Lafayette, Colorado with the exact same edit summary "rv to correct pronunciation". I'm sure people can draw their own conclusions.
Timeineurope12:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, namely that when you start adding mispronunciations in one place, people look to see where else you've done it. They don't have to be the same people. —
Angr16:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)reply
William Labov himself pronounces his own name /ləˈboʊv/ but some of his colleagues and students say /ləˈbʌv/, so the latter must be considered an alternate pronunciation. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yes390 (
talk •
contribs)
20:39, 14 December 2019 (UTC)reply
The correct pronunciation of a name is invariably the one its bearer uses. An alternative pronunciation may be noteworthy if it's used by a sizeable population (cf.
Dick Cheney) or the person has been dead for so long that the language has changed, but this is not such a case.
Nardog (
talk)
06:39, 16 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Exactly: The name bearer says /ləˈboʊv/ but many others say /ləˈbʌv/. Is your point that the latter, although common, is actually a mispronunciation and should therefore be omitted? What is the point of giving the same pronunciation twice in different notations? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yes390 (
talk •
contribs)
04:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)reply
By a sizeable population I mean millions of people. I don't think that many people know who he is.
Oh, is
lə-BOHV what you meant by "your pronunciation"? That's a
respelling, which is allowed to accompany an English IPA as an aid (or compromise, depending on how you look at it) for those not familiar with the IPA (see
WP:PRON). See
Wikipedia,
Lepidoptera, and
Indonesia for examples. But, granted, given this is an article about a linguist, we may as well do away with it.
Nardog (
talk)
05:46, 17 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Although no further citation for the pronunciation of his name is necessary than the one given, it is confirmed by the audio interview at
[7], where the reporter consistently pronounced the name [ləˈboʊv]. —
Angr16:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth, I did my dissertation under him, and I and pretty much everyone else who personally knows him pronounces it [ləˈboʊv] or [ləˈbov] (depending on whether we have monophthongal /o/ or not).
DBowie (
talk)
01:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)reply
I am currently enrolled in one of his linguistics classes at the University of Pennsylvania, and on the first day of class he most certainly introduced himself as Bill [ləˈboʊv]. -
User:Robearsn20:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)reply
Note that this may be a little off topic. However, it is about one of Labov's works.
I was reading text from the ANAE(2006) that puzzled me. The text is as follows:
English short vowels cannot occur word-finally in stressed position, so there are no words of the phonetic form [bɪ, bɛ, ba, bo or bʊ].
I am a little confused why Labov et al. are referring to the vowel [o] as a short vowel. Typically when they use brackets, they are addressing the vowels in IPA notation. And in the IPA, [o] represents "roughly" the English long o. Can anybody help me with this? Thank you.
LakeKayak (
talk)
01:53, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Mr KEBAB: If the "o" were in slashes, then it would mean /ɒ/. However, this is in square brackets. When he puts symbols in square brackets, he typically is using the standard IPA notation.
LakeKayak (
talk)
03:53, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Well it must mean [ɒ] anyway, because to say that [o] (=[oʊ]) doesn't occur word-finally in stressed position is pure ignorance (see go, no, low). I wouldn't accuse Labov of being that stupid (by 'stupid' I mean that it's phonology 101 and he must know this) ;) Plus, [oʊ] is not considered a short vowel in English phonetics/phonology, unlike [ɒ].
Mr KEBAB (
talk)
10:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't consider Labov as being "stupid," either. Hence why I was in question. However, I think I now have an understanding of what he meant. And I thank you for your help.
LakeKayak (
talk)
13:06, 15 January 2017 (UTC)reply