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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Presumably this is in reference to a film, TV, or video game character, as that is most certainly not what is meant when one refers to a 'warlock' without any other context. In that case, it is imperative to make clear that you are talking about a fictional character, explain which fictional universe it comes from, and use a different page name (this, in my view, is one of the few places where subpages make sense). -- Robert Merkel
Alot of people don't care about this; to them warlock means a term for a powerful sorcerer.
Or a real cool one.
-Izaak
Somebody manually created this footnote, but I see no indication of where it is supposed to apply. Moving it here so perhaps somebody can fix it... Frater Xyzzy 21:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The TV & Movies section lists the 1959 film "Warlock". This is a Western, set in a town of that name, and has no other connection to the subject of the article. Do people think that should be mentioned om the page, or should the reference be removed altogether? Rojomoke 12:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Kitmarlowe, I've already contacted you on your talk page explaining why I disagree with your disparaging comments about Wicca and Wiccans, and you haven't chosen to reply or explain your point of view, instead simply adding back some of the disputed statements. You're not improving this article (or the other articles in which you're doing similar things), because you're giving them a strong tone of bias, and you're introducing flakey assertions which probably aren't true.
Take for example your suggestion that Wiccans probably got the "oath-breaker" usage from modern television shows like The Craft and Charmed. That is original research, meaning that is your own opinion, rather than that of any reliable source you've read. I doubt you will find any decent source making this claim, since the widespread usage of this term in Wiccan context goes back at least 35 years. When I was initiated into Wicca in 1997, shortly after that file "The Craft" kicked off the pop-Wicca movement, the word was already in common usage. Traditional Wiccans tend to be rather horrified by "Charmed", "The Craft", "Buffy" etc; I for one have never watched any of these, apart from a couple of early episodes of Charmed. A couple of my teachers (who have never watched any of these shows) can attest to the word's use 35 years ago. It may be that this usage is a modern innovation dating from the 50s or 60s; that's anyone's guess, but it certainly predates pop Wicca.
Now I wouldn't dream of putting any of this information into the article, since it's not based on published sources; however neither should you dream of putting your own unsupported and unsupportable assertions in Wikipedia. Furthermore, these assertions don't seem to be made in the interests of historical accuracy or balanced presentation; instead they seem to be intended as vehicles for denigrating Wicca in comparison to "traditional witchcraft". Please stop this. Remember that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and one of its fundamental principles is that articles should take a neutral point of view. If you have some historical knowledge, as you seem to, there are much more useful and constructive ways that you can improve the encyclopedia, and promote your preferred variety of witchcraft (such as by improving the associated articles). You can even make informed criticisms of Wicca, and they will be welcomed by the community here, as long as they're actually based on real research, rather than just your own prejudice. Wikipedia is much more rewarding when you start making really decent edits (rather than poorly thought-out edits that will be quickly reverted). You then start adding to human knowledge. Have fun. Fuzzypeg ☻ 21:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The entire section "warlock in games" has ONE reference. The section is a waste of space, as those uses are not notable.-- Vidkun 14:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
User:KitMarlowe2 is repeatedly adding comments criticising Wiccan use of the term "warlock". Does anyone else think his edits are inappropriate? I see this as an issue of WP:NPOV. I'm not even bothered whether Wicca gets mentioned in this article or not, but someone put the information here, so it may as well be correct and well-written. I've added some verification for the use of the term (The Witches' Voice seems reasonable, and KitMarlowe was clamouring for a reference); I haven't bothered to find verification for the history of that usage though. If anyone wants to put the work in and find some sources regarding this history, that would be great; in the meantime KitMarlowe's unfounded suggestions that we got it off the telly seem a bit insulting. Anyone want to add their moral support here? Fuzzypeg ☻ 20:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the etymology:
Given all this, I think it's very reasonable to remove the mention of "varðlokkur" as a possible etymology, and the (uncited) "highly speculative" etymology of it as "man of the logs". Anyone opposed? -- Miskwito 08:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, we've been through this ad nauseum when you were calling yourself KitMarlowe2. If you want to say that "warlock" originally only meant "to bind" in a Wiccan context, then provide evidence. If you want to say that the "oath-breaker" usage is a later development, then provide evidence. If you want to say that Wiccan usage of the term is based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, then provide evidence. It makes no difference whether you're Paul Huson or Winston Churchill; you're making unsupported assertions about a tradition that you're clearly quite ignorant of. And if your intention is just to bag Wicca, then please go elsewhere. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The introduction seems to imply that there really was such a thing as a warlock who could fly on a broomstick... Although not blatant, the implication needs to be taken out of the context of the paragraph, and present that this is, or may be a fantastical representation of the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.172.44 ( talk) 11:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I cut out some vandalism in the entymology section referring to warlock's as "broken." This was a reference to the World of Warcraft character class. --Joel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.87.128 ( talk) 03:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the entire section referencing the Warlock class in the popular game as a result of its apparent and juvenile bias and lack of relevance to the subject.
