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The current version
[1] of the article states that:
The word According to suggests that there are other opinions. There are not. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
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copy edit}}
The current version [2] of the article states that:
That is poor English. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I have created a draft RfC at User:Alexh19740110/Draft_RfC_Bdow and I would like editors to agree on the wording, sources, and so on & then we'll post it here as a RfC. Perhaps discussion related to getting the RfC text right should go at the Draft_RfC_Bdow discussion page. Alex Harvey ( talk) 07:58, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
William Skuban replied today with a brief apology that he doesn't know why there is a discrepancy in the dates. He suggests Farcau might know why. On Keysanger's work above, I don't agree that it adds nothing new - at a minimum it shows that another historian without any reason to be biased believes that the March 1 decree was a declaration of war. It seems we are getting closer to understanding the proliferation of dates (and actually it doesn't seem to have anything to do with telegraph lines after all). As far as settling the disagreement, though, I tend to agree that 16 or 17 sources saying the same thing doesn't make that much difference. What might make a difference, though, would be if someone was able to dig out the "State Papers" referred to in Keysanger's German source. Perhaps I'll see if Farcau is contactable. Alex Harvey ( talk) 07:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
On March 1, Bolivia issued a declaration of war on Chile and prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". Then on March 14, Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile. Bolivia then called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis. Chile, meanwhile, called on Peru to remain neutral. Peru refused.
I see that we don't have the same view interpretation of the Wikiedia rules and want to explain my view of.
Date | Act |
---|---|
27 February 1879: | Bolivia issued a issued a war manifesto against Chile |
1. March 1879: | Daza issued the 1 March decree with the declaration of war in La Paz ( See Spanish text in page 65) |
14. March 1879: | Bolivia's Foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile from Lima, based on the 1. March decree. |
18. March 1879: | The Chilean state newspaper Diario Oficial publishes in Santiago de Chile Serapio Reyes's announcement from 14. February in Lima |
As expected for a events that were not recorded in writing and only seldom analysed by the histography, the historians can use different names for the same event or different events for the same fact. Therefore we have that some historian consider the 1. March text, others take in account the 14. March and so on.
Alex, if you read carefully the sources, you will note that every event of this timeline is supported by at least one source and, very important, it is factually not contradicted by the other sources. "factually" means that the names may be inapropiate but the fact and the dates don't contradict the timeline.
Please, take a look to the lede of the current Wikipedia version of the Chilean Declaration of Independence.
The Chilean Declaration of Independence is a document declaring the independence of Chile from the Spanish Empire. It was drafted in January 1818 and approved by Supreme Director Bernardo O'Higgins on February 12, 1818 at Talca, despite being dated in Concepción on January 1, 1818. [1] [2] The ceremony of independence was performed on February 12, 1818, the first anniversary of the Battle of Chacabuco.
The original document, displaying manuscript comments by O'Higgins, was damaged at the Palace of the Real Audiencia of Chile. [3] In 1832, under President José Joaquín Prieto, a new copy was sent to Peru to be signed by O'Higgins, and later by his former ministers, Miguel Zañartu, Hipólito Villegas and José Ignacio Zenteno, who were still living in Chile. [1] This copy was kept at the Palacio de La Moneda until the 1973 Chilean coup d'état, when it was destroyed during the fighting. [4]
We have a draft from January 1818, approved 12. February 1818, back dated to January 1. 1818 and 1832 was made a new copy of the document. Four documents with the same name, different circumtances and different content. And this lede doesn't consider the Act of 18 September 1810, that I personally hold for the actually Declaration of Independence.
Not enough?. Here are events that despite some uncertainty in the date or circumtances are accepted as facts by the history:
--Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 20:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I have now written to Bruce Farcau and explained this dilemma to him. Hopefully he might respond with more on what happened on March 14. Alex Harvey ( talk) 08:15, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
@Keysanger, I wouldn't say that "apparently" is ambiguous but it can communicate a lack of certainty. Here, Sater probably intends meaning (3) given in our wiktionary: according to what the speaker has read or been told. To me, it suggests that Sater previously believed that the March 1 decree was a formal declaration of war, and recently has learnt otherwise. It is interesting, to be sure, that he is a leading expert on the subject and he expresses uncertainty. It raises the question, how closely has even Sater studied this?
As far as using Wikipedia's voice to assert a March 1 declaration of war goes, I think you would have better luck arguing that March 14 is DoW; it seems the more reliable sources tend to that date or March 18.
Regarding what you wrote at my talk page I am afraid I can't believe that "announced on March 18" means "filed separately" - unless you have evidence from elsewhere of something being "filed" on March 18?
By the way, I just had another idea for a compromise wording. What if we said that on March 14 it was "formally announced that a state of war existed with Chile"? Alex Harvey ( talk) 13:27, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
News of the Chilean invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone its mention until the end of ongoing carnival festitivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians about the invasion and calling for patriotic support. Later, on March 1, he issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". Chile interpreted the decree as a declaration of war, which historians and diplomats since then have considered a controversial decision as nowhere in the decree is war actually declared. Then, on March 14, Bolivia formally announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile; and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Hi Alex,
in your opinion, what means "which he announced on 18 March"? What means "which" in this sentence?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Farcau has responded and said that from his experience in the Foreign Service, a declaration of war is usually dated from when it is communicated to the diplomatic community, and that's why he chose March 14. He says Sater is using March 18 because that's when Chile acknowledged it. February 27 is when the legislature authorised the declaration of war (=decree ?) and he feels that is probably an unimportant detail due to the fact that Daza was a dictator and didn't technically need legislative authorisation. I have pressed him for an opinion of the opposite view that Bolivia didn't declare war and asked for permission to reproduce the correspondence. Alex Harvey ( talk) 15:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Given that Farcau has conceded that he doesn't remember all the finer details and no longer has access to the research materials I don't wish to press him with further questions. I believe it is quite clear that he has vouched for his own wording that Bolivia formally declared war on March 14. Moreover he has resolved the issue of discrepancy of dates and I now see that nearly all of Keysanger's sources do support a wording that Bolivia declared war on March 14.
We could raise an RFC still I suppose but I am pretty sure it will simply bring in more support for the wording "Bolivia declared war". Alex Harvey ( talk) 02:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
News of the Chilean military invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone its mention until the end of ongoing carnival festitivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians about the invasion and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized the president to make a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Hilarión Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". Finally, on March 14, Bolivia formally announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that Chile's aggression forced a state of war to exist between both nations; and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion of Bolivia's coast constituted a casus foederis.
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, Bolivia announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that a state of war now existed between both nations. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
What if we go with this proposal here and then assert that on April 5 Chile reciprocated and declared war? That way we can avoid the dreaded words "Bolivia declared war" but we can also make it clear - as consistent with expert opinion - that Chile's April 5 declaration of war was a reciprocation of Bolivia's March 14 declaration. Would that satisfy Keysanger and could Marshal et al. live with that? Alex Harvey ( talk) 14:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
On March 1 1879 Bolivia's dictator Daza declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
According to historian Bruce Farcau, on February 27 Bolivian legislature issued an authorization for a declaration of war. On March 1, Daza issued a declaration of war in La Paz. Then, on March 14 Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced in Lima to representatives of foreign powers that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration of war was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5.
On March 1 1879 Bolivia's dictator Daza declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
On March 1, Daza issued a declaration of war in La Paz. Then, on March 14 Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced in Lima to representatives of foreign powers that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5.
