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Walther von Brauchitsch article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Walther von Brauchitsch was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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It seems there is a confusion here. Was Brauchitsch commander-in-chief of the Army or of the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht, comprising Army, Navy and Air Foce)?
It seems several articles in Wikipedia do not make this distinction. Also, the term "Wehrmacht" is often used to indicate "Army" whereas, as mentioned above, "Wehrmacht" comprises three branches of the German armed forces, and sometimes including SA and SS.
What the...? I thought von Brauchitsch died in 1948. I've got sources from Britannica, the Compton reference desk, special anniversaries of 1948, the oxford companion to world war ii and Island farm (complete with an obituary scan from October 1948), and all say he died in 1948. But according to this Wikipedia article it says Von Brauchitsch died in 1946.
Looking at the histories, I see there were 2 changes made in November 2006, by User:84.144.223.154. Because these are 84.144.223.154's only contributions to Wikipedia (don't know if he logged in subsequently), 84.144.223.154 neglected to supply references (violation of numerous policies including WP:CITE, WP:V, WP:NOR), and I have references that say the contrary (84.144.223.154 supplies none. Sure, you can google loads of sites claiming he died in 1946, but then you realise all those sites are just Wikipedia mirrors / used information from Wikipedia). I have to assume that these edits are nothing more than vandalism.
Unfortunately, since then, it appears that many Wikipedians have been brought into this subtle change. User:Jackyd101, apparently duped into believing this was true, changed the category to point to 1946 deaths. A google search now reveals too many sites that believe he died in 1946, and this mis-information leaked into other pages on Wikipedia too (it was only after editing/sourcing Commanders of World War II that I discovered it).
Just in case I'm wrong, I'm giving everyone (particularly 84.144.223.154) a chance to explain themselves. Perhaps there was recent evidence that shows he died in 1946 (Remember, cite your sources. Verifiability, not truth). But if I do not receive an answer by 8th Jan, I'm reverting the change. -- Oshah 10:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to comment because I changed the date of death from 1948 to 1946 a while ago, I think on the category for year of death. I have no information on his date of death but was simply attempting to make sure that the article was consistent in the year given as the article quoted both 1946 and 1948. I used the date at the head of the page as my guiding date, but if it is incorrect then please by all means change it to the correct one. -- Jackyd101 11:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey, could we get a bit more context than just the 2 adjectives gutless and spineless? It isn't Kershaw didn't (correctly) use that language, but just put in abruptly it kind of makes poor Kershaw sound like he really had it in for Brauchitsch, which I didn't get from reading Nemesis. I bring it up because the old fashioned literature that used to talk up people like Halder really played heavily on how weak Brauchitsch's character, wheras now they're more lumped in together. A minor quibble. I'm sure Kershaw said it and I agree that it's right, it's just a bit decontextualized. 142.177.43.225 05:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Added on his order regarding criticism of German atrocities in Poland.-- Molobo ( talk) 00:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. I just spent about my entire day extremely significantly improving this article. This is how the article looked before my vast improvements. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 21:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Is the "Brauchitsch in media" section needed since it's only 3? Jonas Vinther ( talk) 19:41, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Cheers. :) Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:59, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
MisterBee1966, I have now added or massively expanded the section (or information) regarding his involvement in World War I, as well as changes we discussed above. :) Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a dispute about whether this edit belongs in the article. I suggest it's decided by a vote by using either support or oppose.
The reference list of foreign language books, journals etc. must provide the reader with the true identity of the source. Therefore the sources name is presented in its original foreign language title with a tag identifying it as a foreign language source. If possible a translation of the source to English is given. Providing only the translation gives the wrong illusion that the source is indeed in English. MisterBee1966 ( talk) 05:45, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
I will request or open an A-Class review of this article as that was the common advice during the FA-review. After that I will re-nominate it for FA-status. Jonas Vinther ( speak to me!) 15:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
During 2014, this article was expanded to about double its size, almost entirely by Jonas Vinther who is now under a TBAN for articles covering Nazi Germany. This is one of several problematic articles Jonas expanded. It was taken through GAN and then an unsuccessful FAC, after which the TBAN was put in place. One of the significant issues with this article is the quite heavy reliance on Hart, a book published in 1944 (the reliability of which is questionable given its age and that it was published during the war, and the inaccurate terminology used to describe von Brauchitsch's WWI service (indicating he was actively involved in battles when he was actually a staff officer). There are also a significant number of unaddressed issues raised during the unsuccessful FAC and the peer review before that. In essence, I believe that the article has significant issues with criteria 2b., 2c. and 4. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 04:34, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
"Well, there is a bio-book on Brauchitsch from 2001 I have access to. However, I decided to use Hart instead precisely because it was written in 1944, where the existence of the Holocaust was not yet known, which make Harts bio on Brauchitsch more neutral (in my opinion). - JV"
Summary: Six editors support delisting, with zero opposing. Per WP:Snow, should I go ahead and delist? Or somebody else wants to do it? K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
HI, just a quick note about a current discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history (WWII content: Otto Kittel, other GA/FA articles) that editors of this page may be interested in. K.e.coffman ( talk)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Walther von Brauchitsch article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Walther von Brauchitsch was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Walther von Brauchitsch. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Walther von Brauchitsch at the Reference desk. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It seems there is a confusion here. Was Brauchitsch commander-in-chief of the Army or of the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht, comprising Army, Navy and Air Foce)?
