This article needs a thourough fact and reference check. There are several citation styles that can be used, I prefer the footnotes method, but if there is a consensus for harvard referencing then I am happy to do that as well. There is much here that needs a proper reference. We cannot assume that things are well known facts and therefore do not need to be referenced. If wikipedia is to gain any sort of credibility, the information contained in it needs to be verified, or it will never be anything more than a collection of the opinions of it's editors, and will remain completelly useless as a reference source in it's own right. Alun 05:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are some initial sources for much of this but there are almost certain to be better ones; and I think at least a couple of sentences need alteration. Since what I'm suggesting change the overall result quite strongly, I put them here for consideration before adding them to the article. Essentially, I have a lot of quotes agreeing that the Celtic invasion stuff is old hat, and that it was more a process of transfer of culture. Going by the tone of discussion on the talk page up to now, I think we (okay, me, but no-one else fixed it) didn't make that plain enough in the original article.
So that said, are people happy for these references to go in? I have absolutely no qualifications in this topic at all, be warned. On the other hand, if you must chastise me for that, please do include what I should have read instead. Note that I will format them a bit better later: I got fed up of typing in the same ISBNs multiple times, when we only need it for the first mention.
So, there you are. It doesn't look much now, but it took a while. I know there's a few missing, but would people be happy with these as sources? I don't know how well-regarded all of these people are in their fields (although Welsh history is the field of John Davies and Gwyn Alf Williams, and Nigel Jenkins is a writer who is editing an encyclopedia about Wales; but Norman Davies' period is apparently more this last century, there seem to be multiple David Rosses, and there are bound to be much more detailed studies about the Gododdin available), or whether I have missed out some leading authority. Also, I am inclined to put these entire quotes into the footnotes, just for context. Any objections?
Oh. Someone needs to archive the page. Archiving the "what is ethnicity/race/whatever" debate would shrink it considerably. (If it's not finished, I wonder if it could continue on another page? Or user talk? It's a bit more general than "what are Welsh people", so I'm not sure it needs to be on this page in particular.)
Telsa (talk) 08:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Take your time and read well.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Cavalli.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Y-MAP.GIF
World Haplogroups Maps (As recent as 2005)
Origins of haplogroup R1b. (Very interesting too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r1b_ydna_in_europe.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Maps.htm
HCC
Also, this is largely based on Y-chrom. studies only, a small section of DNA and of lineage, and it is important to bear in mind that population genetic studies are stil very much early in devlopment and aren not considered fully conclusive in any way. Epf 22:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
See the English talk page for this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:English_people HCC
I agree with you. I am so interested in knowing about all this like anyone else. I encourage you to do your own research. You can follow this discussion in the English people talk page. I would like to hear about alternative theories too that account for these findings. HCC.
Should the Drudic religion be included in this section of the article as it was a religion that was practiced widely in Wales.-- Rhydd Meddwl 16:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
On the English people page, the user Lord Loxley keeps removing the Welsh from related ethnic groups (among many other biased and POV changes), on the grounds that the Welsh have actually been English since 1536. TharkunColl 17:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Eryri has changed the History section to state that the Celts of England were supplanted by Anglo-Saxons. If anything this is based on a study released in 2002 which has consequently been shown to be wrong or misleading by several other studies since. The continued reference to this story can only be for one thing: to try to cement a genetic/ethnic difference between the English and Welsh to further the cause of either English or Welsh nationalism. I do not believe that the Wikipedia forum should promote such agendas. If something is known to be wrong or false, then it should be shown to be such. Wikipedia must be impartial. Enzedbrit 23:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Nobody is ever satisfied with one way or the other; they war perpetually over the "truth". Perhaps this part should be omitted, to avoid it always being changed. Lord Loxley 08:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone deny this at all? "Migration from Wales to the rest of Britain has been occurring throughout its history. Particularly during the industrial revolution hundreds of thousands of Welsh people migrated internally to the big cities of England and Scotland or to work in the coal mines of the north of England. As a result, much of the British population today have ancestory from Wales." Why would they?! What about this is false or POV? It is because of this migration that there are Welsh societies around Britain; my Welsh-first language grandfather grew up on the Durham coast where, his aunt told me before her death, whole streets could be walked down with Welsh coming from every door. Enzedbrit 02:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the pictures of 4 representatives of Welsh people be changed? The big problem is that I don't know any of them. The second problem is that it looks very disorganized, it should be one image not unlike the scottish and the german. Now as to who should be the representatives, I am not sure... I'm not welsh. Maybe Tom Jones and Bertrand Russell for starters. -- mahlered 23:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you seriously claiming not to know who David Lloyd George is?
