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Comment: why not just "
Vladimir Smirnov (skier)"? In general, Russian people are not mentioned with their
patronymic in wikipedia. And there aren't more skiers with the same name, are there? The redirect links to Smirnov.
HandsomeFella (
talk) 07:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)reply
There are a few other
Vladimir Smirnovs, patronymics are sometimes used as a disambiguator for Russian people on Wikipedia, it's a moot point whether this is better than e.g "skier".
PatGallacher (
talk) 11:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Don't you think it's more likely that people know that he's a skier, than that his patronymic is Mikhaylovich?
HandsomeFella (
talk) 11:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Requested move 2
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move.
Jafeluv (
talk) 12:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)reply
– (Relisted.) It seems to me that the
patronymic is ill-suited as a disambiguator, and should not be used as such until really needed. People are much less likely to know a notable person's patronymic than what he/she indeed is notable for, when the name is searched for, or when the name is appearing in a list (e.g. a category such as "xxxx births").
HandsomeFella (
talk) 19:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Excellent idea. I hate disambiguating Russian people when patronymics are used. People are far more likely to know that a person is a skier/footballer/politician/etc than what their patronymic is.
Jenks24 (
talk) 03:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I tend to agree that "the
patronymic is ill-suited as a disambiguator, and should not be used as such until really needed. People are much less likely to know a notable person's patronymic than what he/she indeed is notable for..." I think this has come up in similar move discussions before but I can't remember where.
WP:NCRUS doesn't address it either. It's something warranting a discussion so I'll post a note at
WT:WikiProject Russia and
WT:Disambiguation. —
AjaxSmack 03:22, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support per above.
bd2412T 04:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Per all the above, but there are Russophile (my read) editors who prefer the patronymic method as the more authentic Russian.
PЄTЄRS J V ►
TALK 04:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: I've heard – but I'm far from certain – that the patronymic is used only on formal occasions or when you know a person well. In other words, you don't speak of
Putin as Vladimir Vladimirovich, unless you – and those present – know him fairly well. I think this (if true) further discourages the use of patronymics in wikipedia.
HandsomeFella (
talk) 11:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Traditionally, it's the proper way to address someone that you don't know well. But in modern use, especially in English sources, it's often not used. --
Born2cycle (
talk) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Without getting into evolution and varieties of conjugation, its use is primarily in polite (formal) conversation, where using the first name only is considered intimate, while not knowing someone's patronymic is a potential source of embarrassment (so, address and refer to others by given and patronymic). At least in the not too old days. As for use of the full name including patronymic, that's mainly in deference in the third person. (Patronymics were once reserved for the nobility and higher classes.)
PЄTЄRS J V ►
TALK 05:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support: a bracketed disambiguator will be much more useful for a reader trying to find the person they are looking for in a category or other list.
PamD 07:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: although
WP:QUALIFIER is not explicit on this point, the example given there of
William Henry (actor) shows someone who could have been distinguished by his middle name as
William Albert Henry but is not: given name + surname + bracketed qualifier being preferred.
PamD 08:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support --
♫GoP♫TCN 14:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Support in general. Obvious exception is whenever someone is commonly referenced with the patronymic in reliable English sources. --
Born2cycle (
talk) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Even though I think it was me who moved some of these to a patronymic form, that was quite some years ago. The fact that the search box now offers suggestions as one types the search string in makes disambiguation by occupation more helpful to readers than disambiguation by patronymic.—
Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (
yo?); October 13, 2011; 16:18 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Olympics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Olympics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article has been
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bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
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Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
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WikiProject Skiing and Snowboarding, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Comment: why not just "
Vladimir Smirnov (skier)"? In general, Russian people are not mentioned with their
patronymic in wikipedia. And there aren't more skiers with the same name, are there? The redirect links to Smirnov.
HandsomeFella (
talk) 07:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)reply
There are a few other
Vladimir Smirnovs, patronymics are sometimes used as a disambiguator for Russian people on Wikipedia, it's a moot point whether this is better than e.g "skier".
PatGallacher (
talk) 11:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Don't you think it's more likely that people know that he's a skier, than that his patronymic is Mikhaylovich?
HandsomeFella (
talk) 11:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 2
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move.
Jafeluv (
talk) 12:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)reply
– (Relisted.) It seems to me that the
patronymic is ill-suited as a disambiguator, and should not be used as such until really needed. People are much less likely to know a notable person's patronymic than what he/she indeed is notable for, when the name is searched for, or when the name is appearing in a list (e.g. a category such as "xxxx births").
HandsomeFella (
talk) 19:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Excellent idea. I hate disambiguating Russian people when patronymics are used. People are far more likely to know that a person is a skier/footballer/politician/etc than what their patronymic is.
Jenks24 (
talk) 03:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I tend to agree that "the
patronymic is ill-suited as a disambiguator, and should not be used as such until really needed. People are much less likely to know a notable person's patronymic than what he/she indeed is notable for..." I think this has come up in similar move discussions before but I can't remember where.
WP:NCRUS doesn't address it either. It's something warranting a discussion so I'll post a note at
WT:WikiProject Russia and
WT:Disambiguation. —
AjaxSmack 03:22, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support per above.
bd2412T 04:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Per all the above, but there are Russophile (my read) editors who prefer the patronymic method as the more authentic Russian.
PЄTЄRS J V ►
TALK 04:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: I've heard – but I'm far from certain – that the patronymic is used only on formal occasions or when you know a person well. In other words, you don't speak of
Putin as Vladimir Vladimirovich, unless you – and those present – know him fairly well. I think this (if true) further discourages the use of patronymics in wikipedia.
HandsomeFella (
talk) 11:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Traditionally, it's the proper way to address someone that you don't know well. But in modern use, especially in English sources, it's often not used. --
Born2cycle (
talk) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Without getting into evolution and varieties of conjugation, its use is primarily in polite (formal) conversation, where using the first name only is considered intimate, while not knowing someone's patronymic is a potential source of embarrassment (so, address and refer to others by given and patronymic). At least in the not too old days. As for use of the full name including patronymic, that's mainly in deference in the third person. (Patronymics were once reserved for the nobility and higher classes.)
PЄTЄRS J V ►
TALK 05:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support: a bracketed disambiguator will be much more useful for a reader trying to find the person they are looking for in a category or other list.
PamD 07:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: although
WP:QUALIFIER is not explicit on this point, the example given there of
William Henry (actor) shows someone who could have been distinguished by his middle name as
William Albert Henry but is not: given name + surname + bracketed qualifier being preferred.
PamD 08:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support --
♫GoP♫TCN 14:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Support in general. Obvious exception is whenever someone is commonly referenced with the patronymic in reliable English sources. --
Born2cycle (
talk) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Even though I think it was me who moved some of these to a patronymic form, that was quite some years ago. The fact that the search box now offers suggestions as one types the search string in makes disambiguation by occupation more helpful to readers than disambiguation by patronymic.—
Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (
yo?); October 13, 2011; 16:18 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.