![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I think it's very much US POV - America did this, America felt this etc. No mention of Canada wanting to defend themselves, or of the fact that many Americans thought the war was unjustified. Can we get someone froma neutral country to write it, may be from Switzerland? :-) Deathlibrarian 21:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Canada did exist as a colony...whether you live in the "colony" of Canada, or the country of "Canada" if your country is being invaded you would be equally as unhappy(presumably). As much British POV as American??? You serious? Have you read this article?
As for the French and Indian War article, I can't see how that is relevant. If you have a problem with it being biased or badly written, go over there and re write it....its Wikipedia after all. Thats no reason for this article to be badly written or biased as well.
Deathlibrarian
23:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The Brits saw the US attack on Canada as traitorous as at the time they "had their back turned" trying to fight Napoleon and remove him from occupying Europe. They were pissed big time about this. They also saw no problems in selling arms to the native americans, who were just trying to protect themselves from their lands being overun and being pushed onto disease ridden reservations....is that mentioned in the opening bit? Deathlibrarian 00:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
No!..I am saying this is the British perspective and it *should be* included along with the US perspective that is already in there. Deathlibrarian 02:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, traitorous is the wrong word, opportunistic and somewhat sneaky is more correct. I've been trying to find the reference, I read it a while ago online but can't find it. The Brits were well pissed off about being attacked by the US while they were struggling with Napoleon. Certainly UK Hansard would describe attitudes but I don't have access to it. Yes, and good point British attitudes to the war are certainly less prevalent, and there are few books written by Brits on the war of 1812.However, once I find some I will post, at the moment the US viewpoint overshadows this article (coming from my perspective as an Aussie!) Deathlibrarian 05:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that someone has changed the result to no victory, or made reference to the treaty of Ghent...but as far as I'm aware, the British at the time claimed this as a victory. I can't find anything online, but does anyone know? If so it should be noted in the article. Access to British Papers from the time or British Hansard should do the trick. Deathlibrarian 02:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it funny that whenever anyone mentions the possibility of a British Victory to the War overall that an american will instantly turn around and mention New Orleans - despite it being fought after the war had ended, lost by troops who had never seen action before, led by a man desperately trying to equal his brother-in-laws greatness, and served no real purpose or outcome other than to lead the american people in believing their badly fought war of aggression was worth it. [Pagren]
(1) The US did not obtain an end to impressment, the UK order of council about impresement was dropped before the war began.And the Brits refused to sign away their right to impress Seaman in the Treaty of Ghent. (2) The British Army was not demolished, after New Orleans in fact it was sitting in Mobile, unchallenged by any American Army, and was preparing to take Mobile, but left when it heard the Treaty of Ghent had been signed. (3) The last battle of 1812 was not New Orleans, it was actually a victory for the British, Battle_of_Fort_Bowyer (4) Worst of all for the USA, the failed annexation of Canada united Canada and made them wary of the US. If the US hadn't of invaded Canada and united an otherwise divided country, parts of Canada probably would of naturally joined the US anyway. The war of 1812 wasn't the war that formed the US as a Nation, it twas the war that formed Canada as a Nation. As for the percieved no more invasions to worry about...have you ever thought that the Canadians felt the same way about the US after the war of 1812????? 211.28.212.25 15:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
My research, rather than dealing with American authors revising the war, how about some primary source quotes? Jefferson: "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighbourhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next and the final expulsion of England from the American continent." John Randolph "Agrarian greed not maritime right urges this war. We have heard but one word - like the whipporwill's one monotonous tone: Canada! Canada! Canada!" My problem is that most of your references are American. I'm trying to find what some British Historians say about the War of 1812...unfortunatley, so far, without much luck. As for the frontiersman having "plenty of land"...if that was the case, why did they have that nasty habit of killing Native Americans so they could get theirs???. From my reading, the Native Americans used to put soil in the mouths of the Americans they killed because the Indians saw them as so intent on obtaining more land (got that from a Canadian website, but I assume its true???). If the US was so keen to take land from the Spanish and the Mexicans, I can't really see why they would not want Canadian land when they saw the opportunity. Oh and I'm thinking of writing an article on US bias on the war of 1812, the level of bias and the rewriting of history is almost as interesting as the war of 1812 itself. Deathlibrarian 02:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Bad tecumseh for wanting the Indians to defend their own sovereign state.How dare he! 211.28.212.25 08:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the threat from one American Indian Chief to the US was somehow probably not as great as the threat that Napoleon Bonaparte, the Army of France and its allies posed to Europe. Tecumseh was just trying to survive, not conquer the hold of the US. The Native Americans had already lost a lot of their land and were losing more. 203.35.150.226 07:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The obvious difference between Mexico and Canada was that the US presumably knew the Mexican people would be hostile, however Jefferson and many of the Americans thought the Canadian people would welcome the US annexation. They had good reason, the French Quebecois had revolted recently, and there were a whole bunch of US immigrants in Canada that they assumed would welcome the US. Jefferson: "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighbourhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching". In fact most of the Canadian were pretty pissed off when the US invaded. Burning towns to the ground and leaving people to freeze probably isn't the best PR once could do. In fact, many native Americans sided with the British. Deathlibrarian 08:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
"The Brits made a terrible blunder in getting into a war they did not need. Rather bad diplomacy one muct say, and a good reason to forget it, which they have."