So, Alex took the trouble to talk to Farcau for no reason. I have conceded to Bolivia announcing a state of war on March 14 (even wikilinked the DoW article on "state of war"), which is what Farcau explained, and yet you keep pushing your March 1st position. I honestly don't understand you at all.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 20:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
On March 14 1879 Bolivia declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
On March 14 the Bolivian special plenipotentiary in Peru, foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile, dated March 1 by circular note, to the diplomatic Corps accredited to Lima and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5. Peru reciprocated on 6. April
Hi Alex,
Would you please explain your claim?. My proposal includes one mention of the Bdow in the lede and one mention of the Bdow in the "crisis" section. And that is so much as the Chilean dow is mentioned in the lede and in the section "crisis". Would you be so kind to write a proposal that you can support and that mention the Bolivian declaration of war and don't hide it?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 13:15, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
On March 14 the Bolivian special plenipotentiary in Peru, foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile, dated March 1 by circular note, to the diplomatic Corps accredited to Lima and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5. Peru reciprocated on 6. April
On March 14 1879 Bolivia declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
On March 14 the Bolivian special plenipotentiary in Peru, foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile, dated March 1 by circular note, to the diplomatic Corps accredited to Lima and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
On March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5. Peru reciprocated on 6. April 1879.
Here is an obvious alternative to the last proposal I made if we must use the words "declared war":
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he postponed mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to Bruce Farcau, the same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, Bolivia declared war in an announcement of the March 1 decree to representatives of foreign powers in Lima. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Alex Harvey ( talk) 12:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, in a meeting with foreign powers in Lima, Bolivia announced a state of war with Chile. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Keysanger, your second paragraph would replace the entire section "Peruvian mediation". The RFC will be about "should the article say 'Bolivia declared war' or 'Bolivia announced that a state of war now existed'. I would like to change my bolded sentence above to On March 14, Bolivia declared war in an announcement to representatives of foreign powers in Lima. If you are happy with that suggestion, I will start a new thread below and raise the RFC. Alex Harvey ( talk) 11:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is my simpler RFC draft. We would then line up Keysanger's 17 sources against Marshal's 4 underneath. Is everyone happy with this? Alex Harvey ( talk) 12:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
MarshalN2's list of sources states that there was "not a formal declaration of war". But the question is wheter the article should say " Bolivia announced that a state of war now existed with Chile".
Farcau says that to declare a state of war is that same as to declare a war, but MarshalN2 says it is not a declaration of war. Do you understand?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 16:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
I think it's high time for the RfC. Let's other editors say a word.
MarshalN20's undecidedness has to do with the difficulties of his undertaking.
He wants actually say that there wasn't a Bolivian Declaration of War at all. But, there is no evidence supporting his theory. 4 out of 5 of his sources are biased Peruvian or Bolivian unknown historians trying to push their nacionalistic POV by hook or by crook. Richard Gibbs statement was given on 12 March 1879, that is before the announcement on 14 March.
In order to evade this hard facts, he seems to be ready to accept the "declare state of war" option and hopes then, by means of semantics and sophisms, to transform the "declare state of war" in a "it is not a Declaration of War" as intended already ( Bolivia never actually word-by-word "declare war").
Probably, he knows that it will not work and therefore he is unsteady. What can we do to help MarshalN20?. Let's get it over with!. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 12:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
The best solution to this discussion remains that of having everyone be happy with the product. The RfC will, ultimately, arbitrarily determine one point or the other. For the sake of whatever may be left of "Good Faith" in this discussion, I propose we combine both competing concepts into one. The following is my attempt at such a combination:
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, Bolivian foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz essentially declared war through an announcement to foreign representatives in Lima of Bolivia's state of war with Chile. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Is this an agreement for all parties?-- MarshalN20 | Talk 21:25, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I am a professor of Latin American history at Texas A&M University. "MarshalN20" asked me to post up my opinion on the subject. If you don't mind, I would like to keep my status as anonymous. I have studied and taught the "War of the Pacific" (I prefer the name "Saltpeter War") in my course curriculum at the university. Something which could possibly help you resolve this matter is understanding the different perspectives in the conflict. The government of Chile attributed Hilarion Daza's decree of March 1st as a declaration of war, which is what they later published in Santiago on March 18. That is their view on the subject, and it should be mentioned in the article per se. Chile then published their opinion on circular notes, and effectively managed to "manipulate" (If you don't mind the word) the Western world's opinion in favor of their interpretation. However, a dissenting opinion has always existed. I provided "MarshalN20" with the Richard Gibbs source. Gibbs was ambassador to Peru during these years, and is an excellent first-hand source of the conflict. As I suppose you know by now, Gibbs explained to the US government that Bolivia's March 1st decree was not a declaration of war. Other sources exist which also provide this opinion (I think some have been provided already). Bruce Farcau and William Sater have been the most prominent modern American historians to also identify the March 1st decree as a "no declaration of war", but Italian Caivano also had this opinion way back in the day. Yes, it was a violent decree that deeply hurt Chile's national pride (Chile felt insulted that Bolivia, a "backwards nation" would dare kick out Chilean citizens); but it was not a declaration of war (I would not even consider it "informal"). Now to March 14. Peru had requested Bolivia to keep quiet while Peruvian mediators worked out the issue, and Bolivia "promised" (probably had their fingers crossed) that it would not make noise. Yet, on March 14 the Bolivian representative in Peru made an announcement to the diplomatic body in Lima (which included America, France, England), in which they formally announced the existence of a state of war with Chile. Announcing = declaring, they are both synonyms. The difference is, yet again, in the perspective given the historical context. Remember that Bolivia saw itself as the "victim" (arguably, they were just as guilty of the situation; Peru seems to be the only one that actually wanted peace, but even that's arguable), and Chile as the "aggressor". Farcau attributes this as a declaration of war, and up to a certain point he is right. Why? Because publicly "announcing a state of war" has, historically speaking, always been the "substitute" to declaring war when the nation making the announcement feels as the victim. Two examples: When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, the United States consequently announced a state of war with Japan. A little closer to this conflict, the Chaco War, Paraguay felt that Bolivia was invading its territory, so they also announced the existence of a state of war with Bolivia. In this Saltpeter War case, I believe that the best solution is to use the exact wording presented by the Bolivians (In any case, it makes little difference, but it provides a "correct" context of the situation). Anyone who reads that "Bolivia announced the existence of a state of war" is going to know what it means. Chile did not interpret this March 14 announcement as a declaration of war (remember that they took the March 1st decree for that). The questions you may ask: Why did Bolivia do it? They wanted to prevent Chile from obtaining war materials. Did it work? No; nobody really took Bolivia seriously. Why is it important? This is when Bolivia publicly asked Peru to honor their alliance; basically, it "killed" the Peruvian diplomatic mission in Chile. Suspicions existed in Chile that Peru and Bolivia had an alliance, but the public did not know for certain until Bolivia admitted it (The Chilean government already knew about it, of course). Later Chile published the March 1 decree in Santiago on March 18, and that further angered Chileans. It all adds up to Chile's final demand (an "ultimatum" if you want) on Peru to step away from the matter ("declare its neutrality"), and Peru (for whatever foolish reason) responded that they would let their Congress decide both proposals (honor the alliance or accept Chile's demand for neutrality). Then you have the April 5 declarations of war (Chile made 2 separate declarations, one for Peru and another for Bolivia), and the start of the blockades and full-scale campaigns. War, of course, started when Chilean troops took Antofagasta; but afterwards there was this "war of words" period which ended up complicating the situation more than helping resolve it. This may be too long, but I hope it helps resolve your problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.173.221 ( talk) 15:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, we are not obligated to satisfy Keysanger's requirements about the content of the article, because no one can own it. All of us agree that the statement "Bolivia announced a state of war" is not only clear, but also a well-proven and documented fact. As everyone here, Keysanger must accept the general consensus about this issue. Greetings Cloudaoc ( talk) 21:58, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
I posted a to WP:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#IP_editor_as_reliable_source_or_professional_opinion a question about the posibility of consider the contribution of the IP editor as reliable source or professional opinion.
I want to say clear and loud that I don't question the person of the editor or his contribution but its use as deciding voice in the discussion.
