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	Vikings is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result April 18, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 22, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

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Dear Wikipedians,

I am the person responsible for getting the "intermixing with the Slavs" into the article. I was (partly still am) a teen in their angst (and I am partly Slavic origin) when I decided to insert that piece, convinced as I was of some sort of "Germanic" conspiracy whereby everything has to be of Germanic origin and everything Germanic is totally "pure". Reading on, and reading on, in and especially outside Wikipedia, I learned many things, and several ways of looking at them, including objectivity, so I started to stop taking it personally and appreciate things for what they are and look at stuff impersonally. The piece about the intermixing with the Slavs was the only "bad-faith" edit I did, but it was one big time. It was basically a hoax and I am surprised it made it to the stable article without anybody protesting. The piece I added is basically OR (all the nobility connections) + Leszek Gardeła and Natalia Radziwillowicz making some exceptional claims. Everytime I look at this otherwise very good article I feel guilty for putting such stuff into Wikipedia. I think this section should be immediately removed. There are other reasons as well, because I think this type of hoax (that the Vikings significantly intermixed with the Slavs) can be used by both sides of Scandinavian (and non-Scandinavian) extremists (if you think about it you can understand why, otherwise I will explain). Regardless, I don't want to be responsible for this, so I wrote this message, withdrawing my support for this section. If possible I would ask for all my edits on this page to be removed (though I remember something about it being impossible to remove after it enters stable article). P.S.: if it is necessary to successfully delete this stuff, I can provide admins with evidence I am the person who inserted that material into this page. Viking123456789 ( talk) 21:11, 28 July 2023 (UTC) reply

Should we include in this article the section "Intermixing with the Slavs"? As I stated in the previous section, I am the author of that paragraph, and I originally made it as a hoax. It was the only bad faith edit I made, and I am surprised it made it this far. I don't want to have burdens on my conscience, I learned to be objective and that stuff just can't stay in any article. It is WP:OR mixed with POV-pushing and extraordinary claims. Viking123456789 ( talk) 20:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply

I don't know if this is all true or not, because I haven't looked through the history to see when it was first added. What I do know, since I started watching this article, is that the section has been edited and added onto many times, with many discussions that can be found in the archives of this page. Maybe you did initially insert it as a hoax, I don't know, but it has apparently attracted the attention of many people of Slavic descent who have been very adamant about expanding it (often with rather poor sources that were usually rejected). Whatever the case, it has apparently grown and changed since it was first inserted.

People often seem to think of these historical peoples as stagnant, as if they did not travel around, intermarry, or otherwise "plant their seed in someone else's garden". None of these peoples were isolated from each other. They traded. They raided. They pillaged and raped, and those actions were by no means limited to the Vikings. It was a different time, just after the Migration Period, and people got around. Whether by choice or by force, they interbred, a lot.

In every generation, people always seem to think we know it all. It takes a genius to realize what they don't know. In todays generation, people think DNA is the end-all/be-all, but what we know about it is miniscule to what we don't. What is known but most people forget is that blending inheritance is not a thing. By family tree, I am of Welsh descendance. By DNA I'm mostly Norse, but my brother's DNA shows he is mostly Celtic, yet we both have the same parents. I have traces of Slavic DNA, as well as a lot of American Native, since my great Grandma was Sioux. Everyone on Earth even has a touch of Neanderthal in them. People intermixed all throughout history, so it's no surprise.

Once something is put in Wikipedia, you no longer have personal control over it. Once it's accepted by the community, you have to gain consensus to delete it. You need to show that the info is wrong, or whatever the case may be. Provide the diffs that show how it was inserted as a hoax. Give us more than just your say so. Zaereth ( talk) 22:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Zaereth I don't know how much they edited it but it seems pretty close to how I had written it if I remember correctly. I can see it obviously attracted the attention of Slavic editors, not only because it interests Slavs directly but also because it "belittles" or "ruins" the reputation of the Vikings and weakens nationalistic Germanic ideas. For the same reason it is probably in the interest of most mixed people and Celts that this stuff stays in the article. When I wrote this hoax I used to think like everything is controlled by good ones and bad ones, the Germanic people were the bad ones and all the history as told by them is corrupted. But then I started to look at things objectively it turns out, when you speak of Germans and Slavs, that the Germans are definitely not the ones making propaganda and rewriting history with crazy claims. I don't want any of this and I feel so guilty for putting this stuff into Wikipedia and shame on all the editors that let it stay here so long!