Well well, lets get our facts straight... AMERICA declared war, not Britain; they didn't get themselves into a war at all, the yankees dragged them into one. If you actually look at the war, you'll see that AMERICA made the terrible blunder.
And by the way, for all you Americans who think you won the last land battle of the war, you didn't... The British captured for boyer just around a month after New Orleans.
Jefferson was long out of office in 1812 and did not shape national policy, But he did have an interesting viewpoint: he wanted to purge the New World of British corrpution. Biographer Merrill Peterson pp 932-33 explains:
OK, I've been watching this discussion with some amusement, but the preceding is a bit much. 20th century revolt against Britain? Why would Canadians need to, since Canada was an independent Dominion internally since 1867 and externally after the 1933 Statute of Westminster. To look at particular statements:
WHEW! Now that that's over, could we please continue with matters germane to this article - the causes and outcomes of the War of 1812? Just my 2.5¢¢ worth. Esseh 23:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The British and United Empire Loyalists elite, rejecting democracy and republicanism, tried to set Canadians on a different course from that of their former enemy.
This was placed as an intro to the sentences about the militia myth, implying that the British and the Loyalists created the myth on purpose as a way of "setting Canadians on a different course" (whatever that means). Since that assertion is not present in the online source given, I am moving it here. -- Anonymous44 01:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Brief comment. Republicanism ≠ Democracy. Republicanism is merely one form of democracy. Hence, it is possible to be a democracy without being a republic. And indeed, the UK, Canada and much of the Commonwealth are Constitutional Monarchies - also democracies, but not republics. See also People's Republics, which tend to be non-democratic, whether republics or not, and ruled by autocrats (Monarchs, essentially, though maybe termed President-for-life) or oligarchies. Thus, discouraging republicanism need not necessarily mean suppressing democracy. Esseh 00:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh course there were malcontents in the Canadas. This came to a head in the Rebellions of 1837. However, neither revolt received widespread support, and failed miserably. The Canadian people were interested in democracy; they just didn't want American democracy. And even in your quote, all of the above was "in the opinion of the radicals", and thus not necessarily the prevailing view.
04:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Esseh
Thanks, Anonymous44. I agree with you, believe it or not. I feel this article is somewhat biased toward the American POV; I haven't edited anything yet, but have been trying to contribute to the discussion (see my, mostly unanswered, posts above) to reach some consensus as to how it could be revised.
You are correct: there were internal political conflicts in the 1830's (and before, and after, and still today). Indeed, my problem is that this internal dissention is being portrayed as strictly a Canadian problem. Americans also had their internal dissention in 1812, as well as before and after (New England opposed the war; problems with the wealthy trying to maintain their position and denying universal suffrage in the US, etc...). You are also correct that "Anglican" is a religion, not an ethnicity, and it's called "Episcopalian" in the US to this day. Since many Americans were, and are Episcopalian, it's unlikely that there was an "Anglican" conspiracy at any time. A ruling-class conspiracy? Likely; but that would not be unlike the conspiracies of ruling classes to maintain their positions everywhere (including 1812 America).
