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The original Vedic conception of the cosmos was different from the later brahminic one. It was called 'Visvabrahmam' created by visvakarma, the demiurge of Brahma. It is interesting to notice that this cosmos was oragnised on the principle of 'five' or 'pancha'bootha ( Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Sky ). Accordingly the Brahma/Visvakarma originally had five faces. He had five children from whom the five groups of the artisan community took birth. There were originally five Vedas with Pranava Veda as the last one. It was suppressed by the later brahmins but retained its essence as the one-word mantra of OM.
The various aspects of mundane life also came to be ordered on this principle of five. The land of Indus where they lived itself was Panjab, 'the land of five rivers'. They followed an egalitarian administration based on the rule of five called 'panchayat', which constitutes the basic unit of civil administration even at present in India.1I panchaguna (five qualities), panchakalyani (a peculiar horse), 'Panchavadyam' (five musical instruments), 'panchakarma' (five practices of Ayurvedic medicine), 'panchgavya' (a sacred food made of the five products of cow), 'pancharatna' (five diamonds), 'panchangam' (the Five-part Indian astrological calendar), 'panchamrutam' (food made of five sweet edibles), 'panchadukham' (five sorrows), 'panjaguna' ( sight, touch, hearing, smell, and taste ) and 'panjabrahmana' ( manu, maya, twoshta, shilpi, viswajna ) were some of the five-based 'panjagotra' ( Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhuvana, Pratanasa, Suparna ) aspects of this prelapsarian reality with the 'panjavedas' ( Rig veda, Yajur veda, Sama veda, Atharva veda, Pranava veda ).
Read More Visvakarma Community, Author(s): George Varghese K. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4414253 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghu chandran ( talk • contribs) 06:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
In general Brahmins are two types. Poursheya Brahmins & Aarsheya Brahmins
1). Poursheya Brahmins are the Brahmins from the ‘PURUSHA’ and we know the lord VISWAKARMA is the purusha in Vedas (this describes the purusha suktha, that suktha describes about viswakarma only. This is well known to all scholars) Poursheya Brahmins are ‘Manu brahma, Maya brahma, Thwashta brahma, Daivagna brahma, Viswagna brahma’. from these Brahmins, viswakarma generations are started.
2). Aarsheya Brahmins are from ‘rishis’ they are their ‘saptha rishis’. ‘kausika (son of a heap), jambuka(son of a fox), gouthama (son of a cow), vyasa (son of a fisher woman), vasishta(son of a bitch), gargeya (son of donkey), suka (son of a parrot), saunaka (son of a dog), Rishyasringa (son of deer), vaalmiki (a thief and hunter), saankhya (son of a dalitha). All these are their prime rishis. But they are wearing yagnopaveetham.
http://www.ramanuja.org/purusha/sukta-4.html
in purusha sukta 12
brAhmaNo asya mukhamAseet | bAhoo rAjanya: krta: | ooru tadasya yad vaishya | padbhyAm shoodro ajAyata || 12 ||
(asya) His (mukham) mouth (Aseet) became (brAhmaNa:) the Brahmin, (bAhoo) his arms (krta:) were made (rAjanya:) Kings. (yad) what were(asya ooru) his thighs, (tad) they were made into (vaishya:) the merchants, (padbhyAm) and from his feet (shoodro) were the servants (ajAyata) born.
purusha sukta is incorporates the 5 principles of meditation (upasana), knowledge (jnana), devotion (bhakti), and rituals and duties (dharma and karma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusha_sukta#Content
The Purusha sukta gives a description of the spiritual unity of the universe. It presents the nature of Purusha or the cosmic being as both immanent in the manifested world and yet transcendent to it. From this being, the sukta holds, the original creative will (ldentified with Viswakarma, Hiranyagarbha or Prajapati) proceeds which causes the projection the universe in space and time. The Purusha sukta, in the seventh verse, hints at the organic connectedness of the various classes of in the society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiranyagarbha
'Hiraṇyagarbha Sūkta', suggesting a single creator deity(verse 8: yo deveṣv ādhi devā eka āsīt, Griffith:"He is the God of gods, and none beside him."), in the hymn identified as Prajāpati The concept golden womb is again mentioned in Viswakarma suktha Rg 10-82.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajapati
Prajapati is a Vedic deity presiding over procreation, and the protector of life. He appears as a creator deity or supreme god vishvakarman above the other Vedic deities in RV 10 and in Brahmana literature.
Kindly discuss more about this community in South India.
Also, only after starting the article there will be development in a positive direction. I am sure there will be other people who will know more about this subject and will gradually collect evidence. BalanceRestored 05:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
At least in North India, Vishwakarma and Dhimans are neither recognised as upper caste nor as part of Brahmin community. Whether one believes in Vedas is irrelevant. As such all humanity maybe derived from sapt-rishi but that was not the basis of communities in ancient India. Besides, the word Vishwa brahmin itself is an oxymoron because no community suffixes the word to itself.Although these things may be irrelevant in urban India now, use of such arguments is pure distortion of historical facts.I can give more reasons why this is so, but I believe wikipedia is not the right forum for such discussions.-guruji 122.175.172.26 ( talk) 18:00, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
The vishwakrama gotras and surnames are to be added to the main article.
Vishwabrahmins commonly have the following surnames (I know these two surnames, other editors are requested to mention all the other surnames here.)
Acharya, Advani, Sharma, Stapathi, Dixit, Thakur, Achari, Chary, Pitroda, Mistry, Moharana, Choudhry, Das, Mishra.
Vishwabrahmin Gotras
The above are the main gothras(Pancha gothras)
Sanaga brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Sanathana brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Ahabhounasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Prathnasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Suparanasa brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
santhimatha bramharshi - Tamiri —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.117.123 ( talk) 14:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
BalanceRestored 05:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
BalanceRestored, you'll need to cite reliable secondary sources to support any information you intend to add to this (or any other) article. Among the sources you have listed above, only the book Nardi would qualify as an acceptable source but it is not clear what exact statement you are claiming the book as a reference for. Also please ensure that your writing maintains a neutral point of view. Cheers. Abecedare 07:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
A valid citation.... is this good enough? Metalcraftsmen of India (Memoir - Anthropological Survey of India ; no. 44)
BalanceRestored 09:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Indiawale (
talk)
14:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC) From User Indiawale to User Abecedare
This article is well referenced pointing to almost 10 sources (see the end section and various links.) It is well balanced since it talks about others' point of view (including Vishwakarma's prosecution.) India is a caste centric society, the Gods' statue building work in ancient India's temples was done by Vishwakarmas. This can be verified to this day (please refer to the landmark six-part documentary series for PBS and the BBC by Michael Wood
http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia )
Let me know why you are claiming this article is inaccurate?
BalanceRestored 12:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
BalanceRestored 05:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
No, all the 5. It is not just goldsmiths. BalanceRestored 10:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Did you find citation for the same, there's lot more than that. If you did find the same, kindly cite BalanceRestored 05:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
"Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 18", By James Hastings, Page 599, states the following "Panchals have the Brahmanic sanskars, or sacraments, and perform their ceremonies according to the Vedic Ritual. Frequent attempts were made in the days preceding British rule to deny them the rights to these Brahmanic privileges; but when the decision of pandits, or religious advisers when referred to, was in their favor." BalanceΩrestored Talk 18:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
BalanceΩrestored Talk 18:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Per the above discussion, Viswabrahmin has been redireced to this article. The last version of that article may have material that would be useful here. Spartaz Humbug! 06:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
As asked by User:Indiawale, here are some of the issues I see with the article:
A previous version article was reasonably referenced and written, and it mey be best to revert to that version and slowly add sourced information instead of trying to clean up this mess. Abecedare ( talk) 00:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Indiawale ( talk) 04:24, 4 March 2009 (UTC) User Abecedare, following is my explanation:
Indiawale ( talk) 13:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC) Reader Abecedare, I will edit the article, add the references provided in the article and then remove the tag.
Abecedare, I live in a democratic country, everyone has equal rights. You not being reasonable and logical would qualify as disruptive too and your account would be blocked for disruptive behavior. You had marked this article as POV without giving reasons. When I challanged you and asked for reasons you requested 24 hours time and then added your claims, after the fact. This is a hightly disruptive behavior Indiawale ( talk) 05:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Indiawale, It's good that you have added a reference to the article. However citing Griffith's translation of Rigveda, the
way you did doesn't help with the referencing issues. You need to specify, which sentence(s) in the article are supported by which verse(s) of the Rigveda. See
WP:Cite#Inline_citations on how to do so, and in particular, read about the
footnote system. If you need technical help, just ask.
Abecedare (
talk)
18:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare have patience, I was not done yet!
Regarding the rig veda book I mentioned, please refer to pages 591 and 592. The 10th mandal of rig veda has two suktas 81 and 82. Each of these have 7 mantras each, making a total of 14 mantras exclusively talking about Vishwakarma. Few examples, Hymn LXXXII, Mantra 1, and I quote here, "Vishwakarma who made the light that enables the eye to see, He engendered the water and the heaven and earth floating in the water." Mantra 2, and I quote again, "Mighty in mind and power is Vishwakarma, Maker, Disposer, and most lofty Presence, the highest image or object of spiritual contemplation."
I am giving you a few examples, since I cannot possibly types pages and pages of information, so I would request that you read these and other passages directly from the book.
The above quoted passges describe the importance of Vishwakarma and how he is the builders and architect.
In addition, please get the following books from the publisher Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt Ltd: 1) Brahmavaivaryta puran, please read, Krishna Janma Khand, aadhyaya 47 2) Atharaveda, please read 19 kand, sukta 34 (10 mantras) and 35 (5 mantras) 3) Skanda Purana please read Kashi Khand, Skanda Purana please read Prabhas Khanda 4) Vayu Purana please read adhaya 22 5) Matsya Purana please read Adhaya 5 6) Yajurved, please read adhaya 17, mantra 17 to 34. A few examples of these mantras are Mantra 1: Vishwakarma, the Omnific, is represented in this hymn as the universal father anf generator, the creator of all things and Architect of the worlds. He who sat down as Hotar-priest, the Rsi, our father, offering up all things existing, He seeking through his wish a great possession, came among men on earth as archetypal. Mantra 2: What was the placve whereon he took his station? What was it that supported him? How was it? Whence Vishwakarma, seeing all, producing the earth, with mighty power disclosed the heavens. Mantra 3: He who hath eyes on all sides round about him, a mouth on all sides, arms and feet on all side. He the sole God, producing earth and heaven, weldeth them, with his arms as wing, together. Mantra 7: Let us invoke to-day, to aid our labour, the Lord of Speech, the though-swift Vishwakarma. May he hear kindly all our invocations who gives all bliss for aid, whose works are righteous. Again, I would request you to directly read this from the book. The said articles should be referred to regarding the origin of the Vishwa Brahmins and also regarding them being Shilpis, engineers, builders, artist and architects. I would also suggest that you seek advise from someone who is an expert in reading and intepreting ancient text and it's language.
And one more thing! Someone has added more information regarding the Chittor judgement! Please refer to the following books in Telgu: Title is "Chittooru Zilla Adhalath Court Theerpu" Publishers: C.V KRISHNA BOOK DEPO, p.b no 1805, 121 AMMAN KOVEL STREET, SOWKAR PET POST, CHENNAI 600079, Price 30/- The above mentioned book was translated in Tamil too and published by K.P. Subbaian, Sri Lakshmi Jewellery, Big Bazar Street, Coimbatore, TN, India
I would suggest that the POV tag be taken out of this article. Indiawale ( talk) 05:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare, don't worry, I will keep on editing this. At the same time I need you to be reasonable and logical! I can wake up a person who is sleeping but cannot wake-up someone who is pretending to be asleep! The information provided regarding emenient Vishwabrahmin personalities is well cited. Just click the hyperlinks provided and checkout the detail articles regarding these individuals (including references.)
