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[3] , no time at moment to work into this. -- MASEM ( t) 13:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm, that rmit.edu.au is a bit sketchy, or at least as I perceive what we take as "art game". The definition used there is For the purposes of this paper, I apply the term “art game” to describe an interactive work, usually humorous, by a visual artist that does one or more of the following: challenges cultural stereotypes, offers meaningful social or historical critique, or tells a story in a novel manner. Is that what everyone else has in mind? or can we confirm this? To me, this definition, while different from "video games as art", does overlap a lot to make the distinction hard, given that "art game" comes from the game developer's intention, while "video games as art" comes from the perception of the released product. -- MASEM ( t) 01:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
[15] came up yesterday. -- MASEM ( t) 16:23, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Please provide your feedback at Talk:Video_game_art#Merge.3F Shawnc ( talk) 01:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Considering that art game was split form this article, I think we should shift out all comments from this talk page prior to Masem's comment of 12 July 2011. And We should import them into the art game article. All of the talk page contents prior to 12 July 2011 refer to the topic of art games. I've boldly shifted this material now, but feel free to revert and we can discuss it if anyone disagrees. - Thibbs ( talk) 14:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Can we change the title "Video games as art" to either Video games as works of art or Video games as an art form? This is to avoid confusion with the too similar Video game art and Art game. I tried to clarify the context for each article with the Template:Art and video games. But watching lists like Category:Art genres, it's clear that the titles are not descriptive enough to tell the difference from the title alone. Diego ( talk) 02:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm starting this thread to serve as a repository for games that have been listed in the list of art games despite the fact that the sources (if any are presented) do not describe them as "art games". The games listed here should be reviewed and potentially added to the list of games demonstrating video games to be art within this article. So without further ado here are the games. Anyone should feel free to add to this list. - Thibbs ( talk) 15:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC) (Added 2 entries 12:30, 28 April 2013 (UTC); Added 1 entry 16:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC))
"Alex Kierkegaard" is an inflammatory internet-blogger responsible for such well thought-out criticisms, such as: "Listen to me carefully now, you little abortions of fagots: 'art games' has never been and never will be a valid category!" (I can't even link to his site because it's on the spam blacklist.) I personally don't think he should be cited as a legitimate critic of the form, his over-reliance on profanity and false equivalencies to the overall "rant" stylings of his work come off as incensed ramblings, not genuine, reliable criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.232.87 ( talk) 03:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
That the sentence in the lead begins with "Even" suggests that it's a fringe theory, an edge case. If you do not have any other sources for this other than Kierkegaard, then the phrase "some critics" is misleading. All you're left with is, this internet self published guy believes that art games are not art. - hahnch e n 15:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
It was suggested above that Alex Kierkegaard would not pass the requirements of WP:VG/RS. While probably true, this is a red herring because WP:VG/RS is only a general guideline specifically with regard to factual claims. As WP:RSOPINION makes clear, opinion material like that used here is reliable as to the author's opinion. And there's no question that "even art games are not art" is an opinion and not a factual claim. So the Kierkegaard source is not properly assailable via WP:RS. We've seen the evocation of WP:N as well, but notability is really a limitation on articles and not sources. In general I think it's obvious that the more renown and clout that the cited opinion-giver has, the better the coverage and in this sense Kierkegaard, though probably adequate, is not an ideal source at all. I've suggested that replacing the source with a superior one would be perfectly acceptable, though, and I did mean that honestly.
So in thinking the issue over carefully I've had something of a change of heart on the Kierkegaard source and it has to do with something we haven't discussed yet - the issue of how the source is used here. The basic claim in our article is "Art games are challenged as works of art by critics." If we look at the Kierkegaard source, we see a lengthy and vigorous argument that challenges the idea that art games are art. In this sense the basic view is bolstered, but not necessarily the specific claim. The Kierkegaard book is a single person's opinion. It is an opinion that is shared by a significant minority, however Kierkegaard makes no mention of this minority. His book is simply an example of one instance of the minority opinion. A proper source in this context must at least make reference to the basic claim that "Art games are challenged as works of art by critics" where "critics" is used in the plural. To my memory the Kierkegaard source does not cover any other critics that share his view.