Please, give the board a little time to comment my question. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 16:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
The noticeboard considers unanimously that only published works can be considered as reliable source, professional or diciding opinion. The opinion of the IP editor is very valuable as mine and your but it hasn't the weight of Sater, Farcau, Lang, or Besadre's opinion. They are professional, experts and their opinion is deciding over the issue. All of them say that THERE WAS A BOLIVIAN DECLARATION OF WAR (please excuse my scream) and that is the mainstream according to the WP rules and the wording of the article must be in line with this fact of histography.
I presented you my proposal :"Bolivia declared war on Chile". We can add a reference (footnote) and tell them interested reader that there are a minority view in Peru and Bolivia, etc, etc. Such a solution would spare us the long way through the RfC, it would last longer and stable and would be WP:V and WP:NPOV rules conform. Alex, MarshalN20, what do you think about?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 20:39, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Keysanger, here is the situation so far:
MarshalN20
Cloudaoc
165.91.173.221 "professor"
Tagishsimon
Marco polo
90.197.66.202
Alex Harvey
Keysanger
Do you want to raise an RFC? If so, I'll do it now. Alex Harvey ( talk) 03:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Marshal, I note that Tagishsimon made an important observation: I see that "that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile", so that appears to be the declaration of war concern covered to any reasonable level of satisfaction. I agree with this statement, although I am not entirely comfortable with attributing the assertion to Farcau, which raises doubt in the reader as to the certainty of the assertion. Can you ask the professor if he knows anything more about the February 27 act of legislature? Farcau said he couldn't remember any more than what was in his book. Alex Harvey ( talk) 06:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
22 sources using "Bolivia declared war" and 7 sources using "proclaim/declare/advise state of war"
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My biggest problem with your proposal is the wording "declared war" seems irreducibly to be an interpretation of what happend. In reality, Bolivia did announce that a "state of war" existed. They definitely stated that they believed this state of war had existed since Chile invaded their coastline. You don't deny this, right? So telling the reader simply that "Bolivia declared war" seems to want to tell the reader to believe something other than what I have come to realise after the course of this discussion. I don't see how that's a good thing. I think the reader deserves to know the truth. It's a minor point, of course, and the reader is free to consider our references, but I still think Marshal's proposal better tells the truth of what happened. NOTE: he is NOT claiming that Bolivia did not declare war. Nothing in Marshal's sources contradicts anything in your own sources - and remember - I got this wording from one of your own sources.
Keysanger, it is completely up to you. If you wish to press on you can. But you need to accept that if 7 editors have said that you are wrong, you need to find quite a few others before we can realistically agree to update the text in accordance with your suggestion. If you are determined to press on, then you have no choice but to raise an RFC. Alex Harvey ( talk) 13:33, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
I wonder of your posting. You make it so easy to continue the discussion because you see the failure in your rationale but you persist in the error.
You say It is a profesional opinion.
The RS noticeboard say unanimously No, it isn't a professional opinion.
You say My biggest problem with your proposal is the wording "declared war" seems irreducibly to be an interpretation of what happend.
Yes, it is an interpretation. It is the interpretation of the text given by the overwhelming majority of the historians. And that is Wikipedia. I ask you: Is your "announced ..." an interpretation?
You say In reality, Bolivia did announce that a "state of war" existed. They definitely stated that they believed this state of war had existed since Chile invaded their coastline. You don't deny this, right?
I read the text of the BDOW and my personal opinion is that Bolivia declared the war on Chile. You read the text of the BDOW and your personal opinion is that it is a 1/2*BDOW. That could be the end of the Wikipedia because that will occur in almost every article. Lets go back two steps and read the WP rules: Verificability. According to the English Wikipedia rules editors are not allowed to interprete primary sources. Only interpretations of published works are accepted. Now we get the right way. We look in the public library and find 4 sources (you say, I suspect it) stating that 0 or 1/2 BDOW. But we find 31 sources stating a BDOW. I ask you Which one is the right next step?. To say it is a 0 or a 1/2 BDOW?. or to say that it was a BDOW? I ask you, according to the WP rules, is it allowed to you use Wikipedia to publish YOUR interpretation of a primary source?
You say I think the reader deserves to know the truth.
I cite my page: User:Keysanger
Huye, Adso, de los profetas y de los que están dispuestos a morir por la verdad, porque suelen provocar también la muerte de muchos otros, a menudo antes que la propia, y a veces en lugar de la propia.
— Umberto Eco, El nombre de la rosa, Séptimo día, noche
I ask you: Are you the only owner of the truth?
You say NOTE: he [MarshalN20] is NOT claiming that Bolivia did not declare war.
He [MarshalN20] say In reality, I was hoping that the professor would agree with me in that Bolivia did not declare war in any way or form.
Do you understand me why I have no choice but to continue. It is too simple. Or can you answer my questions?
--Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Now you are talking about a "1/2 DoW". I have no idea what that means. If you really think that "announcing a state of war" is only 1/2 a DoW then it follows that you also must believe that Daza's DoW was in reality only 1/2 a DoW. I think that's nonsense, but you said it.
But let's forget about this. I know you are not going to change your mind. The question needs to be, at what point will you accept there is a consensus against your position? Suppose we raise an RFC and three more editors support Marshal's position. Do we agree that at that point you will drop the issue? And if say 1 or 2 support you then what? It will then be 7 against 3, although I would withdraw my opinion. Still 6 against 3. I want to understand how you think this is going to end. Alex Harvey ( talk) 15:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
::I see three views of the issue, I call them the 1 (KS), the 1/2(AL) and the 0(MS) BDOW, but you don't. Do you and M20 accept that that there was a full BDOW?
Cambalechero: "I think that Keysanger is systematically pushing War of the Pacific things in favour of Chile [...]"
Keysanger: "I can accept any of three dates: 1. 14. and 18 March. It is no problem for me."
Keysanger: "NOTE: he [MarshalN20] is NOT claiming that Bolivia did not declare war."
Yes agree that this discussion has run its course. The important point is we have made a compromise and it has gained the support of 7 (or possibly 8) editors. In Wikipedia, that's about as big a consensus as you'll ever get. Keysanger has said that even if an RFC is raised, he still will not drop the issue unless it goes his way. Accordingly, I agree that there should be no RFC until Keysanger agrees to be bound by the outcome. Alex Harvey ( talk) 00:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
If needed, I will go the way of the RfC and we have to accept the rules of WP. You can try to break the rule of WP:RFC (RfCs are not votes. Discussion controls the outcome; it is not a matter of counting up the number of votes.). I would be very sorry for you if you try to impede it and more for Wikipedia if you success. I still think you are doing a good job and don't believe you want to blow it up.
So, the question is how to resolve the problem. Few months ago I read a book named "Guidance to be unhappy" and one of the hints the author gives to be always unhappy is "be always loyal to yourself". I suppose no one of us want to be unhappy. Lets easy off.
There are three places in the article where the BDOW is mentioned. Lets mention "declaration of war" in Lede and "Peruvian mediation". The reader expects a more accurate description in "Crisis", therefore we write your biased "Announced a state of war". Don't care details like grammer, spelling, or others wordings. They are details and we can delete or improve it.
That would be:
On March 14 1879 Bolivia's dictator Daza declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality. Peru reciprocated on April 6
On March 14 Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced in Lima to representatives of foreign powers that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5.
It is a knotty move for all, specially for me and Wikipedia, but it is fair and not to move would be worse.
--Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Keysanger has apparently "fired" me as "mediator" - so do others wish to proceed here with an RFC? Alex Harvey ( talk) 12:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mr. [MarshalN20],
- I will gladly answer the questions you have for me, and they sure are plenty.
- I was not aware that Bruce Farcau found a document from the Bolivian legislature which allowed a formal declaration of war. I am certain that he would not lie about this matter. Writing "according to such-and-such" is best suited when you are citing a personal opinion. I suggest its removal. A footnote or citation attributing the finding to Bruce would suffice.