Indiawale (
talk)
05:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I see, so now you have started using another login! As I said earlier click on the links provided, read them and then come back. Indiawale ( talk) 15:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
User Abecedare, please check examples of some of the links I provided such as ones regarding Giani Zail Singh, Dalip Singh Saund, Harbhajan Singh, Monty Panesar, Gursharan Singh, M. K. Thyagaraja Bhagavathar, Brahmanandam, Jagjit Singh, Gulzar (lyricist), Veeru Devgan, Ameet Channa, Kulvinder Ghir. Please note that these are eminient individuals and nobody is making this up! For example, Giani Zail Singh was the PRESIDENT of Indial. As the link says, he had a humble start in life and his father was a CARPENTER who was killed in an automobile accident. Carpenters are Vishwakarmas! Please explain why you are sticking to the a position that the list of Eminent Vishwabrahmin Individuals is not cited correctly? Also, Dalip Singh Saund (September 20, 1899–April 22, 1973) was a member of the United States House of Representatives. He is quite a famous person since, he was the first Asian American, Indian American and Sikh member of the United States Congress! Please check the reference section of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalip_Singh_Saund . Indiawale ( talk) 16:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Also, Lord Vishwakarma and Vishwakarma caste are directly related. GSB, Chitpavan and COBRA Brahmins don't follow Lord Vishwakarma and neither do the Namboodaripads. So your attempt to delink lord Vishwakarma from Vishwkarma caste and that too when it's well known that in India, people marry, vote in election and socially bond based on their hereditary profession/caste, is quite absurd. Indiawale ( talk) 05:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I will provide links regarding the hereditary caste system in India and also that certain dieties are followed by certain castes. It's surprising that someone with an Indian sounding name and discussing India issues would pretend to be ignorant of the caste system. Indiawale ( talk) 15:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
User Nvineeth, Wiki has page on the caste system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system There are more than 50+ references. Do you want me to retype these references here? Example of some of the references are: "Early Evidence for Caste in South India," p. 467-492 in Dimensions of Social Life: Essays in honor of David G. Mandelbaum, Edited by Paul Hockings and Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, New York, Amsterdam, 1987.
Also regarding Vishwakarma being the deity of the engineers, artists and craftsmen caste, a few days back, I had provided the following information and more on this page. To this day in India, September 17th (the Birthday of Lord Vishwakarma) is celeberated by industrial houses, artists and craftsman. The festival is observed on the Kanya Sankranti Day (September) which follows the Ganesh Puja. Following is a link from the higly esteemed national level Indian newspaper, The Telegraph, regarding this holiday ( http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080917/jsp/calcutta/story_9844650.jsp). Please refer to the annual calendar published by the Government of India - Ministry of Personnel, that lists September 17 as Vishwakarma Jayanti. Following are more links regarding the engineering caste celeberating this festival:
Indiawale ( talk) 15:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare, based on discussion on the List of Hindu scriptures article, can I assume that the Absence of Concensus is also not a valid reason to mark articles as POV? Please confirm this?
Indiawale (
talk)
16:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The term Viswakarma might have been assumed it present form from the term like Karmakara and their vedic social groups like Viss. In vedic period these karmakaras were respected people among the general public.Rg 1V.35-5,6; IV.32-1.Atharva veda [paippalada vyakyanam] says’’ye takshano rathakara karmarayo maneeshina……..111.56[ref shudras in ancient India by R.S sharma] .A mere recitation form the vasthu shatra will not make anyone the Stapathi. Instead he should be well versed with the craft of installation also.In this reason Stapathies were emerged from Takshaka Karmakara communities. Vasthuvidyam says ‘’Viswakarmakacharyo gurutvat viswakarmanam sthapathih sthapanam kurvan iti silpir vidhiyate’The famous Brahadisvara temple of Raja Raja Chola I (tenth century) has the name of the architect proudly engraved on it by the master craftsman himself as ‘Kunjaramallan Raja Raja Perunthachan. the Chebrolu inscription of 1118, the Nadindla inscription of 1141 and the Tellapur inscription dated 1417, all state that the smiths and sculptors belong to the Vishwakarma kula., another inscriptional record (dated 1177) from Macherla in Palnad taluq, Guntur district of Andhra Pradesh links the Vishwakarma to Brahma the divine creator.35 The record refers to the smiths as ‘Vishwakarma Kulaja’ [ref VISHWAKARMA CRAFTSMEN IN EARLY MEDIEVAL PENINSULAR INDIA by VIJAYA RAMASWAMY] More over there are verses like’’Viswakarmasutha pruthae pancha srushti pravarthika, kruthethu manasa srushti thriyanam drushtisadakam’’ in Moola skanda puranam Nagara khandam 5.
The non-notable names and those which do not have wikipedia articles are required to be cleaned up in this article -- Sureshmaran ( talk) 06:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
There are some interesting points in this article http://www.ignca.nic.in/ps_01011.htm it will be great if someone adds them to the main article. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 10:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Someone feels the need to obscure the fact that the Vshwakarmas of Kerala fall way down the caste hierarchy and were generally considered as lower castes by the other prominent caste groups namely the Nairs and the Ezhavas who are themselves very low in the caste order.This fact need not be hidden anyway, however embarrassing it maybe or however highly, might we consider our antecedents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mksuraj ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Looking at a few resources, some places are indicating that Vishwakarma and Kammalar are two names for the same group of five craftsman communities. Are these terms synonymous, and the articles need to be merged? If not, what is the distinction? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 15:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Can someone please explain how Sinai Dhume, Anant Ramkrishna (1986). The cultural history of Goa from 10000 B.C.-1352 A.D. Ramesh Anant S. Dhume, 1986. p. 37. meets our reliable sources policy. Who is/was the author? Who is/was the publisher? What other works have both author & publisher produced? Why does it have the appearance of being self-published? Is it a peer-reviewed book? Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 04:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I have just restored an earlier, not very good version of the article. The subsequent contributor initiated a discussion on my talk page here but has now withdrawn from the conversation. In any event, that was not the appropriate place to resolve the problem, which is basically one of defining exactly what this group may be.
I do not deny that they exist but we already have numerous articles - eg: Panchal and Sunar - and there appears to be a massive overlap/duplication going on. It needs to be sorted out before people waste even more time. - Sitush ( talk) 10:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Vishwakarma is Ariya Shilpy ( Deva Shilpy ) but "Maya" who is son of vishwakarma is Asura Shilpy so there is Ariya Dravida mixing and some fake story created after ariya migration to south india.
There was one more veda called "Pranava Veda" i think "Vyasa" destroyed it and then classified the Vedas into four parts
1, Rigveda 2, Yajurveda 3, Samaveda 4, Atharvaveda
5, Pranava Veda
Vishwakarma Caste following this 5 vedas till now, What is the real story behind this 5th veda?
Read this article in discover magazine about south Asian ancestry and vishwakarma brahmin ( Tamil vishwakarma ) who was the part of "Maya". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.114.176 ( talk) 20:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Your statement made above regarding Sanskrit language is not valid. Sanskrit(cassical) was never a spoken language.Prakrit was spoken language.No communities in Indian ever spoke Sanskrit.They always spoke Prakrit. Nijgoykar ( talk) 03:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Orthodox Vishwakarmans follow a strict vegetarian diet. The following edit [3] was reverted. I have added further references.
I have added further reference to Vegetarianism. If more references are required please do let me know. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 04:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
On what basis is this [10] revert done. The reason cited is "Sri Aurobindo Kapāli Sāstry Institute of Vedic Culture"'s source being unreliable. Kindly explain why is this source unreliable.
This source was used to show the relation between Yajur Veda TS (4.3.3) and Vishwakarma Gotra rishis. The source cited the following "TS (4.3.2) mentions the five ŗşhīs namely Vasişhţha, Bharadvāja, Vishvāmitra, Jamadagni and Vishvakarma; RV (10.137) mentions seven ŗşhīs: Bharadvāja, Kashyapa, Gotama, Atri, Vishvāmitra and Vasişhţha. During Sandhya worship, one repeats the names of seven ŗşhīs. The list varies from gotra to gotra. One version is: Atri, Bhŗgu, Kutsa, Vasişhţha, Gotama, Kashyapa, Angirasa. (4.3.3) mentions five ŗşhīs Sanaga, Sanātana, Ahabūna, Pratna, Suparņa. The Vishvakarma Brāhmins who build temples and sculpt the forms of deities trace their lineage to these five ŗşhīs." further excerpts from the same book [11] Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 10:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Anyone read "Sankara Vijaya" to explain the truth,
Adi Sankaracharya was the son of a Vishwakarma (Twashtha). In Sri Sankara Vijaya there is a sloka "Acharyo sankarao nama, Twostha putra nisamshaya, Viprakula gurordweeksha, Vishwakarman thu Brahmana." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.200.223.228 ( talk) 10:00, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
As for querying reliability, well, it is an old source. Furthermore, when I last looked at it, the journal does not seem often to be cited by academics, I could find out little about the Society that publishes it, and - as I said above - their publications have been used in the past to support some very odd statements that contradicted mainstream thought. Who was the author of the article? That is, what sort of credentials did/do they have? - Sitush ( talk) 08:05, 5 October 2012 (UTC) (forgot to sign)
Sub Caste - Sculptor, Black Smith, Brass Smith, Carpenter, Gold Smith & Priests.
Not for the first time, someone has cited the Andhra Historical Research Society. As on past occasions, the citation appears likely to be a snippet view of the source from GBooks. We really need more than this and, please, if you have access to more then I would appreciate seeing, say, a copy of the relevant page and the ones immediately before and after it. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 21:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
What is this caste name ? commonly using Vishwakarma but Vishwakarma is god, so people using Vishwakarma Caste as common and some Vishwakarma caste people are following through traditional path they are known as Vishwabrahmana but the original name of this caste is Brahmin
According to vedas there is 4 castes ( varnas ) only, 1 Brahmana, 2 Kshatriya, 3 Vaisya, 4 Shudra., so why Vishwakarma caste is brahmana ?
so orginal caste name is Brahmin according to vedas other castes are not brahmin cause there is no evidence like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghu chandran ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Please refer to the link below:- http://viswakarmasuvarnakar.jimdo.com/chittoor-zilla-adalat-theerpu/ if you guys cant trust the content from this 3rd party website you can get data from those cases fought in the court from the court database. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 13:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
This book has several interesting pages about this caste's efforts to assume Brahmin customs and adapt their social identity. This could be a useful source of citations: http://books.google.com/books?id=sBgLb8XIGR8C&pg=PA128&dq=vishwakarma+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g4e_UZfqHtC40gGVloH4Cw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vishwakarma%20caste&f=false
I'm also wondering if Vishwakarma might be a more common term for this caste, and whether the current choice of title is POV. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 22:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Zack Ajmal are you holding the scale upright or reversed? The oldest human gene turned out to be from TamilNadu and Kerala? "In neighboring Tamil Nadu, geneticists testing DNA of local peoples, genes have been found from 50-60,000 years ago."
http://www.drsheedy.com/early-humans/up-to-12-000-years-ago.php ?? So now you decide?? Would Vedas which is told to be naturally occurring and was narrated by Purusha's face Sadyojataya, Vamadevaya, Aghoraya, Tatpurushaya and Esanaya who's children are Manu, Maya, Tvastar, Shilpi and Visvajna also known as Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhudana, Pratnasa and Supernasa who are the gotra Rishi's of all the Vishwakarmas would it go from Old to NEW or from New to OLD? Also Genetic Puzzle Solvers are you SEENING BLOOD IS RED and common among all? Another fact... how did you arrive at who's in a Brahmin among all? Without the availability of that Zack Ajmal how did you arrive at such a conclusion? Also beyond India there are no traces of Vedic practice among the Europeans? I never got any answer for this question so far from anyone? Also Krishna Yajur Veda followers (predominantly south indians) are older to Shukla Yajur Veda (predominantly north indians). Zack Ajmal this is the most under researched report ever seen This is an under researched report. There are so many determinable parameters missing in your report. The No.1 characteristics of a Brahmin is they will not speak or think ill about others. In the end one is naturally bound to save oneself. How does the DNA report of your distinguish these characteristics i.e. "they will not speak or think ill about others"?