So I think this leads us to an obvious solution. The Felan Parker article makes the direct claim that "Some critics and commentators have questioned the status of artgames as games due to their short duration and limited interactivity, thus questioning their claim to art and legitimacy". Here the exact claim from our article is backed up. Parker speaks of critics and commentators and in the plural and with "thus questioning their claim to art" he addresses the fact that they challenge the art status of art games. Parker even cites Kierkegaard's essay as an example. I'd stress that removing the Kierkegaard article for reasons related to censorship of his unpleasant ideas would be unacceptable. The mere fact that he is controversial and that multiple editors have arrived here with the express purpose of removing this source and without making any fuss about the other few mediocre sources used should not have any impact on this question. It is acceptable to cite him for his opinion, but in this case his book doesn't make claims that are expansive enough for our purposes and Parker's does. Since there seems to be broad agreement that the Parker article is reliable and since I believe it more closely bolsters the exact claim made, I think it would make sense to swap out the Kierkegaard article for the Parker article. Does this sound like a good idea? - Thibbs ( talk) 13:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Moot commentary. As explained above, the proposed solution wouldn't even use the Kierkegaard source.
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There is nothing strawman-like about bringing up the dangers of censorship given the clear fact that the writer in question is controversial and that this is the only source questioned when there are clearly sources of equal or less quality used in this very article. It might be a strange coincidence, and I'll take you at your word that it's just a coincidence in your case, hahnchen, but it's worth keeping in mind for anyone who comes to this discussion that there may be ulterior motives for some of those seeking to silence this one view and that censorship is something Wikipedia normally eschews. In other words the censorship/controversy issue should be irrelevant. That's my only point.
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As for Kierkegaard's level of coverage, it's pathetic - there's a fine line between my level of coverage and his, but a gulf between that and a noteworthy opinion.
We've already agreed that Kierkegaard is not to be used as a source here. I'm just restating my arguments so I can use it as an anchor for any future discussions. I don't want to go through this again. - hahnch e n 20:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC) (Shifted from above to keep the academic discussion of Kierkegaard separate from actual issues of article content. - Thibbs ( talk) 22:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC))
( edit conflict)::I don't think I'm ignoring anything. "Pathetic" is a pretty subjective term. We both agree that there are more established, renowned, and authoritative writers than this guy. It would be impossible to argue otherwise. We both disagree, however, on whether the level of third-party coverage he's received is sufficient to allow him to be cited in Wikipedia for his opinion on games. Essentially we have different tolerance levels for the acclaim of the source. That doesn't mean that I think Wikipedia should be made up entirely of sources of similar quality to Kierkegaard, but I think it allows occasional citation to minor-league sources that have been cited by the RSes - especially when the topic they are writing on is intimately connected to the topic of the Wikipedia article. Regarding the edits to the "art game" article, I think there may be room for compromise there as well, but I don't think it's appropriate to go on a Kierkegaard-censoring spree when there is clear disagreement with your views on the usability of the guy as a source. - Thibbs ( talk) 17:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I've been told that my reasoning as to why we shouldn't use YouTube links is flawed because, apparently, YouTube videos can offer more information about a subject in 10 seconds by a random guy (whose motives are entertain, not to educate) than a well-formated article written by someone who actually understands video games as "art".
"PBS Idea Channel is a YouTube video blog featuring weekly discussions about various aspects of popular culture, technology and digital art", according to Your Meme. By this logic, we can also refer to pop-science YouTube videos for information when writing hardcore science articles. The show doesn't even focus on video games. It's not reliable.
Stop posting hipster stuff, it rots people's brains.
