Wales national rugby union team is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 19, 2019. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Featured article |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Wales national rugby union team was copied or moved into History of the Wales national rugby union team (2004–present) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
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To-do: Updated 2007-11-11
Pending tasks:
Resources |
"The Welsh supporters have a reputation for being amongst the most fanatical in the rugby union world, making the Millennium Stadium, the team's home ground, a particularly intimidating place."
The above is a matter of opinion....The millennium stadium isn't in the least bit intimidating - especially if you've ever been to an English sports stadium, where fans like to boo the opposing team. I've therefore removed it. Trystan Morris-Davies 15:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I didn't write it, but England at least do find Wales a difficult place to play rugby, which is why they tend to stay overnight in Bristol and simply drive to Cardiff on the day of the match and return immediately afterwards. I think there is a certain amount of truth to it. GordyB 16:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think Image:Wru logo.jpg should be used instead of Image:Wru logo.png, which was swapped around recently. The current version, which is a little transparent, is not really used anywhere else, notably the WRU website... Cvene64 12:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Was thinking that the list of notable players is quite large. Although it's good to have some names on there I think a large list doesn't add much useful content to the article (see WP:LIST). I think there should be some common criteria for inclusion that reduces the size of the list. Also at the top of the section there could be a link to the category of Welsh Rugby Players. I think the one universal criteria should be that there is an article of more then stub quality (start, B-class, GA class or FA class) on the player. Other then that they could be:
Any other suggestions? - Shudda talk 10:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
What type of criteria is being used to determine who goes in this list? Is there any at all? If not, I think we should discuss what should constitute a players notability for inclusion. I don't really have any huge problems with it at all, I just think we should come up with some sort of set of guidelines..yeah? Narrasawa 10:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This has now been changed so that it is consistent with All Blacks and France national rugby union team articles which are both Featured Articles. The criteria they use is International Rugby Hall of Fame inductees. Now the section is prose with a brief (two to three sentences) on each member. There are nine from Wales so that is quite a few. Any comments let me know, but I know that this is not considered WP:OR as when the France article went through WP:FAC we had a list of ten players. There were objections and it was changed. So this way will avoid that. - Shudde talk 10:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there any purpose in using the flag to note that the players in the squad are Welsh? If we want to be pedantic then surely the flags of England, New Zealand and Australia would be better for Charvis, Parker an Cockbain, but if we are saying that those three are Welsh by virtue of them being in the Wales squad, the flags are redundant are they not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blogdroed ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't see any point either jojo 15:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojonesey ( talk • contribs)
There is a lack of photos in Wikipedia Commons... So if you're a welsh contributor or if you see some Wales national rugby union team's match, please take some photos and the rights to put them in Commons to better Welsh footballer articles and Wales national rugby union team's article... thanks a lot and good work... Many pleasure... Specially for the period 1920-1990 Ddfree 09:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Nobody wants (or is able) to better this article in order to make a featured article...
I come from Wales and I want to know what this buisiness of Australia winning the Grand Slam in the Five Nations Tournament is about. As far as I know, the Five Nations were Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland and France. Please tell me if I'm wrong!!! jojo 15:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
"Modern era (1983–present)
... Australia defeated Wales 28–9 at Cardiff Arms Park. At the time, this was the most points scored against Wales at Cardiff, and the first time they conceded a push-over try there; Australia went on to win their first Grand Slam.[44]"
Incorrect. Scotland beat Wales 18-34 in the 1982 Five Nations championship. Further, the [44] link takes you to 'Rugby Milestones', granted, but there's nothing on the page about Australia's Grand Slam tour in 1984. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anselm53 ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Removed again. The reason being that it doesn't fit. If you are prepared to do the immense amount of work that would make it work properly then go ahead but otherwise don't add it please. Currently it is not a succession box at all because it has not been added to England or France. GordyB 10:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I have assessed this article for Good Article status, and have decided to put it on hold for a week. It almost meets the Good Article criteria, but there are a few minor improvements that need to be made. If these are corrected, then it can be promoted to GA status.