Ganesh J. Acharya (
talk)
08:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
First off, editors haven't provided any authoritative references for "the V. caste built all/most/many of the temples in India". So we can't take that as a given if folks don't provide sourcing. Further, even if we proceed assuming they built a large number of quality temples, that doesn't necessarily support any claim that they are Brahmins, or descended from gods, or in some unbroken lineage since the time of the Vedas. While we can certainly record the community's impression of itself, with proper academic sourcing, we can't go around quoting Vedas as though it explains history unbroken for thousands of years following. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to Vishwakarma (caste). Now, I'm going to request that you all be more careful about this kind of thing in the future. While an article had begun to develop at Vishwabrahmin in parallel, the main article on this topic had long been at Vishwakarma (caste). For reasons unknown to me, about a month ago, the Vishwakarma (caste) article (with its longer history) was changed to a redirect to the Vishwabrahmin, which was then expanded in the following weeks. And then, just a few hours ago, someone effectively performed a cut-and-paste move back to Vishwakarma (caste). This, of course, is not how moves and merges are supposed to take place, and fixing this problem is annoying, problematic, and confusing. What I did was keep the history of Vishwabrahmin from before about May 30 (only 46 revisions) at that article's history. A redirect is now in place to the current article, which contains all 2200+ revisions from Vishwakarma (caste) from before that date, the 119 revisions from Vishwabrahmin after that date, and, due to technical limitations, the roughly 8 revisions from Vishwakarma (caste) after that date. Yeah, annoying. Moral of the story: please don't do cut-and-paste moves. -- tariqabjotu 14:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Vishwabrahmin →
Viswakarma (caste) – For a while we had parallel articles developing, but eventually an editor blanked
Vishwakarma (caste) and
Viswakarma and redirected them to this title. However, with even some basic GoogleBooks look searching the various terms (and with "caste" to be sure I was getting the group and not the god) it really seems that Viswakarma is the popular spelling for this group. I'm also concerned that the title "Viswabrahmin" might be close to POV as a promotional name for the caste, given that apparently a lot of other castes don't agree with their usage of the term "brahmin". I suggest that the past Talk page of
Vishwakarma (caste) be merged into this one since it has a lot of good/detailed past discussion, and then this whole lot be moved over to
Viswakarma
Viswakarma (caste) as the most common term per
WP:COMMONNAME.
MatthewVanitas (
talk)
01:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I have created the original page Vishwakarma (caste) again and have redirected Vishwabrahmin to this article since everyone has voted in favor of the same. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 05:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
An user has replaced text from deity article with text about caste [24], which can be incorporated here. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
References to older Discussions at this article were originally discussed here Talk:Vishwakarma_(caste)/Archive_1. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 08:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
These sections seem to copied from some wiki page with [1] references and [citation needed] tags. Can someone fix it. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
This page has been bounced around several different titles in the past few years, and due to some sloppy moves (and apparently totally undiscussed ones) there's been some sloppiness with page histories, such as that there's not a clear continuous thread of evolution of the title. The article has also been pretty abjectly horrible through much of its history, and is currently getting a lot of IP attention to the point that I'm wondering if this is yet another Orkut "hey guys come save our caste from defamation on Wikipedia!!!" campaign.
In whatever case, we need to move this current version to a decent title, then go through it with a fine-tooth comb to get rid of the junk. Also my initial pokings are leading me to wonder if this whole caste isn't just a fancy name for Panchal, and maybe a lot of this can be more properly grouped under a different title. I went in today and cut out more ridiculous phrasing like "many beautiful temples are due to this blessed caste", but this one is going to be a handful, and if IPs keep tampering this may need page protection as well.
Anyone have suggestions on how to get an admin to help us do some History merges and also merges of alternate Talk pages so we can try and get all the history and all the discussion into one unified body? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 00:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Vishwabrahmin monthly google search count is 3600 Vishwakarma monthly google search count is only 1600 check via google keyword tool https://adwords.google.com/o/KeywordTool
so change the title to Vishwabrahmin ( Vishwakarma Caste ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.14.227.105 ( talk) 16:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
106.79 raises an interesting point which used to be covered in the article but disappeared over the many convoluted drafts. There's been some political complications with (if I recall right) some in the community claiming Brahmin status and others wanting OBC in order to get better opportunities for their disadvantaged members. If I recall right, there are similar cases of self-identified "Rajput" groups who find themselves caught between claiming Rajput status, but also wanting to make use of caste reservations to secure college spots, etc. It really is fascinating politics, and by just hand-waving "they're Brahmins" we're really being unfair to the reader and even the community by endorsing a santised/POV version of history rather than exploring the complications. Thanks for bringing that up 106.79! MatthewVanitas ( talk) 19:45, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
ADI Shankara is a Visvakarma and the same is quoted in Shankara Vijaya. The reference was brought out by the research organization Andhra Historical Research Society in this Journal commonly abbreviated as J.A.H.R.S. Respectable Organizations like Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) do importantly refer to findings from "Andhra Historical Research Society" [25], [26], [27], [28], [29].
As an interesting parallel, if you note Talk:Rumi, there's ongoing feuding as to his nationality, and the pro-Turk side always loves to bring up some line where he says "I am a Turk". But then other folks point out that the actual context of the poem is that he's saying "Human beings are all the same thing", in the sense that being a Turk or an Inuit are fundamentally equivalent. In any case, I am skeptical if the argument for his being a a Viswakarma is a song he did. And the claim that "only Viswakarmas could be jatgurus" only undermines the argument, as it gives more reason that he could've simply been claiming that caste for political reasons to justify his role. Fundamentally, I'm just not sure that mentioning him really adds to our understanding of the caste. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 16:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
User:MatthewVanitas has questioned "why bother mentioning the YV passage in the main body?". The reason is, the source specifically quotes, "The Vishvakarma Brāhmins who build temples and sculpt the forms of deities trace their lineage to these five ŗşhīs "Sanaga, Sanātana, Ahabūna, Pratna, Suparņa" are mentioned in Yajur Veda TS (4.3.3). Should readers not know where are the five ŗşhīs mentioned in Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita? Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 17:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
In fact MatthewVanitas Original brahmins mutilated the Brahma,and expelled him from the pantheon,and now worshiping other gods. Viswakarmas still follows the duty of brahma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.14.111 ( talk) 18:45, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
User:Redtigerxyz 1. Why did you introduce the word "namesake" [32] and 2. Why did you remove parts of the original epigraphic writings that stated Lord Visvakarma ancestor to the Visvakarma Caste is Lord Vishvakarma who is son of Brahma, father-in-law of Sun. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vishwakarma_%28caste%29&diff=563245585&oldid=563198362 stating WP:UNDUE. Are you not aware that there are multiple (around 10-12, updated by a very reliable source) different Visvakarmas in Vedic History? The source "Andhra Historical Research Society" that quoted epigraphic writing has specifically clarified [33] parts of the epigraphic contents as "The record says that Visvakarama, son of Brahma was the proginator of the achitects and father- in-law of the sun Visvakarama is stated to have converted the rays of the sun, his son-in-law into devine weapons e.g. discus of Vishnu." [34]. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 02:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I am proposing this article for deletion. This article has never given any proper and thorough information on the Vishwakarma caste. From the time the article was created (2 July 2007) till now, no effort has been made to improve and clean up the article to make it more understandable for people who don't belong to the Vishwakarma caste. It does not look like anyone is going to improve it either in the near future, so hence my action. 59.92.143.66 ( talk) 06:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
create Shilpy and Vishwajnya page ( Vishwakarma's 4th and 5th sons ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.196.113.6 ( talk) 10:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
I do not know what are the intention of many writers who have written about this community. This community has not just been traditionally into just some small crafts and artistic work, but have been Architects and Engineers to many massive accomplishments. So, certain malice intent is very clear with certain sources, or these sources have horribly flawed research practices. Request editors to check sources very carefully from this angle or it is not the community that will be effected in any way, it is the intent of the writers getting exposed in front of the world. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 08:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
The article is missing a critical information about Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhuvana, Pratnasa and Supernasa that is the 5 rishis in Krishna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 4.3.3. Also there are persistent narrations found w.r.t The five faces of Visvakarma — Sadajata, Vamadeva, Aghora, Tatpurusa, Isana — gave rise to the Panchabiahmans i.e. Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhudana, Pratnasa and Supernasa Rishis "The makers of the world: caste, craft, and mind of South Indian artisans Author Jan Brouwer". The book Visvakarma and his descendants by Alfred Edwards Roberts also mentions "His five faces were differently named as Sadyojataya, Vamadevaya, Aghoraya, Tatpurushaya and Esanaya and from each of these he begot a son from Sadayojata Manu; from Vamadevaya Maya; from Aghoraya Twashtar; from Tatpurushaya Shilpi and from Esanaya Visvajna; known also as Sanaga, Sanatana, Pratnasa, Abhuwansa, and Supernasa Rishis respectively;" Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 03:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
it is good to mention it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 05:18, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
User:Sitush This article does not consider views and opinions from any of books written by the 18 crore Vishwakarma members and is purely relying on Non-Vishwakarma members? All the sources chosen are either from Christians writers or from Non-Vishwakarmas members? This is like editing articles on Christianity but choosing the views and opinions of Muslims and Non-Christian writers? Hopelessly written according to me. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 06:16, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
“who were the original Brahmins?”
The case was between Viswa Brahmins [also known as Poursheya Brahmins] and Arsheya Brahmins. The court is reported to have delivered3 judgement [case no 205, Chitoor District Court, 15/12/1818] in favour of Viswa Brahmins based on the Gotras of the Brahmins.
In general Brahmins are two types. Poursheya Brahmins & Aarsheya Brahmins
1). Poursheya Brahmins are the Brahmins from the ‘PURUSHA’ and we know the lord VISWAKARMA is the purusha in Vedas (this describes the purusha suktha, that suktha describes about viswakarma only. This is well known to all scholars) Poursheya Brahmins are ‘Manu brahma, Maya brahma, Thwashta brahma, Daivagna brahma, Viswagna brahma’. from these Brahmins, viswakarma generations are started.
2). Aarsheya Brahmins are from ‘rishis’ they are their ‘saptha rishis’. ‘kausika (son of a heap), jambuka(son of a fox), gouthama (son of a cow), vyasa (son of a fisher woman), vasishta(son of a bitch), gargeya (son of donkey), suka (son of a parrot), saunaka (son of a dog), Rishyasringa (son of deer), vaalmiki (a thief and hunter), saankhya (son of a dalitha). All these are their prime rishis. But they are wearing yagnopaveetham.