Has there ever been any noting in folklore/pop cult that warlocks are sons of a witch? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.180.33.178 ( talk) 08:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
section "In Popular Culture":
Where does this come from? Copyright violation? OR? -- megA ( talk) 09:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following:
The edit was made in good faith, but it lacks any sources, has issues with POV, and repeats some things covered sufficiently elsewhere in the article. Feel free to get some information about your research materials together and try again. -- Kineticman ( talk) 19:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This site: [ Saudi] talks about a warlock sent to death for witchcraft in Saudi Arabia. Agre22 ( talk) 12:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC)agre22
I have recently reverted, again, a multitude of revision by User:Japheth the Warlock. At least one of my reasons is because this user has chosen to "improve a link" by linking to an old version of a an article that no longer exists. If warlock, as a world of warcraft class/whatever, was not notable enough to merit its own article, we should not be linking to an old version.-- Vidkun ( talk) 13:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Seriously, half of this page seems like it was written by a kid. It's filled with what appears to be nothing more than the writers own personal beliefs and fantasies (or possibly reference to a game?) accompanied by a poor grasp of written english and multiple typos.
Here's an example: "Warlocks are fictional charachter now in book and movies. Long ago did they exist? Who knows to tell the story. They did exist back them but were all killed off to the witch hunt that happened centuries ago. They are extinct but who knows. Some may live today in secrete hiding from the world waiting to get their revenge. They are demons here. They have been chose great power granted from the Gods."
This page is in need of serious revision. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
60.229.14.239 (
talk)
21:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Edited and rolled back (I think). I havn't really messed with wiki entries before but everything seeems back up to scratch and making sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.229.38.104 ( talk) 06:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I've been a neopagan since childhood, and I've never heard of this. Source? Or is it someone's fantasy?
************************************
-- Warlock -- also written as warluck.
I, Daniel, not a follower of any religion, occult movement etc. i.e not a member of anything except humanity, have always regarded a warlock as an oath breaker. I have now found supporting evidence in: The Merriam Dictionary. (Copyright 1879 by G & C Merriam, Copyright 1884 and 1890 by G & C Merriam & Co, Copyright 1900 by G & C Merriam Co.)
Warlock, n
1. OE. varloghe. a deceiver, a name for the Devil.
2. AS. wǣrloga. a belier or breaker of his agreement, word, or pledge.
3. A male witch; a wizard; a sprite; an imp.
items 1 & 2 in my opinion thus point to Oath Breaker.
Warlock, a. Of or pertaining to a warlock or warlocks; impish.
This seems to make all arguments correct but if I were a wizard, or a male witch or a person practicing healing or the "white arts" I surely would not refer to myself as a warlock and would feel debased to be called one.
41.240.207.90 (
talk) 18:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
41.240.207.90 (
talk)
18:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
****************************************
Most certainly someones fantasy.Remember that wicca is a new religion founded with purposes similar to those of Scientology and The Church of Satan. Some (former) members of OTO seemed very fond of making their own religions to get as much money as they could. And they created whole new industries. What I'm trying to say is that all of wicca is someones fantasy. 168.243.218.6 05:11, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I cut out what I could identify as purely and entirely wrong, esp. some speculation about Anglo-Saxon apostacy making dubious reference to the chronicles.
In the case of the soi dissant "Warlock rite," I've tried to make it plain that at least one Neo-pagan believes in this, but also that this doesn't mean that most or even many have ever heard of itn (I certainly haven't, and as I was trained, it's about as possible to "lock" someone's access to the "energies" of magic as it is to lock someone's ability to think).
From what I've read in this talk page no one has mentioned anything about the meaning of warlock in latin. Since latin is the root for most languages i thought i might add that to this page. Warlock in latin means magus a magic user or sorcerer. The plural being Maji. Drgnkngxander26 ( talk) 14:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC) [1]
References
I'm preparing to start removing some (most) of the "In popular culture" section. This just seems to be a runaway listing of trivia. I propose that we only mention pop-culture "warlocks" if these instances have had a significant role in shaping or changing conceptions of what a warlock is.
