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Is it neccessary to have this page present? I propose that it be merged with the Khrushchev article where it most applies. --Zippanova 05:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also, please read the welcome notice on your talk page carefully. I see you have already deleted it. If you want to edit here, you must understand how things work. It will take some time. Mikkalai 06:22, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Saturday 17th or Sunday 18th? The two sources differ on the date. Bastie 20:35, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I added a reference to Sting song "Russians". I am unsure as the best way to add this reference so I just added a new section. -- Triskell 21:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Cut from article:
This quote is also used in the SpongeBob Squarepants episode Rock-a-Bye Bivalve. A worm comes out of an apple bringing greetings from "Apple World", and before it is fed to the scallop it says "We will bury you!"
Too trivial. - Jmabel | Talk 19:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have cut the trivia from the article. If someone wants to start an "in popular culture" article—possibly on Khrushchev in general, not on this one phrase—that would be a better place for these:
On another note about trivia, is the link to Mark Lucovsky really necessary? (Furthermore, is a page dedicated to him necessary also?) --anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.159.75.88 ( talk) 06:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not competent to comment on the precise meaning in Russian idiom of the time, but I do believe that to be largely irrelevant. What matters above all else is what Western politicians and populations THOUGHT IT MEAN'T after making allowances for the fact that the precise quote was unlikely to be communicated to them accurately anyhow. What they thought it mean't (as I myself recollect from that time) was that it was a threat, and a real threat. Secondly, given that it was generally percieved in the West as a threat, it was a factor in defence planning. That's what defence planners are for; to plan ahead on the basis of what they know. And they knew that Khrushchev's threat APPEARED TO THEM to be a real one. In Britain in particular, it was one of a number of factors that led government to the conclusion that the U.K. must accellerate efforts to acquire an independent nuclear force, that at the time of Khruschev's threat barely existed; their first fission bomb was only delivered to the airforce in 1953 and there were no aircraft able to carry it. A U.K. thermonuclear bomb was not tested until two years after Mr K's threat, and was then several more years from deployment. Brian.Burnell 16:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
He took his shoe off, and pounded the table vigorously while shouting 'we will bury you' during the height of the cold war. In what world is that even potentially not a threat? It is a dubious to even imply that there was some subtle underlying miscommunicated subtext involved.
Bottom line: It doesn't matter. Whether the statement was a threat (no matter how obviously), or a miscommunication (no matter how dubiously) neutral tone demands that we only report what he said, and the manner in which he said it. Our interpretations are based on conjecture and speculation.
" In 1956 a British prime minister was on the receiving end. It was a speech to the United Nations by Harold Macmillan that Soviet President Nikita Kruschev famously interrupted by beating his shoe against his desk before shouting to the US representatives "We will bury you".
Macmillan, in keeping with his reputation for unflappability, responded to the highly irregular shoe-banging with: "I shall have to have that translated!"
"
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2368397.stm
DrAvery
14:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"The translation has been controversial because it was presented as being belligerent out of context. The phrase may well have been intended to mean the Soviet Union would outlast the West, as a more complete version of the quote reads: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you"—a meaning more akin to "we will attend your funeral" than "we shall cause your funeral"."
This is belligerent either way. If someone told you "(we) will attend your funeral", how would you react? He basically told us that he would destroy our way of life and that our children would be slaves to collectivism. His exact words were: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you. Your children will live under communism". That is a belligerent statement. By the way, if anyone here ever visits his grave, toss a handfull of dirt onto it and ask the first person you see where the closest McDonald's is. 70.172.198.145 08:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Mike Reason
It is clearly a belligerent statement and the offending paragraph in the article quoted above is an effort in excuse making and obscurantism. The article should present the quote in its full context but it should not attempt to engage in original research and speculation about what the phrase "may have been intended to mean" in an effort to obscure the very obvious meaning of a boorish, offensive and belligerent threat at the height of the cold war. I doubt this needs extensive talk page discussion, especially when considered in its true context; diplomatic language that is carefully crafted to convey specific meanings and limitations of a governments foreign policy. The offending section of the article as its stands is not history and it does not inform, is it historical revisionism and playing Khrushchev apologist. 58.173.51.73 ( talk) 15:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is the original text:
"Нравится вам или нет, но история на нашей стороне. Мы вас закопаем". And this is not what original article states. Literal translation "Мы вас закопаем" is a slang and it means "win over you after long struggle". No, it does not mean "outlast". And of course it does not mean "kill" or "put somebody in the grave".
