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William C. Welch redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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I added sources to the article!!!!!!!
re: SmooveK (11/21/05 - A little late replying but I just made an account so I apologize. This is the author of "Bleeding Was Only Half the Job." In my opinion, the inclusion of the information from the book is totally relevent to Messiah's profile. I do not mean for it to portray Messiah in a negative light; all I intend is for the other side of the story to be achknowledged - that Messiah has heat with other people besides Black I have re-edited the information with that information.
Also, why did you say that the information could go in the "References" section but not put anything there (in the References section)? - Thanks
To JB196, your text with regard to these people was previously barely tolerated because it was neutral and stuck to the facts. You have within the last few days changed the text in a rather obvious attempt to make POV accusations that were removed from this page a long time ago. If you want your text to remain, you have to use the previously acceptable version. You know this already so there will be no discussion about it any more. If the unacceptable version of these comments shows up, it will be removed. We are talking about a small difference in wording. If you can't accept that version, at least explain why. 168.127.0.51 17:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't see "the text [you] have put in the page and have listed above."What EXACT version of my text are you referring to?
If I take out the part about him not answering in his SMV shoot why the relationship with Myst ended, will that appease you? JB196 17:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Why was the information about EPIC taken down?
That makes the article inaccurate.
Messiah left XPW before it folded. The article says that he was there until it folded.
I'm sorry I ever added the info from AMW in the first place now, as important as it was. I admit the original thing I posted was worded poorly.
I think what's up their now is better, but still poor. Maybe someone can fix it.-- Unopeneddoor 21:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
All references have been removed. This turns out not to be a book but rather a collection of self-published material from an obsessed fan of the promotion. The author isn't objective and he has an agenda.
r/v'ed. The book has been officially endorsed by Shane Douglas, Ron Jeremy, Jerry Lynn, Chris Kanyon, Lizzy Borden, and others, and was written after extensive interviews with former-XPW talent who knew Billy Welch personally. If that doesn't make it credible, nothing does. Even if it was self-published material, it is still relevent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JB196 ( talk • contribs)
Me and Weregerbil worked this out on his talk page. One more thing to add in relation to what the anonymous IP person said: either there should be no sentence implicating Rob Black as a suspect because theere isn't any evidence, or the implication of him as a suspect should be included but with the explanation already there (which you had removed). JB196 15:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Rob Black was the focus of an episode of the TV show America's Most Wanted relating to the attack, therefore his name is relevant in regards to the attack.
Rob Black was mentioned as a possible suspect on America's Most Wanted & Inside Edition. It has never been proven that he wasn't behind his thumb severing.
"Since then there has been information released that has moved some of the speculation away from Black and indicated that Black is not the only person who Messiah had problems with in the past.
If you want this material in the page you are going to have to properly source and support it. Its totally unacceptable in all the ways I have outlined above. 168.127.0.51 19:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
To the person removing the details of the Assault on William Welch, please explain yourself. If you don't explain yourself, all your going to accomplish is locking the page against anonymous edits. 168.127.0.51 21:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The explaination offered is: "It is irrelevant to his Career and Accomplishments"
If you are suggesting its not appropriate for the section, please create another seperate section to deal with it. You cannot be suggesting that the assault is irrelivant to the page as a whole? 152.163.100.200 01:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok. One of you says it can't be in the page because its inappropriate for the section. The other has removed the section from the page. At least two of us agree that the material should be there. Can we get some discussion going to resolve this? 168.127.0.51 21:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Come on people, dont delete whole entire paragraphs from bios
I removed your changes. Please see the explanation. You can't just add to wikipedia information that could be violative of someones rep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.65.2 ( talk) 18:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the information that Mr Welch wants removed, per WP:BLP which states to "do no harm". This information is not relevant to his notability. One Night In Hackney 303 19:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Summary: Keep the information.
-- User:Krator ( t c) 20:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, the sources are no different.-- ClaudioCastag7 20:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I understand perfectly. If wrestling fansites are not reliable sources, then LOP is not a reliable source, regardless of where it cites its information from. If LOP is a gossip web site, it's certainly not a legitimate source to say what did or did not air on a non-wrestling program. You stated that better sources are available; please provide them. If one wrestling fan site is a valid source, then so is another wrestling fan site.