Add above maintained details — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.66.185.72 ( talk) 16:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Sitush in my opinion you don't need to consider the content to draw to conclusion but while explaining about the position in the society you could add up this judgement mean why other communities are silent on vishwakarmas claim and how vishwakarma community proved over of its claim, hope it will give more information about the community too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 05:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Vishwabrahmin Gotras
The above are the main gothras(Pancha gothras)
Please find works and details about upa gothras, their names added below
Sanaga brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Sanathana brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Ahabhounasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Prathnasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Suparanasa brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Vishwakarma caste is group of artists / technician / artisans in the vedic time divided by the number five,
they had knowledge about five elements - ion , wood , brass , stone , gold — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.196.113.7 ( talk) 17:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Sitush asked me to step in here so that's what I'm doing. Ganesh, if you don't like that, that's perfectly fine and you can ignore this and go for some other, more formal, sort of dispute resolution. I do hope, however, that we can figure things out at a lower key here since you both are excellent editors. My reading of the situation is as follows. Broadly speaking, Ganesh feels that the description of the Vishwakarma caste in our article does not match what he knows about the caste (as a member and from various religious texts). More specifically, there is a claim, sourced to various religious texts, that people of this caste are Brahmins and that the article should state that. Sitush, and earlier MatthewVanitas, on the other hand, relying mainly on secondary sources state that the Brahmin identification is claimed by the caste itself but is not necessarily the reality and that the article should therefore use the adjective claimed along with the Brahmin identification. Is that a reasonable summary? -- regentspark ( comment) 20:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Let's see what Ganesh comes up with Sitush. I'm asking for something to be proposed here on the talk page, not something that will be directly incorporated in the text. Once he's proposed a couple of sentences, we can examine the sources and figure things out. -- regentspark ( comment) 14:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Ganesh, that doesn't qualify as a specific proposal. You need to do the following. Identify one or two sentences in the article as it is now written. Present an alternative text that you believe should replace those sentences. Present sources that back up that text (no editorial comments are necessary along with the sources, they should speak for themselves). Then we'll have something we can evaluate. Right now, all I'm seeing is a bunch of loosy goosy philosophical statements that are not actionable. -- regentspark ( comment) 18:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
http://www.jangidbrahminsamaj.com/vansh/index.htm link may help out in sorting out the ambiguity about the community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 05:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Vishwakarma/Vishwabrahmin/Asari/Achary and etc., are quite synonymous. Hence this article may be merged to the given article. Balablitz ( talk) 23:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Better to mention different surnames of the community and merging all of them in one single article like archarya/sharma/panchal..etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 11:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
The synonymity is found in external links/sources of previous topics/issues discussed in this talk page. A example is, these Chari (caste) were off-shoot of Vishwakarma Manu Maya, came to goa just before the portuguese set hold in Goa and helped them in construction and finally settled there. Even the Goa government seems to consider chari on par with Viswakarma. It is better to pool all the sub-castes/divisions under one article. -- Balablitz ( talk) 18:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Please go through the page 567 in "Vishwakarma craftsmen in early medieval peninsular india by Vijaya Ramaswamy" book in support of this merge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.41 ( talk) 07:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Hope you will do the same with page Acharya too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.4.125.25 ( talk) 10:23, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I suspect certain users here are participating in wikipedia in such a way that Communities in India would start quarreling against each other. User:Sitush and a huge bunch of other editors are persistently referring to sources those that are presenting a biased opinion from misguided writers... and they want only misguided writers opinions? Why? Also the dating of Eastern articles through out wikipedia is being reduced from the actual. I think wikipedia project should stop if it is here to present only hidden agendas. Please check the comments on this page. Please check what User:Sitush cited on Adi Shankara's Talk page. I think wikipedia is moving ahead in a very unhealthy manner. I request moderators to intervene. I am not a regular editor even though I have been participating for couple of years now. Even though I have been providing sources after sources editors like User:Sitush are reverting the same. All Indians should fight and die reading these opinions is that what you all want? And then meatpuppets/ Sock puppets come and support the same. All this is well planned... I do not know if A-Z all the editors around are here for the same what User:Sitush and group is upto. Request Moderator intervention. Why are datings of Indian articles being made one sided? Why are sources only following what the people in the west want to follow about history in the east? Why are other opinions removed persistently? Aryan Dravidian theory.... this nonsense was brought in and injected into the Indian communities and they are being brain washed... DO you know how many deaths have happen so far... Indians do not have mentality of getting into the quarrels of people in the west... Should people start identifying past quarrels of communities all through out the world and start highlighting those and act as though we are helping communities settled down with each other? This is what British did in India. NO .... we are here to want peace among-st all.. We are not like you... We cannot think the way crooked you are thinking... Don't disturb people here.... and be in peace.
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Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 04:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Cyphoidbomb To push the complaint at WP:ANI would be isolating these provoking intentions from the readers who should be reading the biased article and have been creating biased outlook. Let readers know what is going on in here. Why isolate this incident? Also how do I know how big is this lobby? Is the incident going to be treated in an unbiased manner? What if all the members of this lobby start posting at WP:ANI and create a fabricated opinion? Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 09:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
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The page smacks of conspiciousness of brahmin caste being high and any other caste being low.
Firstly, the caste system was made by learned man who kept on changing the original knowledge of caste to his benefits and whims and fancies. However, if Vishwakarma existed in vedas and puranas and the point is not disputed that vishwakarma is in-law of surya deva (the sun god) then any descendentants of vishwakarma are pre-vedic. The brahmin gothras are only based on rishis who got veda from gods, so definetely vishwakarma don't need brahmin for their survival. This is not a question of superiority in caste system. The vishwakarma only take pride in being helpful to the mankind in five ways of working which keeps the day-to-day life going for every human being in this world. God bestowed everything in this world for living being to live a meaningful life but in no purana or veda or any other texts it is clearly told that brahmana caste is superior and others are inferior. God don't need any offerings. It is only the shlokas created by conspiracy by learned scholars at later days in sanskrit that try to give importance to brahmana caste. There is no superior human being than being good and useful to others and god don't need bridges between god and living beings. Be happy to be given respect by ignorant people. If Pranava Veda says anyone can pray god and hear and learn veda and natya shastra then there is not divide in the society but only divided by learned scholars who hid this veda from getting known to comman man.
Finally, the time has come for us to know that the religion, caste and community has no meaning unless it is beneficial to common man irrespective of religion, race, caste, color, or even animals need to be shown respect as a living being in god's creation. We don't need huge purana, veda or any spiritual texts to know this truth. Internet is more than enough to change this world order....Thanks who ever contributed for this technology evolution which disseminates evety bit of information and separates thrash and theories from belief systesm that are practical applicability of better living. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.235.236 ( talk • contribs) 08:59, 6 February 2014
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Can I delete this section? Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 07:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Please provide link's to karmakar,lohar, and Rathakara.
I request editor to read the complete book and populate appropriate content and not irrelevant content.
In the reference provided it is clearly mentioned more than once about the position as some what "The status or position of the Kammala(vishwakarama) is mixed/confused and varied periodically from Higher than Brahmin to lower shudra periodically."
links that may help to update position:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathakara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmakar
only godly origin(south Indian side) is populate how about human origin followed in north, east,west side of India please do update in this regard also.
links that may help update origin:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathakara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmakar
Is it relevant?how? anyway The respective author(reference provided) in successive pages clear tells that he dont have answer/proof regarding this theory so...... e.g:- sanskrition products like madwa, smarta,vaishnavas and lingayats had madwaacharya,shankaracharya, ramanuacharya and Basavanna to convert but no such single entity for this community and that too all over the country is found and also period they had under gone sanskrition??
some racist contents removed from 'Position in society' The Modern Anthropology of India: Ethnography, Themes and Theory quoted contents from M N srivasan's book, it is not reliable source and that book doesn't have academical credential. Gopalan Acharya ( talk) 20:59, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
My dear editor kindly let me know where in the book it is mentioned as "This claim to Brahmin status is not generally accepted outside the community, despite their assumption of some high-caste traits, such as wearing the sacred thread, and the Brahminisation of their rituals" and "Their position as a left-hand caste has not aided their ambition" also I really dont know why Lingayat are being coated here who are unknow in Rajathan or north states.Please do let me know do you have any hidden agenda?
however, In my understanding according to the book M.N.srinivas provides reason why vishwakarma call themself vishwakarma Brahmins and reason is left hand caste and hence brahminical life style, however i have added exact sentences for book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.36.209 ( talk) 17:16, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
If so can you please do let me know page number and stance in the book exactly. I never told it *is* not a reliable source but of understanding skill of the editor ho misunderstanding the content.According to the book M.N.srinivas provides reason why vishwakarma call themself vishwakarma Brahmins and reason is simply left hand caste and hence brahminical life style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.134.183 ( talk) 02:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
when and where did I told vishwakarmas belong to brahmin caste? why are you try to run away from the actual topic please don't do that. My point is vishwakarmas belong to left-hand caste and all left-hand caste like Devanga, Daivgnas use Brahmin word along with there caste name in order to provide message to society that they belong to left-hand caste and follow brahminical life style.
Regarding page 128 My dear liar editor where it is mentioned as "This claim to Brahmin status is not generally accepted outside the community, despite their assumption of some high-caste traits, such as wearing the sacred thread, and the Brahminisation of their rituals" and "Their position as a left-hand caste has not aided their ambition"
I am unable to find even words like ambition, accepted...etc please let me know in which paragraph it is present in page 128. please don't run away from the actual topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.203.159.68 ( talk) 17:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
since liar editor is silent and have no courtesy to put back correct information I am putting back the right information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.202.92.191 ( talk) 10:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Derrett, John Duncan Martin. Essays in Classical and Modern Hindu Law: Dharmaśāstra and related ideas. pp. 45, 46. Please updated as per this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.4.125.25 ( talk) 10:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Violation of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view(WP:NPOV)so modified. By the By is above is valid?
@ ( User :Sitush) Words "This claim to Brahmin status is not generally accepted outside the community" i can not see this type of content in that book, first of MN sreenivasan's sanskritization research was in karnataka vishwakarma people, not about all indian vishwakarma community.
Vishwakarma brahmin is different from 'poojari brahimin' ( purohit brahmins )but somewhere in india ( karnataka ) a few viswakarma caste members may trying to become purohit brahmin that may the research topic of M N Sreenivas sanskritization., this has no any relation with all indian vishwakarma community.
Vishwakarma caste members are refer as purusheya brahmin ( born with designing skill ) not purohit ( poojari ) brahmin., these two type of brahmins are exist in Hinduism both are using same surnames, this is the major misunderstanding in many historians like MGS , vijay ramaswamy and M N Sreenivas etc.. they thought its sanskritization of vishwakarma caste. read page number 559 Gopalan Acharya ( talk) 20:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
while division the society in four cast as manu smriti as Brahmin (who is master of knowledge), Kshatriya (master of power), Vaishya (master of business) & shudra (master of services), there all professionals of society divided in this four type categories. where not only Pandit is brahman due to his devotional knowledge but vishwakarman is also is brahman due to his scientific and artistic knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:C18C:7AE5:B128:A481:45EA:FA31 ( talk) 15:31, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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The original Vedic conception of the cosmos was different from the later brahminic one. It was called 'Visvabrahmam' created by visvakarma, the demiurge of Brahma. It is interesting to notice that this cosmos was oragnised on the principle of 'five' or 'pancha'bootha ( Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Sky ). Accordingly the Brahma/Visvakarma originally had five faces. He had five children from whom the five groups of the artisan community took birth. There were originally five Vedas with Pranava Veda as the last one. It was suppressed by the later brahmins but retained its essence as the one-word mantra of OM.
