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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Sixteen Waltzes, Op. 39 (Brahms) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 05:45, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
This article currently identifies Chopin's "ideal" as his schoolmate, Tytus Woyciechowski.
This is in error, as explained on " Talk:Chopin", in the section "Chopin's homosexuality"; and at " Talk:Tytus Woyciechowski".
Chopin's "ideal" (in the original Polish, ideał – "person of [his] dreams") is clearly the young singer, Konstancja Gładkowska, of whom he was enamored.
Nihil novi ( talk) 09:35, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Well I did, and I couldn‘t find any good points or reliable sources in the discussion of the two of you there either, which would justify deleting almost the whole article here - which you did.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 08:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
References
Well, Nihil novi didn‘t answer question 3 by now. And a publication more than 20 years old like John Rink’s is probably outdated anyway. I‘ll have a look at it though.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 11:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Off-topic
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On 12 November 2020 there were two edits by IPs from Zurich, Switzerland, where Moritz Weber is based. They concerned Weber;'s theories about Chopin's personal life. The IPs' edits were reverted by another editor, User:Nihil novi. The edits were then reinstated by the newly registered account User:Chip-chip-2020. They had the same tone, content and German punctuation as the Zurich IPs. User:Chip-chip-2020 has a single purpose. To prove that all of Chopin's relationships with women were a sham and that Chopin has or or more male lover, drawn from his schoolfriends. That is more more less a summary of Weber's theory. In addition Weber's webpage refers to the Chopin entry for de.wikipedia.org, with a clickable link: there is a complaint that the Weber theory's about Chopin keep getting reverted. Mathsci ( talk) 10:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Mathsci stop spreading such accusations on various talk pages, and remember the outcome of your request was void.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 09:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC) |
Chopin composed the third Waltz in D-flat major for Tytus Woyciechowski, who he often named „my dearest life“ in his letters. [1] He added the manuscript to the following letter, in which he also gives some hints on the interpretation of the piece.
„I already, perhaps unfortunately, have my ideal, whom I faithfully serve, […] about whom I dream, [...] who this morning inspired the little waltz I am sending to you. Take note of one passage marked with a +. No one knows anything about this but you. How sweet it would be for me to play it for you, my dearest Tytus. In the trio, the bass line should dominate up to the high E flat of the upper keyboard in the 5th bar, about which it is unnecessary to write to you, because you feel it. […] Forgive me for sending you the waltz, […] but upon my word I wanted to give you pleasure with it, because I love you madly.“ Frédéric Chopin to Tytus Woyciechowski, 3.10.1829. [1] [2]
-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 21:36, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
References
:0
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).But if you think the excerpt should include also the higher E-Flat in the right hand I can upload another one easily.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 21:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq:, for this classical music sub-stub, WP:CIR also applies. On Page 89 of the 1987 edition of "Chopin, Pianist and Teacher, as Viewed by His Pupils", Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger writes of Op. 70, No. 2:
"Although he never had the Waltzes [of op. 70] published, Chopin valued them highly, at least the one in F minor. I often heard him play it, and how incomparably! This nostalgic piece could be entitled Malinconia."
Of No. 3, he quotes nine bars from a letter of Chopin:
"In the trio, the bass melody must dominate until the violin's E-flat in the fifth bar ... but I don't need to tell you, because you'll feel it anyway."
In Talk:Frédéric Chopin#RFC: Chopin and Sexuality, the words straightwashing, homophobic and heteronormative have been introduced by Chip-chip-2020. George Sand used "Chip Chip" as one of her pet names for Frédéric Chopin. Mathsci ( talk) 04:25, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I believe there is absolutely no evidence about Chopin's sexuality so however obvious a conclusion might be, any source which declares something in this area as known fact is, by definition, not reliable because it is just someone's opinion." How accurate is my assessment about "no evidence"? Johnuniq ( talk) 10:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
All of these are WP:RS as Jeffrey Kallberg, Professor of Music at the University of Pennsylvania, is one of the world experts on Chopin. The pianist Angela Hewitt writes her own CD liners for Hyperion Records. In a same way, the CD liners for the Harnoncourt-Leonhardt Bach cantatas were written by Alfred Dürr, one of the main authorities on Bach. The recordings of John Eliot Gardiner were also written by Christoph Wolff, a Bach authority of the next generation. Having an image of Tytus Woyciechowski is WP:UNDUE (see the bio). On wikipedia, the relations between Chopin and his women are accurately described. They are mentioned in the article without having portraits or photographs. Mathsci ( talk) 14:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
I was pinged in an edit summary. Is this the same dispute as occurred at Frédéric Chopin? @Chip-chip-2020: I don't see that text in the main article where it could conceivably belong (if not WP:SYNTH). Trying alternatives of putting it in other articles would be a misuse of procedure. Please don't do that. If my vague recollection is correct, you must not edit war in an attempt to force the text into other articles given that a very long RfC failed to reach consensus. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:02, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | Classical music | |||
|
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Sixteen Waltzes, Op. 39 (Brahms) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 05:45, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
This article currently identifies Chopin's "ideal" as his schoolmate, Tytus Woyciechowski.