Comments of William Welch himself are much more reliable than what you term to be a gossip web site.-- ClaudioCastag7 21:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
As a followup to what Krator said above, in addition to his wrestling career making him notable, it is apparent from the article that the "assault" was also a big part of his career, and according to what Welch said in the interview linked to, his personal life was closely linked to the assault, so I think that the relevancy of his personal life is more apparent than it may appear at first glance.-- ClaudioCastag7 21:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, if it is a reliable source, then the information is reliable. Again, it can't go two different ways. I am open to it going either way, but one cannot go ONE way and the other the OTHER way.-- ClaudioCastag7 21:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Some points were raised above, which I will respond to.
“ | What is the origin of the information on the sources you provided? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney |
“ | What is the origin of the information on the New York Times? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney, edited by User:Krator |
“ | Pray tell, where do your fansites get their information from? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney |
“ | Pray tell, where does the New York Times get their information from? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney, edited by User:Krator |
-- User:Krator ( t c) 21:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
LOP is not different.-- ClaudioCastag7 22:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Per WP:V#SELF - Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP
Per WP:V#SELF - Material from self-published sources and sources of questionable reliability may be used in articles about themselves, so long as...it does not involve claims about third parties
Per WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy - In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives
Per WP:BLP#People who are relatively unknown - Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability
There are real people with real lives we're dealing with here. One Night In Hackney 303 06:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If a source is not reliable, then whether or not it attributes its source to a reliable party, what it says is NOT reliable, BECAUSE IT IS A "SOURCE" WHICH IS NOT RELIABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE, as you have pointed out about wrestling fansites above. LOP is a wrestling fan site.--
ClaudioCastag7 18:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, for frick's sake, the man got his thumb chopped off! Why is this not mentioned anywhere on the page? It's certainly worth a mention, and is NOT a hoax. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.187.128.89 (
talk) 20:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- "After leaving XPW, Welch, using his Messiah ring name and gimmick, made his debut in Combat Zone Wrestling (CZW) on August 31, 2002 at their first Tournament of Death, only thirty days after being assaulted in his home by two assailants." Actually he was wrestling for CZW at least on January 12, 2002 at Answering the Challenge. Not sure if that was the debut but he certainly made his debut before August 2002. Stunttis ( talk) 01:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
William C. Welch redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
I added sources to the article!!!!!!!
re: SmooveK (11/21/05 - A little late replying but I just made an account so I apologize. This is the author of "Bleeding Was Only Half the Job." In my opinion, the inclusion of the information from the book is totally relevent to Messiah's profile. I do not mean for it to portray Messiah in a negative light; all I intend is for the other side of the story to be achknowledged - that Messiah has heat with other people besides Black I have re-edited the information with that information.
Also, why did you say that the information could go in the "References" section but not put anything there (in the References section)? - Thanks
To JB196, your text with regard to these people was previously barely tolerated because it was neutral and stuck to the facts. You have within the last few days changed the text in a rather obvious attempt to make POV accusations that were removed from this page a long time ago. If you want your text to remain, you have to use the previously acceptable version. You know this already so there will be no discussion about it any more. If the unacceptable version of these comments shows up, it will be removed. We are talking about a small difference in wording. If you can't accept that version, at least explain why. 168.127.0.51 17:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't see "the text [you] have put in the page and have listed above."What EXACT version of my text are you referring to?
If I take out the part about him not answering in his SMV shoot why the relationship with Myst ended, will that appease you? JB196 17:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Why was the information about EPIC taken down?
That makes the article inaccurate.
Messiah left XPW before it folded. The article says that he was there until it folded.
I'm sorry I ever added the info from AMW in the first place now, as important as it was. I admit the original thing I posted was worded poorly.
I think what's up their now is better, but still poor. Maybe someone can fix it.-- Unopeneddoor 21:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
All references have been removed. This turns out not to be a book but rather a collection of self-published material from an obsessed fan of the promotion. The author isn't objective and he has an agenda.
r/v'ed. The book has been officially endorsed by Shane Douglas, Ron Jeremy, Jerry Lynn, Chris Kanyon, Lizzy Borden, and others, and was written after extensive interviews with former-XPW talent who knew Billy Welch personally. If that doesn't make it credible, nothing does. Even if it was self-published material, it is still relevent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JB196 ( talk • contribs)
Me and Weregerbil worked this out on his talk page. One more thing to add in relation to what the anonymous IP person said: either there should be no sentence implicating Rob Black as a suspect because theere isn't any evidence, or the implication of him as a suspect should be included but with the explanation already there (which you had removed). JB196 15:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Rob Black was the focus of an episode of the TV show America's Most Wanted relating to the attack, therefore his name is relevant in regards to the attack.