I would disagree with you on the point that most Canadians in 1812 were ex-American and ex-Loyalist. In fact, I think the majority of the population would have been francophone Canadien, though I don't know where to look for census figures. It is largely irrelevant, though, since the attempted invasion of 1812 had the ultimate effect (in my mind) of unifying Canadians in their desire not to be Americans, rather than (perversely) in their desires to be any one thing. Does that make any sense?
Esseh
02:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Anon44, and thanks. You're right in one sense, and wrong (IMHO) in another. The francophones did, by and large, live a separate life. But emerging Canadian patriotism did concern them, in a different way. In fact, at that time, the francophones were les Canadiens (neither French, no English, nor American!) in both their own minds, and to the English-speaking inhabitants, who (whether British-born or Loyalist) were largely "British" in their own minds. I don't think an English version of a "Canadian identity" appeared 'til much later - probably largely influenced by the events (and mythology) of the War of 1812. In 1812, as during the American Revolution, the Americans (I think) hoped for a mass revolt of the Canadiens (and les Acadiens) against the British to help them in their goals. The British, for their part, recognised this danger, and it is reflected in several provisions of the Quebec Act before the Revolution and in many of their later dealings with the francophones élite (especially the Catholic church) after. As for bias, I agree. The main problem is that one sentence, and in the reasons: territorial expansion was an unstated reason, I am convinced. But it was territorial expansion not into Upper and Lower Canada, so much as it was expansion into the Ohio valley (then part of Canada) and what is now Western Canada. However, the main "bias" is rather one of omission; the views and actions of the majority of those who would self-identify as "Canadians" (les Canadiens) is almost completely ignored. I have wanted to correct some of this, but given the heated discussion here, have so far refrained. As always, comments welcome. Esseh 02:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Rjensen. My reading suggests the Jay Treaty settled precious little, and the exact area of the boundary remained in dispute, even in Eastern areas (see the Aroostook War and the Republic of Madawaska, and the Republic of Indian River) as well as Western (Northwest Angle). The Mississippi still remained navigable to both (per the Treaty of Paris), and de facto the western boundary of the U.S. Wherever the boundary was, it did not sit well with those Americans wishing to expand west. Interestingly, the Jay Treaty was vehemently opposed by Jefferson and others as a sell-out. Could this be an additional cause of the war? Jingoism is surely not merely a British affliction. Esseh 03:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the question whose patriotism was concerned by the war of 1812 - at least this text by Eric Kaufmann, which Rjensen was kind enough to point out to me, speaks exclusively of the emergence of an Upper Canadian (i.e. anglophone) identity.
Anyway - I now notice that the whole three-sentence paragraph has more faults, apart from the unsourcedness of the assertion that the loyalist elite "sponsored" the myth in order to combat democracy. First, it repeats the same thing about the militia myth and nationalism as the previous paragraph. Second, while there is no doubt that the Tory loyalist elite was opposed to the degree of democracy that was present in the US (although Kaufmann doesn't even say that, speaking instead of their desire for a "gradual change within the British system" rather than "rebellion"), none of the present sources says that this was a "consequence" of 1812, and the whole section is entitled "Consequences". Thus, the only remaining info that is both useful and sourced is the bit about Canada supposedly not needing a regular professional army. So I am incorporating that into the previous paragraph, and removing the rest for the time being. The Kaufmann link is very interesting and useful, so I'm keeping it as a source for the whole paragraph. -- Anonymous44 12:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm a middle school student and I was asked by my tacher to do some trivia on the War of 1812. I have a question i'm stuck on mind helping. The question is Which famous ship was called "Old Ironside?" Why was it called this? Thanks
USS Constitution - called old iron sides because it was covered in sheets of Iron across the hull making cannon balls bounce off. Nice ship, but she's got nothing on HMS Victory ;o) [Pagren]
guest User
Look at the two images:
What do you think? The Anonymous One 01:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Very nice. How is the image to the left relevant here? Esseh 18:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
You guess. The Anonymous One 00:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, the left image is totally irrelevant to either the article or the discussion at hand. The left might go with the beginnings of the assault on Hong Kong and Singapore, or the bombing of Darwin in Oz, or perhaps 6- 7 December, 1941. The one below could be paired with the burning of York, UC. Does that help? Esseh 01:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I think it's very much US POV - America did this, America felt this etc. No mention of Canada wanting to defend themselves, or of the fact that many Americans thought the war was unjustified. Can we get someone froma neutral country to write it, may be from Switzerland? :-) Deathlibrarian 21:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Canada did exist as a colony...whether you live in the "colony" of Canada, or the country of "Canada" if your country is being invaded you would be equally as unhappy(presumably). As much British POV as American??? You serious? Have you read this article?
