This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Part removed:
Amnesty International condemned the Ukrainian army's combat tactics that endanger civilians. Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General, stated that "We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas [...] Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law".
[1]
Two users are removing this part giving vague reasons:
Please could you explain why Amensty International's statement should be removed, while statements like "Russia has repeatedly accused Ukraine of using human shields, a claim which has been rejected by scholars Michael N. Schmitt, Neve Gordon, and Nicola Perugini as an attempt to shift blame for civilian deaths to Ukraine.
" are left alone in the "Ukrainian forces" section? Per
WP:Balance we must report the two arguments.
Mhorg (
talk)
20:04, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
When one starts talking about "definition", it would be nice to have actually familiarized oneself with the actual definition. The definition of human shields is deliberately using civilians to shield your military against enemy attack, or as it is written in Geneva Convention:
Art 51. - Protection of the civilian population
[6]
7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.
Jailing civilians at a military object matches pretty well. On other hand, defending army using protective urban terrain that hasn't been properly evacuated during an all-out surprise invasion? Not so obvious at all. To illustrate how difference exists and matters, from Amnesty 2009 report about
Operation Cast Lead:
Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups also violated international humanitarian law in their conduct within Gaza. They launched rockets and located military equipment and positions near civilian homes, endangering the lives of the inhabitants by exposing them to the risk of Israeli attacks. They also used empty homes and properties as combat positions during armed confrontations with Israeli forces, exposing the inhabitants of nearby houses to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.
[7] (pages 3-4)
However, contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials of the use of “human shields”, Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants.
I would also note that Amnesty did not hesitate to explicitly blame Israel for use of "human shields" in that same report (page 48), so the fact that it is not stated as such in Ukraine report is very much relevant. Trying to "balance" cases where multiple reliable sources have actually reported Russians using human shields, with a report which only blames Ukraine for endangering civilians but makes no clear claim about use of human shields would be quite clearly a false balance. We should stick here with sources which actually explicitly talk about military using civilians as shields, and not rely on curious alternative definitions wikipedians can come up.--
Staberinde (
talk)
09:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
We should stick here with sources which actually explicitly talk about military using civilians as shields, and not rely on curious alternative definitions wikipedians can come up"
Placement of military objectives near civilian objects and the use of human shields 34. OHCHR is concerned that in the course of hostilities, both Russian armed forces and affiliated armed groups as well as Ukrainian armed forces took up positions either in residential areas or near civilian objects, from where they launched military operations without taking measures for the protection of civilians present, as required under IHL.16 OHCHR is further concerned by reports of the use of human shields, which involves seeking to use the presence or movement of the civilian population or individual civilians to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. The use of human shields is specifically prohibited by article 28 of Geneva Convention IV and article 51(7) of additional protocol I. 35. OHCHR does not have reliable numbers on these cases, but the case of a care house in the village of Stara Krasnianka (Luhansk region) has been emblematic in this regard. At the beginning of March 2022, when active hostilities drew nearer to the care house, its management repeatedly requested local authorities to evacuate the residents. This was reportedly impossible as Ukrainian armed forces had allegedly mined the surrounding area and blocked roads. On 7 March, soldiers from Ukrainian armed forces entered the care house, where older persons and residents with disabilities and staff were located, as it had strategic value due to its proximity to an important road. On 9 March, soldiers from Russian affiliated armed groups, who were approaching from the opposite direction, engaged in an exchange of fire with soldiers from Ukrainian armed forces, although it remains unclear which side opened fire first. During this first exchange of fire, no staff or patients were injured. 36. On 11 March, 71 patients with disabilities and 15 staff, along with soldiers from Ukrainian armed forces, remained in the care house with no access to water or electricity. That morning, soldiers from Russian affiliated armed groups attacked the care house with heavy weapons, with patients and staff still inside. A fire started and spread across the care house while fighting was ongoing. Some staff and patients fled the care house and ran into the forest, until they were met five kilometers away by Russian affiliated armed groups, who provided them with assistance. According to various accounts, at least 22 patients survived the attack, but the exact number of persons killed remains unknown.Mhorg ( talk) 11:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Placement of military objectives near civilian objects and the use of human shields. As it happens, while report does describe Ukrainians placing military objectives near civilian objects, it makes no claim of Stara Krasnianka case being an actual attempt to use civilians to shield oneself against enemy attacks. This clearly contrasts to the same section's description of Russian army behavior at Yahidne where the report explicitly states:
The incident raises concerns that Russian armed forces used civilians to seek to render their base immune from military operations, .... We need to stick to information that is explicitly supported by the source.-- Staberinde ( talk) 21:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
[11] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/us/politics/pentagon-war-crimes-hague.html Chin2021 ( talk) 04:19, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
As usual
@ Volunteer Marek is removing Amnesty report on War crimes committed by Ukrianian forces, to give a santized version of how holy are Ukrianian forces.