- You ask me whether Farcau's finding is relevant or irrelevant. You give me two options, but my honest answer is that the information is neither relevant or irrelevant. Recall that Hilarion Daza took control of Bolivia afer a coup, so any constitutional organization held little control over him. However, he was not a totalitarian monarch, so the constraints existed. That the legislature allowed the declaration of war is more than likely a result of Daza's speech given that same day. Think of it as a popular response to a nationalist rally. It shows that the Bolivian delegates were fully supportive of the conflict, and in that sense holds importance. What is of interest is that, despite having the formal authority to declare war (thereby having the opportunity to justify his actions akin to Pontius Pilate), Daza did not do it. Instead he paraded around with this power until Chile had enough of it.
- Peruvian involvement. Peru and Bolivia signed a mutual defense pact for the sake of their own interests (not because they cared about each other). Both countries already had enough problems elsewhere to worry about each other. Both countries ignored the treaty until Hilarion Daza used it to his advantage. Even then, Peru did what it could to avoid war with Chile and save its own skin. Then you also have Brazil and Argentina. Brazil purposely planted intrigue by informing Chile of the possible Argentinean signing of the treaty. Argentina wanted Bolivia to give up its territorial claims in exchange for their membership; Bolivia did not accept. Peru did not want to be dragged into an Argentinean-led conflict (Peru, unlike Bolivia and Argentina, held no territorial problem with Chile). You can only imagine how complicated this can get and did get in Europe (World War I). What you should understand is that everyone sought to protect their own interests in the matter. If you go back long enough, almost every country in South America could be deemed as being "involved" in the Saltpeter War. However, in a historical analysis of the actual conflict such an assertion would be silly. To make the story short, Peru got "involved" into the actual conflict when it offered to mediate the dispute between Bolivia and Chile. Argentina and Brazil never actually got involved in the conflict despite they were up their arms involved antebellum. Of course, Chile views this distinctly, but mainly as a way to justify their later belligerent actions.
- As to who started the Saltpeter War. The traditional Chilean position is that they were dragged into the conflict, and either Peru or Bolivia are attributed as the culprits. The traditional Peruvian position is that Bolivia dragged them into a war with Chile and later got "abandoned" to their own fate. The traditional Bolivian position is that an expansionist Chile sought to take advantage of weak Bolivia. Which one is right? They are all right, and they are all wrong. If you want to bring about a "neutral" interpretation, you simply have to present the facts as they took place. The Saltepeter War started when Chile occupied Antofagasta.
- Occupation or invasion? Good question. Occupations are understood to exist following an invasion, so the "invasion" step is generally skipped. Neither term is meant to be "aggressive" or "lenient." Historians distinguish the terms when they want to get specific with the sequential order, or want to explain a specific part of the situation.
- I believe this answers all of your questions? I am glad that my contributions are being helpful to your discussion. I am sorry if my decision to remain anonymous is a problem. Writing a book about the War of the Pacific would sure be a grand plan for the future, but currently I am working on something else.
- Take care,
I'll comment more on this email response below. Alex Harvey ( talk) 03:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex, please give me the published opinion of the "professor". As long as he hasn't, it is only the opinion (not the professional opinion) of an IP-editor. If you want to convince me, you can do it, but in line with the WP rules, that is with published works and they still favour me: 21 of out of 31 sources say "declared war" or similar. Yes, there are many terciary sources under them. Then lets take the main researcher about the issue. I think you will agree they are Farcau, Sater, Besadre. (We let the Chileans unmentioned). Please take a look what Sater, Besadre and Farcau say:
You will agree that they write "Daza/Bolivia declared war", "Bolivian declaration of war", "formal declaration of belligerence", "el casus belli con Chile con todos sus efectos y consecuencias". This has been confirmed by Dr. B. Farcau. He is the author of one of two books in English language about the war besides many others and member of the Foreign office. I mean, he is not a unknown historian.
Please, show me your secondary sources of Sater, Farcau and Besadre stating "announced a state of war" and tell me how many they are.
If you want to work in this category the we can quickly reach an agreement. If you want to publish your personal interpretation of the 1. March decree, or to call "professional opinion" a nameless unknown IP-editor, well then lets go to the next instance.
By the way, what is your proposal for lede and Peruvian mediation?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:43, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
@Marshal, out of curiosity how do you translate the following sentence from Besadre: "La declaración boliviana de guerra era (dice el historiador chileno Bulnes) un palo atravesado en las ruedas del carro empujado por Lavalle". Do you agree with Keysanger's translation above? I can't read Spanish of course... Alex Harvey ( talk) 06:57, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Marshal, Cloudaoc, how is this revised proposal, based on the suggestion of the IP editor:
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he postponed mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. The same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile, although it was not immediately announced. On March 1, Daza issued instead a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts," provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia." Then, on March 14, in a meeting with foreign powers in Lima, Bolivia announced that a state of war existed with Chile. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
That I think should keep all reasonable editors - whether from Chile, Peru or Boliva - happy. Alex Harvey ( talk) 02:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Presently we have:
Peru entered the affair in 1879, initially attempting to mediate the dispute, but, when Chile invaded the Bolivian port city of Antofagasta on February 14, 1879, Bolivia sought the activation of its secret "Treaty of Mutual Defense" with Peru. Disputes further escalated until Chile declared war on both countries on April 5, 1879, and the following day Peru activated the alliance.
This is mainly about how Peru got involved - and less about how the war actually started. The actual start of the war - the occupation of Antofagasta - is mentioned only in passing.
I suggest we firstly introduce a sentence explaining Peru's interests prior to the dispute (in fairness) and start a new sentence about how the war started. I suggest:
The war began on February 14, 1879 when Chilean armed forced occupied the port city of Antofagasta. This was in response to Bolivia's threat to confiscate the Chilean Antofagasta Nitrate Company's property. Peru attempted to mediate, but after Bolivia ordered Chileans to leave and announced "a state of war" in Lima, the situation escalated. Bolivia asked Peru to activate the secret "Treaty of Mutual Defense". Finally, on April 5, after Peru refused to remain neutral, Chile declared war on both nations.
Alex Harvey ( talk) 15:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
The war began on February 14, 1879 when Chilean armed forces occupied the port city of Antofagasta, after a Bolivian threat to confiscate Chilean Antofagasta Nitrate Company's property. Peru attempted to mediate, but when Bolivia announced to the diplomatic corp that a state of war existed, the situation deteriorated. Boliva called on Peru to activate the mutual defense pact. Finally, on April 5, after Peru resisted Chile's demand to immediately declare its neutrality, Chile declared war on both nations.
Of course Keysanger have the right to sustain his points at infinitum, but we have to convince him to finally include the text (approved by consensus) in the article? That's my point, if he want a new RfC, perfect, I don't think than he can obtain what he wants, but meanwhile, the article remains unchanged and full of tags ("original research, "no NPoV", etc) put by Keysanger to keep the readers suspicious about its reliability. I don't share your opinion Marshall, Keysanger don't want to hear or follow the reason... Greetings.-- Ian (CloudAOC) | Talk 15:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
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The current version
[1] of the article states that:
The word According to suggests that there are other opinions. There are not. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
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The current version [2] of the article states that:
That is poor English. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I have created a draft RfC at User:Alexh19740110/Draft_RfC_Bdow and I would like editors to agree on the wording, sources, and so on & then we'll post it here as a RfC. Perhaps discussion related to getting the RfC text right should go at the Draft_RfC_Bdow discussion page. Alex Harvey ( talk) 07:58, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
William Skuban replied today with a brief apology that he doesn't know why there is a discrepancy in the dates. He suggests Farcau might know why. On Keysanger's work above, I don't agree that it adds nothing new - at a minimum it shows that another historian without any reason to be biased believes that the March 1 decree was a declaration of war. It seems we are getting closer to understanding the proliferation of dates (and actually it doesn't seem to have anything to do with telegraph lines after all). As far as settling the disagreement, though, I tend to agree that 16 or 17 sources saying the same thing doesn't make that much difference. What might make a difference, though, would be if someone was able to dig out the "State Papers" referred to in Keysanger's German source. Perhaps I'll see if Farcau is contactable. Alex Harvey ( talk) 07:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
On March 1, Bolivia issued a declaration of war on Chile and prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". Then on March 14, Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile. Bolivia then called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis. Chile, meanwhile, called on Peru to remain neutral. Peru refused.
