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White defensiveness article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Benrthorne.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 04:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
While the subject definitely warrants an article as it's come up in politics in contemporary times, it is controversial and should be framed as such. Adding criticism of the theory, for example, would make the article more neutral. Kirbanzo ( userpage - talk - contribs) 18:11, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I've added in a criticism section. Sdio7 ( talk) 23:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
88.70.160.201 ( talk) 07:38, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Who is Jesse Lile, and why should we care about his criticism? We readers need to know his area of expertise, at least — an explanation as to why his opinion is paricularly important. MeegsC ( talk) 13:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
The lead says DiAngelo coined the term in 2011, but its been around at least since 1996, e.g., this paper NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 19:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for peering behing the paywall. If the terms are "related" this implies they are not synonyms, so its unclear why "White Fragility" is given as an alternative name for the topic of this article? NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 12:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
The article quotes a ton of opinion-pieces criticizing DiAngelo, yet only quotes her a few times in passing - far more text is devoted to opinion-piecs criticizing her than to DiAngelo herself! I've removed the lowest-quality ones, but even for the higher-quality ones, they belong on White Fragility (book) or on her article, not here, since this article covers a lot more than just her. More generally it feels like editors who knew the concept was controversial have tried to prove it by padding a controversy section with opinion-pieces disagreeing with DiAngelo specifically; that's not the appropriate way to go about that sort of thing and is an inappropriate use of a WP:CSECTION. (An opinion writer in the Federalist disagreeing about a sociological concept about race tells us nothing on its own, say.) What we need are, ideally, sources covering its academic reception, or at least WP:SECONDARY non-opinion pieces discussing the concept and its flaws. Then, once we have those, this coverage should be worked into the appropriate article rather than quarantined into a criticism section. -- Aquillion ( talk) 00:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Are there seen to be ongoing neutrality issues on this page? I actually think it would benefit from some commentary around the contested nature of the type of thing that white defensiveness is... but apart from that it otherwise seems fairly reasonable. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 01:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
The section under white fragility was a WP:COATRACK of various criticisms aimed at Robin DiAngelo's book, that had nothing to do with the concept of white fragility. These "criticisms" of the book (well, the valid ones, coming from subject experts and reliable sources) belong on the book's article, not this page. 46.97.170.19 ( talk) 14:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Vaselineeeeeeee: The paragraphs I removed were not relvant to the section. They were criticisms of a book that has it's own wikipedia page. Please discuss before reverting. 46.97.170.19 ( talk) 11:08, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This article is in serious need of a balance and point of view review. As it’s currently written, It’s presented in a way that portrays the hypothesis as being of an undisputed factual nature. It doesn’t even offer any kind of Scholarly critique of the concept or even general criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:3b00:700:9c12:3345:17a6:dbc4 ( talk) 16:44, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
In this article, "White Fragility" was supposedly coined by her in the early 2010s. However, I have found evidence in an article written in the September 2005 Smithsonian article about the Riceville, Iowa 3rd grade experiment by renowned teacher Jane Elliot that proves otherwise. And I quote, pp. 86, 4th paragraph "Elliot replied "Why are we so worried about the fragile egos of white children who experience a couple of hours of made up racism one day when blacks experience real racism every day of their lives?"" Gizziiusa ( talk) 06:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)gizziiusa — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Hundreds of viewers wrote letters saying Elliott's work appalled them. "How dare you try this cruel experiment out on white children," one said. "Black children grow up accustomed to such behavior, but white children, there's no way they could possibly understand it. It's cruel to white children and will cause them great psychological damage."