Sadly, I've met a good number of people who really don't know who Lloyd George was. But their lamentable ignorance is no reason to change the page. Still, I support having a mix of old and new faces. garik 17:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest including Dylan Thomas. A great poet worthy of popular acknowledgement. If you're feeling adventurist, I'd say John Cale as well. But why no women? Aren't there any famous Welsh women? Black-Velvet 10:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
We could do with some refs for this, it seems strange but it is not so easy to find this online. I did find a bibliography giving a list of references for articles about emmigration from Wales, one of which is C G Pooley, Welsh Migration to England in the Mid-Nineteenth Century, Journal of Historical Geography, vol. 9 (1983). [1] Looks like a University of Swansea website, unfortunatelt it's a 1983 work and so not available online and I have no idea what the paper might contain with regards to a supporting reference. Alun 17:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
1) There was massive immigration into Wales at this time, this is what the source claims, it also states that English people represented the majority of people to migrate to Wales. You are quite right that the source does not claim massive English immigration, it 's good that these cites are checked by people as everyone can misinterpret sources. Maybe we should state that there was massive immigration to Wales at this time, a large proportion of which was by English people, what do you think? Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
2) Also, English migration to Wales is not disputed and does not need to be repeated again Your edit appears to contradict the cited source for English immigration into Wales, its location and phrasing strongly implies that the increase in population in Wales is exclusively due to Welsh indigenous population increase. Maybe we shoud think about rephrasing it so it doesn't seem to contradict the recorded immigration. Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
3) From what Ive read in this link here, the 80 and 20 figure was taken from ONE sample in England on Y-chromosomes, the MtDNA results show different numbers.) You do not appear to have read very widely arround the subject. Indeed the paper cited Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans states in the first sentence of the abstract We inferred past admixture processes in the European population from genetic diversity at eight loci, including autosomal, mitochondrial and Y-linked polymorphisms. This work used a very large number of samples. There's also this from Science, which discusses both mtDNA and Y-chromosome work Europeans Trace Ancestry to Paleolithic People, here's a paper that is probably one source for the Science article Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool, and here's another that also gives similar results The Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe, and suggests a paleolithic origin for western Europeans (rather than a central European Celtic migration (or more accurately a migration of people forming the Hallstatt and La Tène cultural groups)). The 80% figure if for the paleolithic influence on British and European populations. I do not think this figure is disputed or indeed that there is any work that contradicts it (if there is some molecular biology work that has produced a substantially different result then it should be included). What would the alternative be? Where do you suppose the European population comes from? There is a significant input from Near East populations in eastern Europe, thought to be due to the neolithic expansion, but this seems not to have had such a large effect in western Europe, there is certainly a cline that is quite evident (with about 80% neolithic in the Balkans through to 80% paleolithic in western Europe, the cline runs more like south-east - north-west). The paper cited seems to show that the relative paleolithic:neolithic contributions between continental Europe and Great Britain are quite different, with about an 80% paleolithic to 20% neolithic input in Great Britain, but nearer 60% (or less) paleolithic on continental Europe, even those parts quite close to Great Britain, there are some quite nice diagrams in the paper illustrating this. However previous Y chromosome and mtDNA work has suggested an 80% paleolithic input for the whole of western Europe. I have included this paper for verification because it is relatively recent, and because, unlike other papers it includes work done on autosomal chromosomes, these lack the gender bias of Y chromosome and mtDNA studies as they are inherited from both parents. They also have the advantage of producing twice as much information from any given individual (per locus), as each sample of DNA is diploid (two chromosomes, so two loci), individuals may have different maternal and paternal alleles (ie be heterozygous) for the respective loci on the maternally and paternally derived chromosomes. Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
4) the Iron Age tribes werent compeltely descended from the Paleolithic and there is no source here which backs the claim, the sources here claim that European populations are mainly descended from the paleolithic inhabitants of Europe. The article didn't claim that the Iron Age tribes are completelly descended from the paleolithic population of Europe, it stated which themselves had a paleolithic indigenous ancestry within the British and Irish Isles, this is true, their ancestry was paleolithic, nowhere does it claim that their ancestry was exclusively paleolithic. It is true that by the Iron Age there had certainly been a Neolithic input into the European population (amounting to about 20% in Great Britain). Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
this information can not distinguish between very ancient (Paleo., Neo., etc.) and more recent migrations of peoples in the sense that Bronze Age
Isn't this exactly what the article states? Moreover, some genetic research seems to support the idea that the Y-chromosomes of people living in the British and Irish Isles are mainly descended from the indigenous European paleolithic population (80%), with about a 20% neolithic input. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Have you read the paper cited in the article Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans? mtDNA and Y chromosome DNA is used there and gives an 80-20 split, and the article Europeans Trace Ancestry to Paleolithic People states that the Y chromosome data for an 80-20 split are supported by mtDNA work. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No one claims that they do, but it is a fallacy to claim that any migrations into Great Britain at this time are a certainly. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Previously you claimed a single study. There have been more than two studies, three are listed above and show similar results. Of course the more data that are collected the better the picture will be. But the curent work does produce citable material that can be used. We do need to make sure that what we are verifying is actually what the paper states, it would be very bad to try to infer that a paper claims something that it does not. I think that the current wording of the article is more accurate than it was previously, and that is thanks to your observations. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem. You didn't make an intentional personal attack. I was originally very offended, some time later I began to suspect that you had not intended to imply that I was a supporter of the British National Party. It was a misunderstanding and I'm sorry for reacting so strongly to it, I should have realised you didn't intend to be offensive. Alun 11:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You appear not to understand what a POV is, if a reliable source states a POV, then it is perfectly acceptable to include that POV in an article as long as it is cited. What is not acceptable is to include only one POV when several exist, we should include the majority and all significant minority POVs, excluding only POVs held by tiny minorities, this is how neutrality is achieved. Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to remove this section from the infobox. It's remained unverified for a long time, and these sections seem to be almost impossible to verify. I'm not convinced of the merits of this section, it is always a question of opinion, and then many editors want to make it a question of race or history rather than how modern Welsh people identify. There's also some info in the text of the article that is more enlightening about Welsh people seeing themselves as modern Celts, I think this provides better info. Would anyone object to removal of the section? Alun 05:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I would object. How would you know what most Welsh people identify with? I also know many Welsh people who see themselves as a seperate group, that is historically, linguistically, and ethnically related to other celtic peoples. But your view like my own is subjective and therefore cannot be used in this article. I believe that what is written on this page should be 100% fact, which is that Welsh people are an ethnic group, that are closely affiliated with other Celtic peoples. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alexpayne (
talk •
contribs)
One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers. The goal of Wikipedia is to become a complete and reliable encyclopedia. Editors should cite reliable sources so that their edits may be verified by readers and other editors. "Verifiability" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is thus verifiability, not truth. From verifiability policy. Alun 07:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't you feel you are being hypocritical here, on one hand you say 'what I believe is irrelevant' but on the other hand, you seek to remove all of the ethnic group boxes as you feel that they are wrong, as the current ethnic populations of countries cannot be defined by that population's ancestors and ethnicity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexpayne ( talk • contribs)
The claim has also been made that Indo-European languages may have been introduced to the British and Irish Isles as early as the early neolithic (or even earlier), with Goidelic and Brythonic languages possibly developing indigenously. Moreover, some genetic research seems to support the idea that the Y-chromosomes of people Alun 09:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I would object. How would you know what most Welsh people identify with? I also know many Welsh people who see themselves as a seperate group, that is historically, linguistically, and ethnically related to other celtic peoples. But your view like my own is subjective and therefore cannot be used in this article. I believe that what is written on this page should be 100% fact, which is that Welsh people are an ethnic group, that are closely affiliated with other Celtic peoples.
For about 5 years now DNA testing performed by hundreds of organizations has found again and again that the Welsh are genetically very similar to the Basques of northern Spain and south western France " Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons." BBC. "The Welsh and Irish Celts have been found to be the genetic blood-brothers of Basques, scientists have revealed.
The gene patterns of the three races passed down through the male line are all "strikingly similar", researchers concluded.
Link BBC Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions. " BBC
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Cavalli.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1b
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
As for the Welsh language, there is strong linguistic evidence that Welsh, Cornish and Cumbric are closely related to the Hamitic languages of North Africa and that the North African Berbers and most of the pre-celtic tribes of Britain shared a common ancestor that probably came from the Iberian peninsula or southern France. The first languages spoken in the British Isles by homo sapiens were probably not indo-european but rather something scholars would classify as hamitc.
http://www.britam.org/language.html
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Globe01 ( talk • contribs)
Yes, I would object. How would you know what most Welsh people identify with? I also know many Welsh people who see themselves as a seperate group, that is historically, linguistically, and ethnically related to other celtic peoples. But your view like my own is subjective and therefore cannot be used in this article. I believe that what is written on this page should be 100% fact, which is that Welsh people are an ethnic group, that are closely affiliated with other Celtic peoples.
I changed the wording of the sentence because the wording made it sound as if the genetic research the link was referring to was fully conclusive, reliable and repeatedy tested, which it isnt (as is population genetics as whole). Few studies have been carried out, each with controversial "conclusions" on the subject matter. In any case, the findings in this link do not add any more or less weight to the cultural diffusionist theory of some academics (the cultural diffuionist theory itself notably under increased crticism of late). I explained this in an earlier discourse above which points out why this test (largely based on MtDNA and Y-chrom., with some limited autosomal testing*) does not help differ between older paleolithic and neolithic age migrations and later bronze age, iron age, etc. migrations. Epf 05:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC) (*I say "limited" because its very controversial how autosomal testing is currently carried out in these studies since the autosomal markers are not as identifiable in aiding genetic genealogy as Y Chrom. or MtDNA markers)
In addition to the many studies that have been previously done pointing in the same direction, like the following one published by Oxford University Press, in which surprising genetic similarities can be seen between Britons and Spaniards (Spain is IberiaS) , in a genetic piece of research that takes into account up to 8 genetic loci, including mitocondrial, autosomal and Y-Chromosome DNA. See:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1361/T03
Now we have another Oxford study whose reference has been just published two days ago in which the origins of most Britons seem to be getting clearer and clearer and astonishingly very different from what it was previously thought (really, who would have thought that they come from the Spanish!.