They only job of this guy here for past 6 months is to remove this exact same Amnesty report each time Proud Indian Arnab ( talk) 14:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Clearly, "War crimes in the invasion of Ukraine" is a loaded title.So, if this acticle is to be seen as fair and balanced - and not pushing some US Point Of View - might it not be called: 'War crimes in the Russian/Ukraine conflict'? While war crimes happen on both side, do not some of the more wild and outlandish claims of Russian human rights outrages from the Ukrainian Govt need to be full addressed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.2.107 ( talk) 17:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Or are we to think the Ukrainian soldiers are angels and would never even think of it? This whole article loses credibility. The excuses used here as to the removal of the amnesty report is exactly the reason why more and more people are not supporting wikipedia. As much as you would love to censor subject matter that goes against your agenda or ideals you will never remove the doubt and lack of credibility for this article. Report both sides because everyone knows Ukraine is capable of war crimes as well otherwise your hypocrisy is showing. 2603:8001:600:A600:D7AC:CBC3:D156:14C9 ( talk) 14:47, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
The section on sexual violence might benefit from a mention of the infamous phone call where a Russian soldier asked his wife for permission to rape Ukrainian women during his service ( https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-rape-russian-soldier-wife-bykovsky/31805486.html). The wife was placed on an international wanted list: https://www.lbc.co.uk/world-news/russian-wife-soldier-husband-rape-ukrainian-women-international-wanted-list/
The section on national legal proceedings should also probably mention the reports that a Ukrainian soldier was indicted in Russia on charges of murder and mistreatment of civilians ( https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/17113235) and later pleaded "partly guilty" ( https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/ukraine-soldier-pleads-partly-guilty-to-war-crime-c-10257505), and that Russian tank commander Mykhail Kulikov was convicted of violating the laws and customs of war by shelling a civilian target ( https://www.kyivpost.com/post/1819). 213.31.56.201 ( talk) 10:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On 13 June 2023, Russian troops murdered 6 civilians in Sumy Oblast near Seredyna-Buda, mutilated their bodies, and then mined the place to kill people who tried to retrieve their bodies. They also blocked retrieval of bodies for 2 more days. This case is currently being investigated by Ukrainian authorities.
Sources: 1) prosecutor's office of Ukraine 2) https://tsn.ua/exclusive/rosiyska-drg-rozstrilyala-6-lisivnikiv-na-sumschini-i-pivtori-dobi-znuschalas-z-drona-podrobici-tragediyi-2350810.html?fbclid=IwAR2I0i6Gsa8Y15oHbYa5K6y2XkXG62GvF63l4_qC4zVbKwomBp4O1Pi49Ls 3) https://suspilne.media/507121-vnaslidok-artobstrilu-u-sostkinskomu-rajoni-zaginulo-sestero-lisnikiv-u-prokuraturi-vidkrili-kriminalne-provadzenna/
(Sadly, this case didn't get any foreign coverage, but these victims were family friends and i don't want this evil Russian act to be forgotten...) 2A00:102A:5002:8750:7D56:5855:1812:BC07 ( talk) 23:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
Can someone change "an Ukrainian" to "a Ukrainian", please. Jenny Jankel ( talk) 23:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
There is Consensus to add (much of) the information, but overall, the actual text of option 2 was Opposed for various reasons, including needing to be more neutral in tone. (The text of the section about Volodymyr Struk, in particular, was opposed.)