Now I will address the problem with the section specifically:

a) It was a bad faith edit, intended to ruin the reputation of the Vikings, the most cherished thing of the Germanic peoples whom I thought were the ones writing history their own way

b) This:

The first king of the Swedes, Eric, was married to Gunhild, of the Polish House of Piast. Likewise, his son, Olof, fell in love with Edla, a Slavic woman, and took her as his frilla (concubine). They had a son and a daughter: Emund the Old, King of Sweden, and Astrid, Queen of Norway. Cnut the Great, King of Denmark, England and Norway, was the son of a daughter of Mieszko I of Poland, possibly the former Polish queen of Sweden, wife of Eric.

is pure OR

c) All the rest are extraordinary claims, made by some apparently qualified people, but who are themselves of Slavic origin, namely Leszek Gardeła and Natalia Radziwillowicz. These extraordinary claims are not enough to require a whole section in this article. Maybe a separate article about the "Theory about Slavic contribution to the Vikings" could be created, but I don't think there is enough coverage for that, and since I think this stuff to be pure folly I would not support its creation

Did they find some Slavic remains on Viking territory? So what. They were (EDIT: and are, and the differences hardly changed since back then) neighbouring peoples. And by the way, how did they establish the woman was Slavic in the Smithsonian study, where btw they say new analysis suggests she was Slavic, not proves. But the craziest thing is how Gardela claims out of this that Scandinavia was "a melting pot of Slavic and Scandinavian elements".

I know that this section could feel appealing to some leftist or liberal Scandinavians, but it is against their interest too to keep this stuff in Wikipedia. All it is going to happen is some people will start to explain the weakness of some Scandinavians with Slavic descent. And to the Balkanic and Slavic editors I beg to have the decency to go and edit on their freaking history and their ethnic-related groups. The Vikings were a great people, we must treat this article with the greatest care. Viking123456789 ( talk) 05:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

(Invited by the bot) Answering this RFC as-written thoughtfully would require more research than most respondents would invest. Suggest a more thorough talk page discussion at this point (which seems to not have occurred) rather than an RFC. North8000 ( talk) 00:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

When I looked at the post this morning, I wondered if this confession was a hoax itself. Most of the "Intermixing with the Slavs" section was added with this edit on 17 January 2021 11:59 AM by the now indefinitely blocked sockpuppet account François-Ávila who made some edits to articles on Italian subjects, but mostly on Croatian subjects, and one to the History of Scandinavia article. So? Carlstak ( talk) 02:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Carlstak I already addressed this on my talk page. What you say is true but wikiguides and rules were created to prevent abuse. Here I am trying to fix a (huge) mistake I made while editing. And no, it is not a hoax that I inserted that piece. And I think I can prove it with some back up from the admins. Viking123456789 ( talk) 05:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Carlstak: - SPI needed here? Is this a confession to being a sock puppet by the poster?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

@ TylerBurden: - if Carlstak is right here, this appears to be a case of sockpuppetry, especially since he does not at all "already address[] this on [his] talk page".-- Ermenrich ( talk) 19:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Ermenrich: As you say, Viking123456789 does not address this issue on his talk page at all, despite his assertion to the contrary. If he did indeed make the edit I pointed to, then he is the same editor as the indefinitely blocked François-Ávila account, which was a sockpuppet of the sockpuppeteer Sam.WikiKiwi, who was blocked indefinitely as well as locked globally, and whose SPI case may have involved "cross-wiki abuse." I suppose that would make Viking123456789 a new sockpuppet. In any case, this over-earnest confession doesn't pass the smell test, and set off my bullshit detector when I saw it. Carlstak ( talk) 00:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC) reply

I agree it is likely this user is a sock, they are also going around several other articles removing content they deem "POV-pushing". A term they appear strangely familiar with. TylerBurden ( talk) 01:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC) reply

A pretty obvious false flag confession. Sock: very likely; sockmaster: most likely not François-Ávila/Sam.WikiKiwi. – Austronesier ( talk) 15:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC) reply

Yeah, it's lame. It made me laugh, and continues to be funny, except for the fact that such shenanigans waste editors' time. Carlstak ( talk) 19:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC) reply

The Vikings were never a homogeneous ethnic group; the name itself describes a profession, a way of life and warfare, rather than any particular people. So certainly the intermingling of Scandinavian Vikings with Slavic peoples, as well as Slavs being Vikings or practicing Viking, is a historical fact. Whether this information is important enough to find its place in this article is another matter. Because if she why is there no information about "intermixing" with Greeks, Arabs, Franks, Balts, Scythians, etc.? For this reason, I would be inclined to remove this section, although I will reserve judgment until someone more familiar with the subject takes the floor. Marcelus ( talk) 13:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

Remove Checked the sources of the section, apart from Barford 2001, which I do not have access to. None of those sources state that there where intermixing between Slavs and vikings and the Slavic burial site is circumstantial. I know that with Icelandic vikings, both from Icelandic stories from this period and an genealogy test in the country both show that Icelanders have Celtic women and Norwegian men ancestors.-- Snævar ( talk) 11:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC) reply

That there was intermixing between Slavs and Vikings is quite well established, Kievan Rus', Varangians etc. To my knowledge the only people who oppose that are the antinormanism folks, who are for the most part Slavic nationalists. If the existing sources don't make mention of it, there should be a good selection to pick from that can be added. TylerBurden ( talk) 14:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC) reply