It is also interesting in relation to the similarities between the Celtic areas of Britain and England.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1621766.ece
I cannot open the entire article from here, but it continues like this:
A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.
The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.
People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."
Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.
Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.
The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.
These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles. "Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.
It seems that here we have very interesting new information for the article.
Veritas et Severitas 02:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The first link you provide is actually cited in the Welsh people article. The second one appears to be little more than publicity for Sykes's book and there appears to be no new research done. See the discussion here
Talk:Anglo-Saxons#Major_new_genetic_study_2006_Oxford.
Alun
09:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
More information about Skyes research here. http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1393742006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Globe01 ( talk • contribs)
As regards the roll back by me:
More info
national genographic data on british isles to support the r1b evidence.
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
This discussion page is currently 56kb long and almost impossible to edit sensibly. And it is all about genetics and how to interpret genetic studies. Is that all there is to people? All that seems to happen on this discussion page is two or three people discussing studies (or press releases and/or press articles about said studies). At length. And no-one seems to be getting any near consensus. There is another 74kb of archive, over half of which is the same stuff. The history piece of the article is full of "citeneeded" on comments from history books and full of links to genetic studies. I regret ever adding the comment that there are people in Wales who assert a link with previous Celtic ancestors. My intended point at the time was not whether such a link exists, but that there is something of a self-image of Celts, from Celtica (attraction near Machynlleth now defunct) to Celtic Warriors (rugby team now.. urr.. defunct. Um). I realise that this is tricky stuff to describe with a neutral point of view, but tons has been written on self-image and self-identity and there was plenty of scope for expansion there. And now even that has now been turned into stuff about what that might mean genetically: "The consensus in Wales today is that they regard themselves as Celtic, claiming a heritage back to the Iron Age tribes, which themselves, based on modern genetic analysis, would appear to have had a predominantly paleolithic and neolithic indigenous ancestry".
You know, if I went down to the pub and asked "where do we come from?" (doubtless to be followed by "I mean, really, when you get down to it" and "what's it all about, hmm?"), I really doubt that most people would say "well, although the common shorthand is Celtic, in fact there is a traceable line back to the Iron Age, which itself can be shown to be derived from a predominantly stone age indigenous ancestry". I strongly query that the latest press releases on genetic research are the stuff of national identity. Except when the Western Mail has a slow news day.
But every time I check my watchlist, people (mostly the same few) are editing and re-editing the article and the discussion, changing stuff in their old posts (which makes it really difficult to follow, btw), disputing interpretations of data, and creating a 56kb (57 now, I expect, sorry!) page. And the genetics stuff is all over other "some adjective People" pages too. Not that I care too much about that, because I don't read them, but can't you settle on one location to hash it all out in? If it must be on this article, how about a subpage of the discussion?
Sorry to be so plaintive. But I just lose all heart to edit the rest of this article when there is a constant low-grade set of reversions along the lines of some/many, claimed/proven, tis/tisn't on one single aspect. Reading the history of the article in 250-edit chunks is depressing, because "tis/tisn't" sums up a lot of it.
Telsa (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
yeah thats a good idea alun, there might aswell be seperate articles on the genetics of a nations population for all countries with the amount of obsession people have with discussing genetics in counrties peoples discussion pages
globe01
Note the term "Welsh" is generally not always a good word to name our people, because some of us "Welsh" people in Wales object to the term in times, was used to offend and insult others in Great Britain (like "to Welsh them up" or "Welshing them") had violent meanings to promote ethnic and regional tensions against the "Welsh". Many of us preferably self-named ourselves Cymry, Cimries or Camries from an earlier source in our language (consult the Wikipedia article on Welsh people). I'm not suggesting do away with the term, but in a political correct world we live in (Wikipedia has focused on what may accidentally offend or disparage groups of people), the terminology of "Welsh" send horrifying mental images of some historic level of prejudice and discrimination against us Cymries for over hundreds of years. The major reason why many Cymries left Wales in the 18th and 19th centuries to North America, Australia and South Africa (even into Northern France, where thousands of older local residents has family in Wales) was to preserve our language and culture. The issue was when the culture was endangered by an approaching British conformity, anything "Welsh" was treated an unfavourable act and legal penalties were inflicted by English authorities for anyone who did "Welsh" cultural behaviours. I knew in the mid 1800s, Wales school houses punished students for openly speaking the language around instructors or teachers, and were rigourously disciplined for doing so. The children set at the corner or by the chalkboard had wore an embarrassing sign "Welsh Not" for English speaking children to observe how "those bad unpatriotic Welsh kids" are having a different culture. The Argentine-Welsh community struggles to preserve their cultural integrity in the year 2006, but the anti-British and nationalist mood during the Falkland Islands war (1982) made several thousand of people from the region emigrate to Canada and/or Chile. I never heard of the Argentine people adopted the term for reasons as a pejorative, but be in mind in part of ethnic sensitivity on the usage of "Welsh". 63.3.14.1 14:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Welsh_settlement_in_Argentina"
I personally believe it shouldn't be included at all in the entire article, especially when there's no reference given. 81.111.118.10 05:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This article needs a thourough fact and reference check. There are several citation styles that can be used, I prefer the footnotes method, but if there is a consensus for harvard referencing then I am happy to do that as well. There is much here that needs a proper reference. We cannot assume that things are well known facts and therefore do not need to be referenced. If wikipedia is to gain any sort of credibility, the information contained in it needs to be verified, or it will never be anything more than a collection of the opinions of it's editors, and will remain completelly useless as a reference source in it's own right. Alun 05:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are some initial sources for much of this but there are almost certain to be better ones; and I think at least a couple of sentences need alteration. Since what I'm suggesting change the overall result quite strongly, I put them here for consideration before adding them to the article. Essentially, I have a lot of quotes agreeing that the Celtic invasion stuff is old hat, and that it was more a process of transfer of culture. Going by the tone of discussion on the talk page up to now, I think we (okay, me, but no-one else fixed it) didn't make that plain enough in the original article.