Kudos to Gitz for trying to find a way forward in the discussion, but from the discussion and survey comments, it would appear that starting over with new text would apparently be the next step/way to move forward.
So no prejudice, of course, against a follow-up discussion in order to try to hammer out new text. - jc37 06:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
This RfC concerns whether and how the article should report about killings of suspected collaborators of the Russian occupiers.
Option 1 (status quo). The article should not include a section on killings of suspected collaborators of the Russian occupiers.
Option 2 (proposed text). The article should include a section as the one proposed here below.
Option 3 (different text). The article should include a section different from the one proposed (specify how).
Proposed text
|
---|
Extrajudicial executions of suspected collaboratorsAs of 30 August nearly a dozen people had been killed and others injured in assassination attempts on collaborationists and Russian-appointed officials in the occupied territories. [1] Some of the attacks against high-ranking political collaborators were allegedly conducted by Ukrainian partisans led and trained by Ukrainian special forces. [2] On 2 March 2022 Volodymyr Struk, a pro-Russian mayor in the town of Kremnina, was abducted and shot dead by unknown gunmen. An advisor to the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, Anton Herashchenko, reported that Struk had been “judged by the public tribunal and apparently shot by unknown patriots as a traitor". [3] On 8 September, the Washington Post reported a wave of assassinations and attempted killings against Russian-appointed officials and Ukrainian collaborators, as Ukrainian hit squads and saboteurs gunned down, blown up, hanged and poisoned almost 20 people considered to be collaborators of the puppet governments of Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics. [4] The assassination campaign was described as raising questions "about extrajudicial killings and potential war crimes, particularly when the targets are political actors or civilians". [4] On 27 September, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights documented six killings of alleged "traitors" of Ukraine. The victims were local authority officials, policemen and civilians who were believed to have voluntarily cooperated with the enemy. According to OHCHR, these killings may have been committed by government agents or with their acquiescence and could constitute extrajudicial executions and war crimes. [5] References
|
Persons taking no active part in the hostilities … shall in all circumstances be treated humanely) and the 1977 Additional Protocols. (By the way, it should be noted that at the time the opposite case was much more frequent: during WW2 Germany executed thousands of civilian "spies", "traitors" and "saboteurs". It is estimated that they sentenced 30,000 people to death for treason or desertion, 20,000 of whom were executed. Yet the Nuremberg Tribunal did not condemn high treason cases as crimes against humanity precisely because at the time international law, and in particular the law of armed conflict, was different from today – so no meaningful comparisons can be made.) However, the case of the killing by Hamas of Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel is comparable, and it has been considered a war crime by the United Nations (for references, see my comment above).
Non government Ukrainian partisan groups killing collaborators would be an example of political terrorism, but not war crimes. Actually war crimes can be committed also by civilians, and the same action may qualify both as "terrorism" under national criminal law and as a "war crime" under IHL if there's a nexus with an armed conflict. The OHCHR report says (para. 40) "As such, these killings may amount to extrajudicial executions and war crimes, and should be investigated and prosecuted accordingly". The OHCHR is referring to six documented killings of civilians perceived as "traitors", which "may have been perpetrated by agents of the Government of Ukraine or with their acquiescence". Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 16:36, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
if I’m not mistaken, I'm afraid you are mistaken. I don't know where you got this "two war crimes" figure, but the OHCHR speaks explicitly of a possible war crime in the case of the extrajudicial killing of suspected traitors. I copy and paste the text of the source below, as it may be of interest to all (emphasis mine).