I see that we don't have the same view interpretation of the Wikiedia rules and want to explain my view of.
Date | Act |
---|---|
27 February 1879: | Bolivia issued a issued a war manifesto against Chile |
1. March 1879: | Daza issued the 1 March decree with the declaration of war in La Paz ( See Spanish text in page 65) |
14. March 1879: | Bolivia's Foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile from Lima, based on the 1. March decree. |
18. March 1879: | The Chilean state newspaper Diario Oficial publishes in Santiago de Chile Serapio Reyes's announcement from 14. February in Lima |
As expected for a events that were not recorded in writing and only seldom analysed by the histography, the historians can use different names for the same event or different events for the same fact. Therefore we have that some historian consider the 1. March text, others take in account the 14. March and so on.
Alex, if you read carefully the sources, you will note that every event of this timeline is supported by at least one source and, very important, it is factually not contradicted by the other sources. "factually" means that the names may be inapropiate but the fact and the dates don't contradict the timeline.
Please, take a look to the lede of the current Wikipedia version of the Chilean Declaration of Independence.
The Chilean Declaration of Independence is a document declaring the independence of Chile from the Spanish Empire. It was drafted in January 1818 and approved by Supreme Director Bernardo O'Higgins on February 12, 1818 at Talca, despite being dated in Concepción on January 1, 1818. [1] [2] The ceremony of independence was performed on February 12, 1818, the first anniversary of the Battle of Chacabuco.
The original document, displaying manuscript comments by O'Higgins, was damaged at the Palace of the Real Audiencia of Chile. [3] In 1832, under President José Joaquín Prieto, a new copy was sent to Peru to be signed by O'Higgins, and later by his former ministers, Miguel Zañartu, Hipólito Villegas and José Ignacio Zenteno, who were still living in Chile. [1] This copy was kept at the Palacio de La Moneda until the 1973 Chilean coup d'état, when it was destroyed during the fighting. [4]
We have a draft from January 1818, approved 12. February 1818, back dated to January 1. 1818 and 1832 was made a new copy of the document. Four documents with the same name, different circumtances and different content. And this lede doesn't consider the Act of 18 September 1810, that I personally hold for the actually Declaration of Independence.
Not enough?. Here are events that despite some uncertainty in the date or circumtances are accepted as facts by the history:
--Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 20:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I have now written to Bruce Farcau and explained this dilemma to him. Hopefully he might respond with more on what happened on March 14. Alex Harvey ( talk) 08:15, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
@Keysanger, I wouldn't say that "apparently" is ambiguous but it can communicate a lack of certainty. Here, Sater probably intends meaning (3) given in our wiktionary: according to what the speaker has read or been told. To me, it suggests that Sater previously believed that the March 1 decree was a formal declaration of war, and recently has learnt otherwise. It is interesting, to be sure, that he is a leading expert on the subject and he expresses uncertainty. It raises the question, how closely has even Sater studied this?
As far as using Wikipedia's voice to assert a March 1 declaration of war goes, I think you would have better luck arguing that March 14 is DoW; it seems the more reliable sources tend to that date or March 18.
Regarding what you wrote at my talk page I am afraid I can't believe that "announced on March 18" means "filed separately" - unless you have evidence from elsewhere of something being "filed" on March 18?
By the way, I just had another idea for a compromise wording. What if we said that on March 14 it was "formally announced that a state of war existed with Chile"? Alex Harvey ( talk) 13:27, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
News of the Chilean invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone its mention until the end of ongoing carnival festitivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians about the invasion and calling for patriotic support. Later, on March 1, he issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". Chile interpreted the decree as a declaration of war, which historians and diplomats since then have considered a controversial decision as nowhere in the decree is war actually declared. Then, on March 14, Bolivia formally announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile; and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Hi Alex,
in your opinion, what means "which he announced on 18 March"? What means "which" in this sentence?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Farcau has responded and said that from his experience in the Foreign Service, a declaration of war is usually dated from when it is communicated to the diplomatic community, and that's why he chose March 14. He says Sater is using March 18 because that's when Chile acknowledged it. February 27 is when the legislature authorised the declaration of war (=decree ?) and he feels that is probably an unimportant detail due to the fact that Daza was a dictator and didn't technically need legislative authorisation. I have pressed him for an opinion of the opposite view that Bolivia didn't declare war and asked for permission to reproduce the correspondence. Alex Harvey ( talk) 15:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Given that Farcau has conceded that he doesn't remember all the finer details and no longer has access to the research materials I don't wish to press him with further questions. I believe it is quite clear that he has vouched for his own wording that Bolivia formally declared war on March 14. Moreover he has resolved the issue of discrepancy of dates and I now see that nearly all of Keysanger's sources do support a wording that Bolivia declared war on March 14.
We could raise an RFC still I suppose but I am pretty sure it will simply bring in more support for the wording "Bolivia declared war". Alex Harvey ( talk) 02:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
News of the Chilean military invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone its mention until the end of ongoing carnival festitivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians about the invasion and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized the president to make a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Hilarión Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". Finally, on March 14, Bolivia formally announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that Chile's aggression forced a state of war to exist between both nations; and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion of Bolivia's coast constituted a casus foederis.
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, Bolivia announced to representatives of foreign powers in Lima that a state of war now existed between both nations. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
What if we go with this proposal here and then assert that on April 5 Chile reciprocated and declared war? That way we can avoid the dreaded words "Bolivia declared war" but we can also make it clear - as consistent with expert opinion - that Chile's April 5 declaration of war was a reciprocation of Bolivia's March 14 declaration. Would that satisfy Keysanger and could Marshal et al. live with that? Alex Harvey ( talk) 14:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
On March 1 1879 Bolivia's dictator Daza declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
According to historian Bruce Farcau, on February 27 Bolivian legislature issued an authorization for a declaration of war. On March 1, Daza issued a declaration of war in La Paz. Then, on March 14 Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced in Lima to representatives of foreign powers that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration of war was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5.
On March 1 1879 Bolivia's dictator Daza declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
On March 1, Daza issued a declaration of war in La Paz. Then, on March 14 Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced in Lima to representatives of foreign powers that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5.
So, Alex took the trouble to talk to Farcau for no reason. I have conceded to Bolivia announcing a state of war on March 14 (even wikilinked the DoW article on "state of war"), which is what Farcau explained, and yet you keep pushing your March 1st position. I honestly don't understand you at all.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 20:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
On March 14 1879 Bolivia declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
On March 14 the Bolivian special plenipotentiary in Peru, foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile, dated March 1 by circular note, to the diplomatic Corps accredited to Lima and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5. Peru reciprocated on 6. April
Hi Alex,
Would you please explain your claim?. My proposal includes one mention of the Bdow in the lede and one mention of the Bdow in the "crisis" section. And that is so much as the Chilean dow is mentioned in the lede and in the section "crisis". Would you be so kind to write a proposal that you can support and that mention the Bolivian declaration of war and don't hide it?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 13:15, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
On March 14 the Bolivian special plenipotentiary in Peru, foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile, dated March 1 by circular note, to the diplomatic Corps accredited to Lima and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5. Peru reciprocated on 6. April
On March 14 1879 Bolivia declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality.