As a slightly exaggerated analogy, trees are depicted in a variety of pop-culture settings, but the Tree article doesn't list these, because they haven't really significantly changed the popular concept of "tree". However the mathematical concept of a tree as a kind of graph is mentioned, because this introduces a new meaning to the term, as used by a significant group of people.
For comparison, have a look at Witchcraft#Witches in popular culture. Even that's starting to need a bit of clean-up, but it's closer to what I'd like to see here: a (roughly) chronologically based sketch of the development of a concept.
Any comments before I start deleting? Fuzzypeg ★ 04:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Right. Done and dusted. Any details anyone wants to add about, say, warlocks in Warcraft, do it in the Warlock (World of Warcraft) article. Or for warlocks in Charmed, do it in the Charmed article. Fuzzypeg ★ 01:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'm answering your edits. You are very young and using a television show to guess what passes for the influence of the term 'warlock' in popular culture. Most of the world's population hasn't seen 'Charmed' and are used to reading books. For us, the character of Hugo Gifford in Mollie Hunter's popular children's novel, 'Thomas and the Warlock' presents the quintessential notion of a warlock as a male sorceror in league with the devil. There is no notion of this in 'Charmed.' Your edits of the popular culture section are rather insulting to the adult and intelligent readers of Wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by HippoOwl ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 25 June 2008
I think Charlie Sheen should been added in a list of notable warlocks. He is a self confessed warlock, has played the character of warlock in the short film Operation Greyhound and is widely referred to as a Warlock in the media and can be cited as such from multiple sources.
I think it is justified that anyone who reverts such an edit justify doing so. This falls outside the excuse of correcting vandalism.
Considering the ongoing and confusing debate regarding the term Warlock, I think it would help tremendously to have links to actual sources of early usage, rather than just the the etymological references stating that the term was used at a particular point. As much as I have persued such references, I continue to come up short via the internet. Has anyone tracked down the references of the actual historical instances of use? If not, where would one begin to research an actual catalogued bibliography? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.90.85.22 ( talk) 10:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Presumably this is in reference to a film, TV, or video game character, as that is most certainly not what is meant when one refers to a 'warlock' without any other context. In that case, it is imperative to make clear that you are talking about a fictional character, explain which fictional universe it comes from, and use a different page name (this, in my view, is one of the few places where subpages make sense). -- Robert Merkel
Alot of people don't care about this; to them warlock means a term for a powerful sorcerer.
Or a real cool one.
-Izaak
Somebody manually created this footnote, but I see no indication of where it is supposed to apply. Moving it here so perhaps somebody can fix it... Frater Xyzzy 21:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The TV & Movies section lists the 1959 film "Warlock". This is a Western, set in a town of that name, and has no other connection to the subject of the article. Do people think that should be mentioned om the page, or should the reference be removed altogether? Rojomoke 12:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Kitmarlowe, I've already contacted you on your talk page explaining why I disagree with your disparaging comments about Wicca and Wiccans, and you haven't chosen to reply or explain your point of view, instead simply adding back some of the disputed statements. You're not improving this article (or the other articles in which you're doing similar things), because you're giving them a strong tone of bias, and you're introducing flakey assertions which probably aren't true.
Take for example your suggestion that Wiccans probably got the "oath-breaker" usage from modern television shows like The Craft and Charmed. That is original research, meaning that is your own opinion, rather than that of any reliable source you've read. I doubt you will find any decent source making this claim, since the widespread usage of this term in Wiccan context goes back at least 35 years. When I was initiated into Wicca in 1997, shortly after that file "The Craft" kicked off the pop-Wicca movement, the word was already in common usage. Traditional Wiccans tend to be rather horrified by "Charmed", "The Craft", "Buffy" etc; I for one have never watched any of these, apart from a couple of early episodes of Charmed. A couple of my teachers (who have never watched any of these shows) can attest to the word's use 35 years ago. It may be that this usage is a modern innovation dating from the 50s or 60s; that's anyone's guess, but it certainly predates pop Wicca.