Source: Gorbachev's
"Перестройка и новое мышление для нашей страны и для всего мира"
Wikisib ( talk) 17:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that "outlive" is the closest idiomatic translation of "закопаем" in context. "Bury" is significantly more grave. I wonder if we'll ever know who had supplied this translation and if there was ever a discussion. Alex.K.NY ( talk) 01:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
In the above Gorbachev's quotation Khrushchev said 'закопаем' (zakopaem) in place of 'похороним' (pohoronim), and russian wikipedia also states that the original word was 'zakopaem'. These words are synonyms in russian, and I believe that the quotation in the article should be changed to the latter form.
Also, here are my two cents to the interpretation of his speech: as you might know Khrushchev was not as highly educated as his fellow english and american ambassadors. In fact he had to earn his living instead of school since 14. Actually bad manners were kind of fashionable things amongst Party leaders at that time. So it looks natural to me that he sometimes couldn't see difference between diplomatic meetings and private conversation. In private conversation 'we will bury you' sounds more like profanity or swearing, than military threat.
Offtopic: This is closely connected to the whole problem of perception of Cold War struggle of regimes in the West and USSR: to the westerners it was to the greater extent military struggle and the soviet POV on it was like natural competition. Internal perception. 213.131.7.83 ( talk) 14:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but Pohoronim has more specific grave connotation whereas zakapaem is simply bury. I say it is changed to zakapaem, as that is how the phrase is used in regular speech and it sounds better that way. 109.155.124.222 ( talk) 15:16, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Could someone look at the transliteration? I'm pretty sure that Мы is not My. Of course, I could be wrong. In that case I would suggest the use of IPA.
173.24.177.179 (
talk)
00:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Not sure I understand the relevance of; "Another famous Khrushchev prediction was made to the then U.S. Vice President Richard Nixon at an American technology exhibit in Moscow: "In 7 years we will reach the level of America. When we catch up and pass you by, we'll wave to you." being placed in this article as the two aren't really related as far as I can tell. I also took out there it said that Khrushchev made a failed prediction or whatever it was because, though it did not happen in his lifetime, and may not happen in mine, who is to say the American Porletariat will not overthrow American capitalism as Khrushchev predicted?
The "Comments" link to comments by Stephen Pearl (Chief of the English Interpretation Section of the U.N. in New York from _1980 to 1994) in the External Links no longer works. Instead it leads to the message: We're sorry, access to http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.studies.literature.slavic/2220 has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt. I did a very bad internet search and didn't find it, but I'll try digging harder and see if I turn it up. Cloveapple ( talk) 18:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Re: "We will bury you was (or is?) a phrase famously used by Kruschev...
See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Grammar#was or is?. -- B2 C 20:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
What does this mean? Is there a better translation available?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
The last sentence of the history section has the line "...the image used by Khrushchev was inspired by the acute discussions among Soviet agrarian scientists in the 1930s..." with "agrarian scientists" linking to the article on modern agricultural science. This link does not seem very helpful, so I wonder whether there is a more appropriate target. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 02:21, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
BTW Russian google gives the following quote abundantly (copycats, I guess):
Interesting to verify against the source. - üser:Altenmann >t 05:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Actually a book gives a longer quote (with the same place/date ref)"
- üser:Altenmann >t 05:52, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
In other words, Gorbachev's version about agrarniks is bullshit. - üser:Altenmann >t 06:00, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Жестокие удары обрушивались тогда и на ученых, и на поэтов, и на иных выдающихся или простых людей, не говоря уже о партийно-государственных деятелях. Один из них шутил по этому поводу: «У меня со Сталиным разногласия по аграрному вопросу — кто кого закопает».