On March 14 the Bolivian special plenipotentiary in Peru, foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced Bolivia's declaration of war on Chile, dated March 1 by circular note, to the diplomatic Corps accredited to Lima and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
On March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5. Peru reciprocated on 6. April 1879.
Here is an obvious alternative to the last proposal I made if we must use the words "declared war":
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he postponed mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to Bruce Farcau, the same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, Bolivia declared war in an announcement of the March 1 decree to representatives of foreign powers in Lima. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Alex Harvey ( talk) 12:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, in a meeting with foreign powers in Lima, Bolivia announced a state of war with Chile. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Keysanger, your second paragraph would replace the entire section "Peruvian mediation". The RFC will be about "should the article say 'Bolivia declared war' or 'Bolivia announced that a state of war now existed'. I would like to change my bolded sentence above to On March 14, Bolivia declared war in an announcement to representatives of foreign powers in Lima. If you are happy with that suggestion, I will start a new thread below and raise the RFC. Alex Harvey ( talk) 11:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is my simpler RFC draft. We would then line up Keysanger's 17 sources against Marshal's 4 underneath. Is everyone happy with this? Alex Harvey ( talk) 12:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
MarshalN2's list of sources states that there was "not a formal declaration of war". But the question is wheter the article should say " Bolivia announced that a state of war now existed with Chile".
Farcau says that to declare a state of war is that same as to declare a war, but MarshalN2 says it is not a declaration of war. Do you understand?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 16:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
I think it's high time for the RfC. Let's other editors say a word.
MarshalN20's undecidedness has to do with the difficulties of his undertaking.
He wants actually say that there wasn't a Bolivian Declaration of War at all. But, there is no evidence supporting his theory. 4 out of 5 of his sources are biased Peruvian or Bolivian unknown historians trying to push their nacionalistic POV by hook or by crook. Richard Gibbs statement was given on 12 March 1879, that is before the announcement on 14 March.
In order to evade this hard facts, he seems to be ready to accept the "declare state of war" option and hopes then, by means of semantics and sophisms, to transform the "declare state of war" in a "it is not a Declaration of War" as intended already ( Bolivia never actually word-by-word "declare war").
Probably, he knows that it will not work and therefore he is unsteady. What can we do to help MarshalN20?. Let's get it over with!. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 12:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
The best solution to this discussion remains that of having everyone be happy with the product. The RfC will, ultimately, arbitrarily determine one point or the other. For the sake of whatever may be left of "Good Faith" in this discussion, I propose we combine both competing concepts into one. The following is my attempt at such a combination:
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he decided to postpone mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. According to historian Bruce Farcau, that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile. On March 1, Daza issued a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts", provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia". On March 14, Bolivian foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz essentially declared war through an announcement to foreign representatives in Lima of Bolivia's state of war with Chile. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
Is this an agreement for all parties?-- MarshalN20 | Talk 21:25, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I am a professor of Latin American history at Texas A&M University. "MarshalN20" asked me to post up my opinion on the subject. If you don't mind, I would like to keep my status as anonymous. I have studied and taught the "War of the Pacific" (I prefer the name "Saltpeter War") in my course curriculum at the university. Something which could possibly help you resolve this matter is understanding the different perspectives in the conflict. The government of Chile attributed Hilarion Daza's decree of March 1st as a declaration of war, which is what they later published in Santiago on March 18. That is their view on the subject, and it should be mentioned in the article per se. Chile then published their opinion on circular notes, and effectively managed to "manipulate" (If you don't mind the word) the Western world's opinion in favor of their interpretation. However, a dissenting opinion has always existed. I provided "MarshalN20" with the Richard Gibbs source. Gibbs was ambassador to Peru during these years, and is an excellent first-hand source of the conflict. As I suppose you know by now, Gibbs explained to the US government that Bolivia's March 1st decree was not a declaration of war. Other sources exist which also provide this opinion (I think some have been provided already). Bruce Farcau and William Sater have been the most prominent modern American historians to also identify the March 1st decree as a "no declaration of war", but Italian Caivano also had this opinion way back in the day. Yes, it was a violent decree that deeply hurt Chile's national pride (Chile felt insulted that Bolivia, a "backwards nation" would dare kick out Chilean citizens); but it was not a declaration of war (I would not even consider it "informal"). Now to March 14. Peru had requested Bolivia to keep quiet while Peruvian mediators worked out the issue, and Bolivia "promised" (probably had their fingers crossed) that it would not make noise. Yet, on March 14 the Bolivian representative in Peru made an announcement to the diplomatic body in Lima (which included America, France, England), in which they formally announced the existence of a state of war with Chile. Announcing = declaring, they are both synonyms. The difference is, yet again, in the perspective given the historical context. Remember that Bolivia saw itself as the "victim" (arguably, they were just as guilty of the situation; Peru seems to be the only one that actually wanted peace, but even that's arguable), and Chile as the "aggressor". Farcau attributes this as a declaration of war, and up to a certain point he is right. Why? Because publicly "announcing a state of war" has, historically speaking, always been the "substitute" to declaring war when the nation making the announcement feels as the victim. Two examples: When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, the United States consequently announced a state of war with Japan. A little closer to this conflict, the Chaco War, Paraguay felt that Bolivia was invading its territory, so they also announced the existence of a state of war with Bolivia. In this Saltpeter War case, I believe that the best solution is to use the exact wording presented by the Bolivians (In any case, it makes little difference, but it provides a "correct" context of the situation). Anyone who reads that "Bolivia announced the existence of a state of war" is going to know what it means. Chile did not interpret this March 14 announcement as a declaration of war (remember that they took the March 1st decree for that). The questions you may ask: Why did Bolivia do it? They wanted to prevent Chile from obtaining war materials. Did it work? No; nobody really took Bolivia seriously. Why is it important? This is when Bolivia publicly asked Peru to honor their alliance; basically, it "killed" the Peruvian diplomatic mission in Chile. Suspicions existed in Chile that Peru and Bolivia had an alliance, but the public did not know for certain until Bolivia admitted it (The Chilean government already knew about it, of course). Later Chile published the March 1 decree in Santiago on March 18, and that further angered Chileans. It all adds up to Chile's final demand (an "ultimatum" if you want) on Peru to step away from the matter ("declare its neutrality"), and Peru (for whatever foolish reason) responded that they would let their Congress decide both proposals (honor the alliance or accept Chile's demand for neutrality). Then you have the April 5 declarations of war (Chile made 2 separate declarations, one for Peru and another for Bolivia), and the start of the blockades and full-scale campaigns. War, of course, started when Chilean troops took Antofagasta; but afterwards there was this "war of words" period which ended up complicating the situation more than helping resolve it. This may be too long, but I hope it helps resolve your problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.173.221 ( talk) 15:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, we are not obligated to satisfy Keysanger's requirements about the content of the article, because no one can own it. All of us agree that the statement "Bolivia announced a state of war" is not only clear, but also a well-proven and documented fact. As everyone here, Keysanger must accept the general consensus about this issue. Greetings Cloudaoc ( talk) 21:58, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
I posted a to WP:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#IP_editor_as_reliable_source_or_professional_opinion a question about the posibility of consider the contribution of the IP editor as reliable source or professional opinion.
I want to say clear and loud that I don't question the person of the editor or his contribution but its use as deciding voice in the discussion.
Please, give the board a little time to comment my question. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 16:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
The noticeboard considers unanimously that only published works can be considered as reliable source, professional or diciding opinion. The opinion of the IP editor is very valuable as mine and your but it hasn't the weight of Sater, Farcau, Lang, or Besadre's opinion. They are professional, experts and their opinion is deciding over the issue. All of them say that THERE WAS A BOLIVIAN DECLARATION OF WAR (please excuse my scream) and that is the mainstream according to the WP rules and the wording of the article must be in line with this fact of histography.
