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Should this be listed as a sea shanty when it's apparently more of a whaling ballad that has a chorus? [1] Eowar ( talk) 08:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I reverted [1], since no source was given that connects the song to Invercauld (ship) and I couldn't find anything in a quick search. -- Tobias ( Talk) 16:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
How can the song originate from 1860-70, when the Weller Brothers were declared bankrupt in 1840 and Otakou station wase closed in 1841? Also the mentioning of "1860-70" is a claim without reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:1CBC:E600:FC57:B35:421C:873C ( talk) 11:03, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
A reference in the body as "The song is also listed—with a detailed historical explanation and transcription on <www.folksong.org.nz>."
Based on that description, I assume Jøn is referring to the same page that is [1] from the Article,
I wanted to break in on myself here to say that, though (I think because of the colors of text and background) I also missed it before, there is also the fact that the folksong.org.nz Weller page header contains an explicit (and unsourced) 1860-1870 claim:
External image | |
---|---|
![]() |
folksong.org.nz is used in the History section to include the possible authorship by "D.H. Rogers". In that section of the page, Archer does speculate (from 2002) that if Rogers was the author, AND he was born c. 1820, he might "could have been a teenaged sailor and/or shore whaler around NZ in the late 1830s, settled in Australia, written the shanties in his later years as his composing skills developed," – which could broadly conform to an c. 1860-1870 origin, but is based on ~3 levels of speculation (that Woods' uncle was the author rather than someone who also learned the song from an earlier source, that Woods' uncle was Rogers, and when Rogers was born)
The oldest proven origin of the song may be the 1973 book [1] But I refrain from editing this, because I have not read it. I can find no earlier reference to the song in digitized Australian or NZ newspapers. If the book is the first publication, then the song is said to have been 'collected' (misappropriated) and copyright belongs to the editor Neil Colquhoun. Tradimus ( talk) 13:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
I believe, admittedly without evidence, that the song was written by Neil Colquhoun himself, and is thus modern. An analysis of the lyrics could probably establish that. The tall tale of a whaler - clearly not an actual ship or it would bear the name of a real vessel - is conveniently combined with a Moby Dick-style fight to the death, with a touch of the Flying Dutchman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2401:7000:D84E:AE00:D4FA:1DD9:822E:DDB5 ( talk) 01:30, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
In reading and comparing the texts of
As well as just reading/skimming
I gained some concern about the whole run of citations in the History section of the article:
In short, [1] seems to be the only internet source on the History of the song in this article and additional sources in the section (except Dyer's non-comittal quote in [12]) are all indirect citations of it,
and at least the first below is misconstruing what it says.
It would probably be best if an interested party (say a a member of WikiProject New Zealand's Music task force) could get a copy of Colquhoun, or in contact with Archer (via the email on the www.folksong.org.nz homepage?) to ferret out his sources 😄
“ | Researching that link led Archer to shanties published in The Bulletin paper in Sydney in 1904. His Google “guesswork” suggests Wellerman’s composer was a teenage sailor or shore whaler around New Zealand in the late 1830s, who penned the ditty on settling in Australia then passed it down within his family around the turn of the century. |
” |
Following [11a] the sentence continues on citing the NYTimes quoting "Michael P. Dyer, the maritime curator at the New Bedford Whaling Museum in Massachusetts."
[13] does discuss Neil Colquhoun's existence and his authorship/editing of "Song of a Young Country" but does not adress the 1916 collection or mention Wellerman in any way
This should perhaps read "It was originally collected around 1966 by Glenfield College music teacher[13] and folk song compiler Neil Colquhoun"
I have not been able to find a specific source for the 1966 or "around 1966" claim, other than – again Archer's statment as such in [1] and downstream sources therefrom
... There is more of the History section where that is the only citation... then
Yours in spending.. just WAAAAY too much time today thinking about this song,
~
Donald Guy (
talk)
05:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 11:41, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Soon May the Wellerman Come → Wellerman – This short name appears to be the gernerally used name of the tune, especially during the modern revival. Seems like all modern covers and media attention prefers the short title, and it also googles over 80x as much as the full title. The WP:COMMONNAME should take precedence over the WP:OFFICIALNAME. Gaioa ( T C L) 11:35, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
This song was recorded and videotaped by The Irish Rovers in 1977. It can be found on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhYPCb4RQDc Grandma Roses ( talk) 13:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
I would propose adding some mentions of parodies in the section referring to the 2021 re-popularization. A prime example is the "Kittyman" parody posted to YouTube on 30 Jan 2021 by the Trailer Park Boys channel that has garnered millions of views. It wouldn't deserve its own entry, but probably makes sense to record in this article.