A list of the NATO members that got up and walked out w/country would be helpful info. 104.169.37.99 ( talk) 03:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
“We will outlast you” was clearly the best translation. It was removed. 67.83.101.225 ( talk) 15:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 18, 2016, November 18, 2017, November 18, 2018, November 18, 2020, November 18, 2021, and November 18, 2022. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it neccessary to have this page present? I propose that it be merged with the Khrushchev article where it most applies. --Zippanova 05:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also, please read the welcome notice on your talk page carefully. I see you have already deleted it. If you want to edit here, you must understand how things work. It will take some time. Mikkalai 06:22, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Saturday 17th or Sunday 18th? The two sources differ on the date. Bastie 20:35, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I added a reference to Sting song "Russians". I am unsure as the best way to add this reference so I just added a new section. -- Triskell 21:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Cut from article:
This quote is also used in the SpongeBob Squarepants episode Rock-a-Bye Bivalve. A worm comes out of an apple bringing greetings from "Apple World", and before it is fed to the scallop it says "We will bury you!"
Too trivial. - Jmabel | Talk 19:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have cut the trivia from the article. If someone wants to start an "in popular culture" article—possibly on Khrushchev in general, not on this one phrase—that would be a better place for these:
On another note about trivia, is the link to Mark Lucovsky really necessary? (Furthermore, is a page dedicated to him necessary also?) --anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.159.75.88 ( talk) 06:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not competent to comment on the precise meaning in Russian idiom of the time, but I do believe that to be largely irrelevant. What matters above all else is what Western politicians and populations THOUGHT IT MEAN'T after making allowances for the fact that the precise quote was unlikely to be communicated to them accurately anyhow. What they thought it mean't (as I myself recollect from that time) was that it was a threat, and a real threat. Secondly, given that it was generally percieved in the West as a threat, it was a factor in defence planning. That's what defence planners are for; to plan ahead on the basis of what they know. And they knew that Khrushchev's threat APPEARED TO THEM to be a real one. In Britain in particular, it was one of a number of factors that led government to the conclusion that the U.K. must accellerate efforts to acquire an independent nuclear force, that at the time of Khruschev's threat barely existed; their first fission bomb was only delivered to the airforce in 1953 and there were no aircraft able to carry it. A U.K. thermonuclear bomb was not tested until two years after Mr K's threat, and was then several more years from deployment. Brian.Burnell 16:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
He took his shoe off, and pounded the table vigorously while shouting 'we will bury you' during the height of the cold war. In what world is that even potentially not a threat? It is a dubious to even imply that there was some subtle underlying miscommunicated subtext involved.
Bottom line: It doesn't matter. Whether the statement was a threat (no matter how obviously), or a miscommunication (no matter how dubiously) neutral tone demands that we only report what he said, and the manner in which he said it. Our interpretations are based on conjecture and speculation.
" In 1956 a British prime minister was on the receiving end. It was a speech to the United Nations by Harold Macmillan that Soviet President Nikita Kruschev famously interrupted by beating his shoe against his desk before shouting to the US representatives "We will bury you".
Macmillan, in keeping with his reputation for unflappability, responded to the highly irregular shoe-banging with: "I shall have to have that translated!"
"
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2368397.stm
DrAvery
14:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"The translation has been controversial because it was presented as being belligerent out of context. The phrase may well have been intended to mean the Soviet Union would outlast the West, as a more complete version of the quote reads: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you"—a meaning more akin to "we will attend your funeral" than "we shall cause your funeral"."
This is belligerent either way. If someone told you "(we) will attend your funeral", how would you react? He basically told us that he would destroy our way of life and that our children would be slaves to collectivism. His exact words were: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you. Your children will live under communism". That is a belligerent statement. By the way, if anyone here ever visits his grave, toss a handfull of dirt onto it and ask the first person you see where the closest McDonald's is. 70.172.198.145 08:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Mike Reason
It is clearly a belligerent statement and the offending paragraph in the article quoted above is an effort in excuse making and obscurantism. The article should present the quote in its full context but it should not attempt to engage in original research and speculation about what the phrase "may have been intended to mean" in an effort to obscure the very obvious meaning of a boorish, offensive and belligerent threat at the height of the cold war. I doubt this needs extensive talk page discussion, especially when considered in its true context; diplomatic language that is carefully crafted to convey specific meanings and limitations of a governments foreign policy. The offending section of the article as its stands is not history and it does not inform, is it historical revisionism and playing Khrushchev apologist. 58.173.51.73 ( talk) 15:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is the original text:
"Нравится вам или нет, но история на нашей стороне. Мы вас закопаем". And this is not what original article states. Literal translation "Мы вас закопаем" is a slang and it means "win over you after long struggle". No, it does not mean "outlast". And of course it does not mean "kill" or "put somebody in the grave".