- Extrajudicial executions of people perceived as so-called ‘traitors’
- 40. OHCHR documented six killings of civilians perceived as so-called ‘traitors’ against Ukraine for their alleged collaboration with the Russian Federation in territory occupied by it or controlled by Russian armed forces or affiliated armed groups since 24 February. While those who committed the killings remain unknown, OHCHR has concerns that some of these killings may have been perpetrated by agents of the Government of Ukraine or with their acquiescence.23 Most of the victims were former or active officials of local authorities, officers of law enforcement bodies or civilians who were believed to have voluntarily cooperated and worked with the occupation authorities. As these victims were civilians, they cannot be considered legitimate military targets.24 As such, these killings may amount to extrajudicial executions and war crimes, and should be investigated and prosecuted accordingly.
- footnote 23 For example, on 19 April, an advisor to the Minister of Internal Affairs stated on a talk show that “there is [a service] established and working in occupied territories. When you hear that someone in occupied territories ‘suddenly died’ – this is the work of our services”.
- footnote 24 See Geneva Convention III, art. 4 (a); Additional Protocol I, arts. 43 and 50.
— Report on the human rights situation in Ukraine, 1 February to 31 July 2022 (Report). OHCHR. 27 September 2022. para. 40. Retrieved 10 Oct 2022.
an image reportedly showing a damaged Russian military truck carrying three washing machines ... a call by a Russian soldier released by the Security Service of Ukraine included the soldier telling his girlfriend: "I stole some cosmetics for you") and " Sexual violence" (
A 52 year old woman was taken by Russian soldiers in occupied Izyum and repeatedly raped while her husband was beaten. The Russians forcibly undressed her, groped her, and told her that they would send photos of the activity to her family members, and it goes on an on for 137 words based on only one source). Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 15:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd be happy if we could come out of this RfC with a shared text. Those who !voted for option 3, Michael and Tristario, gave some indications, and also Alaexis said that they would drop the information on Struk. On this also Adoring nanny agrees. I agree with My very best wishes that it would be desirable if users who prefer option 3 were to propose a specific text to be included: maybe those who favour option 1 and 2 could also agree on that text. So I created this page where editors could modify the proposed text so as to make it more acceptable for everybody: Draft on collaborators. I already dropped the contentious paragraph on Struk. This section of the talk can be used for discussions. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 15:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Apparently this RfC isn't getting much traction, but we may already have a rough consensus. Apart from two/three editors, everybody agrees that we should have a section on killing of collaborators and, apart from one/two editors, everybody agrees that the proposed text needs to be modified. Option 3 is the middle ground most of us agree on. I think the following result could be OK to many:
the start of a list of all suspected partisan killings, implying that they all may be suspected war crimes, and encouraging the addition of every suspected partisan killing(Michael's concern).
brief(Tristario's concern).
necessary background from other journalistic sources, and link to appropriate articles on the separate subject like Ukrainian resistanceand provide more information about the
context of the killings, or modify the information already provided, if it's faulty or misleading.
Would this be acceptable? Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:42, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Hey @ Gitz6666:? Remember how you were arguing so strongly that violence committed by one side against its own people was also a "war crime"? How come you're not rushing to include the brutal murder of a Russian mercenary with a blow of a sledgehammer to the head by the Wagner group [27] [28] into this article? Volunteer Marek 01:42, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
This article is good. Kudos to editors
The Introduction seems long and gets into both chronological and categorical types of war crimes.
If no objections I am going to try and tighten it up and reflect the text structure of the article overall. Jgmac1106 ( talk) 16:21, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Many claims use United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine reports. Do people consider these primary sources that would violate independent research bias?
This would mean they should be replaced with secondary sources that cite the report.
Or do editors feel they are acceptable? Jgmac1106 ( talk) 16:25, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
An IP editor has added some information about Russian war crimes - castrations - at the eponymous Castration article, in this edit: [29]. I expect editors on this page are better able to evaluate that information than me. I'd be grateful if an editor here could glance over that edit to make sure it is in line with any discussions you have had here. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 18:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
2 more sources to add to this article:
Inaccuracy in the article: the article says "torture and mutilitation of Ukrainian prisoners of war" in the introduction, then lists the crimes of both sides in the next chapters. I propose to mention here also the Russians, after all, they were also tortured and murdered. 46.205.141.33 ( talk) 17:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Part removed:
Amnesty International condemned the Ukrainian army's combat tactics that endanger civilians. Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General, stated that "We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas [...] Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law".