Rob Black was mentioned as a possible suspect on America's Most Wanted & Inside Edition. It has never been proven that he wasn't behind his thumb severing.
"Since then there has been information released that has moved some of the speculation away from Black and indicated that Black is not the only person who Messiah had problems with in the past.
If you want this material in the page you are going to have to properly source and support it. Its totally unacceptable in all the ways I have outlined above. 168.127.0.51 19:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
To the person removing the details of the Assault on William Welch, please explain yourself. If you don't explain yourself, all your going to accomplish is locking the page against anonymous edits. 168.127.0.51 21:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The explaination offered is: "It is irrelevant to his Career and Accomplishments"
If you are suggesting its not appropriate for the section, please create another seperate section to deal with it. You cannot be suggesting that the assault is irrelivant to the page as a whole? 152.163.100.200 01:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok. One of you says it can't be in the page because its inappropriate for the section. The other has removed the section from the page. At least two of us agree that the material should be there. Can we get some discussion going to resolve this? 168.127.0.51 21:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Come on people, dont delete whole entire paragraphs from bios
I removed your changes. Please see the explanation. You can't just add to wikipedia information that could be violative of someones rep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.65.2 ( talk) 18:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the information that Mr Welch wants removed, per WP:BLP which states to "do no harm". This information is not relevant to his notability. One Night In Hackney 303 19:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Summary: Keep the information.
-- User:Krator ( t c) 20:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, the sources are no different.-- ClaudioCastag7 20:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I understand perfectly. If wrestling fansites are not reliable sources, then LOP is not a reliable source, regardless of where it cites its information from. If LOP is a gossip web site, it's certainly not a legitimate source to say what did or did not air on a non-wrestling program. You stated that better sources are available; please provide them. If one wrestling fan site is a valid source, then so is another wrestling fan site.
Comments of William Welch himself are much more reliable than what you term to be a gossip web site.-- ClaudioCastag7 21:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
As a followup to what Krator said above, in addition to his wrestling career making him notable, it is apparent from the article that the "assault" was also a big part of his career, and according to what Welch said in the interview linked to, his personal life was closely linked to the assault, so I think that the relevancy of his personal life is more apparent than it may appear at first glance.-- ClaudioCastag7 21:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, if it is a reliable source, then the information is reliable. Again, it can't go two different ways. I am open to it going either way, but one cannot go ONE way and the other the OTHER way.-- ClaudioCastag7 21:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Some points were raised above, which I will respond to.
“ | What is the origin of the information on the sources you provided? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney |
“ | What is the origin of the information on the New York Times? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney, edited by User:Krator |
“ | Pray tell, where do your fansites get their information from? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney |
“ | Pray tell, where does the New York Times get their information from? | ” |
— User:One Night In Hackney, edited by User:Krator |
-- User:Krator ( t c) 21:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
LOP is not different.-- ClaudioCastag7 22:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Per WP:V#SELF - Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP
Per WP:V#SELF - Material from self-published sources and sources of questionable reliability may be used in articles about themselves, so long as...it does not involve claims about third parties
Per WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy - In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives
Per WP:BLP#People who are relatively unknown - Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability
There are real people with real lives we're dealing with here. One Night In Hackney 303 06:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If a source is not reliable, then whether or not it attributes its source to a reliable party, what it says is NOT reliable, BECAUSE IT IS A "SOURCE" WHICH IS NOT RELIABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE, as you have pointed out about wrestling fansites above. LOP is a wrestling fan site.--
ClaudioCastag7 18:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, for frick's sake, the man got his thumb chopped off! Why is this not mentioned anywhere on the page? It's certainly worth a mention, and is NOT a hoax. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.187.128.89 (
talk) 20:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- "After leaving XPW, Welch, using his Messiah ring name and gimmick, made his debut in Combat Zone Wrestling (CZW) on August 31, 2002 at their first Tournament of Death, only thirty days after being assaulted in his home by two assailants." Actually he was wrestling for CZW at least on January 12, 2002 at Answering the Challenge. Not sure if that was the debut but he certainly made his debut before August 2002. Stunttis ( talk) 01:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)