I presented you my proposal :"Bolivia declared war on Chile". We can add a reference (footnote) and tell them interested reader that there are a minority view in Peru and Bolivia, etc, etc. Such a solution would spare us the long way through the RfC, it would last longer and stable and would be WP:V and WP:NPOV rules conform. Alex, MarshalN20, what do you think about?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 20:39, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Keysanger, here is the situation so far:
MarshalN20
Cloudaoc
165.91.173.221 "professor"
Tagishsimon
Marco polo
90.197.66.202
Alex Harvey
Keysanger
Do you want to raise an RFC? If so, I'll do it now. Alex Harvey ( talk) 03:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Marshal, I note that Tagishsimon made an important observation: I see that "that same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile", so that appears to be the declaration of war concern covered to any reasonable level of satisfaction. I agree with this statement, although I am not entirely comfortable with attributing the assertion to Farcau, which raises doubt in the reader as to the certainty of the assertion. Can you ask the professor if he knows anything more about the February 27 act of legislature? Farcau said he couldn't remember any more than what was in his book. Alex Harvey ( talk) 06:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
22 sources using "Bolivia declared war" and 7 sources using "proclaim/declare/advise state of war"
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My biggest problem with your proposal is the wording "declared war" seems irreducibly to be an interpretation of what happend. In reality, Bolivia did announce that a "state of war" existed. They definitely stated that they believed this state of war had existed since Chile invaded their coastline. You don't deny this, right? So telling the reader simply that "Bolivia declared war" seems to want to tell the reader to believe something other than what I have come to realise after the course of this discussion. I don't see how that's a good thing. I think the reader deserves to know the truth. It's a minor point, of course, and the reader is free to consider our references, but I still think Marshal's proposal better tells the truth of what happened. NOTE: he is NOT claiming that Bolivia did not declare war. Nothing in Marshal's sources contradicts anything in your own sources - and remember - I got this wording from one of your own sources.
Keysanger, it is completely up to you. If you wish to press on you can. But you need to accept that if 7 editors have said that you are wrong, you need to find quite a few others before we can realistically agree to update the text in accordance with your suggestion. If you are determined to press on, then you have no choice but to raise an RFC. Alex Harvey ( talk) 13:33, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
I wonder of your posting. You make it so easy to continue the discussion because you see the failure in your rationale but you persist in the error.
You say It is a profesional opinion.
The RS noticeboard say unanimously No, it isn't a professional opinion.
You say My biggest problem with your proposal is the wording "declared war" seems irreducibly to be an interpretation of what happend.
Yes, it is an interpretation. It is the interpretation of the text given by the overwhelming majority of the historians. And that is Wikipedia. I ask you: Is your "announced ..." an interpretation?
You say In reality, Bolivia did announce that a "state of war" existed. They definitely stated that they believed this state of war had existed since Chile invaded their coastline. You don't deny this, right?
I read the text of the BDOW and my personal opinion is that Bolivia declared the war on Chile. You read the text of the BDOW and your personal opinion is that it is a 1/2*BDOW. That could be the end of the Wikipedia because that will occur in almost every article. Lets go back two steps and read the WP rules: Verificability. According to the English Wikipedia rules editors are not allowed to interprete primary sources. Only interpretations of published works are accepted. Now we get the right way. We look in the public library and find 4 sources (you say, I suspect it) stating that 0 or 1/2 BDOW. But we find 31 sources stating a BDOW. I ask you Which one is the right next step?. To say it is a 0 or a 1/2 BDOW?. or to say that it was a BDOW? I ask you, according to the WP rules, is it allowed to you use Wikipedia to publish YOUR interpretation of a primary source?
You say I think the reader deserves to know the truth.
I cite my page: User:Keysanger
Huye, Adso, de los profetas y de los que están dispuestos a morir por la verdad, porque suelen provocar también la muerte de muchos otros, a menudo antes que la propia, y a veces en lugar de la propia.
— Umberto Eco, El nombre de la rosa, Séptimo día, noche
I ask you: Are you the only owner of the truth?
You say NOTE: he [MarshalN20] is NOT claiming that Bolivia did not declare war.
He [MarshalN20] say In reality, I was hoping that the professor would agree with me in that Bolivia did not declare war in any way or form.
Do you understand me why I have no choice but to continue. It is too simple. Or can you answer my questions?
--Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Now you are talking about a "1/2 DoW". I have no idea what that means. If you really think that "announcing a state of war" is only 1/2 a DoW then it follows that you also must believe that Daza's DoW was in reality only 1/2 a DoW. I think that's nonsense, but you said it.
But let's forget about this. I know you are not going to change your mind. The question needs to be, at what point will you accept there is a consensus against your position? Suppose we raise an RFC and three more editors support Marshal's position. Do we agree that at that point you will drop the issue? And if say 1 or 2 support you then what? It will then be 7 against 3, although I would withdraw my opinion. Still 6 against 3. I want to understand how you think this is going to end. Alex Harvey ( talk) 15:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
::I see three views of the issue, I call them the 1 (KS), the 1/2(AL) and the 0(MS) BDOW, but you don't. Do you and M20 accept that that there was a full BDOW?
Cambalechero: "I think that Keysanger is systematically pushing War of the Pacific things in favour of Chile [...]"
Keysanger: "I can accept any of three dates: 1. 14. and 18 March. It is no problem for me."
Keysanger: "NOTE: he [MarshalN20] is NOT claiming that Bolivia did not declare war."
Yes agree that this discussion has run its course. The important point is we have made a compromise and it has gained the support of 7 (or possibly 8) editors. In Wikipedia, that's about as big a consensus as you'll ever get. Keysanger has said that even if an RFC is raised, he still will not drop the issue unless it goes his way. Accordingly, I agree that there should be no RFC until Keysanger agrees to be bound by the outcome. Alex Harvey ( talk) 00:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex,
If needed, I will go the way of the RfC and we have to accept the rules of WP. You can try to break the rule of WP:RFC (RfCs are not votes. Discussion controls the outcome; it is not a matter of counting up the number of votes.). I would be very sorry for you if you try to impede it and more for Wikipedia if you success. I still think you are doing a good job and don't believe you want to blow it up.
So, the question is how to resolve the problem. Few months ago I read a book named "Guidance to be unhappy" and one of the hints the author gives to be always unhappy is "be always loyal to yourself". I suppose no one of us want to be unhappy. Lets easy off.
There are three places in the article where the BDOW is mentioned. Lets mention "declaration of war" in Lede and "Peruvian mediation". The reader expects a more accurate description in "Crisis", therefore we write your biased "Announced a state of war". Don't care details like grammer, spelling, or others wordings. They are details and we can delete or improve it.
That would be:
On March 14 1879 Bolivia's dictator Daza declared war on Chile. Chile soon learned that Peru and Bolivia had a secret alliance. These revelations resulted on April 5 in a Chilean declaration of war on Peru and Bolivia after Peru refused to declare neutrality. Peru reciprocated on April 6
On March 14 Bolivia's foreign minister Serapio Reyes Ortiz announced in Lima to representatives of foreign powers that a state of war now existed between herself and Chile and called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that the Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
After the Bolivian declaration was published in Santiago on March 18, Peru's envoy Lavalle recognized the existence of the secret treaty and the Chilean government asked Peru to remain neutral. As the Peruvian government responded that Lima intended to honor its commitments to Bolivia, Chile declared the war on Peru and Bolivia on April 5.
It is a knotty move for all, specially for me and Wikipedia, but it is fair and not to move would be worse.
--Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Keysanger has apparently "fired" me as "mediator" - so do others wish to proceed here with an RFC? Alex Harvey ( talk) 12:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mr. [MarshalN20],
- I will gladly answer the questions you have for me, and they sure are plenty.
- I was not aware that Bruce Farcau found a document from the Bolivian legislature which allowed a formal declaration of war. I am certain that he would not lie about this matter. Writing "according to such-and-such" is best suited when you are citing a personal opinion. I suggest its removal. A footnote or citation attributing the finding to Bruce would suffice.