Unfortunately for you, I have read viking stories from the viking era for years. By that I mean the original texts, not translations. The vikings did do business and errands in the Kievan Rus' but they did not at-large intermix with them. Snævar ( talk) 03:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC) reply

"Unfortunately for me"? Like I said this link is established and more sources can be added if needed, the Icelandic Vikings are not very relevant since the Vikings going east were mostly from what is now Sweden. TylerBurden ( talk) 20:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC) reply

Viking123456789, why don't you write out the exact change that you propose to make and see what other talk page participants think? The RFC has problems, but this might easily be resolved by a discussion. North8000 ( talk) 14:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply

Swedish archeological investigations ^{[1] [2]} show that Vikings had horrible dental health – odontogenic infections and tooth decay were common. Majority of vikings were likely plagued by permanent toothaches. I wanted to add this to the article, but found no suitable location.
It could be good to have a section on viking health, including dental health.

Edit: then again, other sources report that vikings had good dental hygiene and remarkably advanced dentistry practices. ^{[3] [4]}
DrUtrecht ( talk) 22:14, 26 December 2023 (UTC) reply

This doesn’t strike me as something that belongs in the main article or is even notable or generalizable.—- Ermenrich ( talk) 00:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Hi, a bouquet from my latest Florilegium. Can/should it be included, or not? Opinions welcome. T

( https://www.worldhistory.org/Vikings/)

The Vikings influenced the culture of every nation they came in contact with and in every conceivable way from architecture to language, infrastructure to poetry and place names, military reforms to food and clothing, and certainly in the areas of warfare and shipbuilding.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-46194699

The Viking system of law contains elements which mirror the ethical codes of many cultures, along with a framework of ownership.

Mr Cooper* explained: "They are still some of the laws we use to this day; don't kill, don't steal. A lot of it related to property and respecting property."

Mr Cooper said: "The Viking system was almost like our current system still works. There was a local Thing, which was a local council. Then there was like, for example, a Shetland-wide Thing. Local Things would send representatives to that. Ultimately there was the King and court in Norway."

In ways, this structure filtered through into egalitarian aspects of Viking society. Mr Cooper said: "Women had rights in Viking times that they lost and didn't regain for 10 centuries. They could own land, they could inherit land, and they could speak at the Things. "They were a fair-minded race. Despite their reputation. they had rules to live by.

(/*Davy Cooper of the Shetland Amenity Trust, my addition/)

https://historymedieval.com/legacy-of-the-viking-age-shaping-europe/

Scholars have proposed different end dates for the Viking Age, with most agreeing that it ended in the 11th century. The conversion of Iceland to Christianity in 1000, the death of Harthacnut, the Danish King of England in 1042, and the Battle of Largs in 1263 are some of the events used to mark the end of the Viking Age. However, a "long Viking Age" may have extended into the 15th century, as the Western Isles, the Isle of Man, Orkney, and Shetland remained under Scandinavian authority until the 13th and 15th centuries.

Despite several attempts by Scandinavian kings to regain control of England, the last of which took place in 1086, Viking presence declined in England. The last major Viking raid was led by Eystein II of Norway in 1152.

Between 790 and 800, the first Viking raids began along the coasts of western France, primarily during the summer. The Vikings took advantage of the disputes in the royal family after the death of Louis the Pious to establish their first colony in Gascony. The raids in 841 caused significant damage to Rouen and Jumièges, with the Vikings targeting the treasures stored at monasteries. In 845, an expedition reached Paris, and the presence of Carolingian deniers in Mullaghboden, County Limerick in 1871 suggests they were likely booty from the raids.

Economic Impact

The Vikings also played a role in the development of a monetary system, as their trading activities required the use of coins and other forms of currency. The Vikings introduced the use of silver coins, which facilitated the exchange of goods and services, making trade more efficient. This led to the widespread adoption of coins as a means of payment, which was crucial for the growth of Europe’s economy.

Another impact of the Vikings on Europe’s economy was the expansion of trade centers. The Vikings established trade centers in cities like Dublin, York, and Paris, which became thriving centers of trade and commerce. These trade centers attracted merchants and traders from all over Europe, who brought with them a wealth of goods and ideas. The establishment of these trade centers allowed for the exchange of goods and services on a large scale, and this greatly contributed to the growth of the European economy.

84.208.65.62 ( talk) 18:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Shouldnt the namr of this wiki page be Changed to Norse society or Norse culture instead of just vikings? Seems more historically accurate. H20346 ( talk) 06:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC) reply

"Vikings" is by far the most recognizable name in English, so it's what we use per WP:COMMONNAME. Other articles like Norse mythology and Norse art use "Norse" as appropriate. Remsense 诉 06:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC) reply