I'm going to remove them until the end of time. Don't try to stop me. I will take this to Wikipedia's high court if I have to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.127.22.124 ( talk) 11:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
It is effectively gaming's "The Road". why its not here is beyond me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.45.51.104 ( talk) 02:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
The Last of Us his is disputed as an example, at least the "a masterful marriage of storytelling and game design" part. See http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=525. 81.234.243.119 ( talk) 23:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I think Silent Hill 2 would be a worthy addition to this list. It generated a good deal of discussion when it was released, and even today it seems to get mentioned in the videogames-as-art discussions. I've collect some links: [1], [2], [3], though it would be nice to see something other than a video game journalist commenting on it. If anybody has any objects, please speak your mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C:5780:144:BCB7:3D88:41A6:EA98 ( talk) 04:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I think Braid should be added to the List of artistic video games section:
As it is such a notable game, I feel someone casually browsing this article should see this game listed without having to open the longer list of arthouse games.
Hgby ( talk) 13:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd love to see Machinarium added to the list of games - it's a small, accessible game with hand-drawn art, an incredible soundtrack, and wonderful, subtly revealed story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.34.148 ( talk • contribs)
I think Dishonored should be on the list. It has one of the most immersive environment. Even the paintings appearing on the walls are real. The developers put a lot of work into the game. The aesthetics really makes a distinction from other contemporary games. The dark and gloomy city got some of the best aesthetics, from the big iron bars covering some big gateways that we cannot interact with, big luxurious artwork in buildings, Notes and dairies left by those now dead, immersive back story, Books which have their own fiction to moody music that sure makes us remember that we are really in the game.
Here are the few quotes and sources i am able to find.
"unifying vision and design that stands apart from its contemporaries as something different" [dishonored 1]
"a triumph for the medium ... that sets the benchmark for visuals, story, and character performance" [dishonored 2]
"The steampunk-inspired technology is fascinating, and the art direction superbly establishes a distinct visual style to accompany the dark and disturbing lore lurking behind the city. I hope this isn’t the last time I play a game set in Dunwall" [dishonored 3]
And of course! it is inspired from both Bioshock and Half Life 2. [dishonored 4] TGageND ( talk) 12:11, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
-15:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)15:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by TGageND ( talk • contribs)
And this is a page where you can find artworks(most of them are not concept works) from Dishonored. TGageND ( talk) 16:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
This is a very useful article. I especially like section that features "Controversy." It mentions the Roger Ebert article in which he state that video games art not art. Although I noticed a typo in the section "History," the game Resident Evil is misspelled as Resident Evil Creek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.13.204.118 ( talk) 16:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
The examples section is overpopulated with examples being included on baseis which are not legitimate, this page appears to have been edited by biased individuals in order to include select titles. Jpmcruiser ( talk) 08:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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I don't get it, Grand Theft Auto V received widespread critical acclaim and there were multiple publications openly accepting and discussing it as art, why isn't it covered on the list? I mean, there's at least some consensus not just among critics but also on the public opinion that the world building in GTA counts as some form of art, correct? I don't see why it doesn't deserve to be noted for that.
As a matter of fact, does this page even require a "list of artistic video games" in the first place? The "List of arthouse video games" in the Art game page already covers that in the first place. Henriquedematos ( talk) 17:40, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
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I can't help but feel that there isn't actually much art history in this article (which is strange, because it's an article about art...). I'd love to do a major rewrite (which would take some time) looking at the various art theories (and theorists) which could be applied successfully to videogames (and of course, those theories that might suggest that videogames aren't art too).
I'd urge the long list of games to be split off into another article (or potentially just got rid of). A seminal essay written by Linda Nochlin in the 1970s called 'Why have there been no great women artists?' suggested that simply naming women artists only served to highlight the fact that there are not many considered 'great'. In the same way, simply writing a list of videogames that some people think are artistic doesn't add validity to the article's premise that videogames are art - it only serves to highlight that most people still think that videogames are not art.