Overall: On hold for a week until these improvements are made. If they are, it should pass. Terraxos 15:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has been started about the breadth and formatting of succession boxes for national rugby union teams at WikiProject Rugby union. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Succession boxes. - Shudde talk 22:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think a comprehensive list of coaches is needed at all. The head coach is listed, who cares who the physiotherapist and nutritionist are? Let us put it this way, would they warrant there own article on wikipedia? My guess is no. Gatland is the head coach, and there are no co-coaches appointments. I have removed this for now, certainly at the FAC there was no complaint's that the misc staff were not included, and it's the same at the other national teams that have passed through an FAC. - Shudde talk 01:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Can someone update the new page with Wales's new strip? I would myself but i dont know how! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshguyowen ( talk • contribs) 11:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Why is 1982 selected as the end point? My ancient BBC video The Crowning Years covers the period 1969-79. A book on the subject [2] defines the golden age as 1968-80. 1982 does seem too late - in 1980 and 1981, Welsh performances in the Five Nations were mediocre and England and France (respectively) won the Grand Slam. Pondle ( talk) 17:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Titles should always be capitalised in including the first and last word no matter the length, minor words should be lower case but all other words in a titles should be uppercase (captialised), see: Collins Cobuild English Usage Helping Learners with Real English 1999. Ieuan Sant ( talk) 12:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
I show a posting below that I received last night on my talk page, together with my reply, and the user's response:
Bread of Heaven
I enjoyed your collection of flags at the top of this page.
I know (the English version of) the hymn that includes the line "bread of heaven". In fact, it is right up at the top of my favorites. But please tell me what is the specific connection between Welsh rugby and "bread of heaven".
Thanks, Wanderer57 ( talk) 22:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Cwm Rhondda is a very well known Welsh hymn tune. First performed in 1907. Cwm Rhondda translates as "the Rondda Valley" in English, and more often than not, sung to the words: Guide me, O thou great Redeemer. Wales rugby union supporters adopted it years ago, although the reason is not understood, apart from the fact that it is an inspiring song which everyone knew (Sundays in chapel) and could keep repeating, and repeating... I think it splendid.
- It was sung at the funerals of both Princess Diana and the Queen Mother, and at the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton.
- Gareth Griffith-Jones ( talk) 23:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is indeed splendid, both tune and words. The version I learned (in the United Church of Canada) began Guide me, O thou great Jehovah.
- The part of the story I did not know was its adoption by the Rugby union. A great anthem, known to everyone in Wales. I guess it is a natural. Wanderer57 ( talk) 03:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I am wondering if you would be kind enough to add below any knowledge you may have on this topic.
Many thanks for your time.
With kindest regards,
The words are by William Williams, Pantycelyn 1717-1791 originally as "Arglwydd Arwain Trwy'r Anialwch" it was translated from the Welsh by Peter Williams 1723 - 1796. The tune is by John Hughes, 1873-1932 — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlwynapHuw ( talk • contribs) 06:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! For all those interested in improving content relating to Welsh Rugby there will be a Rugby World Cup Edit-a-thon at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff on September 7th. Please spread the word, and sign up here Jason.nlw ( talk) 13:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I have split off the material from the "Revival (2004–present)" section: History of the Wales national rugby union team (2004–present). I've done this because that section was regularly getting material added to it, and often it was adding undue weight to more recent results (a case of recentism). If superfluous material is added to the history section, would any watchers of this talk page please move the material to the new article, and keep the subsection a brief summary of results since 2005. Thanks. -- Shudde talk 00:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
This article was promoted way back in November 2007. Things have changed since then, and the quality of the article has regressed. I've been going through and polishing it up to try and get it to a state where it can be proudly featured on the main page. This is ongoing, but at the moment I'm focused on getting all the references up to scratch. I've been copy editing as I go, but there is still work to be done. I've been trying to ensure that all the web-based references are reliable, and to replace those that may go dead. Other than that the notable players sections probably needs to be copy-edited as well, as it's size has increased since 2007. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Shudde talk 00:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Listing here does not imply that their current sourcing is inadequate, just that better ones may exist. In fact many are well sourced, but finding offline sources would be very useful.
Checking source:
-- Shudde talk 06:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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It wasn't official, but would it still be considered okay to mention the fact that they were number one? Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trivia sections says that occassional exceptions can apply to sources that may otherwise be considered trivia. source is here-- 114.23.252.56 ( talk) 02:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
In the ‘Overall’ section are two tables: “Men's World Rugby Rankings”, and overall scores against all opponents. If the browser window isn’t very wide, these two tables bump up against each other. At least one table should be moved. My preference, but not strongly held, is that the scores table should be at the start of the ‘History’ section. can anybody else see a better place for it? JDAWiseman ( talk) 11:27, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
@
PeeJay2K3: Hi, you reverted my scoreline fixes saying "the higher score always comes first"
. Yes that is generally true when match scores are quoted on TV and in other media, but for encyclopedic purposes this is not the case. When scores are stated inline within the text you would normally put the score that applies to the subject of the sentence first, i.e. if England defeated Wales and the final match score was 14–12 to England (say) then Wales would have lost 12–14 because Wales is the subject and their score appears first in the scoreline. It would make no sense to say "Wales lost 14–12" because 14 is higher than 12 and if Wales (the subject of the sentence) got 14 then they must have won. I do a lot of work on snooker articles and although there isn't an equivalent MOS for rugby, I can point you to the place where this scoreline rule is covered for snooker:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Snooker#Score format says "generally give scores in the same order that the players are mentioned in the sentence" i.e. Team/Player1 suffered a 5–8 defeat to Team/Player2. I'd assumed this rule applied to other sports as it does seem logical, but maybe not. Certainly the England rugby article follows that rule and always has done and no-one has ever questioned it. Maybe this is a good time and place to have a general discussion about it?