[1]
Two users are removing this part giving vague reasons:
Please could you explain why Amensty International's statement should be removed, while statements like "Russia has repeatedly accused Ukraine of using human shields, a claim which has been rejected by scholars Michael N. Schmitt, Neve Gordon, and Nicola Perugini as an attempt to shift blame for civilian deaths to Ukraine.
" are left alone in the "Ukrainian forces" section? Per
WP:Balance we must report the two arguments.
Mhorg (
talk)
20:04, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
When one starts talking about "definition", it would be nice to have actually familiarized oneself with the actual definition. The definition of human shields is deliberately using civilians to shield your military against enemy attack, or as it is written in Geneva Convention:
Art 51. - Protection of the civilian population
[6]
7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.
Jailing civilians at a military object matches pretty well. On other hand, defending army using protective urban terrain that hasn't been properly evacuated during an all-out surprise invasion? Not so obvious at all. To illustrate how difference exists and matters, from Amnesty 2009 report about
Operation Cast Lead:
Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups also violated international humanitarian law in their conduct within Gaza. They launched rockets and located military equipment and positions near civilian homes, endangering the lives of the inhabitants by exposing them to the risk of Israeli attacks. They also used empty homes and properties as combat positions during armed confrontations with Israeli forces, exposing the inhabitants of nearby houses to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.
[7] (pages 3-4)
However, contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials of the use of “human shields”, Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants.
I would also note that Amnesty did not hesitate to explicitly blame Israel for use of "human shields" in that same report (page 48), so the fact that it is not stated as such in Ukraine report is very much relevant. Trying to "balance" cases where multiple reliable sources have actually reported Russians using human shields, with a report which only blames Ukraine for endangering civilians but makes no clear claim about use of human shields would be quite clearly a false balance. We should stick here with sources which actually explicitly talk about military using civilians as shields, and not rely on curious alternative definitions wikipedians can come up.--
Staberinde (
talk)
09:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
We should stick here with sources which actually explicitly talk about military using civilians as shields, and not rely on curious alternative definitions wikipedians can come up"
Placement of military objectives near civilian objects and the use of human shields 34. OHCHR is concerned that in the course of hostilities, both Russian armed forces and affiliated armed groups as well as Ukrainian armed forces took up positions either in residential areas or near civilian objects, from where they launched military operations without taking measures for the protection of civilians present, as required under IHL.16 OHCHR is further concerned by reports of the use of human shields, which involves seeking to use the presence or movement of the civilian population or individual civilians to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. The use of human shields is specifically prohibited by article 28 of Geneva Convention IV and article 51(7) of additional protocol I. 35. OHCHR does not have reliable numbers on these cases, but the case of a care house in the village of Stara Krasnianka (Luhansk region) has been emblematic in this regard. At the beginning of March 2022, when active hostilities drew nearer to the care house, its management repeatedly requested local authorities to evacuate the residents. This was reportedly impossible as Ukrainian armed forces had allegedly mined the surrounding area and blocked roads. On 7 March, soldiers from Ukrainian armed forces entered the care house, where older persons and residents with disabilities and staff were located, as it had strategic value due to its proximity to an important road. On 9 March, soldiers from Russian affiliated armed groups, who were approaching from the opposite direction, engaged in an exchange of fire with soldiers from Ukrainian armed forces, although it remains unclear which side opened fire first. During this first exchange of fire, no staff or patients were injured. 36. On 11 March, 71 patients with disabilities and 15 staff, along with soldiers from Ukrainian armed forces, remained in the care house with no access to water or electricity. That morning, soldiers from Russian affiliated armed groups attacked the care house with heavy weapons, with patients and staff still inside. A fire started and spread across the care house while fighting was ongoing. Some staff and patients fled the care house and ran into the forest, until they were met five kilometers away by Russian affiliated armed groups, who provided them with assistance. According to various accounts, at least 22 patients survived the attack, but the exact number of persons killed remains unknown.Mhorg ( talk) 11:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Placement of military objectives near civilian objects and the use of human shields. As it happens, while report does describe Ukrainians placing military objectives near civilian objects, it makes no claim of Stara Krasnianka case being an actual attempt to use civilians to shield oneself against enemy attacks. This clearly contrasts to the same section's description of Russian army behavior at Yahidne where the report explicitly states:
The incident raises concerns that Russian armed forces used civilians to seek to render their base immune from military operations, .... We need to stick to information that is explicitly supported by the source.-- Staberinde ( talk) 21:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
[11] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/us/politics/pentagon-war-crimes-hague.html Chin2021 ( talk) 04:19, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
As usual
@ Volunteer Marek is removing Amnesty report on War crimes committed by Ukrianian forces, to give a santized version of how holy are Ukrianian forces.