Now I wouldn't dream of putting any of this information into the article, since it's not based on published sources; however neither should you dream of putting your own unsupported and unsupportable assertions in Wikipedia. Furthermore, these assertions don't seem to be made in the interests of historical accuracy or balanced presentation; instead they seem to be intended as vehicles for denigrating Wicca in comparison to "traditional witchcraft". Please stop this. Remember that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and one of its fundamental principles is that articles should take a neutral point of view. If you have some historical knowledge, as you seem to, there are much more useful and constructive ways that you can improve the encyclopedia, and promote your preferred variety of witchcraft (such as by improving the associated articles). You can even make informed criticisms of Wicca, and they will be welcomed by the community here, as long as they're actually based on real research, rather than just your own prejudice. Wikipedia is much more rewarding when you start making really decent edits (rather than poorly thought-out edits that will be quickly reverted). You then start adding to human knowledge. Have fun. Fuzzypeg ☻ 21:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The entire section "warlock in games" has ONE reference. The section is a waste of space, as those uses are not notable.-- Vidkun 14:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
User:KitMarlowe2 is repeatedly adding comments criticising Wiccan use of the term "warlock". Does anyone else think his edits are inappropriate? I see this as an issue of WP:NPOV. I'm not even bothered whether Wicca gets mentioned in this article or not, but someone put the information here, so it may as well be correct and well-written. I've added some verification for the use of the term (The Witches' Voice seems reasonable, and KitMarlowe was clamouring for a reference); I haven't bothered to find verification for the history of that usage though. If anyone wants to put the work in and find some sources regarding this history, that would be great; in the meantime KitMarlowe's unfounded suggestions that we got it off the telly seem a bit insulting. Anyone want to add their moral support here? Fuzzypeg ☻ 20:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the etymology:
Given all this, I think it's very reasonable to remove the mention of "varðlokkur" as a possible etymology, and the (uncited) "highly speculative" etymology of it as "man of the logs". Anyone opposed? -- Miskwito 08:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, we've been through this ad nauseum when you were calling yourself KitMarlowe2. If you want to say that "warlock" originally only meant "to bind" in a Wiccan context, then provide evidence. If you want to say that the "oath-breaker" usage is a later development, then provide evidence. If you want to say that Wiccan usage of the term is based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, then provide evidence. It makes no difference whether you're Paul Huson or Winston Churchill; you're making unsupported assertions about a tradition that you're clearly quite ignorant of. And if your intention is just to bag Wicca, then please go elsewhere. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The introduction seems to imply that there really was such a thing as a warlock who could fly on a broomstick... Although not blatant, the implication needs to be taken out of the context of the paragraph, and present that this is, or may be a fantastical representation of the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.172.44 ( talk) 11:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I cut out some vandalism in the entymology section referring to warlock's as "broken." This was a reference to the World of Warcraft character class. --Joel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.87.128 ( talk) 03:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the entire section referencing the Warlock class in the popular game as a result of its apparent and juvenile bias and lack of relevance to the subject.
Has there ever been any noting in folklore/pop cult that warlocks are sons of a witch? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.180.33.178 ( talk) 08:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
section "In Popular Culture":
Where does this come from? Copyright violation? OR? -- megA ( talk) 09:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following:
The edit was made in good faith, but it lacks any sources, has issues with POV, and repeats some things covered sufficiently elsewhere in the article. Feel free to get some information about your research materials together and try again. -- Kineticman ( talk) 19:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This site: [ Saudi] talks about a warlock sent to death for witchcraft in Saudi Arabia. Agre22 ( talk) 12:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC)agre22
I have recently reverted, again, a multitude of revision by User:Japheth the Warlock. At least one of my reasons is because this user has chosen to "improve a link" by linking to an old version of a an article that no longer exists. If warlock, as a world of warcraft class/whatever, was not notable enough to merit its own article, we should not be linking to an old version.-- Vidkun ( talk) 13:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Seriously, half of this page seems like it was written by a kid. It's filled with what appears to be nothing more than the writers own personal beliefs and fantasies (or possibly reference to a game?) accompanied by a poor grasp of written english and multiple typos.
Here's an example: "Warlocks are fictional charachter now in book and movies. Long ago did they exist? Who knows to tell the story. They did exist back them but were all killed off to the witch hunt that happened centuries ago. They are extinct but who knows. Some may live today in secrete hiding from the world waiting to get their revenge. They are demons here. They have been chose great power granted from the Gods."
This page is in need of serious revision. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
60.229.14.239 (
talk)
21:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Edited and rolled back (I think). I havn't really messed with wiki entries before but everything seeems back up to scratch and making sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.229.38.104 ( talk) 06:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I've been a neopagan since childhood, and I've never heard of this. Source? Or is it someone's fantasy?