Rodney Baggins (
talk)
17:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
utter nonsenseas I've explained in some detail my reasoning above. Did you look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Snooker#Score format? In cue sports, the figure that comes first in the scoreline applies to the player that is the subject of the sentence, i.e. the one that is governed by the verb. This purely hypothetical example might make it clearer what I'm talking about:
"the order of scores matches the syntax of the sentence"so if the subject is the losing player/team, then their score is placed first in the scoreline. He also says
"it's not possible to lose 15–3"The fundamental point is that this is all about grammar and semantics, in that the sentence needs to be structured using logic and it's not a matter of "common parlance". It's simply not logical to say "Team X lost 25-14" because if the 25 applies to Team X (as it should because it follows directly on from subject/verb) and the 14 applies to the other team, then Team X won. It's just logic. We're not stating a match result, we're trying to construct a grammatically correct sentence. The longwinded solution would be to say "Team X lost the match; the final score was 25-14" which implies that Team X got 14 because they lost, but the true abbreviated statement would be "Team X lost 14-25". In other words, "Team X lost by [their] 14 points to [the other team's] 25 points". We might not be able to agree on this, but it's an interesting conundrum. I might start off an RfC at some point as it would be great to get other POVs. The BBC Sport article does say that Ronnie was "5-3 down" but that neither proves nor disproves the point. I do think the BBC writer got it wrong, or was at least careless with his choice of words, and of course I'd prefer "3-5 down". We might say the player was "at the wrong end" of a 5-3 scoreline, but not that he was "5-3 down" because that is logically nonsensical. Thanks to Stanton and Lee for your input. Rodney Baggins ( talk) 22:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Wales national rugby union team is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 19, 2019. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Wales national rugby union team was copied or moved into History of the Wales national rugby union team (2004–present) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
To-do: Updated 2007-11-11
Pending tasks:
Resources |
"The Welsh supporters have a reputation for being amongst the most fanatical in the rugby union world, making the Millennium Stadium, the team's home ground, a particularly intimidating place."
The above is a matter of opinion....The millennium stadium isn't in the least bit intimidating - especially if you've ever been to an English sports stadium, where fans like to boo the opposing team. I've therefore removed it. Trystan Morris-Davies 15:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I didn't write it, but England at least do find Wales a difficult place to play rugby, which is why they tend to stay overnight in Bristol and simply drive to Cardiff on the day of the match and return immediately afterwards. I think there is a certain amount of truth to it. GordyB 16:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think Image:Wru logo.jpg should be used instead of Image:Wru logo.png, which was swapped around recently. The current version, which is a little transparent, is not really used anywhere else, notably the WRU website... Cvene64 12:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Was thinking that the list of notable players is quite large. Although it's good to have some names on there I think a large list doesn't add much useful content to the article (see WP:LIST). I think there should be some common criteria for inclusion that reduces the size of the list. Also at the top of the section there could be a link to the category of Welsh Rugby Players. I think the one universal criteria should be that there is an article of more then stub quality (start, B-class, GA class or FA class) on the player. Other then that they could be:
Any other suggestions? - Shudda talk 10:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
What type of criteria is being used to determine who goes in this list? Is there any at all? If not, I think we should discuss what should constitute a players notability for inclusion. I don't really have any huge problems with it at all, I just think we should come up with some sort of set of guidelines..yeah? Narrasawa 10:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This has now been changed so that it is consistent with All Blacks and France national rugby union team articles which are both Featured Articles. The criteria they use is International Rugby Hall of Fame inductees. Now the section is prose with a brief (two to three sentences) on each member. There are nine from Wales so that is quite a few. Any comments let me know, but I know that this is not considered WP:OR as when the France article went through WP:FAC we had a list of ten players. There were objections and it was changed. So this way will avoid that. - Shudde talk 10:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there any purpose in using the flag to note that the players in the squad are Welsh? If we want to be pedantic then surely the flags of England, New Zealand and Australia would be better for Charvis, Parker an Cockbain, but if we are saying that those three are Welsh by virtue of them being in the Wales squad, the flags are redundant are they not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blogdroed ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't see any point either jojo 15:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojonesey ( talk • contribs)
There is a lack of photos in Wikipedia Commons... So if you're a welsh contributor or if you see some Wales national rugby union team's match, please take some photos and the rights to put them in Commons to better Welsh footballer articles and Wales national rugby union team's article... thanks a lot and good work... Many pleasure... Specially for the period 1920-1990 Ddfree 09:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Nobody wants (or is able) to better this article in order to make a featured article...