So that said, are people happy for these references to go in? I have absolutely no qualifications in this topic at all, be warned. On the other hand, if you must chastise me for that, please do include what I should have read instead. Note that I will format them a bit better later: I got fed up of typing in the same ISBNs multiple times, when we only need it for the first mention.
So, there you are. It doesn't look much now, but it took a while. I know there's a few missing, but would people be happy with these as sources? I don't know how well-regarded all of these people are in their fields (although Welsh history is the field of John Davies and Gwyn Alf Williams, and Nigel Jenkins is a writer who is editing an encyclopedia about Wales; but Norman Davies' period is apparently more this last century, there seem to be multiple David Rosses, and there are bound to be much more detailed studies about the Gododdin available), or whether I have missed out some leading authority. Also, I am inclined to put these entire quotes into the footnotes, just for context. Any objections?
Oh. Someone needs to archive the page. Archiving the "what is ethnicity/race/whatever" debate would shrink it considerably. (If it's not finished, I wonder if it could continue on another page? Or user talk? It's a bit more general than "what are Welsh people", so I'm not sure it needs to be on this page in particular.)
Telsa (talk) 08:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Take your time and read well.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Cavalli.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Y-MAP.GIF
World Haplogroups Maps (As recent as 2005)
Origins of haplogroup R1b. (Very interesting too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r1b_ydna_in_europe.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Maps.htm
HCC
Also, this is largely based on Y-chrom. studies only, a small section of DNA and of lineage, and it is important to bear in mind that population genetic studies are stil very much early in devlopment and aren not considered fully conclusive in any way. Epf 22:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
See the English talk page for this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:English_people HCC
I agree with you. I am so interested in knowing about all this like anyone else. I encourage you to do your own research. You can follow this discussion in the English people talk page. I would like to hear about alternative theories too that account for these findings. HCC.
Should the Drudic religion be included in this section of the article as it was a religion that was practiced widely in Wales.-- Rhydd Meddwl 16:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
On the English people page, the user Lord Loxley keeps removing the Welsh from related ethnic groups (among many other biased and POV changes), on the grounds that the Welsh have actually been English since 1536. TharkunColl 17:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Eryri has changed the History section to state that the Celts of England were supplanted by Anglo-Saxons. If anything this is based on a study released in 2002 which has consequently been shown to be wrong or misleading by several other studies since. The continued reference to this story can only be for one thing: to try to cement a genetic/ethnic difference between the English and Welsh to further the cause of either English or Welsh nationalism. I do not believe that the Wikipedia forum should promote such agendas. If something is known to be wrong or false, then it should be shown to be such. Wikipedia must be impartial. Enzedbrit 23:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Nobody is ever satisfied with one way or the other; they war perpetually over the "truth". Perhaps this part should be omitted, to avoid it always being changed. Lord Loxley 08:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone deny this at all? "Migration from Wales to the rest of Britain has been occurring throughout its history. Particularly during the industrial revolution hundreds of thousands of Welsh people migrated internally to the big cities of England and Scotland or to work in the coal mines of the north of England. As a result, much of the British population today have ancestory from Wales." Why would they?! What about this is false or POV? It is because of this migration that there are Welsh societies around Britain; my Welsh-first language grandfather grew up on the Durham coast where, his aunt told me before her death, whole streets could be walked down with Welsh coming from every door. Enzedbrit 02:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the pictures of 4 representatives of Welsh people be changed? The big problem is that I don't know any of them. The second problem is that it looks very disorganized, it should be one image not unlike the scottish and the german. Now as to who should be the representatives, I am not sure... I'm not welsh. Maybe Tom Jones and Bertrand Russell for starters. -- mahlered 23:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you seriously claiming not to know who David Lloyd George is?