They only job of this guy here for past 6 months is to remove this exact same Amnesty report each time Proud Indian Arnab ( talk) 14:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Clearly, "War crimes in the invasion of Ukraine" is a loaded title.So, if this acticle is to be seen as fair and balanced - and not pushing some US Point Of View - might it not be called: 'War crimes in the Russian/Ukraine conflict'? While war crimes happen on both side, do not some of the more wild and outlandish claims of Russian human rights outrages from the Ukrainian Govt need to be full addressed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.2.107 ( talk) 17:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Or are we to think the Ukrainian soldiers are angels and would never even think of it? This whole article loses credibility. The excuses used here as to the removal of the amnesty report is exactly the reason why more and more people are not supporting wikipedia. As much as you would love to censor subject matter that goes against your agenda or ideals you will never remove the doubt and lack of credibility for this article. Report both sides because everyone knows Ukraine is capable of war crimes as well otherwise your hypocrisy is showing. 2603:8001:600:A600:D7AC:CBC3:D156:14C9 ( talk) 14:47, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
The section on sexual violence might benefit from a mention of the infamous phone call where a Russian soldier asked his wife for permission to rape Ukrainian women during his service ( https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-rape-russian-soldier-wife-bykovsky/31805486.html). The wife was placed on an international wanted list: https://www.lbc.co.uk/world-news/russian-wife-soldier-husband-rape-ukrainian-women-international-wanted-list/
The section on national legal proceedings should also probably mention the reports that a Ukrainian soldier was indicted in Russia on charges of murder and mistreatment of civilians ( https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/17113235) and later pleaded "partly guilty" ( https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/ukraine-soldier-pleads-partly-guilty-to-war-crime-c-10257505), and that Russian tank commander Mykhail Kulikov was convicted of violating the laws and customs of war by shelling a civilian target ( https://www.kyivpost.com/post/1819). 213.31.56.201 ( talk) 10:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On 13 June 2023, Russian troops murdered 6 civilians in Sumy Oblast near Seredyna-Buda, mutilated their bodies, and then mined the place to kill people who tried to retrieve their bodies. They also blocked retrieval of bodies for 2 more days. This case is currently being investigated by Ukrainian authorities.
Sources: 1) prosecutor's office of Ukraine 2) https://tsn.ua/exclusive/rosiyska-drg-rozstrilyala-6-lisivnikiv-na-sumschini-i-pivtori-dobi-znuschalas-z-drona-podrobici-tragediyi-2350810.html?fbclid=IwAR2I0i6Gsa8Y15oHbYa5K6y2XkXG62GvF63l4_qC4zVbKwomBp4O1Pi49Ls 3) https://suspilne.media/507121-vnaslidok-artobstrilu-u-sostkinskomu-rajoni-zaginulo-sestero-lisnikiv-u-prokuraturi-vidkrili-kriminalne-provadzenna/
(Sadly, this case didn't get any foreign coverage, but these victims were family friends and i don't want this evil Russian act to be forgotten...) 2A00:102A:5002:8750:7D56:5855:1812:BC07 ( talk) 23:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
Can someone change "an Ukrainian" to "a Ukrainian", please. Jenny Jankel ( talk) 23:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
There is Consensus to add (much of) the information, but overall, the actual text of option 2 was Opposed for various reasons, including needing to be more neutral in tone. (The text of the section about Volodymyr Struk, in particular, was opposed.)