Source: Gorbachev's
"Перестройка и новое мышление для нашей страны и для всего мира"
Wikisib ( talk) 17:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that "outlive" is the closest idiomatic translation of "закопаем" in context. "Bury" is significantly more grave. I wonder if we'll ever know who had supplied this translation and if there was ever a discussion. Alex.K.NY ( talk) 01:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
In the above Gorbachev's quotation Khrushchev said 'закопаем' (zakopaem) in place of 'похороним' (pohoronim), and russian wikipedia also states that the original word was 'zakopaem'. These words are synonyms in russian, and I believe that the quotation in the article should be changed to the latter form.
Also, here are my two cents to the interpretation of his speech: as you might know Khrushchev was not as highly educated as his fellow english and american ambassadors. In fact he had to earn his living instead of school since 14. Actually bad manners were kind of fashionable things amongst Party leaders at that time. So it looks natural to me that he sometimes couldn't see difference between diplomatic meetings and private conversation. In private conversation 'we will bury you' sounds more like profanity or swearing, than military threat.
Offtopic: This is closely connected to the whole problem of perception of Cold War struggle of regimes in the West and USSR: to the westerners it was to the greater extent military struggle and the soviet POV on it was like natural competition. Internal perception. 213.131.7.83 ( talk) 14:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but Pohoronim has more specific grave connotation whereas zakapaem is simply bury. I say it is changed to zakapaem, as that is how the phrase is used in regular speech and it sounds better that way. 109.155.124.222 ( talk) 15:16, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Could someone look at the transliteration? I'm pretty sure that Мы is not My. Of course, I could be wrong. In that case I would suggest the use of IPA.
173.24.177.179 (
talk)
00:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Not sure I understand the relevance of; "Another famous Khrushchev prediction was made to the then U.S. Vice President Richard Nixon at an American technology exhibit in Moscow: "In 7 years we will reach the level of America. When we catch up and pass you by, we'll wave to you." being placed in this article as the two aren't really related as far as I can tell. I also took out there it said that Khrushchev made a failed prediction or whatever it was because, though it did not happen in his lifetime, and may not happen in mine, who is to say the American Porletariat will not overthrow American capitalism as Khrushchev predicted?
The "Comments" link to comments by Stephen Pearl (Chief of the English Interpretation Section of the U.N. in New York from _1980 to 1994) in the External Links no longer works. Instead it leads to the message: We're sorry, access to http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.studies.literature.slavic/2220 has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt. I did a very bad internet search and didn't find it, but I'll try digging harder and see if I turn it up. Cloveapple ( talk) 18:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Re: "We will bury you was (or is?) a phrase famously used by Kruschev...
See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Grammar#was or is?. -- B2 C 20:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
What does this mean? Is there a better translation available?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
The last sentence of the history section has the line "...the image used by Khrushchev was inspired by the acute discussions among Soviet agrarian scientists in the 1930s..." with "agrarian scientists" linking to the article on modern agricultural science. This link does not seem very helpful, so I wonder whether there is a more appropriate target. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 02:21, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
BTW Russian google gives the following quote abundantly (copycats, I guess):
Interesting to verify against the source. - üser:Altenmann >t 05:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Actually a book gives a longer quote (with the same place/date ref)"
- üser:Altenmann >t 05:52, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
In other words, Gorbachev's version about agrarniks is bullshit. - üser:Altenmann >t 06:00, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Жестокие удары обрушивались тогда и на ученых, и на поэтов, и на иных выдающихся или простых людей, не говоря уже о партийно-государственных деятелях. Один из них шутил по этому поводу: «У меня со Сталиным разногласия по аграрному вопросу — кто кого закопает».
A list of the NATO members that got up and walked out w/country would be helpful info. 104.169.37.99 ( talk) 03:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
“We will outlast you” was clearly the best translation. It was removed. 67.83.101.225 ( talk) 15:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)