The various aspects of mundane life also came to be ordered on this principle of five. The land of Indus where they lived itself was Panjab, 'the land of five rivers'. They followed an egalitarian administration based on the rule of five called 'panchayat', which constitutes the basic unit of civil administration even at present in India.1I panchaguna (five qualities), panchakalyani (a peculiar horse), 'Panchavadyam' (five musical instruments), 'panchakarma' (five practices of Ayurvedic medicine), 'panchgavya' (a sacred food made of the five products of cow), 'pancharatna' (five diamonds), 'panchangam' (the Five-part Indian astrological calendar), 'panchamrutam' (food made of five sweet edibles), 'panchadukham' (five sorrows), 'panjaguna' ( sight, touch, hearing, smell, and taste ) and 'panjabrahmana' ( manu, maya, twoshta, shilpi, viswajna ) were some of the five-based 'panjagotra' ( Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhuvana, Pratanasa, Suparna ) aspects of this prelapsarian reality with the 'panjavedas' ( Rig veda, Yajur veda, Sama veda, Atharva veda, Pranava veda ).
Read More Visvakarma Community, Author(s): George Varghese K. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4414253 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghu chandran ( talk • contribs) 06:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
In general Brahmins are two types. Poursheya Brahmins & Aarsheya Brahmins
1). Poursheya Brahmins are the Brahmins from the ‘PURUSHA’ and we know the lord VISWAKARMA is the purusha in Vedas (this describes the purusha suktha, that suktha describes about viswakarma only. This is well known to all scholars) Poursheya Brahmins are ‘Manu brahma, Maya brahma, Thwashta brahma, Daivagna brahma, Viswagna brahma’. from these Brahmins, viswakarma generations are started.
2). Aarsheya Brahmins are from ‘rishis’ they are their ‘saptha rishis’. ‘kausika (son of a heap), jambuka(son of a fox), gouthama (son of a cow), vyasa (son of a fisher woman), vasishta(son of a bitch), gargeya (son of donkey), suka (son of a parrot), saunaka (son of a dog), Rishyasringa (son of deer), vaalmiki (a thief and hunter), saankhya (son of a dalitha). All these are their prime rishis. But they are wearing yagnopaveetham.
http://www.ramanuja.org/purusha/sukta-4.html
in purusha sukta 12
brAhmaNo asya mukhamAseet | bAhoo rAjanya: krta: | ooru tadasya yad vaishya | padbhyAm shoodro ajAyata || 12 ||
(asya) His (mukham) mouth (Aseet) became (brAhmaNa:) the Brahmin, (bAhoo) his arms (krta:) were made (rAjanya:) Kings. (yad) what were(asya ooru) his thighs, (tad) they were made into (vaishya:) the merchants, (padbhyAm) and from his feet (shoodro) were the servants (ajAyata) born.
purusha sukta is incorporates the 5 principles of meditation (upasana), knowledge (jnana), devotion (bhakti), and rituals and duties (dharma and karma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusha_sukta#Content
The Purusha sukta gives a description of the spiritual unity of the universe. It presents the nature of Purusha or the cosmic being as both immanent in the manifested world and yet transcendent to it. From this being, the sukta holds, the original creative will (ldentified with Viswakarma, Hiranyagarbha or Prajapati) proceeds which causes the projection the universe in space and time. The Purusha sukta, in the seventh verse, hints at the organic connectedness of the various classes of in the society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiranyagarbha
'Hiraṇyagarbha Sūkta', suggesting a single creator deity(verse 8: yo deveṣv ādhi devā eka āsīt, Griffith:"He is the God of gods, and none beside him."), in the hymn identified as Prajāpati The concept golden womb is again mentioned in Viswakarma suktha Rg 10-82.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajapati
Prajapati is a Vedic deity presiding over procreation, and the protector of life. He appears as a creator deity or supreme god vishvakarman above the other Vedic deities in RV 10 and in Brahmana literature.
Kindly discuss more about this community in South India.
Also, only after starting the article there will be development in a positive direction. I am sure there will be other people who will know more about this subject and will gradually collect evidence. BalanceRestored 05:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
At least in North India, Vishwakarma and Dhimans are neither recognised as upper caste nor as part of Brahmin community. Whether one believes in Vedas is irrelevant. As such all humanity maybe derived from sapt-rishi but that was not the basis of communities in ancient India. Besides, the word Vishwa brahmin itself is an oxymoron because no community suffixes the word to itself.Although these things may be irrelevant in urban India now, use of such arguments is pure distortion of historical facts.I can give more reasons why this is so, but I believe wikipedia is not the right forum for such discussions.-guruji 122.175.172.26 ( talk) 18:00, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
The vishwakrama gotras and surnames are to be added to the main article.
Vishwabrahmins commonly have the following surnames (I know these two surnames, other editors are requested to mention all the other surnames here.)
Acharya, Advani, Sharma, Stapathi, Dixit, Thakur, Achari, Chary, Pitroda, Mistry, Moharana, Choudhry, Das, Mishra.
Vishwabrahmin Gotras
The above are the main gothras(Pancha gothras)
Sanaga brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Sanathana brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Ahabhounasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Prathnasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Suparanasa brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
santhimatha bramharshi - Tamiri —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.117.123 ( talk) 14:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
BalanceRestored 05:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
BalanceRestored, you'll need to cite reliable secondary sources to support any information you intend to add to this (or any other) article. Among the sources you have listed above, only the book Nardi would qualify as an acceptable source but it is not clear what exact statement you are claiming the book as a reference for. Also please ensure that your writing maintains a neutral point of view. Cheers. Abecedare 07:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
A valid citation.... is this good enough? Metalcraftsmen of India (Memoir - Anthropological Survey of India ; no. 44)
BalanceRestored 09:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Indiawale (
talk)
14:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC) From User Indiawale to User Abecedare
This article is well referenced pointing to almost 10 sources (see the end section and various links.) It is well balanced since it talks about others' point of view (including Vishwakarma's prosecution.) India is a caste centric society, the Gods' statue building work in ancient India's temples was done by Vishwakarmas. This can be verified to this day (please refer to the landmark six-part documentary series for PBS and the BBC by Michael Wood
http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia )
Let me know why you are claiming this article is inaccurate?
BalanceRestored 12:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
BalanceRestored 05:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
No, all the 5. It is not just goldsmiths. BalanceRestored 10:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Did you find citation for the same, there's lot more than that. If you did find the same, kindly cite BalanceRestored 05:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
"Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 18", By James Hastings, Page 599, states the following "Panchals have the Brahmanic sanskars, or sacraments, and perform their ceremonies according to the Vedic Ritual. Frequent attempts were made in the days preceding British rule to deny them the rights to these Brahmanic privileges; but when the decision of pandits, or religious advisers when referred to, was in their favor." BalanceΩrestored Talk 18:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
BalanceΩrestored Talk 18:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Per the above discussion, Viswabrahmin has been redireced to this article. The last version of that article may have material that would be useful here. Spartaz Humbug! 06:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
As asked by User:Indiawale, here are some of the issues I see with the article:
A previous version article was reasonably referenced and written, and it mey be best to revert to that version and slowly add sourced information instead of trying to clean up this mess. Abecedare ( talk) 00:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Indiawale ( talk) 04:24, 4 March 2009 (UTC) User Abecedare, following is my explanation:
Indiawale ( talk) 13:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC) Reader Abecedare, I will edit the article, add the references provided in the article and then remove the tag.
Abecedare, I live in a democratic country, everyone has equal rights. You not being reasonable and logical would qualify as disruptive too and your account would be blocked for disruptive behavior. You had marked this article as POV without giving reasons. When I challanged you and asked for reasons you requested 24 hours time and then added your claims, after the fact. This is a hightly disruptive behavior Indiawale ( talk) 05:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Indiawale, It's good that you have added a reference to the article. However citing Griffith's translation of Rigveda, the
way you did doesn't help with the referencing issues. You need to specify, which sentence(s) in the article are supported by which verse(s) of the Rigveda. See
WP:Cite#Inline_citations on how to do so, and in particular, read about the
footnote system. If you need technical help, just ask.
Abecedare (
talk)
18:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare have patience, I was not done yet!
Regarding the rig veda book I mentioned, please refer to pages 591 and 592. The 10th mandal of rig veda has two suktas 81 and 82. Each of these have 7 mantras each, making a total of 14 mantras exclusively talking about Vishwakarma. Few examples, Hymn LXXXII, Mantra 1, and I quote here, "Vishwakarma who made the light that enables the eye to see, He engendered the water and the heaven and earth floating in the water." Mantra 2, and I quote again, "Mighty in mind and power is Vishwakarma, Maker, Disposer, and most lofty Presence, the highest image or object of spiritual contemplation."
I am giving you a few examples, since I cannot possibly types pages and pages of information, so I would request that you read these and other passages directly from the book.
The above quoted passges describe the importance of Vishwakarma and how he is the builders and architect.
In addition, please get the following books from the publisher Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt Ltd: 1) Brahmavaivaryta puran, please read, Krishna Janma Khand, aadhyaya 47 2) Atharaveda, please read 19 kand, sukta 34 (10 mantras) and 35 (5 mantras) 3) Skanda Purana please read Kashi Khand, Skanda Purana please read Prabhas Khanda 4) Vayu Purana please read adhaya 22 5) Matsya Purana please read Adhaya 5 6) Yajurved, please read adhaya 17, mantra 17 to 34. A few examples of these mantras are Mantra 1: Vishwakarma, the Omnific, is represented in this hymn as the universal father anf generator, the creator of all things and Architect of the worlds. He who sat down as Hotar-priest, the Rsi, our father, offering up all things existing, He seeking through his wish a great possession, came among men on earth as archetypal. Mantra 2: What was the placve whereon he took his station? What was it that supported him? How was it? Whence Vishwakarma, seeing all, producing the earth, with mighty power disclosed the heavens. Mantra 3: He who hath eyes on all sides round about him, a mouth on all sides, arms and feet on all side. He the sole God, producing earth and heaven, weldeth them, with his arms as wing, together. Mantra 7: Let us invoke to-day, to aid our labour, the Lord of Speech, the though-swift Vishwakarma. May he hear kindly all our invocations who gives all bliss for aid, whose works are righteous. Again, I would request you to directly read this from the book. The said articles should be referred to regarding the origin of the Vishwa Brahmins and also regarding them being Shilpis, engineers, builders, artist and architects. I would also suggest that you seek advise from someone who is an expert in reading and intepreting ancient text and it's language.
And one more thing! Someone has added more information regarding the Chittor judgement! Please refer to the following books in Telgu: Title is "Chittooru Zilla Adhalath Court Theerpu" Publishers: C.V KRISHNA BOOK DEPO, p.b no 1805, 121 AMMAN KOVEL STREET, SOWKAR PET POST, CHENNAI 600079, Price 30/- The above mentioned book was translated in Tamil too and published by K.P. Subbaian, Sri Lakshmi Jewellery, Big Bazar Street, Coimbatore, TN, India
I would suggest that the POV tag be taken out of this article. Indiawale ( talk) 05:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare, don't worry, I will keep on editing this. At the same time I need you to be reasonable and logical! I can wake up a person who is sleeping but cannot wake-up someone who is pretending to be asleep! The information provided regarding emenient Vishwabrahmin personalities is well cited. Just click the hyperlinks provided and checkout the detail articles regarding these individuals (including references.)