Kudos to Gitz for trying to find a way forward in the discussion, but from the discussion and survey comments, it would appear that starting over with new text would apparently be the next step/way to move forward.
So no prejudice, of course, against a follow-up discussion in order to try to hammer out new text. - jc37 06:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
This RfC concerns whether and how the article should report about killings of suspected collaborators of the Russian occupiers.
Option 1 (status quo). The article should not include a section on killings of suspected collaborators of the Russian occupiers.
Option 2 (proposed text). The article should include a section as the one proposed here below.
Option 3 (different text). The article should include a section different from the one proposed (specify how).
Proposed text
|
---|
Extrajudicial executions of suspected collaboratorsAs of 30 August nearly a dozen people had been killed and others injured in assassination attempts on collaborationists and Russian-appointed officials in the occupied territories. [1] Some of the attacks against high-ranking political collaborators were allegedly conducted by Ukrainian partisans led and trained by Ukrainian special forces. [2] On 2 March 2022 Volodymyr Struk, a pro-Russian mayor in the town of Kremnina, was abducted and shot dead by unknown gunmen. An advisor to the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, Anton Herashchenko, reported that Struk had been “judged by the public tribunal and apparently shot by unknown patriots as a traitor". [3] On 8 September, the Washington Post reported a wave of assassinations and attempted killings against Russian-appointed officials and Ukrainian collaborators, as Ukrainian hit squads and saboteurs gunned down, blown up, hanged and poisoned almost 20 people considered to be collaborators of the puppet governments of Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics. [4] The assassination campaign was described as raising questions "about extrajudicial killings and potential war crimes, particularly when the targets are political actors or civilians". [4] On 27 September, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights documented six killings of alleged "traitors" of Ukraine. The victims were local authority officials, policemen and civilians who were believed to have voluntarily cooperated with the enemy. According to OHCHR, these killings may have been committed by government agents or with their acquiescence and could constitute extrajudicial executions and war crimes. [5] References
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Persons taking no active part in the hostilities … shall in all circumstances be treated humanely) and the 1977 Additional Protocols. (By the way, it should be noted that at the time the opposite case was much more frequent: during WW2 Germany executed thousands of civilian "spies", "traitors" and "saboteurs". It is estimated that they sentenced 30,000 people to death for treason or desertion, 20,000 of whom were executed. Yet the Nuremberg Tribunal did not condemn high treason cases as crimes against humanity precisely because at the time international law, and in particular the law of armed conflict, was different from today – so no meaningful comparisons can be made.) However, the case of the killing by Hamas of Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel is comparable, and it has been considered a war crime by the United Nations (for references, see my comment above).
Non government Ukrainian partisan groups killing collaborators would be an example of political terrorism, but not war crimes. Actually war crimes can be committed also by civilians, and the same action may qualify both as "terrorism" under national criminal law and as a "war crime" under IHL if there's a nexus with an armed conflict. The OHCHR report says (para. 40) "As such, these killings may amount to extrajudicial executions and war crimes, and should be investigated and prosecuted accordingly". The OHCHR is referring to six documented killings of civilians perceived as "traitors", which "may have been perpetrated by agents of the Government of Ukraine or with their acquiescence". Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 16:36, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
if I’m not mistaken, I'm afraid you are mistaken. I don't know where you got this "two war crimes" figure, but the OHCHR speaks explicitly of a possible war crime in the case of the extrajudicial killing of suspected traitors. I copy and paste the text of the source below, as it may be of interest to all (emphasis mine).