In addition, many of the sources noted as suggesting that the individual games art art have not demonstrated that they know much about art as individuals (at worst some of the sources are just the creators saying that their games are artistic). This list is kind of like having a list of paintings that people think are artistic on a page called 'paintings as an art form'. It sounds absurd because it is.
Videogames are art. We don't need lists of games on a Wikipedia article to justify that. So lets use established art theorists to tell people exactly why videogames are art on this page.
CharlotteM85 ( talk) 21:02, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
This article in the London Review of Books could have a number of potential uses here. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/john-lanchester/is-it-art Rhoark ( talk) 17:47, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
While I do think the thought provoking narratives of video games are especially important, I'd love to see more about how video games are made and the process of creation. I realize that video game creation could be discussed in another wikipedia article, but I think the collaborative effort and process from start to finish would show the extreme amounts of effort put into making games that are collaborative works of art. Referencing that amount of art colleges and schools that teach video game making as an art form would be an interesting related point as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5B12:C400:A1C1:AC0:D3D1:38D5 ( talk) 04:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
I totally agree with that video games are arts, and I appreciate that Escapist editor-in-chief Greg Tito said, "Games are amazing pieces of art because they allow you to succeed or fail in goals that are separate from your own." However, I disagree with that Kojima argued that video game creation is more of a service than an artistic endeavor. I do not think video games just a service of player, it can also learn a lot from the designer's thought and artwork.
Besides, I think maybe should add more different person's opinion and argument about why video games are art or not instead of information of artistic video games. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cindy-li ( talk • contribs) 08:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
What purpose does this subsection serve apart from bloating the article? I was just reviewing the article this morning and I can't what this section adds. If we look at the first few sentences (which should be establishing what facet of the topic is to be discussed and situating this facet relative to the topic as a whole), we see:
After many years of debate, the conclusion of incorporating video games under the "Arts" category has been drawn."
As mentioned above, ..."
What follows seems to be a number of general statements about how the video game industry is large and growing larger and about the ubiquity of video game playing among youth. The next two paragraphs are primarily devoted to highlighting the works of two obscure art game developers, and the final paragraph recycles content about the Smithsonian Museum display already mentioned earlier in the article.
This subsection seems to be an attempt to provide a nice conclusion for the article as if it were a position piece instead of an encyclopedic entry, and perhaps it suggests expanding our lede, but I don't find that it adds anything of value to the article. The sources for the two obscure game devs seem reliable and could probably be merged into the List of arthouse games, but otherwise I think the whole subsection should be removed as POV-heavy and needlessly duplicative. Any objections/thoughts? - Thibbs ( talk) 13:10, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Whereas nearly all art games are independently designed, the typical discussion of non-artgame games as art revolves around traditional triple-A games in relation to their artistic content. As such I was just about to shift the indie flag from this article to the "art game" article, but I'd like to get some feedback first. I've already added the indie flag to "art game", but is it a good idea to remove the indie flag from this article? - Thibbs ( talk) 18:15, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Owlboy, A Boy and his Blob and Dragon Quest are in my opinion pieces of art Would you guys think so?
I added a few games to the list. If you think they are lacking of the necessary reference sources, please, don't remove them, but let me add the sources. I'm the administrator of a project devoted to video games as a form of contemporary art. I manage several account on Steam, Facebook and Twitter. It's called: Video Games & Art. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I removed Steam links, sorry. And added reference sources to witness the art quality of the games.
Obviously it's difficult to define what is a art game; in my web pages i talk about this issue. If you are interested, search for Video Games & Art on Steam, Facebook, Twitter. I'm not a beginner, i read so many academic book about the argument. I practice art (music, cinema, etc.) and science (physics) since i were young.
I think that Doom is not an art game, and i think that there are a few games in the list that are not artistic. Just my opinion!