It seems several articles in Wikipedia do not make this distinction. Also, the term "Wehrmacht" is often used to indicate "Army" whereas, as mentioned above, "Wehrmacht" comprises three branches of the German armed forces, and sometimes including SA and SS.
What the...? I thought von Brauchitsch died in 1948. I've got sources from Britannica, the Compton reference desk, special anniversaries of 1948, the oxford companion to world war ii and Island farm (complete with an obituary scan from October 1948), and all say he died in 1948. But according to this Wikipedia article it says Von Brauchitsch died in 1946.
Looking at the histories, I see there were 2 changes made in November 2006, by User:84.144.223.154. Because these are 84.144.223.154's only contributions to Wikipedia (don't know if he logged in subsequently), 84.144.223.154 neglected to supply references (violation of numerous policies including WP:CITE, WP:V, WP:NOR), and I have references that say the contrary (84.144.223.154 supplies none. Sure, you can google loads of sites claiming he died in 1946, but then you realise all those sites are just Wikipedia mirrors / used information from Wikipedia). I have to assume that these edits are nothing more than vandalism.
Unfortunately, since then, it appears that many Wikipedians have been brought into this subtle change. User:Jackyd101, apparently duped into believing this was true, changed the category to point to 1946 deaths. A google search now reveals too many sites that believe he died in 1946, and this mis-information leaked into other pages on Wikipedia too (it was only after editing/sourcing Commanders of World War II that I discovered it).
Just in case I'm wrong, I'm giving everyone (particularly 84.144.223.154) a chance to explain themselves. Perhaps there was recent evidence that shows he died in 1946 (Remember, cite your sources. Verifiability, not truth). But if I do not receive an answer by 8th Jan, I'm reverting the change. -- Oshah 10:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to comment because I changed the date of death from 1948 to 1946 a while ago, I think on the category for year of death. I have no information on his date of death but was simply attempting to make sure that the article was consistent in the year given as the article quoted both 1946 and 1948. I used the date at the head of the page as my guiding date, but if it is incorrect then please by all means change it to the correct one. -- Jackyd101 11:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey, could we get a bit more context than just the 2 adjectives gutless and spineless? It isn't Kershaw didn't (correctly) use that language, but just put in abruptly it kind of makes poor Kershaw sound like he really had it in for Brauchitsch, which I didn't get from reading Nemesis. I bring it up because the old fashioned literature that used to talk up people like Halder really played heavily on how weak Brauchitsch's character, wheras now they're more lumped in together. A minor quibble. I'm sure Kershaw said it and I agree that it's right, it's just a bit decontextualized. 142.177.43.225 05:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Added on his order regarding criticism of German atrocities in Poland.-- Molobo ( talk) 00:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. I just spent about my entire day extremely significantly improving this article. This is how the article looked before my vast improvements. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 21:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Is the "Brauchitsch in media" section needed since it's only 3? Jonas Vinther ( talk) 19:41, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Cheers. :) Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:59, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
MisterBee1966, I have now added or massively expanded the section (or information) regarding his involvement in World War I, as well as changes we discussed above. :) Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a dispute about whether this edit belongs in the article. I suggest it's decided by a vote by using either support or oppose.
The reference list of foreign language books, journals etc. must provide the reader with the true identity of the source. Therefore the sources name is presented in its original foreign language title with a tag identifying it as a foreign language source. If possible a translation of the source to English is given. Providing only the translation gives the wrong illusion that the source is indeed in English. MisterBee1966 ( talk) 05:45, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
I will request or open an A-Class review of this article as that was the common advice during the FA-review. After that I will re-nominate it for FA-status. Jonas Vinther ( speak to me!) 15:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
During 2014, this article was expanded to about double its size, almost entirely by Jonas Vinther who is now under a TBAN for articles covering Nazi Germany. This is one of several problematic articles Jonas expanded. It was taken through GAN and then an unsuccessful FAC, after which the TBAN was put in place. One of the significant issues with this article is the quite heavy reliance on Hart, a book published in 1944 (the reliability of which is questionable given its age and that it was published during the war, and the inaccurate terminology used to describe von Brauchitsch's WWI service (indicating he was actively involved in battles when he was actually a staff officer). There are also a significant number of unaddressed issues raised during the unsuccessful FAC and the peer review before that. In essence, I believe that the article has significant issues with criteria 2b., 2c. and 4. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 04:34, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
"Well, there is a bio-book on Brauchitsch from 2001 I have access to. However, I decided to use Hart instead precisely because it was written in 1944, where the existence of the Holocaust was not yet known, which make Harts bio on Brauchitsch more neutral (in my opinion). - JV"
Summary: Six editors support delisting, with zero opposing. Per WP:Snow, should I go ahead and delist? Or somebody else wants to do it? K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
HI, just a quick note about a current discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history (WWII content: Otto Kittel, other GA/FA articles) that editors of this page may be interested in. K.e.coffman ( talk)