Indiawale (
talk)
05:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I see, so now you have started using another login! As I said earlier click on the links provided, read them and then come back. Indiawale ( talk) 15:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
User Abecedare, please check examples of some of the links I provided such as ones regarding Giani Zail Singh, Dalip Singh Saund, Harbhajan Singh, Monty Panesar, Gursharan Singh, M. K. Thyagaraja Bhagavathar, Brahmanandam, Jagjit Singh, Gulzar (lyricist), Veeru Devgan, Ameet Channa, Kulvinder Ghir. Please note that these are eminient individuals and nobody is making this up! For example, Giani Zail Singh was the PRESIDENT of Indial. As the link says, he had a humble start in life and his father was a CARPENTER who was killed in an automobile accident. Carpenters are Vishwakarmas! Please explain why you are sticking to the a position that the list of Eminent Vishwabrahmin Individuals is not cited correctly? Also, Dalip Singh Saund (September 20, 1899–April 22, 1973) was a member of the United States House of Representatives. He is quite a famous person since, he was the first Asian American, Indian American and Sikh member of the United States Congress! Please check the reference section of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalip_Singh_Saund . Indiawale ( talk) 16:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Also, Lord Vishwakarma and Vishwakarma caste are directly related. GSB, Chitpavan and COBRA Brahmins don't follow Lord Vishwakarma and neither do the Namboodaripads. So your attempt to delink lord Vishwakarma from Vishwkarma caste and that too when it's well known that in India, people marry, vote in election and socially bond based on their hereditary profession/caste, is quite absurd. Indiawale ( talk) 05:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I will provide links regarding the hereditary caste system in India and also that certain dieties are followed by certain castes. It's surprising that someone with an Indian sounding name and discussing India issues would pretend to be ignorant of the caste system. Indiawale ( talk) 15:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
User Nvineeth, Wiki has page on the caste system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system There are more than 50+ references. Do you want me to retype these references here? Example of some of the references are: "Early Evidence for Caste in South India," p. 467-492 in Dimensions of Social Life: Essays in honor of David G. Mandelbaum, Edited by Paul Hockings and Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, New York, Amsterdam, 1987.
Also regarding Vishwakarma being the deity of the engineers, artists and craftsmen caste, a few days back, I had provided the following information and more on this page. To this day in India, September 17th (the Birthday of Lord Vishwakarma) is celeberated by industrial houses, artists and craftsman. The festival is observed on the Kanya Sankranti Day (September) which follows the Ganesh Puja. Following is a link from the higly esteemed national level Indian newspaper, The Telegraph, regarding this holiday ( http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080917/jsp/calcutta/story_9844650.jsp). Please refer to the annual calendar published by the Government of India - Ministry of Personnel, that lists September 17 as Vishwakarma Jayanti. Following are more links regarding the engineering caste celeberating this festival:
Indiawale ( talk) 15:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare, based on discussion on the List of Hindu scriptures article, can I assume that the Absence of Concensus is also not a valid reason to mark articles as POV? Please confirm this?
Indiawale (
talk)
16:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The term Viswakarma might have been assumed it present form from the term like Karmakara and their vedic social groups like Viss. In vedic period these karmakaras were respected people among the general public.Rg 1V.35-5,6; IV.32-1.Atharva veda [paippalada vyakyanam] says’’ye takshano rathakara karmarayo maneeshina……..111.56[ref shudras in ancient India by R.S sharma] .A mere recitation form the vasthu shatra will not make anyone the Stapathi. Instead he should be well versed with the craft of installation also.In this reason Stapathies were emerged from Takshaka Karmakara communities. Vasthuvidyam says ‘’Viswakarmakacharyo gurutvat viswakarmanam sthapathih sthapanam kurvan iti silpir vidhiyate’The famous Brahadisvara temple of Raja Raja Chola I (tenth century) has the name of the architect proudly engraved on it by the master craftsman himself as ‘Kunjaramallan Raja Raja Perunthachan. the Chebrolu inscription of 1118, the Nadindla inscription of 1141 and the Tellapur inscription dated 1417, all state that the smiths and sculptors belong to the Vishwakarma kula., another inscriptional record (dated 1177) from Macherla in Palnad taluq, Guntur district of Andhra Pradesh links the Vishwakarma to Brahma the divine creator.35 The record refers to the smiths as ‘Vishwakarma Kulaja’ [ref VISHWAKARMA CRAFTSMEN IN EARLY MEDIEVAL PENINSULAR INDIA by VIJAYA RAMASWAMY] More over there are verses like’’Viswakarmasutha pruthae pancha srushti pravarthika, kruthethu manasa srushti thriyanam drushtisadakam’’ in Moola skanda puranam Nagara khandam 5.
The non-notable names and those which do not have wikipedia articles are required to be cleaned up in this article -- Sureshmaran ( talk) 06:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
There are some interesting points in this article http://www.ignca.nic.in/ps_01011.htm it will be great if someone adds them to the main article. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 10:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Someone feels the need to obscure the fact that the Vshwakarmas of Kerala fall way down the caste hierarchy and were generally considered as lower castes by the other prominent caste groups namely the Nairs and the Ezhavas who are themselves very low in the caste order.This fact need not be hidden anyway, however embarrassing it maybe or however highly, might we consider our antecedents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mksuraj ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Looking at a few resources, some places are indicating that Vishwakarma and Kammalar are two names for the same group of five craftsman communities. Are these terms synonymous, and the articles need to be merged? If not, what is the distinction? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 15:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Can someone please explain how Sinai Dhume, Anant Ramkrishna (1986). The cultural history of Goa from 10000 B.C.-1352 A.D. Ramesh Anant S. Dhume, 1986. p. 37. meets our reliable sources policy. Who is/was the author? Who is/was the publisher? What other works have both author & publisher produced? Why does it have the appearance of being self-published? Is it a peer-reviewed book? Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 04:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I have just restored an earlier, not very good version of the article. The subsequent contributor initiated a discussion on my talk page here but has now withdrawn from the conversation. In any event, that was not the appropriate place to resolve the problem, which is basically one of defining exactly what this group may be.
I do not deny that they exist but we already have numerous articles - eg: Panchal and Sunar - and there appears to be a massive overlap/duplication going on. It needs to be sorted out before people waste even more time. - Sitush ( talk) 10:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Vishwakarma is Ariya Shilpy ( Deva Shilpy ) but "Maya" who is son of vishwakarma is Asura Shilpy so there is Ariya Dravida mixing and some fake story created after ariya migration to south india.
There was one more veda called "Pranava Veda" i think "Vyasa" destroyed it and then classified the Vedas into four parts
1, Rigveda 2, Yajurveda 3, Samaveda 4, Atharvaveda
5, Pranava Veda
Vishwakarma Caste following this 5 vedas till now, What is the real story behind this 5th veda?
Read this article in discover magazine about south Asian ancestry and vishwakarma brahmin ( Tamil vishwakarma ) who was the part of "Maya". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.114.176 ( talk) 20:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Your statement made above regarding Sanskrit language is not valid. Sanskrit(cassical) was never a spoken language.Prakrit was spoken language.No communities in Indian ever spoke Sanskrit.They always spoke Prakrit. Nijgoykar ( talk) 03:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Orthodox Vishwakarmans follow a strict vegetarian diet. The following edit [3] was reverted. I have added further references.
I have added further reference to Vegetarianism. If more references are required please do let me know. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 04:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
On what basis is this [10] revert done. The reason cited is "Sri Aurobindo Kapāli Sāstry Institute of Vedic Culture"'s source being unreliable. Kindly explain why is this source unreliable.
This source was used to show the relation between Yajur Veda TS (4.3.3) and Vishwakarma Gotra rishis. The source cited the following "TS (4.3.2) mentions the five ŗşhīs namely Vasişhţha, Bharadvāja, Vishvāmitra, Jamadagni and Vishvakarma; RV (10.137) mentions seven ŗşhīs: Bharadvāja, Kashyapa, Gotama, Atri, Vishvāmitra and Vasişhţha. During Sandhya worship, one repeats the names of seven ŗşhīs. The list varies from gotra to gotra. One version is: Atri, Bhŗgu, Kutsa, Vasişhţha, Gotama, Kashyapa, Angirasa. (4.3.3) mentions five ŗşhīs Sanaga, Sanātana, Ahabūna, Pratna, Suparņa. The Vishvakarma Brāhmins who build temples and sculpt the forms of deities trace their lineage to these five ŗşhīs." further excerpts from the same book [11] Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 10:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Anyone read "Sankara Vijaya" to explain the truth,
Adi Sankaracharya was the son of a Vishwakarma (Twashtha). In Sri Sankara Vijaya there is a sloka "Acharyo sankarao nama, Twostha putra nisamshaya, Viprakula gurordweeksha, Vishwakarman thu Brahmana." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.200.223.228 ( talk) 10:00, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
As for querying reliability, well, it is an old source. Furthermore, when I last looked at it, the journal does not seem often to be cited by academics, I could find out little about the Society that publishes it, and - as I said above - their publications have been used in the past to support some very odd statements that contradicted mainstream thought. Who was the author of the article? That is, what sort of credentials did/do they have? - Sitush ( talk) 08:05, 5 October 2012 (UTC) (forgot to sign)
Sub Caste - Sculptor, Black Smith, Brass Smith, Carpenter, Gold Smith & Priests.
Not for the first time, someone has cited the Andhra Historical Research Society. As on past occasions, the citation appears likely to be a snippet view of the source from GBooks. We really need more than this and, please, if you have access to more then I would appreciate seeing, say, a copy of the relevant page and the ones immediately before and after it. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 21:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
What is this caste name ? commonly using Vishwakarma but Vishwakarma is god, so people using Vishwakarma Caste as common and some Vishwakarma caste people are following through traditional path they are known as Vishwabrahmana but the original name of this caste is Brahmin
According to vedas there is 4 castes ( varnas ) only, 1 Brahmana, 2 Kshatriya, 3 Vaisya, 4 Shudra., so why Vishwakarma caste is brahmana ?
so orginal caste name is Brahmin according to vedas other castes are not brahmin cause there is no evidence like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raghu chandran ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Please refer to the link below:- http://viswakarmasuvarnakar.jimdo.com/chittoor-zilla-adalat-theerpu/ if you guys cant trust the content from this 3rd party website you can get data from those cases fought in the court from the court database. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 13:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
This book has several interesting pages about this caste's efforts to assume Brahmin customs and adapt their social identity. This could be a useful source of citations: http://books.google.com/books?id=sBgLb8XIGR8C&pg=PA128&dq=vishwakarma+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g4e_UZfqHtC40gGVloH4Cw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vishwakarma%20caste&f=false
I'm also wondering if Vishwakarma might be a more common term for this caste, and whether the current choice of title is POV. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 22:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Zack Ajmal are you holding the scale upright or reversed? The oldest human gene turned out to be from TamilNadu and Kerala? "In neighboring Tamil Nadu, geneticists testing DNA of local peoples, genes have been found from 50-60,000 years ago."
http://www.drsheedy.com/early-humans/up-to-12-000-years-ago.php ?? So now you decide?? Would Vedas which is told to be naturally occurring and was narrated by Purusha's face Sadyojataya, Vamadevaya, Aghoraya, Tatpurushaya and Esanaya who's children are Manu, Maya, Tvastar, Shilpi and Visvajna also known as Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhudana, Pratnasa and Supernasa who are the gotra Rishi's of all the Vishwakarmas would it go from Old to NEW or from New to OLD? Also Genetic Puzzle Solvers are you SEENING BLOOD IS RED and common among all? Another fact... how did you arrive at who's in a Brahmin among all? Without the availability of that Zack Ajmal how did you arrive at such a conclusion? Also beyond India there are no traces of Vedic practice among the Europeans? I never got any answer for this question so far from anyone? Also Krishna Yajur Veda followers (predominantly south indians) are older to Shukla Yajur Veda (predominantly north indians). Zack Ajmal this is the most under researched report ever seen This is an under researched report. There are so many determinable parameters missing in your report. The No.1 characteristics of a Brahmin is they will not speak or think ill about others. In the end one is naturally bound to save oneself. How does the DNA report of your distinguish these characteristics i.e. "they will not speak or think ill about others"?