Could i insert links to facebook pages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 04:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Oh i forgot! My group comes in two version, italian and international, you have to search for Video Games & Art International on Steam. Bye — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 04:36, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
You can find my original thoughts about art and videogames here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/VgArtInt/discussions/0/ I think my articles could interest you! Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:12, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Am i allowed to open a similar page in italian language? A sort of translation of this page. Lucafg74 ( talk) 20:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Do you think i should add Firewatch by Camposanto? Lucafg74 ( talk) 23:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
These games I most defiantly would consider art look up artwork for both of these game and tell me you would not want to these in a museum.
I just removed Metal Gear from the list because when I read over the source that was listed I could find no mention of it being considered as a work of art. There is a lot of discussion covering its design elements that elevate it to the status of "modern game", but that's not what this list is intended to collate. I just looked at the sources for Deus-Ex as well and the closest we come is an offhand question at the start of the first source: "Why is this talked about like it's the Mona Lisa of game design?" The rest of the 4-page review is a description of enemy AI and the humorous dialog options that the game has. At no point does it corroborate the claim that the game is a work of art. The second source for Deus Ex at least covers the topic of "works of art", but it twice describes the game as falling short in that area: "...some rough edges restrain the game from becoming an irrefutable work of art." and "This is my only gripe about the game; an excellent plot could have easily become a work of art had it been produced in Japan." Given the balance of the sources, I don't think there is enough support as required by WP:V to support the claim that it is considered to be a work of art so I will remove it as well. I have no prejudice against restoring these games to the list, but it's a requirement that the sources in fact describe the game as a work of art or that the games are at least considered by art-related sources (e.g. the Museum of Modern Art, etc.) to be works of art. I think the list needs to be weeded through. - Thibbs ( talk) 14:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Among mainstream titles, Deus Ex Human Revolution has interesting artistic features concerning storytelling, writing and aesthetics. A good compromise of mass entertainment product and art, a game for mature audience. You could be interested in my analisys: https://vgartsite.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/deus-ex-human-revolution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Criteria used by Wikipedia are good, they are the same used in science literature or in academies and university. But such criteria fails when applied to videogames and to mainstream magazines. The latters are not reliable sources. I cannot estabilsh myself as recognized expert, but even many mainstream critics are not experts. Simply because actually there is no foundation for expertise in videogames art field!! :-) I can only give some info about my expertise and declare my criteria in my website. Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Now i'll give you a pragmatic proof of my expertise: have you played The Town of Light? Well, it is a work of art, but completely ignored by mainstream critics! You can read my analisys in my website. I cannot state my expertise, i let the others do it. I'm writing since 2015 (on Steam) innovative critical concepts about videogames art; and i have anticipated few courageous mainstream critics that only now are replaying my concepts! Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Deus Ex has some artistic features, but it's very difficult TODAY to find a reliable source underlying such features, because TODAY mainstream critics are used to approach videogames as electronic toys and virtual challenges, expecially triple A mainstream titles like Deus Ex. No, i'm not forcing to put it in the list, its artistic value is not so evident and strong because of the compromise with mass entertainment purposes. Lucafg74 ( talk) 01:23, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm referring to Deus Ex Human Revolution. And i underlined TODAY because i think that in the next future videogames will have a better artistic and academic foundation. Well, now changing subject, i think there are a few titles that should not be in the list. I'm just trying to help with some suggestions, you are free to agree or not. Silent Hill 2, at least it would need some reliable sources Music VR, not suitable, no sources Yume Nikki, not suitable, no sources The Endless Forest could be ok, but it needs reliable sources Mother 3, not suitable Dwarf Fortress, not suitable Amnesia, not suitable Papers, Please, not suitable Hyper Light Drifter, not suitable