I undid two revisions by Sankshine ( talk · contribs), an editor in the Wiki Ed course Understanding Diversity, including their rev. 1102794679 of 23:12, 6 August, for which Earwig reports 37.9% likelihood of WP:COPYVIO from https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/white-privilege. Earwig reports 0% as of rev 1102793888 of six minutes earlier by User:Luk3 @23:06. Possible copyvio/revdel required. Offending material was removed in this edit; users Doug Weller and Ian (Wiki Ed) were pinged in the revert edit summary. Mathglot ( talk) 10:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm not super familiar with this kind of stuff so I don't feel confident in making any changes myself, but it seems like the first three paragraphs in the subsection "White denial" seem out of order. It seems that way to me because the first paragraph ends with "Regarding white denial, the theologian Leah Gaskin Fitchue wrote in 2015:", but the paragraph following it has it's own citation and isn't indented like the third paragraph, which I believe may be the quote in question. I THINK, given what I see, that the fix would be swapping the second and third paragraphs, but as I said, I don't wanna break anything. 2600:100F:A100:4D86:C5FA:83AB:967F:E1BE ( talk) 08:37, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
White defensiveness article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Benrthorne.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 04:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
While the subject definitely warrants an article as it's come up in politics in contemporary times, it is controversial and should be framed as such. Adding criticism of the theory, for example, would make the article more neutral. Kirbanzo ( userpage - talk - contribs) 18:11, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I've added in a criticism section. Sdio7 ( talk) 23:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
88.70.160.201 ( talk) 07:38, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Who is Jesse Lile, and why should we care about his criticism? We readers need to know his area of expertise, at least — an explanation as to why his opinion is paricularly important. MeegsC ( talk) 13:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
The lead says DiAngelo coined the term in 2011, but its been around at least since 1996, e.g., this paper NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 19:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for peering behing the paywall. If the terms are "related" this implies they are not synonyms, so its unclear why "White Fragility" is given as an alternative name for the topic of this article? NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 12:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
The article quotes a ton of opinion-pieces criticizing DiAngelo, yet only quotes her a few times in passing - far more text is devoted to opinion-piecs criticizing her than to DiAngelo herself! I've removed the lowest-quality ones, but even for the higher-quality ones, they belong on White Fragility (book) or on her article, not here, since this article covers a lot more than just her. More generally it feels like editors who knew the concept was controversial have tried to prove it by padding a controversy section with opinion-pieces disagreeing with DiAngelo specifically; that's not the appropriate way to go about that sort of thing and is an inappropriate use of a WP:CSECTION. (An opinion writer in the Federalist disagreeing about a sociological concept about race tells us nothing on its own, say.) What we need are, ideally, sources covering its academic reception, or at least WP:SECONDARY non-opinion pieces discussing the concept and its flaws. Then, once we have those, this coverage should be worked into the appropriate article rather than quarantined into a criticism section. -- Aquillion ( talk) 00:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Are there seen to be ongoing neutrality issues on this page? I actually think it would benefit from some commentary around the contested nature of the type of thing that white defensiveness is... but apart from that it otherwise seems fairly reasonable. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 01:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
The section under white fragility was a WP:COATRACK of various criticisms aimed at Robin DiAngelo's book, that had nothing to do with the concept of white fragility. These "criticisms" of the book (well, the valid ones, coming from subject experts and reliable sources) belong on the book's article, not this page. 46.97.170.19 ( talk) 14:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Vaselineeeeeeee: The paragraphs I removed were not relvant to the section. They were criticisms of a book that has it's own wikipedia page. Please discuss before reverting. 46.97.170.19 ( talk) 11:08, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This article is in serious need of a balance and point of view review. As it’s currently written, It’s presented in a way that portrays the hypothesis as being of an undisputed factual nature. It doesn’t even offer any kind of Scholarly critique of the concept or even general criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:3b00:700:9c12:3345:17a6:dbc4 ( talk) 16:44, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
In this article, "White Fragility" was supposedly coined by her in the early 2010s. However, I have found evidence in an article written in the September 2005 Smithsonian article about the Riceville, Iowa 3rd grade experiment by renowned teacher Jane Elliot that proves otherwise. And I quote, pp. 86, 4th paragraph "Elliot replied "Why are we so worried about the fragile egos of white children who experience a couple of hours of made up racism one day when blacks experience real racism every day of their lives?"" Gizziiusa ( talk) 06:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)gizziiusa — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Hundreds of viewers wrote letters saying Elliott's work appalled them. "How dare you try this cruel experiment out on white children," one said. "Black children grow up accustomed to such behavior, but white children, there's no way they could possibly understand it. It's cruel to white children and will cause them great psychological damage."
I undid two revisions by Sankshine ( talk · contribs), an editor in the Wiki Ed course Understanding Diversity, including their rev. 1102794679 of 23:12, 6 August, for which Earwig reports 37.9% likelihood of WP:COPYVIO from https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/white-privilege. Earwig reports 0% as of rev 1102793888 of six minutes earlier by User:Luk3 @23:06. Possible copyvio/revdel required. Offending material was removed in this edit; users Doug Weller and Ian (Wiki Ed) were pinged in the revert edit summary. Mathglot ( talk) 10:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm not super familiar with this kind of stuff so I don't feel confident in making any changes myself, but it seems like the first three paragraphs in the subsection "White denial" seem out of order. It seems that way to me because the first paragraph ends with "Regarding white denial, the theologian Leah Gaskin Fitchue wrote in 2015:", but the paragraph following it has it's own citation and isn't indented like the third paragraph, which I believe may be the quote in question. I THINK, given what I see, that the fix would be swapping the second and third paragraphs, but as I said, I don't wanna break anything. 2600:100F:A100:4D86:C5FA:83AB:967F:E1BE ( talk) 08:37, 4 July 2023 (UTC)