Ganesh J. Acharya (
talk)
08:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
First off, editors haven't provided any authoritative references for "the V. caste built all/most/many of the temples in India". So we can't take that as a given if folks don't provide sourcing. Further, even if we proceed assuming they built a large number of quality temples, that doesn't necessarily support any claim that they are Brahmins, or descended from gods, or in some unbroken lineage since the time of the Vedas. While we can certainly record the community's impression of itself, with proper academic sourcing, we can't go around quoting Vedas as though it explains history unbroken for thousands of years following. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to Vishwakarma (caste). Now, I'm going to request that you all be more careful about this kind of thing in the future. While an article had begun to develop at Vishwabrahmin in parallel, the main article on this topic had long been at Vishwakarma (caste). For reasons unknown to me, about a month ago, the Vishwakarma (caste) article (with its longer history) was changed to a redirect to the Vishwabrahmin, which was then expanded in the following weeks. And then, just a few hours ago, someone effectively performed a cut-and-paste move back to Vishwakarma (caste). This, of course, is not how moves and merges are supposed to take place, and fixing this problem is annoying, problematic, and confusing. What I did was keep the history of Vishwabrahmin from before about May 30 (only 46 revisions) at that article's history. A redirect is now in place to the current article, which contains all 2200+ revisions from Vishwakarma (caste) from before that date, the 119 revisions from Vishwabrahmin after that date, and, due to technical limitations, the roughly 8 revisions from Vishwakarma (caste) after that date. Yeah, annoying. Moral of the story: please don't do cut-and-paste moves. -- tariqabjotu 14:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Vishwabrahmin →
Viswakarma (caste) – For a while we had parallel articles developing, but eventually an editor blanked
Vishwakarma (caste) and
Viswakarma and redirected them to this title. However, with even some basic GoogleBooks look searching the various terms (and with "caste" to be sure I was getting the group and not the god) it really seems that Viswakarma is the popular spelling for this group. I'm also concerned that the title "Viswabrahmin" might be close to POV as a promotional name for the caste, given that apparently a lot of other castes don't agree with their usage of the term "brahmin". I suggest that the past Talk page of
Vishwakarma (caste) be merged into this one since it has a lot of good/detailed past discussion, and then this whole lot be moved over to
Viswakarma
Viswakarma (caste) as the most common term per
WP:COMMONNAME.
MatthewVanitas (
talk)
01:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I have created the original page Vishwakarma (caste) again and have redirected Vishwabrahmin to this article since everyone has voted in favor of the same. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 05:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
An user has replaced text from deity article with text about caste [24], which can be incorporated here. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
References to older Discussions at this article were originally discussed here Talk:Vishwakarma_(caste)/Archive_1. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 08:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
These sections seem to copied from some wiki page with [1] references and [citation needed] tags. Can someone fix it. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
This page has been bounced around several different titles in the past few years, and due to some sloppy moves (and apparently totally undiscussed ones) there's been some sloppiness with page histories, such as that there's not a clear continuous thread of evolution of the title. The article has also been pretty abjectly horrible through much of its history, and is currently getting a lot of IP attention to the point that I'm wondering if this is yet another Orkut "hey guys come save our caste from defamation on Wikipedia!!!" campaign.
In whatever case, we need to move this current version to a decent title, then go through it with a fine-tooth comb to get rid of the junk. Also my initial pokings are leading me to wonder if this whole caste isn't just a fancy name for Panchal, and maybe a lot of this can be more properly grouped under a different title. I went in today and cut out more ridiculous phrasing like "many beautiful temples are due to this blessed caste", but this one is going to be a handful, and if IPs keep tampering this may need page protection as well.
Anyone have suggestions on how to get an admin to help us do some History merges and also merges of alternate Talk pages so we can try and get all the history and all the discussion into one unified body? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 00:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Vishwabrahmin monthly google search count is 3600 Vishwakarma monthly google search count is only 1600 check via google keyword tool https://adwords.google.com/o/KeywordTool
so change the title to Vishwabrahmin ( Vishwakarma Caste ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.14.227.105 ( talk) 16:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
106.79 raises an interesting point which used to be covered in the article but disappeared over the many convoluted drafts. There's been some political complications with (if I recall right) some in the community claiming Brahmin status and others wanting OBC in order to get better opportunities for their disadvantaged members. If I recall right, there are similar cases of self-identified "Rajput" groups who find themselves caught between claiming Rajput status, but also wanting to make use of caste reservations to secure college spots, etc. It really is fascinating politics, and by just hand-waving "they're Brahmins" we're really being unfair to the reader and even the community by endorsing a santised/POV version of history rather than exploring the complications. Thanks for bringing that up 106.79! MatthewVanitas ( talk) 19:45, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
ADI Shankara is a Visvakarma and the same is quoted in Shankara Vijaya. The reference was brought out by the research organization Andhra Historical Research Society in this Journal commonly abbreviated as J.A.H.R.S. Respectable Organizations like Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) do importantly refer to findings from "Andhra Historical Research Society" [25], [26], [27], [28], [29].
As an interesting parallel, if you note Talk:Rumi, there's ongoing feuding as to his nationality, and the pro-Turk side always loves to bring up some line where he says "I am a Turk". But then other folks point out that the actual context of the poem is that he's saying "Human beings are all the same thing", in the sense that being a Turk or an Inuit are fundamentally equivalent. In any case, I am skeptical if the argument for his being a a Viswakarma is a song he did. And the claim that "only Viswakarmas could be jatgurus" only undermines the argument, as it gives more reason that he could've simply been claiming that caste for political reasons to justify his role. Fundamentally, I'm just not sure that mentioning him really adds to our understanding of the caste. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 16:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
User:MatthewVanitas has questioned "why bother mentioning the YV passage in the main body?". The reason is, the source specifically quotes, "The Vishvakarma Brāhmins who build temples and sculpt the forms of deities trace their lineage to these five ŗşhīs "Sanaga, Sanātana, Ahabūna, Pratna, Suparņa" are mentioned in Yajur Veda TS (4.3.3). Should readers not know where are the five ŗşhīs mentioned in Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita? Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 17:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
In fact MatthewVanitas Original brahmins mutilated the Brahma,and expelled him from the pantheon,and now worshiping other gods. Viswakarmas still follows the duty of brahma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.14.111 ( talk) 18:45, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
User:Redtigerxyz 1. Why did you introduce the word "namesake" [32] and 2. Why did you remove parts of the original epigraphic writings that stated Lord Visvakarma ancestor to the Visvakarma Caste is Lord Vishvakarma who is son of Brahma, father-in-law of Sun. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vishwakarma_%28caste%29&diff=563245585&oldid=563198362 stating WP:UNDUE. Are you not aware that there are multiple (around 10-12, updated by a very reliable source) different Visvakarmas in Vedic History? The source "Andhra Historical Research Society" that quoted epigraphic writing has specifically clarified [33] parts of the epigraphic contents as "The record says that Visvakarama, son of Brahma was the proginator of the achitects and father- in-law of the sun Visvakarama is stated to have converted the rays of the sun, his son-in-law into devine weapons e.g. discus of Vishnu." [34]. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 02:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I am proposing this article for deletion. This article has never given any proper and thorough information on the Vishwakarma caste. From the time the article was created (2 July 2007) till now, no effort has been made to improve and clean up the article to make it more understandable for people who don't belong to the Vishwakarma caste. It does not look like anyone is going to improve it either in the near future, so hence my action. 59.92.143.66 ( talk) 06:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
create Shilpy and Vishwajnya page ( Vishwakarma's 4th and 5th sons ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.196.113.6 ( talk) 10:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
I do not know what are the intention of many writers who have written about this community. This community has not just been traditionally into just some small crafts and artistic work, but have been Architects and Engineers to many massive accomplishments. So, certain malice intent is very clear with certain sources, or these sources have horribly flawed research practices. Request editors to check sources very carefully from this angle or it is not the community that will be effected in any way, it is the intent of the writers getting exposed in front of the world. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 08:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
The article is missing a critical information about Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhuvana, Pratnasa and Supernasa that is the 5 rishis in Krishna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 4.3.3. Also there are persistent narrations found w.r.t The five faces of Visvakarma — Sadajata, Vamadeva, Aghora, Tatpurusa, Isana — gave rise to the Panchabiahmans i.e. Sanaga, Sanatana, Abhudana, Pratnasa and Supernasa Rishis "The makers of the world: caste, craft, and mind of South Indian artisans Author Jan Brouwer". The book Visvakarma and his descendants by Alfred Edwards Roberts also mentions "His five faces were differently named as Sadyojataya, Vamadevaya, Aghoraya, Tatpurushaya and Esanaya and from each of these he begot a son from Sadayojata Manu; from Vamadevaya Maya; from Aghoraya Twashtar; from Tatpurushaya Shilpi and from Esanaya Visvajna; known also as Sanaga, Sanatana, Pratnasa, Abhuwansa, and Supernasa Rishis respectively;" Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 03:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
it is good to mention it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 05:18, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
User:Sitush This article does not consider views and opinions from any of books written by the 18 crore Vishwakarma members and is purely relying on Non-Vishwakarma members? All the sources chosen are either from Christians writers or from Non-Vishwakarmas members? This is like editing articles on Christianity but choosing the views and opinions of Muslims and Non-Christian writers? Hopelessly written according to me. Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 06:16, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
“who were the original Brahmins?”
The case was between Viswa Brahmins [also known as Poursheya Brahmins] and Arsheya Brahmins. The court is reported to have delivered3 judgement [case no 205, Chitoor District Court, 15/12/1818] in favour of Viswa Brahmins based on the Gotras of the Brahmins.
In general Brahmins are two types. Poursheya Brahmins & Aarsheya Brahmins
1). Poursheya Brahmins are the Brahmins from the ‘PURUSHA’ and we know the lord VISWAKARMA is the purusha in Vedas (this describes the purusha suktha, that suktha describes about viswakarma only. This is well known to all scholars) Poursheya Brahmins are ‘Manu brahma, Maya brahma, Thwashta brahma, Daivagna brahma, Viswagna brahma’. from these Brahmins, viswakarma generations are started.
2). Aarsheya Brahmins are from ‘rishis’ they are their ‘saptha rishis’. ‘kausika (son of a heap), jambuka(son of a fox), gouthama (son of a cow), vyasa (son of a fisher woman), vasishta(son of a bitch), gargeya (son of donkey), suka (son of a parrot), saunaka (son of a dog), Rishyasringa (son of deer), vaalmiki (a thief and hunter), saankhya (son of a dalitha). All these are their prime rishis. But they are wearing yagnopaveetham.