Sadly, I've met a good number of people who really don't know who Lloyd George was. But their lamentable ignorance is no reason to change the page. Still, I support having a mix of old and new faces. garik 17:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest including Dylan Thomas. A great poet worthy of popular acknowledgement. If you're feeling adventurist, I'd say John Cale as well. But why no women? Aren't there any famous Welsh women? Black-Velvet 10:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
We could do with some refs for this, it seems strange but it is not so easy to find this online. I did find a bibliography giving a list of references for articles about emmigration from Wales, one of which is C G Pooley, Welsh Migration to England in the Mid-Nineteenth Century, Journal of Historical Geography, vol. 9 (1983). [1] Looks like a University of Swansea website, unfortunatelt it's a 1983 work and so not available online and I have no idea what the paper might contain with regards to a supporting reference. Alun 17:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
1) There was massive immigration into Wales at this time, this is what the source claims, it also states that English people represented the majority of people to migrate to Wales. You are quite right that the source does not claim massive English immigration, it 's good that these cites are checked by people as everyone can misinterpret sources. Maybe we should state that there was massive immigration to Wales at this time, a large proportion of which was by English people, what do you think? Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
2) Also, English migration to Wales is not disputed and does not need to be repeated again Your edit appears to contradict the cited source for English immigration into Wales, its location and phrasing strongly implies that the increase in population in Wales is exclusively due to Welsh indigenous population increase. Maybe we shoud think about rephrasing it so it doesn't seem to contradict the recorded immigration. Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
3) From what Ive read in this link here, the 80 and 20 figure was taken from ONE sample in England on Y-chromosomes, the MtDNA results show different numbers.) You do not appear to have read very widely arround the subject. Indeed the paper cited Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans states in the first sentence of the abstract We inferred past admixture processes in the European population from genetic diversity at eight loci, including autosomal, mitochondrial and Y-linked polymorphisms. This work used a very large number of samples. There's also this from Science, which discusses both mtDNA and Y-chromosome work Europeans Trace Ancestry to Paleolithic People, here's a paper that is probably one source for the Science article Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool, and here's another that also gives similar results The Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe, and suggests a paleolithic origin for western Europeans (rather than a central European Celtic migration (or more accurately a migration of people forming the Hallstatt and La Tène cultural groups)). The 80% figure if for the paleolithic influence on British and European populations. I do not think this figure is disputed or indeed that there is any work that contradicts it (if there is some molecular biology work that has produced a substantially different result then it should be included). What would the alternative be? Where do you suppose the European population comes from? There is a significant input from Near East populations in eastern Europe, thought to be due to the neolithic expansion, but this seems not to have had such a large effect in western Europe, there is certainly a cline that is quite evident (with about 80% neolithic in the Balkans through to 80% paleolithic in western Europe, the cline runs more like south-east - north-west). The paper cited seems to show that the relative paleolithic:neolithic contributions between continental Europe and Great Britain are quite different, with about an 80% paleolithic to 20% neolithic input in Great Britain, but nearer 60% (or less) paleolithic on continental Europe, even those parts quite close to Great Britain, there are some quite nice diagrams in the paper illustrating this. However previous Y chromosome and mtDNA work has suggested an 80% paleolithic input for the whole of western Europe. I have included this paper for verification because it is relatively recent, and because, unlike other papers it includes work done on autosomal chromosomes, these lack the gender bias of Y chromosome and mtDNA studies as they are inherited from both parents. They also have the advantage of producing twice as much information from any given individual (per locus), as each sample of DNA is diploid (two chromosomes, so two loci), individuals may have different maternal and paternal alleles (ie be heterozygous) for the respective loci on the maternally and paternally derived chromosomes. Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
4) the Iron Age tribes werent compeltely descended from the Paleolithic and there is no source here which backs the claim, the sources here claim that European populations are mainly descended from the paleolithic inhabitants of Europe. The article didn't claim that the Iron Age tribes are completelly descended from the paleolithic population of Europe, it stated which themselves had a paleolithic indigenous ancestry within the British and Irish Isles, this is true, their ancestry was paleolithic, nowhere does it claim that their ancestry was exclusively paleolithic. It is true that by the Iron Age there had certainly been a Neolithic input into the European population (amounting to about 20% in Great Britain). Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
this information can not distinguish between very ancient (Paleo., Neo., etc.) and more recent migrations of peoples in the sense that Bronze Age
Isn't this exactly what the article states? Moreover, some genetic research seems to support the idea that the Y-chromosomes of people living in the British and Irish Isles are mainly descended from the indigenous European paleolithic population (80%), with about a 20% neolithic input. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Have you read the paper cited in the article Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans? mtDNA and Y chromosome DNA is used there and gives an 80-20 split, and the article Europeans Trace Ancestry to Paleolithic People states that the Y chromosome data for an 80-20 split are supported by mtDNA work. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No one claims that they do, but it is a fallacy to claim that any migrations into Great Britain at this time are a certainly. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Previously you claimed a single study. There have been more than two studies, three are listed above and show similar results. Of course the more data that are collected the better the picture will be. But the curent work does produce citable material that can be used. We do need to make sure that what we are verifying is actually what the paper states, it would be very bad to try to infer that a paper claims something that it does not. I think that the current wording of the article is more accurate than it was previously, and that is thanks to your observations. Alun 09:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem. You didn't make an intentional personal attack. I was originally very offended, some time later I began to suspect that you had not intended to imply that I was a supporter of the British National Party. It was a misunderstanding and I'm sorry for reacting so strongly to it, I should have realised you didn't intend to be offensive. Alun 11:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You appear not to understand what a POV is, if a reliable source states a POV, then it is perfectly acceptable to include that POV in an article as long as it is cited. What is not acceptable is to include only one POV when several exist, we should include the majority and all significant minority POVs, excluding only POVs held by tiny minorities, this is how neutrality is achieved. Alun 05:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to remove this section from the infobox. It's remained unverified for a long time, and these sections seem to be almost impossible to verify. I'm not convinced of the merits of this section, it is always a question of opinion, and then many editors want to make it a question of race or history rather than how modern Welsh people identify. There's also some info in the text of the article that is more enlightening about Welsh people seeing themselves as modern Celts, I think this provides better info. Would anyone object to removal of the section? Alun 05:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I would object. How would you know what most Welsh people identify with? I also know many Welsh people who see themselves as a seperate group, that is historically, linguistically, and ethnically related to other celtic peoples. But your view like my own is subjective and therefore cannot be used in this article. I believe that what is written on this page should be 100% fact, which is that Welsh people are an ethnic group, that are closely affiliated with other Celtic peoples. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alexpayne (
talk •
contribs)
One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers. The goal of Wikipedia is to become a complete and reliable encyclopedia. Editors should cite reliable sources so that their edits may be verified by readers and other editors. "Verifiability" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is thus verifiability, not truth. From verifiability policy. Alun 07:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't you feel you are being hypocritical here, on one hand you say 'what I believe is irrelevant' but on the other hand, you seek to remove all of the ethnic group boxes as you feel that they are wrong, as the current ethnic populations of countries cannot be defined by that population's ancestors and ethnicity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexpayne ( talk • contribs)
The claim has also been made that Indo-European languages may have been introduced to the British and Irish Isles as early as the early neolithic (or even earlier), with Goidelic and Brythonic languages possibly developing indigenously. Moreover, some genetic research seems to support the idea that the Y-chromosomes of people Alun 09:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I would object. How would you know what most Welsh people identify with? I also know many Welsh people who see themselves as a seperate group, that is historically, linguistically, and ethnically related to other celtic peoples. But your view like my own is subjective and therefore cannot be used in this article. I believe that what is written on this page should be 100% fact, which is that Welsh people are an ethnic group, that are closely affiliated with other Celtic peoples.
For about 5 years now DNA testing performed by hundreds of organizations has found again and again that the Welsh are genetically very similar to the Basques of northern Spain and south western France " Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons." BBC. "The Welsh and Irish Celts have been found to be the genetic blood-brothers of Basques, scientists have revealed.
The gene patterns of the three races passed down through the male line are all "strikingly similar", researchers concluded.
Link BBC Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions. " BBC
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Cavalli.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1b
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
As for the Welsh language, there is strong linguistic evidence that Welsh, Cornish and Cumbric are closely related to the Hamitic languages of North Africa and that the North African Berbers and most of the pre-celtic tribes of Britain shared a common ancestor that probably came from the Iberian peninsula or southern France. The first languages spoken in the British Isles by homo sapiens were probably not indo-european but rather something scholars would classify as hamitc.
http://www.britam.org/language.html
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Globe01 ( talk • contribs)
Yes, I would object. How would you know what most Welsh people identify with? I also know many Welsh people who see themselves as a seperate group, that is historically, linguistically, and ethnically related to other celtic peoples. But your view like my own is subjective and therefore cannot be used in this article. I believe that what is written on this page should be 100% fact, which is that Welsh people are an ethnic group, that are closely affiliated with other Celtic peoples.
I changed the wording of the sentence because the wording made it sound as if the genetic research the link was referring to was fully conclusive, reliable and repeatedy tested, which it isnt (as is population genetics as whole). Few studies have been carried out, each with controversial "conclusions" on the subject matter. In any case, the findings in this link do not add any more or less weight to the cultural diffusionist theory of some academics (the cultural diffuionist theory itself notably under increased crticism of late). I explained this in an earlier discourse above which points out why this test (largely based on MtDNA and Y-chrom., with some limited autosomal testing*) does not help differ between older paleolithic and neolithic age migrations and later bronze age, iron age, etc. migrations. Epf 05:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC) (*I say "limited" because its very controversial how autosomal testing is currently carried out in these studies since the autosomal markers are not as identifiable in aiding genetic genealogy as Y Chrom. or MtDNA markers)
In addition to the many studies that have been previously done pointing in the same direction, like the following one published by Oxford University Press, in which surprising genetic similarities can be seen between Britons and Spaniards (Spain is IberiaS) , in a genetic piece of research that takes into account up to 8 genetic loci, including mitocondrial, autosomal and Y-Chromosome DNA. See:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1361/T03
Now we have another Oxford study whose reference has been just published two days ago in which the origins of most Britons seem to be getting clearer and clearer and astonishingly very different from what it was previously thought (really, who would have thought that they come from the Spanish!.