- You ask me whether Farcau's finding is relevant or irrelevant. You give me two options, but my honest answer is that the information is neither relevant or irrelevant. Recall that Hilarion Daza took control of Bolivia afer a coup, so any constitutional organization held little control over him. However, he was not a totalitarian monarch, so the constraints existed. That the legislature allowed the declaration of war is more than likely a result of Daza's speech given that same day. Think of it as a popular response to a nationalist rally. It shows that the Bolivian delegates were fully supportive of the conflict, and in that sense holds importance. What is of interest is that, despite having the formal authority to declare war (thereby having the opportunity to justify his actions akin to Pontius Pilate), Daza did not do it. Instead he paraded around with this power until Chile had enough of it.
- Peruvian involvement. Peru and Bolivia signed a mutual defense pact for the sake of their own interests (not because they cared about each other). Both countries already had enough problems elsewhere to worry about each other. Both countries ignored the treaty until Hilarion Daza used it to his advantage. Even then, Peru did what it could to avoid war with Chile and save its own skin. Then you also have Brazil and Argentina. Brazil purposely planted intrigue by informing Chile of the possible Argentinean signing of the treaty. Argentina wanted Bolivia to give up its territorial claims in exchange for their membership; Bolivia did not accept. Peru did not want to be dragged into an Argentinean-led conflict (Peru, unlike Bolivia and Argentina, held no territorial problem with Chile). You can only imagine how complicated this can get and did get in Europe (World War I). What you should understand is that everyone sought to protect their own interests in the matter. If you go back long enough, almost every country in South America could be deemed as being "involved" in the Saltpeter War. However, in a historical analysis of the actual conflict such an assertion would be silly. To make the story short, Peru got "involved" into the actual conflict when it offered to mediate the dispute between Bolivia and Chile. Argentina and Brazil never actually got involved in the conflict despite they were up their arms involved antebellum. Of course, Chile views this distinctly, but mainly as a way to justify their later belligerent actions.
- As to who started the Saltpeter War. The traditional Chilean position is that they were dragged into the conflict, and either Peru or Bolivia are attributed as the culprits. The traditional Peruvian position is that Bolivia dragged them into a war with Chile and later got "abandoned" to their own fate. The traditional Bolivian position is that an expansionist Chile sought to take advantage of weak Bolivia. Which one is right? They are all right, and they are all wrong. If you want to bring about a "neutral" interpretation, you simply have to present the facts as they took place. The Saltepeter War started when Chile occupied Antofagasta.
- Occupation or invasion? Good question. Occupations are understood to exist following an invasion, so the "invasion" step is generally skipped. Neither term is meant to be "aggressive" or "lenient." Historians distinguish the terms when they want to get specific with the sequential order, or want to explain a specific part of the situation.
- I believe this answers all of your questions? I am glad that my contributions are being helpful to your discussion. I am sorry if my decision to remain anonymous is a problem. Writing a book about the War of the Pacific would sure be a grand plan for the future, but currently I am working on something else.
- Take care,
I'll comment more on this email response below. Alex Harvey ( talk) 03:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi Alex, please give me the published opinion of the "professor". As long as he hasn't, it is only the opinion (not the professional opinion) of an IP-editor. If you want to convince me, you can do it, but in line with the WP rules, that is with published works and they still favour me: 21 of out of 31 sources say "declared war" or similar. Yes, there are many terciary sources under them. Then lets take the main researcher about the issue. I think you will agree they are Farcau, Sater, Besadre. (We let the Chileans unmentioned). Please take a look what Sater, Besadre and Farcau say:
You will agree that they write "Daza/Bolivia declared war", "Bolivian declaration of war", "formal declaration of belligerence", "el casus belli con Chile con todos sus efectos y consecuencias". This has been confirmed by Dr. B. Farcau. He is the author of one of two books in English language about the war besides many others and member of the Foreign office. I mean, he is not a unknown historian.
Please, show me your secondary sources of Sater, Farcau and Besadre stating "announced a state of war" and tell me how many they are.
If you want to work in this category the we can quickly reach an agreement. If you want to publish your personal interpretation of the 1. March decree, or to call "professional opinion" a nameless unknown IP-editor, well then lets go to the next instance.
By the way, what is your proposal for lede and Peruvian mediation?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 08:43, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
@Marshal, out of curiosity how do you translate the following sentence from Besadre: "La declaración boliviana de guerra era (dice el historiador chileno Bulnes) un palo atravesado en las ruedas del carro empujado por Lavalle". Do you agree with Keysanger's translation above? I can't read Spanish of course... Alex Harvey ( talk) 06:57, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Marshal, Cloudaoc, how is this revised proposal, based on the suggestion of the IP editor:
News of the invasion reached Hilarión Daza on February 20, but he postponed mention of it until the end of the carnival festivities. On February 27, Daza made a public manifesto informing Bolivians and calling for patriotic support. The same day the Bolivian legislature authorized a formal declaration of war upon Chile, although it was not immediately announced. On March 1, Daza issued instead a decree which prohibited all commerce and communications with Chile "while the state-of-war provoked upon Bolivia lasts," provided Chileans ten days to leave Bolivian territory unless gravely ill or handicapped, embargoed Chilean furniture, property, and mining produce, allowed Chilean mining companies to continue operating under a government-appointed administrator, and provided all embargoes as temporary "unless the hostilities exercised by Chilean forces requires an energetic retaliation from Bolivia." Then, on March 14, in a meeting with foreign powers in Lima, Bolivia announced that a state of war existed with Chile. Bolivia called on Peru to activate the alliance treaty, arguing that Chile's invasion constituted a casus foederis.
That I think should keep all reasonable editors - whether from Chile, Peru or Boliva - happy. Alex Harvey ( talk) 02:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Presently we have:
Peru entered the affair in 1879, initially attempting to mediate the dispute, but, when Chile invaded the Bolivian port city of Antofagasta on February 14, 1879, Bolivia sought the activation of its secret "Treaty of Mutual Defense" with Peru. Disputes further escalated until Chile declared war on both countries on April 5, 1879, and the following day Peru activated the alliance.
This is mainly about how Peru got involved - and less about how the war actually started. The actual start of the war - the occupation of Antofagasta - is mentioned only in passing.
I suggest we firstly introduce a sentence explaining Peru's interests prior to the dispute (in fairness) and start a new sentence about how the war started. I suggest:
The war began on February 14, 1879 when Chilean armed forced occupied the port city of Antofagasta. This was in response to Bolivia's threat to confiscate the Chilean Antofagasta Nitrate Company's property. Peru attempted to mediate, but after Bolivia ordered Chileans to leave and announced "a state of war" in Lima, the situation escalated. Bolivia asked Peru to activate the secret "Treaty of Mutual Defense". Finally, on April 5, after Peru refused to remain neutral, Chile declared war on both nations.
Alex Harvey ( talk) 15:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
The war began on February 14, 1879 when Chilean armed forces occupied the port city of Antofagasta, after a Bolivian threat to confiscate Chilean Antofagasta Nitrate Company's property. Peru attempted to mediate, but when Bolivia announced to the diplomatic corp that a state of war existed, the situation deteriorated. Boliva called on Peru to activate the mutual defense pact. Finally, on April 5, after Peru resisted Chile's demand to immediately declare its neutrality, Chile declared war on both nations.
Of course Keysanger have the right to sustain his points at infinitum, but we have to convince him to finally include the text (approved by consensus) in the article? That's my point, if he want a new RfC, perfect, I don't think than he can obtain what he wants, but meanwhile, the article remains unchanged and full of tags ("original research, "no NPoV", etc) put by Keysanger to keep the readers suspicious about its reliability. I don't share your opinion Marshall, Keysanger don't want to hear or follow the reason... Greetings.-- Ian (CloudAOC) | Talk 15:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
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