As for the French and Indian War article, I can't see how that is relevant. If you have a problem with it being biased or badly written, go over there and re write it....its Wikipedia after all. Thats no reason for this article to be badly written or biased as well.
Deathlibrarian
23:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The Brits saw the US attack on Canada as traitorous as at the time they "had their back turned" trying to fight Napoleon and remove him from occupying Europe. They were pissed big time about this. They also saw no problems in selling arms to the native americans, who were just trying to protect themselves from their lands being overun and being pushed onto disease ridden reservations....is that mentioned in the opening bit? Deathlibrarian 00:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
No!..I am saying this is the British perspective and it *should be* included along with the US perspective that is already in there. Deathlibrarian 02:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, traitorous is the wrong word, opportunistic and somewhat sneaky is more correct. I've been trying to find the reference, I read it a while ago online but can't find it. The Brits were well pissed off about being attacked by the US while they were struggling with Napoleon. Certainly UK Hansard would describe attitudes but I don't have access to it. Yes, and good point British attitudes to the war are certainly less prevalent, and there are few books written by Brits on the war of 1812.However, once I find some I will post, at the moment the US viewpoint overshadows this article (coming from my perspective as an Aussie!) Deathlibrarian 05:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that someone has changed the result to no victory, or made reference to the treaty of Ghent...but as far as I'm aware, the British at the time claimed this as a victory. I can't find anything online, but does anyone know? If so it should be noted in the article. Access to British Papers from the time or British Hansard should do the trick. Deathlibrarian 02:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it funny that whenever anyone mentions the possibility of a British Victory to the War overall that an american will instantly turn around and mention New Orleans - despite it being fought after the war had ended, lost by troops who had never seen action before, led by a man desperately trying to equal his brother-in-laws greatness, and served no real purpose or outcome other than to lead the american people in believing their badly fought war of aggression was worth it. [Pagren]
(1) The US did not obtain an end to impressment, the UK order of council about impresement was dropped before the war began.And the Brits refused to sign away their right to impress Seaman in the Treaty of Ghent. (2) The British Army was not demolished, after New Orleans in fact it was sitting in Mobile, unchallenged by any American Army, and was preparing to take Mobile, but left when it heard the Treaty of Ghent had been signed. (3) The last battle of 1812 was not New Orleans, it was actually a victory for the British, Battle_of_Fort_Bowyer (4) Worst of all for the USA, the failed annexation of Canada united Canada and made them wary of the US. If the US hadn't of invaded Canada and united an otherwise divided country, parts of Canada probably would of naturally joined the US anyway. The war of 1812 wasn't the war that formed the US as a Nation, it twas the war that formed Canada as a Nation. As for the percieved no more invasions to worry about...have you ever thought that the Canadians felt the same way about the US after the war of 1812????? 211.28.212.25 15:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
My research, rather than dealing with American authors revising the war, how about some primary source quotes? Jefferson: "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighbourhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next and the final expulsion of England from the American continent." John Randolph "Agrarian greed not maritime right urges this war. We have heard but one word - like the whipporwill's one monotonous tone: Canada! Canada! Canada!" My problem is that most of your references are American. I'm trying to find what some British Historians say about the War of 1812...unfortunatley, so far, without much luck. As for the frontiersman having "plenty of land"...if that was the case, why did they have that nasty habit of killing Native Americans so they could get theirs???. From my reading, the Native Americans used to put soil in the mouths of the Americans they killed because the Indians saw them as so intent on obtaining more land (got that from a Canadian website, but I assume its true???). If the US was so keen to take land from the Spanish and the Mexicans, I can't really see why they would not want Canadian land when they saw the opportunity. Oh and I'm thinking of writing an article on US bias on the war of 1812, the level of bias and the rewriting of history is almost as interesting as the war of 1812 itself. Deathlibrarian 02:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Bad tecumseh for wanting the Indians to defend their own sovereign state.How dare he! 211.28.212.25 08:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the threat from one American Indian Chief to the US was somehow probably not as great as the threat that Napoleon Bonaparte, the Army of France and its allies posed to Europe. Tecumseh was just trying to survive, not conquer the hold of the US. The Native Americans had already lost a lot of their land and were losing more. 203.35.150.226 07:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The obvious difference between Mexico and Canada was that the US presumably knew the Mexican people would be hostile, however Jefferson and many of the Americans thought the Canadian people would welcome the US annexation. They had good reason, the French Quebecois had revolted recently, and there were a whole bunch of US immigrants in Canada that they assumed would welcome the US. Jefferson: "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighbourhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching". In fact most of the Canadian were pretty pissed off when the US invaded. Burning towns to the ground and leaving people to freeze probably isn't the best PR once could do. In fact, many native Americans sided with the British. Deathlibrarian 08:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
"The Brits made a terrible blunder in getting into a war they did not need. Rather bad diplomacy one muct say, and a good reason to forget it, which they have."