- Extrajudicial executions of people perceived as so-called ‘traitors’
- 40. OHCHR documented six killings of civilians perceived as so-called ‘traitors’ against Ukraine for their alleged collaboration with the Russian Federation in territory occupied by it or controlled by Russian armed forces or affiliated armed groups since 24 February. While those who committed the killings remain unknown, OHCHR has concerns that some of these killings may have been perpetrated by agents of the Government of Ukraine or with their acquiescence.23 Most of the victims were former or active officials of local authorities, officers of law enforcement bodies or civilians who were believed to have voluntarily cooperated and worked with the occupation authorities. As these victims were civilians, they cannot be considered legitimate military targets.24 As such, these killings may amount to extrajudicial executions and war crimes, and should be investigated and prosecuted accordingly.
- footnote 23 For example, on 19 April, an advisor to the Minister of Internal Affairs stated on a talk show that “there is [a service] established and working in occupied territories. When you hear that someone in occupied territories ‘suddenly died’ – this is the work of our services”.
- footnote 24 See Geneva Convention III, art. 4 (a); Additional Protocol I, arts. 43 and 50.
— Report on the human rights situation in Ukraine, 1 February to 31 July 2022 (Report). OHCHR. 27 September 2022. para. 40. Retrieved 10 Oct 2022.
an image reportedly showing a damaged Russian military truck carrying three washing machines ... a call by a Russian soldier released by the Security Service of Ukraine included the soldier telling his girlfriend: "I stole some cosmetics for you") and " Sexual violence" (
A 52 year old woman was taken by Russian soldiers in occupied Izyum and repeatedly raped while her husband was beaten. The Russians forcibly undressed her, groped her, and told her that they would send photos of the activity to her family members, and it goes on an on for 137 words based on only one source). Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 15:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd be happy if we could come out of this RfC with a shared text. Those who !voted for option 3, Michael and Tristario, gave some indications, and also Alaexis said that they would drop the information on Struk. On this also Adoring nanny agrees. I agree with My very best wishes that it would be desirable if users who prefer option 3 were to propose a specific text to be included: maybe those who favour option 1 and 2 could also agree on that text. So I created this page where editors could modify the proposed text so as to make it more acceptable for everybody: Draft on collaborators. I already dropped the contentious paragraph on Struk. This section of the talk can be used for discussions. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 15:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Apparently this RfC isn't getting much traction, but we may already have a rough consensus. Apart from two/three editors, everybody agrees that we should have a section on killing of collaborators and, apart from one/two editors, everybody agrees that the proposed text needs to be modified. Option 3 is the middle ground most of us agree on. I think the following result could be OK to many:
the start of a list of all suspected partisan killings, implying that they all may be suspected war crimes, and encouraging the addition of every suspected partisan killing(Michael's concern).
brief(Tristario's concern).
necessary background from other journalistic sources, and link to appropriate articles on the separate subject like Ukrainian resistanceand provide more information about the
context of the killings, or modify the information already provided, if it's faulty or misleading.
Would this be acceptable? Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:42, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Hey @ Gitz6666:? Remember how you were arguing so strongly that violence committed by one side against its own people was also a "war crime"? How come you're not rushing to include the brutal murder of a Russian mercenary with a blow of a sledgehammer to the head by the Wagner group [27] [28] into this article? Volunteer Marek 01:42, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
This article is good. Kudos to editors
The Introduction seems long and gets into both chronological and categorical types of war crimes.
If no objections I am going to try and tighten it up and reflect the text structure of the article overall. Jgmac1106 ( talk) 16:21, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Many claims use United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine reports. Do people consider these primary sources that would violate independent research bias?
This would mean they should be replaced with secondary sources that cite the report.
Or do editors feel they are acceptable? Jgmac1106 ( talk) 16:25, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
An IP editor has added some information about Russian war crimes - castrations - at the eponymous Castration article, in this edit: [29]. I expect editors on this page are better able to evaluate that information than me. I'd be grateful if an editor here could glance over that edit to make sure it is in line with any discussions you have had here. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 18:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
2 more sources to add to this article:
Inaccuracy in the article: the article says "torture and mutilitation of Ukrainian prisoners of war" in the introduction, then lists the crimes of both sides in the next chapters. I propose to mention here also the Russians, after all, they were also tortured and murdered. 46.205.141.33 ( talk) 17:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)