I would be happy to help add this content if I can. I don't know if this version has history beyond the recent revival of the ballad or not. I am also not particularly aware of any other popular parodies, but I was not aware of the trend and repopularization of this ballad. I actually bumped into the "Kittyman" parody first, and as I'm a fan of this style of music and the tune was familiar, I went looking for the inspiration and the history of the original.
The provenance of this song as dating from the 19c is extraordinarily weak. The tune also seems to bear an astonishingly close resemblance to "The Lightning Tree", the theme of the TV series Follyfoot (1971-1973), popular just before "Wellerman" magically appeared (1973). It seems odd that the article doesn't address this question, even if just to put to rest the natural suspicion. Starple ( talk) 12:29, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
So this is two pronged and I was wondering if its notable enough to be included:
-The Toonami block of Adult Swim aired an adaptation of this back in 2022, formatted to fit One Piece (anime). You can tell its based on the song due to the similar beat. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ggBJ_n5SjF0itIL6&v=rTBX07A3obI&feature=youtu.be
- Skull and Bones (video game) uses a version of this song in a trailer of theirs. Its on Apple Music atm https://music.apple.com/us/album/wellerman-sea-shanty-skull-and-bones-version/1726397518?i=1726397527
So i was wondering if either of these is notable enough to be mentioned in the article? Figured I’d bring it up so it can be discussed properly. OWGNicholas ( talk) 15:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
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Should this be listed as a sea shanty when it's apparently more of a whaling ballad that has a chorus? [1] Eowar ( talk) 08:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I reverted [1], since no source was given that connects the song to Invercauld (ship) and I couldn't find anything in a quick search. -- Tobias ( Talk) 16:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
How can the song originate from 1860-70, when the Weller Brothers were declared bankrupt in 1840 and Otakou station wase closed in 1841? Also the mentioning of "1860-70" is a claim without reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:1CBC:E600:FC57:B35:421C:873C ( talk) 11:03, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
A reference in the body as "The song is also listed—with a detailed historical explanation and transcription on <www.folksong.org.nz>."
Based on that description, I assume Jøn is referring to the same page that is [1] from the Article,
I wanted to break in on myself here to say that, though (I think because of the colors of text and background) I also missed it before, there is also the fact that the folksong.org.nz Weller page header contains an explicit (and unsourced) 1860-1870 claim:
External image | |
---|---|
![]() |
folksong.org.nz is used in the History section to include the possible authorship by "D.H. Rogers". In that section of the page, Archer does speculate (from 2002) that if Rogers was the author, AND he was born c. 1820, he might "could have been a teenaged sailor and/or shore whaler around NZ in the late 1830s, settled in Australia, written the shanties in his later years as his composing skills developed," – which could broadly conform to an c. 1860-1870 origin, but is based on ~3 levels of speculation (that Woods' uncle was the author rather than someone who also learned the song from an earlier source, that Woods' uncle was Rogers, and when Rogers was born)
The oldest proven origin of the song may be the 1973 book [1] But I refrain from editing this, because I have not read it. I can find no earlier reference to the song in digitized Australian or NZ newspapers. If the book is the first publication, then the song is said to have been 'collected' (misappropriated) and copyright belongs to the editor Neil Colquhoun. Tradimus ( talk) 13:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
I believe, admittedly without evidence, that the song was written by Neil Colquhoun himself, and is thus modern. An analysis of the lyrics could probably establish that. The tall tale of a whaler - clearly not an actual ship or it would bear the name of a real vessel - is conveniently combined with a Moby Dick-style fight to the death, with a touch of the Flying Dutchman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2401:7000:D84E:AE00:D4FA:1DD9:822E:DDB5 ( talk) 01:30, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
In reading and comparing the texts of
As well as just reading/skimming
I gained some concern about the whole run of citations in the History section of the article:
In short, [1] seems to be the only internet source on the History of the song in this article and additional sources in the section (except Dyer's non-comittal quote in [12]) are all indirect citations of it,
and at least the first below is misconstruing what it says.