I come from Wales and I want to know what this buisiness of Australia winning the Grand Slam in the Five Nations Tournament is about. As far as I know, the Five Nations were Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland and France. Please tell me if I'm wrong!!! jojo 15:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
"Modern era (1983–present)
... Australia defeated Wales 28–9 at Cardiff Arms Park. At the time, this was the most points scored against Wales at Cardiff, and the first time they conceded a push-over try there; Australia went on to win their first Grand Slam.[44]"
Incorrect. Scotland beat Wales 18-34 in the 1982 Five Nations championship. Further, the [44] link takes you to 'Rugby Milestones', granted, but there's nothing on the page about Australia's Grand Slam tour in 1984. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anselm53 ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Removed again. The reason being that it doesn't fit. If you are prepared to do the immense amount of work that would make it work properly then go ahead but otherwise don't add it please. Currently it is not a succession box at all because it has not been added to England or France. GordyB 10:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I have assessed this article for Good Article status, and have decided to put it on hold for a week. It almost meets the Good Article criteria, but there are a few minor improvements that need to be made. If these are corrected, then it can be promoted to GA status.
Overall: On hold for a week until these improvements are made. If they are, it should pass. Terraxos 15:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has been started about the breadth and formatting of succession boxes for national rugby union teams at WikiProject Rugby union. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Succession boxes. - Shudde talk 22:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think a comprehensive list of coaches is needed at all. The head coach is listed, who cares who the physiotherapist and nutritionist are? Let us put it this way, would they warrant there own article on wikipedia? My guess is no. Gatland is the head coach, and there are no co-coaches appointments. I have removed this for now, certainly at the FAC there was no complaint's that the misc staff were not included, and it's the same at the other national teams that have passed through an FAC. - Shudde talk 01:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Can someone update the new page with Wales's new strip? I would myself but i dont know how! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshguyowen ( talk • contribs) 11:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Why is 1982 selected as the end point? My ancient BBC video The Crowning Years covers the period 1969-79. A book on the subject [2] defines the golden age as 1968-80. 1982 does seem too late - in 1980 and 1981, Welsh performances in the Five Nations were mediocre and England and France (respectively) won the Grand Slam. Pondle ( talk) 17:33, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Titles should always be capitalised in including the first and last word no matter the length, minor words should be lower case but all other words in a titles should be uppercase (captialised), see: Collins Cobuild English Usage Helping Learners with Real English 1999. Ieuan Sant ( talk) 12:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
I show a posting below that I received last night on my talk page, together with my reply, and the user's response:
Bread of Heaven
I enjoyed your collection of flags at the top of this page.
I know (the English version of) the hymn that includes the line "bread of heaven". In fact, it is right up at the top of my favorites. But please tell me what is the specific connection between Welsh rugby and "bread of heaven".
Thanks, Wanderer57 ( talk) 22:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Cwm Rhondda is a very well known Welsh hymn tune. First performed in 1907. Cwm Rhondda translates as "the Rondda Valley" in English, and more often than not, sung to the words: Guide me, O thou great Redeemer. Wales rugby union supporters adopted it years ago, although the reason is not understood, apart from the fact that it is an inspiring song which everyone knew (Sundays in chapel) and could keep repeating, and repeating... I think it splendid.
- It was sung at the funerals of both Princess Diana and the Queen Mother, and at the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton.
- Gareth Griffith-Jones ( talk) 23:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is indeed splendid, both tune and words. The version I learned (in the United Church of Canada) began Guide me, O thou great Jehovah.
- The part of the story I did not know was its adoption by the Rugby union. A great anthem, known to everyone in Wales. I guess it is a natural. Wanderer57 ( talk) 03:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I am wondering if you would be kind enough to add below any knowledge you may have on this topic.
Many thanks for your time.