Well well, lets get our facts straight... AMERICA declared war, not Britain; they didn't get themselves into a war at all, the yankees dragged them into one. If you actually look at the war, you'll see that AMERICA made the terrible blunder.
And by the way, for all you Americans who think you won the last land battle of the war, you didn't... The British captured for boyer just around a month after New Orleans.
Jefferson was long out of office in 1812 and did not shape national policy, But he did have an interesting viewpoint: he wanted to purge the New World of British corrpution. Biographer Merrill Peterson pp 932-33 explains:
OK, I've been watching this discussion with some amusement, but the preceding is a bit much. 20th century revolt against Britain? Why would Canadians need to, since Canada was an independent Dominion internally since 1867 and externally after the 1933 Statute of Westminster. To look at particular statements:
WHEW! Now that that's over, could we please continue with matters germane to this article - the causes and outcomes of the War of 1812? Just my 2.5¢¢ worth. Esseh 23:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The British and United Empire Loyalists elite, rejecting democracy and republicanism, tried to set Canadians on a different course from that of their former enemy.
This was placed as an intro to the sentences about the militia myth, implying that the British and the Loyalists created the myth on purpose as a way of "setting Canadians on a different course" (whatever that means). Since that assertion is not present in the online source given, I am moving it here. -- Anonymous44 01:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Brief comment. Republicanism ≠ Democracy. Republicanism is merely one form of democracy. Hence, it is possible to be a democracy without being a republic. And indeed, the UK, Canada and much of the Commonwealth are Constitutional Monarchies - also democracies, but not republics. See also People's Republics, which tend to be non-democratic, whether republics or not, and ruled by autocrats (Monarchs, essentially, though maybe termed President-for-life) or oligarchies. Thus, discouraging republicanism need not necessarily mean suppressing democracy. Esseh 00:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh course there were malcontents in the Canadas. This came to a head in the Rebellions of 1837. However, neither revolt received widespread support, and failed miserably. The Canadian people were interested in democracy; they just didn't want American democracy. And even in your quote, all of the above was "in the opinion of the radicals", and thus not necessarily the prevailing view.
04:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Esseh
Thanks, Anonymous44. I agree with you, believe it or not. I feel this article is somewhat biased toward the American POV; I haven't edited anything yet, but have been trying to contribute to the discussion (see my, mostly unanswered, posts above) to reach some consensus as to how it could be revised.
You are correct: there were internal political conflicts in the 1830's (and before, and after, and still today). Indeed, my problem is that this internal dissention is being portrayed as strictly a Canadian problem. Americans also had their internal dissention in 1812, as well as before and after (New England opposed the war; problems with the wealthy trying to maintain their position and denying universal suffrage in the US, etc...). You are also correct that "Anglican" is a religion, not an ethnicity, and it's called "Episcopalian" in the US to this day. Since many Americans were, and are Episcopalian, it's unlikely that there was an "Anglican" conspiracy at any time. A ruling-class conspiracy? Likely; but that would not be unlike the conspiracies of ruling classes to maintain their positions everywhere (including 1812 America).