This is in error, as explained on " Talk:Chopin", in the section "Chopin's homosexuality"; and at " Talk:Tytus Woyciechowski".
Chopin's "ideal" (in the original Polish, ideał – "person of [his] dreams") is clearly the young singer, Konstancja Gładkowska, of whom he was enamored.
Nihil novi ( talk) 09:35, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Well I did, and I couldn‘t find any good points or reliable sources in the discussion of the two of you there either, which would justify deleting almost the whole article here - which you did.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 08:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
References
Well, Nihil novi didn‘t answer question 3 by now. And a publication more than 20 years old like John Rink’s is probably outdated anyway. I‘ll have a look at it though.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 11:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Off-topic
|
---|
On 12 November 2020 there were two edits by IPs from Zurich, Switzerland, where Moritz Weber is based. They concerned Weber;'s theories about Chopin's personal life. The IPs' edits were reverted by another editor, User:Nihil novi. The edits were then reinstated by the newly registered account User:Chip-chip-2020. They had the same tone, content and German punctuation as the Zurich IPs. User:Chip-chip-2020 has a single purpose. To prove that all of Chopin's relationships with women were a sham and that Chopin has or or more male lover, drawn from his schoolfriends. That is more more less a summary of Weber's theory. In addition Weber's webpage refers to the Chopin entry for de.wikipedia.org, with a clickable link: there is a complaint that the Weber theory's about Chopin keep getting reverted. Mathsci ( talk) 10:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Mathsci stop spreading such accusations on various talk pages, and remember the outcome of your request was void.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 09:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC) |
Chopin composed the third Waltz in D-flat major for Tytus Woyciechowski, who he often named „my dearest life“ in his letters. [1] He added the manuscript to the following letter, in which he also gives some hints on the interpretation of the piece.
„I already, perhaps unfortunately, have my ideal, whom I faithfully serve, […] about whom I dream, [...] who this morning inspired the little waltz I am sending to you. Take note of one passage marked with a +. No one knows anything about this but you. How sweet it would be for me to play it for you, my dearest Tytus. In the trio, the bass line should dominate up to the high E flat of the upper keyboard in the 5th bar, about which it is unnecessary to write to you, because you feel it. […] Forgive me for sending you the waltz, […] but upon my word I wanted to give you pleasure with it, because I love you madly.“ Frédéric Chopin to Tytus Woyciechowski, 3.10.1829. [1] [2]
-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 21:36, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
References
:0
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).But if you think the excerpt should include also the higher E-Flat in the right hand I can upload another one easily.-- Chip-chip-2020 ( talk) 21:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq:, for this classical music sub-stub, WP:CIR also applies. On Page 89 of the 1987 edition of "Chopin, Pianist and Teacher, as Viewed by His Pupils", Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger writes of Op. 70, No. 2:
"Although he never had the Waltzes [of op. 70] published, Chopin valued them highly, at least the one in F minor. I often heard him play it, and how incomparably! This nostalgic piece could be entitled Malinconia."
Of No. 3, he quotes nine bars from a letter of Chopin:
"In the trio, the bass melody must dominate until the violin's E-flat in the fifth bar ... but I don't need to tell you, because you'll feel it anyway."
In Talk:Frédéric Chopin#RFC: Chopin and Sexuality, the words straightwashing, homophobic and heteronormative have been introduced by Chip-chip-2020. George Sand used "Chip Chip" as one of her pet names for Frédéric Chopin. Mathsci ( talk) 04:25, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
I believe there is absolutely no evidence about Chopin's sexuality so however obvious a conclusion might be, any source which declares something in this area as known fact is, by definition, not reliable because it is just someone's opinion." How accurate is my assessment about "no evidence"? Johnuniq ( talk) 10:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
All of these are WP:RS as Jeffrey Kallberg, Professor of Music at the University of Pennsylvania, is one of the world experts on Chopin. The pianist Angela Hewitt writes her own CD liners for Hyperion Records. In a same way, the CD liners for the Harnoncourt-Leonhardt Bach cantatas were written by Alfred Dürr, one of the main authorities on Bach. The recordings of John Eliot Gardiner were also written by Christoph Wolff, a Bach authority of the next generation. Having an image of Tytus Woyciechowski is WP:UNDUE (see the bio). On wikipedia, the relations between Chopin and his women are accurately described. They are mentioned in the article without having portraits or photographs. Mathsci ( talk) 14:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
I was pinged in an edit summary. Is this the same dispute as occurred at Frédéric Chopin? @Chip-chip-2020: I don't see that text in the main article where it could conceivably belong (if not WP:SYNTH). Trying alternatives of putting it in other articles would be a misuse of procedure. Please don't do that. If my vague recollection is correct, you must not edit war in an attempt to force the text into other articles given that a very long RfC failed to reach consensus. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:02, 17 November 2021 (UTC)