With kindest regards,
The words are by William Williams, Pantycelyn 1717-1791 originally as "Arglwydd Arwain Trwy'r Anialwch" it was translated from the Welsh by Peter Williams 1723 - 1796. The tune is by John Hughes, 1873-1932 — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlwynapHuw ( talk • contribs) 06:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! For all those interested in improving content relating to Welsh Rugby there will be a Rugby World Cup Edit-a-thon at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff on September 7th. Please spread the word, and sign up here Jason.nlw ( talk) 13:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I have split off the material from the "Revival (2004–present)" section: History of the Wales national rugby union team (2004–present). I've done this because that section was regularly getting material added to it, and often it was adding undue weight to more recent results (a case of recentism). If superfluous material is added to the history section, would any watchers of this talk page please move the material to the new article, and keep the subsection a brief summary of results since 2005. Thanks. -- Shudde talk 00:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
This article was promoted way back in November 2007. Things have changed since then, and the quality of the article has regressed. I've been going through and polishing it up to try and get it to a state where it can be proudly featured on the main page. This is ongoing, but at the moment I'm focused on getting all the references up to scratch. I've been copy editing as I go, but there is still work to be done. I've been trying to ensure that all the web-based references are reliable, and to replace those that may go dead. Other than that the notable players sections probably needs to be copy-edited as well, as it's size has increased since 2007. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Shudde talk 00:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Listing here does not imply that their current sourcing is inadequate, just that better ones may exist. In fact many are well sourced, but finding offline sources would be very useful.
Checking source:
-- Shudde talk 06:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Wales national rugby union team. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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It wasn't official, but would it still be considered okay to mention the fact that they were number one? Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trivia sections says that occassional exceptions can apply to sources that may otherwise be considered trivia. source is here-- 114.23.252.56 ( talk) 02:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
In the ‘Overall’ section are two tables: “Men's World Rugby Rankings”, and overall scores against all opponents. If the browser window isn’t very wide, these two tables bump up against each other. At least one table should be moved. My preference, but not strongly held, is that the scores table should be at the start of the ‘History’ section. can anybody else see a better place for it? JDAWiseman ( talk) 11:27, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
@
PeeJay2K3: Hi, you reverted my scoreline fixes saying "the higher score always comes first"
. Yes that is generally true when match scores are quoted on TV and in other media, but for encyclopedic purposes this is not the case. When scores are stated inline within the text you would normally put the score that applies to the subject of the sentence first, i.e. if England defeated Wales and the final match score was 14–12 to England (say) then Wales would have lost 12–14 because Wales is the subject and their score appears first in the scoreline. It would make no sense to say "Wales lost 14–12" because 14 is higher than 12 and if Wales (the subject of the sentence) got 14 then they must have won. I do a lot of work on snooker articles and although there isn't an equivalent MOS for rugby, I can point you to the place where this scoreline rule is covered for snooker:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Snooker#Score format says "generally give scores in the same order that the players are mentioned in the sentence" i.e. Team/Player1 suffered a 5–8 defeat to Team/Player2. I'd assumed this rule applied to other sports as it does seem logical, but maybe not. Certainly the England rugby article follows that rule and always has done and no-one has ever questioned it. Maybe this is a good time and place to have a general discussion about it?
Rodney Baggins (
talk)
17:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
utter nonsenseas I've explained in some detail my reasoning above. Did you look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Snooker#Score format? In cue sports, the figure that comes first in the scoreline applies to the player that is the subject of the sentence, i.e. the one that is governed by the verb. This purely hypothetical example might make it clearer what I'm talking about:
"the order of scores matches the syntax of the sentence"so if the subject is the losing player/team, then their score is placed first in the scoreline. He also says
"it's not possible to lose 15–3"The fundamental point is that this is all about grammar and semantics, in that the sentence needs to be structured using logic and it's not a matter of "common parlance". It's simply not logical to say "Team X lost 25-14" because if the 25 applies to Team X (as it should because it follows directly on from subject/verb) and the 14 applies to the other team, then Team X won. It's just logic. We're not stating a match result, we're trying to construct a grammatically correct sentence. The longwinded solution would be to say "Team X lost the match; the final score was 25-14" which implies that Team X got 14 because they lost, but the true abbreviated statement would be "Team X lost 14-25". In other words, "Team X lost by [their] 14 points to [the other team's] 25 points". We might not be able to agree on this, but it's an interesting conundrum. I might start off an RfC at some point as it would be great to get other POVs. The BBC Sport article does say that Ronnie was "5-3 down" but that neither proves nor disproves the point. I do think the BBC writer got it wrong, or was at least careless with his choice of words, and of course I'd prefer "3-5 down". We might say the player was "at the wrong end" of a 5-3 scoreline, but not that he was "5-3 down" because that is logically nonsensical. Thanks to Stanton and Lee for your input. Rodney Baggins ( talk) 22:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)