It is also interesting in relation to the similarities between the Celtic areas of Britain and England.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1621766.ece
I cannot open the entire article from here, but it continues like this:
A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.
The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.
People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."
Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.
Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.
The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.
These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles. "Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.
It seems that here we have very interesting new information for the article.
Veritas et Severitas 02:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The first link you provide is actually cited in the Welsh people article. The second one appears to be little more than publicity for Sykes's book and there appears to be no new research done. See the discussion here
Talk:Anglo-Saxons#Major_new_genetic_study_2006_Oxford.
Alun
09:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
More information about Skyes research here. http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1393742006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Globe01 ( talk • contribs)
As regards the roll back by me:
More info
national genographic data on british isles to support the r1b evidence.
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
This discussion page is currently 56kb long and almost impossible to edit sensibly. And it is all about genetics and how to interpret genetic studies. Is that all there is to people? All that seems to happen on this discussion page is two or three people discussing studies (or press releases and/or press articles about said studies). At length. And no-one seems to be getting any near consensus. There is another 74kb of archive, over half of which is the same stuff. The history piece of the article is full of "citeneeded" on comments from history books and full of links to genetic studies. I regret ever adding the comment that there are people in Wales who assert a link with previous Celtic ancestors. My intended point at the time was not whether such a link exists, but that there is something of a self-image of Celts, from Celtica (attraction near Machynlleth now defunct) to Celtic Warriors (rugby team now.. urr.. defunct. Um). I realise that this is tricky stuff to describe with a neutral point of view, but tons has been written on self-image and self-identity and there was plenty of scope for expansion there. And now even that has now been turned into stuff about what that might mean genetically: "The consensus in Wales today is that they regard themselves as Celtic, claiming a heritage back to the Iron Age tribes, which themselves, based on modern genetic analysis, would appear to have had a predominantly paleolithic and neolithic indigenous ancestry".
You know, if I went down to the pub and asked "where do we come from?" (doubtless to be followed by "I mean, really, when you get down to it" and "what's it all about, hmm?"), I really doubt that most people would say "well, although the common shorthand is Celtic, in fact there is a traceable line back to the Iron Age, which itself can be shown to be derived from a predominantly stone age indigenous ancestry". I strongly query that the latest press releases on genetic research are the stuff of national identity. Except when the Western Mail has a slow news day.
But every time I check my watchlist, people (mostly the same few) are editing and re-editing the article and the discussion, changing stuff in their old posts (which makes it really difficult to follow, btw), disputing interpretations of data, and creating a 56kb (57 now, I expect, sorry!) page. And the genetics stuff is all over other "some adjective People" pages too. Not that I care too much about that, because I don't read them, but can't you settle on one location to hash it all out in? If it must be on this article, how about a subpage of the discussion?
Sorry to be so plaintive. But I just lose all heart to edit the rest of this article when there is a constant low-grade set of reversions along the lines of some/many, claimed/proven, tis/tisn't on one single aspect. Reading the history of the article in 250-edit chunks is depressing, because "tis/tisn't" sums up a lot of it.
Telsa (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
yeah thats a good idea alun, there might aswell be seperate articles on the genetics of a nations population for all countries with the amount of obsession people have with discussing genetics in counrties peoples discussion pages
globe01
Note the term "Welsh" is generally not always a good word to name our people, because some of us "Welsh" people in Wales object to the term in times, was used to offend and insult others in Great Britain (like "to Welsh them up" or "Welshing them") had violent meanings to promote ethnic and regional tensions against the "Welsh". Many of us preferably self-named ourselves Cymry, Cimries or Camries from an earlier source in our language (consult the Wikipedia article on Welsh people). I'm not suggesting do away with the term, but in a political correct world we live in (Wikipedia has focused on what may accidentally offend or disparage groups of people), the terminology of "Welsh" send horrifying mental images of some historic level of prejudice and discrimination against us Cymries for over hundreds of years. The major reason why many Cymries left Wales in the 18th and 19th centuries to North America, Australia and South Africa (even into Northern France, where thousands of older local residents has family in Wales) was to preserve our language and culture. The issue was when the culture was endangered by an approaching British conformity, anything "Welsh" was treated an unfavourable act and legal penalties were inflicted by English authorities for anyone who did "Welsh" cultural behaviours. I knew in the mid 1800s, Wales school houses punished students for openly speaking the language around instructors or teachers, and were rigourously disciplined for doing so. The children set at the corner or by the chalkboard had wore an embarrassing sign "Welsh Not" for English speaking children to observe how "those bad unpatriotic Welsh kids" are having a different culture. The Argentine-Welsh community struggles to preserve their cultural integrity in the year 2006, but the anti-British and nationalist mood during the Falkland Islands war (1982) made several thousand of people from the region emigrate to Canada and/or Chile. I never heard of the Argentine people adopted the term for reasons as a pejorative, but be in mind in part of ethnic sensitivity on the usage of "Welsh". 63.3.14.1 14:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Welsh_settlement_in_Argentina"
I personally believe it shouldn't be included at all in the entire article, especially when there's no reference given. 81.111.118.10 05:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)