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The contents of the Welsh Gold Dragon page were merged into Welsh Dragon on 23 September 2022 and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
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redirect that has been
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I found this page because you linked it from a page I watch. Per
WP:DEMOLISH I will give this some time for you to establish what it is that you are building here, and won't edit or otherwise interfere on the page. However I wonder if you have considered whether this subject is notable for an article. The Gold dragon banner of Owain Glyndwr is well established, but I am unaware of any "Gold Dragon of Wales". Your lead at the moment is problematic because it reads: The Golden Dragon (Welsh: Y Ddraig Aur) is a symbol used by Celtic Briton leaders, Uther and Arthur Pendragon and later by Owain Glyndwr, the last native Prince of Wales.
I have read the whole of your source for use by Uther and Arthur. William Ferris proposes some sources that establish a dragon banner, at least once called Gold. But the primary sources cited are just Geoffrey of Monmouth and others, and have little if anything to do with a historical Arthur. I don't think the lead should say it was used by these leaders, because we don't even have any good evidence that these people existed. OK, so it is legend, but the lead doesn't seem to tell us that. In any case, these can't be counted as a Gold Dragon of Wales. So all we really have is Glyndwr, and although he used the standard, he did not make that standard a national emblem for Wales. Where are the reliable sources that state that there is a gold dragon of Wales?
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
18:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
this dragon would also have flown throughout his campaign for Welsh independenceis supported by 4 sources but these are 3 newspapers and the BBC website. All of them are reliable published sources for news (although quality varies) but per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, none of these are a reliable source for the claim that Glyndwr's dragon flew throughout the campaign. This is being presented as a history article, so what historians have said there is such a thing as a Welsh Gold Dragon standard? Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 10:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Celticists have suggested that the original Welsh dragon was of a "ruddy gold" colour. You quote this from Ferris (1959), but he references Scott-Giles (1951), that is "The Romance of Heraldry". Scott Giles has the statement exactly as you have it here. Yours is a direct quote, but Scott-Giles provides no reference. We remain in the dark as to who these Celticists are, and on what grounds they make the claim that the red dragon was originally "ruddy gold". In any case, suggesting this implies there was an earlier Welsh gold dragon smacks of WP:OR. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 11:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Welsh Gold Dragon page were merged into Welsh Dragon on 23 September 2022 and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
This is the
talk page of a
redirect that has been
merged and now targets the page: • Welsh Dragon Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Welsh Dragon Merged page edit history is maintained in order to preserve attributions. |
I found this page because you linked it from a page I watch. Per
WP:DEMOLISH I will give this some time for you to establish what it is that you are building here, and won't edit or otherwise interfere on the page. However I wonder if you have considered whether this subject is notable for an article. The Gold dragon banner of Owain Glyndwr is well established, but I am unaware of any "Gold Dragon of Wales". Your lead at the moment is problematic because it reads: The Golden Dragon (Welsh: Y Ddraig Aur) is a symbol used by Celtic Briton leaders, Uther and Arthur Pendragon and later by Owain Glyndwr, the last native Prince of Wales.
I have read the whole of your source for use by Uther and Arthur. William Ferris proposes some sources that establish a dragon banner, at least once called Gold. But the primary sources cited are just Geoffrey of Monmouth and others, and have little if anything to do with a historical Arthur. I don't think the lead should say it was used by these leaders, because we don't even have any good evidence that these people existed. OK, so it is legend, but the lead doesn't seem to tell us that. In any case, these can't be counted as a Gold Dragon of Wales. So all we really have is Glyndwr, and although he used the standard, he did not make that standard a national emblem for Wales. Where are the reliable sources that state that there is a gold dragon of Wales?
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
18:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
this dragon would also have flown throughout his campaign for Welsh independenceis supported by 4 sources but these are 3 newspapers and the BBC website. All of them are reliable published sources for news (although quality varies) but per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, none of these are a reliable source for the claim that Glyndwr's dragon flew throughout the campaign. This is being presented as a history article, so what historians have said there is such a thing as a Welsh Gold Dragon standard? Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 10:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Celticists have suggested that the original Welsh dragon was of a "ruddy gold" colour. You quote this from Ferris (1959), but he references Scott-Giles (1951), that is "The Romance of Heraldry". Scott Giles has the statement exactly as you have it here. Yours is a direct quote, but Scott-Giles provides no reference. We remain in the dark as to who these Celticists are, and on what grounds they make the claim that the red dragon was originally "ruddy gold". In any case, suggesting this implies there was an earlier Welsh gold dragon smacks of WP:OR. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 11:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)