It would probably be best if an interested party (say a a member of WikiProject New Zealand's Music task force) could get a copy of Colquhoun, or in contact with Archer (via the email on the www.folksong.org.nz homepage?) to ferret out his sources 😄
“ | Researching that link led Archer to shanties published in The Bulletin paper in Sydney in 1904. His Google “guesswork” suggests Wellerman’s composer was a teenage sailor or shore whaler around New Zealand in the late 1830s, who penned the ditty on settling in Australia then passed it down within his family around the turn of the century. |
” |
Following [11a] the sentence continues on citing the NYTimes quoting "Michael P. Dyer, the maritime curator at the New Bedford Whaling Museum in Massachusetts."
[13] does discuss Neil Colquhoun's existence and his authorship/editing of "Song of a Young Country" but does not adress the 1916 collection or mention Wellerman in any way
This should perhaps read "It was originally collected around 1966 by Glenfield College music teacher[13] and folk song compiler Neil Colquhoun"
I have not been able to find a specific source for the 1966 or "around 1966" claim, other than – again Archer's statment as such in [1] and downstream sources therefrom
... There is more of the History section where that is the only citation... then
Yours in spending.. just WAAAAY too much time today thinking about this song,
~
Donald Guy (
talk)
05:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 11:41, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Soon May the Wellerman Come → Wellerman – This short name appears to be the gernerally used name of the tune, especially during the modern revival. Seems like all modern covers and media attention prefers the short title, and it also googles over 80x as much as the full title. The WP:COMMONNAME should take precedence over the WP:OFFICIALNAME. Gaioa ( T C L) 11:35, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
This song was recorded and videotaped by The Irish Rovers in 1977. It can be found on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhYPCb4RQDc Grandma Roses ( talk) 13:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
I would propose adding some mentions of parodies in the section referring to the 2021 re-popularization. A prime example is the "Kittyman" parody posted to YouTube on 30 Jan 2021 by the Trailer Park Boys channel that has garnered millions of views. It wouldn't deserve its own entry, but probably makes sense to record in this article.
I would be happy to help add this content if I can. I don't know if this version has history beyond the recent revival of the ballad or not. I am also not particularly aware of any other popular parodies, but I was not aware of the trend and repopularization of this ballad. I actually bumped into the "Kittyman" parody first, and as I'm a fan of this style of music and the tune was familiar, I went looking for the inspiration and the history of the original.
The provenance of this song as dating from the 19c is extraordinarily weak. The tune also seems to bear an astonishingly close resemblance to "The Lightning Tree", the theme of the TV series Follyfoot (1971-1973), popular just before "Wellerman" magically appeared (1973). It seems odd that the article doesn't address this question, even if just to put to rest the natural suspicion. Starple ( talk) 12:29, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
So this is two pronged and I was wondering if its notable enough to be included:
-The Toonami block of Adult Swim aired an adaptation of this back in 2022, formatted to fit One Piece (anime). You can tell its based on the song due to the similar beat. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ggBJ_n5SjF0itIL6&v=rTBX07A3obI&feature=youtu.be
- Skull and Bones (video game) uses a version of this song in a trailer of theirs. Its on Apple Music atm https://music.apple.com/us/album/wellerman-sea-shanty-skull-and-bones-version/1726397518?i=1726397527
So i was wondering if either of these is notable enough to be mentioned in the article? Figured I’d bring it up so it can be discussed properly. OWGNicholas ( talk) 15:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)