Add above maintained details — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.66.185.72 ( talk) 16:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Sitush in my opinion you don't need to consider the content to draw to conclusion but while explaining about the position in the society you could add up this judgement mean why other communities are silent on vishwakarmas claim and how vishwakarma community proved over of its claim, hope it will give more information about the community too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 05:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Vishwabrahmin Gotras
The above are the main gothras(Pancha gothras)
Please find works and details about upa gothras, their names added below
Sanaga brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Sanathana brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Ahabhounasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Prathnasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are
Suparanasa brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are
Vishwakarma caste is group of artists / technician / artisans in the vedic time divided by the number five,
they had knowledge about five elements - ion , wood , brass , stone , gold — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.196.113.7 ( talk) 17:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Sitush asked me to step in here so that's what I'm doing. Ganesh, if you don't like that, that's perfectly fine and you can ignore this and go for some other, more formal, sort of dispute resolution. I do hope, however, that we can figure things out at a lower key here since you both are excellent editors. My reading of the situation is as follows. Broadly speaking, Ganesh feels that the description of the Vishwakarma caste in our article does not match what he knows about the caste (as a member and from various religious texts). More specifically, there is a claim, sourced to various religious texts, that people of this caste are Brahmins and that the article should state that. Sitush, and earlier MatthewVanitas, on the other hand, relying mainly on secondary sources state that the Brahmin identification is claimed by the caste itself but is not necessarily the reality and that the article should therefore use the adjective claimed along with the Brahmin identification. Is that a reasonable summary? -- regentspark ( comment) 20:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Let's see what Ganesh comes up with Sitush. I'm asking for something to be proposed here on the talk page, not something that will be directly incorporated in the text. Once he's proposed a couple of sentences, we can examine the sources and figure things out. -- regentspark ( comment) 14:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Ganesh, that doesn't qualify as a specific proposal. You need to do the following. Identify one or two sentences in the article as it is now written. Present an alternative text that you believe should replace those sentences. Present sources that back up that text (no editorial comments are necessary along with the sources, they should speak for themselves). Then we'll have something we can evaluate. Right now, all I'm seeing is a bunch of loosy goosy philosophical statements that are not actionable. -- regentspark ( comment) 18:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
http://www.jangidbrahminsamaj.com/vansh/index.htm link may help out in sorting out the ambiguity about the community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 05:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Vishwakarma/Vishwabrahmin/Asari/Achary and etc., are quite synonymous. Hence this article may be merged to the given article. Balablitz ( talk) 23:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Better to mention different surnames of the community and merging all of them in one single article like archarya/sharma/panchal..etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.42 ( talk) 11:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
The synonymity is found in external links/sources of previous topics/issues discussed in this talk page. A example is, these Chari (caste) were off-shoot of Vishwakarma Manu Maya, came to goa just before the portuguese set hold in Goa and helped them in construction and finally settled there. Even the Goa government seems to consider chari on par with Viswakarma. It is better to pool all the sub-castes/divisions under one article. -- Balablitz ( talk) 18:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Please go through the page 567 in "Vishwakarma craftsmen in early medieval peninsular india by Vijaya Ramaswamy" book in support of this merge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.73.165.41 ( talk) 07:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Hope you will do the same with page Acharya too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.4.125.25 ( talk) 10:23, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I suspect certain users here are participating in wikipedia in such a way that Communities in India would start quarreling against each other. User:Sitush and a huge bunch of other editors are persistently referring to sources those that are presenting a biased opinion from misguided writers... and they want only misguided writers opinions? Why? Also the dating of Eastern articles through out wikipedia is being reduced from the actual. I think wikipedia project should stop if it is here to present only hidden agendas. Please check the comments on this page. Please check what User:Sitush cited on Adi Shankara's Talk page. I think wikipedia is moving ahead in a very unhealthy manner. I request moderators to intervene. I am not a regular editor even though I have been participating for couple of years now. Even though I have been providing sources after sources editors like User:Sitush are reverting the same. All Indians should fight and die reading these opinions is that what you all want? And then meatpuppets/ Sock puppets come and support the same. All this is well planned... I do not know if A-Z all the editors around are here for the same what User:Sitush and group is upto. Request Moderator intervention. Why are datings of Indian articles being made one sided? Why are sources only following what the people in the west want to follow about history in the east? Why are other opinions removed persistently? Aryan Dravidian theory.... this nonsense was brought in and injected into the Indian communities and they are being brain washed... DO you know how many deaths have happen so far... Indians do not have mentality of getting into the quarrels of people in the west... Should people start identifying past quarrels of communities all through out the world and start highlighting those and act as though we are helping communities settled down with each other? This is what British did in India. NO .... we are here to want peace among-st all.. We are not like you... We cannot think the way crooked you are thinking... Don't disturb people here.... and be in peace.
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Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 04:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Cyphoidbomb To push the complaint at WP:ANI would be isolating these provoking intentions from the readers who should be reading the biased article and have been creating biased outlook. Let readers know what is going on in here. Why isolate this incident? Also how do I know how big is this lobby? Is the incident going to be treated in an unbiased manner? What if all the members of this lobby start posting at WP:ANI and create a fabricated opinion? Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 09:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
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The page smacks of conspiciousness of brahmin caste being high and any other caste being low.
Firstly, the caste system was made by learned man who kept on changing the original knowledge of caste to his benefits and whims and fancies. However, if Vishwakarma existed in vedas and puranas and the point is not disputed that vishwakarma is in-law of surya deva (the sun god) then any descendentants of vishwakarma are pre-vedic. The brahmin gothras are only based on rishis who got veda from gods, so definetely vishwakarma don't need brahmin for their survival. This is not a question of superiority in caste system. The vishwakarma only take pride in being helpful to the mankind in five ways of working which keeps the day-to-day life going for every human being in this world. God bestowed everything in this world for living being to live a meaningful life but in no purana or veda or any other texts it is clearly told that brahmana caste is superior and others are inferior. God don't need any offerings. It is only the shlokas created by conspiracy by learned scholars at later days in sanskrit that try to give importance to brahmana caste. There is no superior human being than being good and useful to others and god don't need bridges between god and living beings. Be happy to be given respect by ignorant people. If Pranava Veda says anyone can pray god and hear and learn veda and natya shastra then there is not divide in the society but only divided by learned scholars who hid this veda from getting known to comman man.
Finally, the time has come for us to know that the religion, caste and community has no meaning unless it is beneficial to common man irrespective of religion, race, caste, color, or even animals need to be shown respect as a living being in god's creation. We don't need huge purana, veda or any spiritual texts to know this truth. Internet is more than enough to change this world order....Thanks who ever contributed for this technology evolution which disseminates evety bit of information and separates thrash and theories from belief systesm that are practical applicability of better living. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.235.236 ( talk • contribs) 08:59, 6 February 2014
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Can I delete this section? Ganesh J. Acharya ( talk) 07:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Please provide link's to karmakar,lohar, and Rathakara.
I request editor to read the complete book and populate appropriate content and not irrelevant content.
In the reference provided it is clearly mentioned more than once about the position as some what "The status or position of the Kammala(vishwakarama) is mixed/confused and varied periodically from Higher than Brahmin to lower shudra periodically."
links that may help to update position:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathakara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmakar
only godly origin(south Indian side) is populate how about human origin followed in north, east,west side of India please do update in this regard also.
links that may help update origin:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathakara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmakar
Is it relevant?how? anyway The respective author(reference provided) in successive pages clear tells that he dont have answer/proof regarding this theory so...... e.g:- sanskrition products like madwa, smarta,vaishnavas and lingayats had madwaacharya,shankaracharya, ramanuacharya and Basavanna to convert but no such single entity for this community and that too all over the country is found and also period they had under gone sanskrition??
some racist contents removed from 'Position in society' The Modern Anthropology of India: Ethnography, Themes and Theory quoted contents from M N srivasan's book, it is not reliable source and that book doesn't have academical credential. Gopalan Acharya ( talk) 20:59, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
My dear editor kindly let me know where in the book it is mentioned as "This claim to Brahmin status is not generally accepted outside the community, despite their assumption of some high-caste traits, such as wearing the sacred thread, and the Brahminisation of their rituals" and "Their position as a left-hand caste has not aided their ambition" also I really dont know why Lingayat are being coated here who are unknow in Rajathan or north states.Please do let me know do you have any hidden agenda?
however, In my understanding according to the book M.N.srinivas provides reason why vishwakarma call themself vishwakarma Brahmins and reason is left hand caste and hence brahminical life style, however i have added exact sentences for book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.36.209 ( talk) 17:16, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
If so can you please do let me know page number and stance in the book exactly. I never told it *is* not a reliable source but of understanding skill of the editor ho misunderstanding the content.According to the book M.N.srinivas provides reason why vishwakarma call themself vishwakarma Brahmins and reason is simply left hand caste and hence brahminical life style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.107.134.183 ( talk) 02:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
when and where did I told vishwakarmas belong to brahmin caste? why are you try to run away from the actual topic please don't do that. My point is vishwakarmas belong to left-hand caste and all left-hand caste like Devanga, Daivgnas use Brahmin word along with there caste name in order to provide message to society that they belong to left-hand caste and follow brahminical life style.
Regarding page 128 My dear liar editor where it is mentioned as "This claim to Brahmin status is not generally accepted outside the community, despite their assumption of some high-caste traits, such as wearing the sacred thread, and the Brahminisation of their rituals" and "Their position as a left-hand caste has not aided their ambition"
I am unable to find even words like ambition, accepted...etc please let me know in which paragraph it is present in page 128. please don't run away from the actual topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.203.159.68 ( talk) 17:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
since liar editor is silent and have no courtesy to put back correct information I am putting back the right information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.202.92.191 ( talk) 10:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Derrett, John Duncan Martin. Essays in Classical and Modern Hindu Law: Dharmaśāstra and related ideas. pp. 45, 46. Please updated as per this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.4.125.25 ( talk) 10:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Violation of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view(WP:NPOV)so modified. By the By is above is valid?
@ ( User :Sitush) Words "This claim to Brahmin status is not generally accepted outside the community" i can not see this type of content in that book, first of MN sreenivasan's sanskritization research was in karnataka vishwakarma people, not about all indian vishwakarma community.
Vishwakarma brahmin is different from 'poojari brahimin' ( purohit brahmins )but somewhere in india ( karnataka ) a few viswakarma caste members may trying to become purohit brahmin that may the research topic of M N Sreenivas sanskritization., this has no any relation with all indian vishwakarma community.
Vishwakarma caste members are refer as purusheya brahmin ( born with designing skill ) not purohit ( poojari ) brahmin., these two type of brahmins are exist in Hinduism both are using same surnames, this is the major misunderstanding in many historians like MGS , vijay ramaswamy and M N Sreenivas etc.. they thought its sanskritization of vishwakarma caste. read page number 559 Gopalan Acharya ( talk) 20:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
while division the society in four cast as manu smriti as Brahmin (who is master of knowledge), Kshatriya (master of power), Vaishya (master of business) & shudra (master of services), there all professionals of society divided in this four type categories. where not only Pandit is brahman due to his devotional knowledge but vishwakarman is also is brahman due to his scientific and artistic knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:C18C:7AE5:B128:A481:45EA:FA31 ( talk) 15:31, 9 July 2017 (UTC)