I would disagree with you on the point that most Canadians in 1812 were ex-American and ex-Loyalist. In fact, I think the majority of the population would have been francophone Canadien, though I don't know where to look for census figures. It is largely irrelevant, though, since the attempted invasion of 1812 had the ultimate effect (in my mind) of unifying Canadians in their desire not to be Americans, rather than (perversely) in their desires to be any one thing. Does that make any sense?
Esseh
02:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Anon44, and thanks. You're right in one sense, and wrong (IMHO) in another. The francophones did, by and large, live a separate life. But emerging Canadian patriotism did concern them, in a different way. In fact, at that time, the francophones were les Canadiens (neither French, no English, nor American!) in both their own minds, and to the English-speaking inhabitants, who (whether British-born or Loyalist) were largely "British" in their own minds. I don't think an English version of a "Canadian identity" appeared 'til much later - probably largely influenced by the events (and mythology) of the War of 1812. In 1812, as during the American Revolution, the Americans (I think) hoped for a mass revolt of the Canadiens (and les Acadiens) against the British to help them in their goals. The British, for their part, recognised this danger, and it is reflected in several provisions of the Quebec Act before the Revolution and in many of their later dealings with the francophones élite (especially the Catholic church) after. As for bias, I agree. The main problem is that one sentence, and in the reasons: territorial expansion was an unstated reason, I am convinced. But it was territorial expansion not into Upper and Lower Canada, so much as it was expansion into the Ohio valley (then part of Canada) and what is now Western Canada. However, the main "bias" is rather one of omission; the views and actions of the majority of those who would self-identify as "Canadians" (les Canadiens) is almost completely ignored. I have wanted to correct some of this, but given the heated discussion here, have so far refrained. As always, comments welcome. Esseh 02:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Rjensen. My reading suggests the Jay Treaty settled precious little, and the exact area of the boundary remained in dispute, even in Eastern areas (see the Aroostook War and the Republic of Madawaska, and the Republic of Indian River) as well as Western (Northwest Angle). The Mississippi still remained navigable to both (per the Treaty of Paris), and de facto the western boundary of the U.S. Wherever the boundary was, it did not sit well with those Americans wishing to expand west. Interestingly, the Jay Treaty was vehemently opposed by Jefferson and others as a sell-out. Could this be an additional cause of the war? Jingoism is surely not merely a British affliction. Esseh 03:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the question whose patriotism was concerned by the war of 1812 - at least this text by Eric Kaufmann, which Rjensen was kind enough to point out to me, speaks exclusively of the emergence of an Upper Canadian (i.e. anglophone) identity.
Anyway - I now notice that the whole three-sentence paragraph has more faults, apart from the unsourcedness of the assertion that the loyalist elite "sponsored" the myth in order to combat democracy. First, it repeats the same thing about the militia myth and nationalism as the previous paragraph. Second, while there is no doubt that the Tory loyalist elite was opposed to the degree of democracy that was present in the US (although Kaufmann doesn't even say that, speaking instead of their desire for a "gradual change within the British system" rather than "rebellion"), none of the present sources says that this was a "consequence" of 1812, and the whole section is entitled "Consequences". Thus, the only remaining info that is both useful and sourced is the bit about Canada supposedly not needing a regular professional army. So I am incorporating that into the previous paragraph, and removing the rest for the time being. The Kaufmann link is very interesting and useful, so I'm keeping it as a source for the whole paragraph. -- Anonymous44 12:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm a middle school student and I was asked by my tacher to do some trivia on the War of 1812. I have a question i'm stuck on mind helping. The question is Which famous ship was called "Old Ironside?" Why was it called this? Thanks
USS Constitution - called old iron sides because it was covered in sheets of Iron across the hull making cannon balls bounce off. Nice ship, but she's got nothing on HMS Victory ;o) [Pagren]
guest User
Look at the two images:
What do you think? The Anonymous One 01:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Very nice. How is the image to the left relevant here? Esseh 18:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
You guess. The Anonymous One 00:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, the left image is totally irrelevant to either the article or the discussion at hand. The left might go with the beginnings of the assault on Hong Kong and Singapore, or the bombing of Darwin in Oz, or perhaps 6- 7 December, 1941. The one below could be paired with the burning of York, UC. Does that help? Esseh 01:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)