************************************
-- Warlock -- also written as warluck.
I, Daniel, not a follower of any religion, occult movement etc. i.e not a member of anything except humanity, have always regarded a warlock as an oath breaker. I have now found supporting evidence in: The Merriam Dictionary. (Copyright 1879 by G & C Merriam, Copyright 1884 and 1890 by G & C Merriam & Co, Copyright 1900 by G & C Merriam Co.)
Warlock, n
1. OE. varloghe. a deceiver, a name for the Devil.
2. AS. wǣrloga. a belier or breaker of his agreement, word, or pledge.
3. A male witch; a wizard; a sprite; an imp.
items 1 & 2 in my opinion thus point to Oath Breaker.
Warlock, a. Of or pertaining to a warlock or warlocks; impish.
This seems to make all arguments correct but if I were a wizard, or a male witch or a person practicing healing or the "white arts" I surely would not refer to myself as a warlock and would feel debased to be called one.
41.240.207.90 (
talk) 18:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
41.240.207.90 (
talk)
18:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
****************************************
Most certainly someones fantasy.Remember that wicca is a new religion founded with purposes similar to those of Scientology and The Church of Satan. Some (former) members of OTO seemed very fond of making their own religions to get as much money as they could. And they created whole new industries. What I'm trying to say is that all of wicca is someones fantasy. 168.243.218.6 05:11, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I cut out what I could identify as purely and entirely wrong, esp. some speculation about Anglo-Saxon apostacy making dubious reference to the chronicles.
In the case of the soi dissant "Warlock rite," I've tried to make it plain that at least one Neo-pagan believes in this, but also that this doesn't mean that most or even many have ever heard of itn (I certainly haven't, and as I was trained, it's about as possible to "lock" someone's access to the "energies" of magic as it is to lock someone's ability to think).
From what I've read in this talk page no one has mentioned anything about the meaning of warlock in latin. Since latin is the root for most languages i thought i might add that to this page. Warlock in latin means magus a magic user or sorcerer. The plural being Maji. Drgnkngxander26 ( talk) 14:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC) [1]
References
I'm preparing to start removing some (most) of the "In popular culture" section. This just seems to be a runaway listing of trivia. I propose that we only mention pop-culture "warlocks" if these instances have had a significant role in shaping or changing conceptions of what a warlock is.
As a slightly exaggerated analogy, trees are depicted in a variety of pop-culture settings, but the Tree article doesn't list these, because they haven't really significantly changed the popular concept of "tree". However the mathematical concept of a tree as a kind of graph is mentioned, because this introduces a new meaning to the term, as used by a significant group of people.
For comparison, have a look at Witchcraft#Witches in popular culture. Even that's starting to need a bit of clean-up, but it's closer to what I'd like to see here: a (roughly) chronologically based sketch of the development of a concept.
Any comments before I start deleting? Fuzzypeg ★ 04:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Right. Done and dusted. Any details anyone wants to add about, say, warlocks in Warcraft, do it in the Warlock (World of Warcraft) article. Or for warlocks in Charmed, do it in the Charmed article. Fuzzypeg ★ 01:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'm answering your edits. You are very young and using a television show to guess what passes for the influence of the term 'warlock' in popular culture. Most of the world's population hasn't seen 'Charmed' and are used to reading books. For us, the character of Hugo Gifford in Mollie Hunter's popular children's novel, 'Thomas and the Warlock' presents the quintessential notion of a warlock as a male sorceror in league with the devil. There is no notion of this in 'Charmed.' Your edits of the popular culture section are rather insulting to the adult and intelligent readers of Wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by HippoOwl ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 25 June 2008
I think Charlie Sheen should been added in a list of notable warlocks. He is a self confessed warlock, has played the character of warlock in the short film Operation Greyhound and is widely referred to as a Warlock in the media and can be cited as such from multiple sources.
I think it is justified that anyone who reverts such an edit justify doing so. This falls outside the excuse of correcting vandalism.
Considering the ongoing and confusing debate regarding the term Warlock, I think it would help tremendously to have links to actual sources of early usage, rather than just the the etymological references stating that the term was used at a particular point. As much as I have persued such references, I continue to come up short via the internet. Has anyone tracked down the references of the actual historical instances of use? If not, where would one begin to research an actual catalogued bibliography? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.90.85.22 ( talk) 10:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)