Hollow Knight, not suitable Doom, not suitable Grand Theft Auto V, not suitable Lucafg74 ( talk) 03:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, as said we have to respect wikipedia criteria. But before erasing any entry, we have to allow a research for reliable sources sustaining the art of such titles. Yes, such research should be made before any insertion in the list, but first of all we have to estabilish the criteria for the reliable sources. Just now you are claiming for reliable sources explicictly underlining artistic features of the game. But what words or phrases are to be accepted?? Not all critics are willing to use words like "it's an artwork", they sound uncritical!! E.g. in my articles i'm not used to explicit and measure how many art there is in a game! Most of critics tend to underline some features. As said many critics inappropriately uses "work of art". E.g. if a game has a certain visual beauty, they say that's a piece of art! Masem doesn't agree, and i think he is right! Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Could we use BAFTA AWARDS as reliable sources?v Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Luckily Firewatch, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, and What Remains of Edith Finch are all games whose artistic value is recently sustained by many reliable sources. If we decide to restrain reliable sources criteria, i'm able to find reliable sources underlining explicitly their art with clear words. Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:10, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Oh no, forget the BAFTA. It's impossible to distinguish artistic value of the several categories. BAFTA have a good sense for art, but artistic games are rewarded also in not-artistic categories; there is only one explicit artistic category, we could only refer to it. Today there is not an explicit artistic prize in videogames industry! Mass entertainment rules! Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Masem: sorry for not being clearer in discussing how the contents of this page need to be rewritten. Some examples of ad-sounding include the blurbs for Contrast, Brothers, Vanishing of Ethan Carter, and Virginia. Perhaps a better tag would have been the encyclopedic tone rewrite, as there are also issues with formatting (Papo & Yo, Cat Lady, Contrast, and Unfinished Swan), general consistency (should blurbs be basic summaries of the game, references to their reviews, characterizations of their nature as art games, or some combo? whichever the case, I believe it should be consistent across each/most entries), and citations (I would argue that each entry should feature a reference to a third-party specifically characterizing the given game as an art game to maintain objectivity and precision for the list). What do you think? -- Paradoxasauruser ( talk) 13:45, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Some of the reliable sources in the list are not so reliable when talking about art. Mainstream magazines are centered around market needs, are strongly influenced by big companies; they make abuse of term "art". If you want to talk about art you have to refer to estabilished forms of art: cinema and animation, painting or drawing, music, literature, drama, etc. etc. And also to estabilished and recognized artworks: e.g. Citizen Kane by Welles, Othello by Shakespeare, Guernica by Picasso, Rachmaninoff's Piano concerto n. 3, etc. etc. There are not estabilished artistic criteria for videogames. Mainstream magazine claim for art even when there is no art! Only a comparative analisys referring to recognized forms of art could be helpful to estabilish shared artistic criteria. You can identify three main features that characterize art: aesthetics, contents and storytelling. Storytelling has to be intended in its wider meaning: artworks must have something to express, to transmit, to tell; also more abstract forms of art, such as music, implement a sort of implicit and abstract storytelling. Just as other recognized artworks, an artistic game has to ensure a unique, coherent and holistic experience where contents, interactivity, gameplay, aesthetics, storytelling, etc., they must intersect inextricably so that the emerging result is greater than the sum of the parts. Masterpieces can be recognized for innovation and experimentation opening new frontiers. I wrote some articles about art and videogames you could find interesting: https://vgartsite.wordpress.com/artgames/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC) Lucafg74 ( talk) 21:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Mainstream magazines: Kotaku, Multiplayer, Polygon, Gamespot, IGN, Everyeye, etc. etc. Videogames have not a reliable academic and art critic foundation yet. You can find a few good critics with a certain sensibility for art, and so many critics ignorant of art approaching videogames as electronic toys and virtual challenges. Mainstream magazines are strongly influenced by big companies interests. And big companies generally, with few exceptions, are not searching for art in videogames, but only for low or mediun quality mass entertainment. Even for movies is not so different, but Cinema has a well estabilished academic and artistic foundation, popular recognition of Cinema as seventh art is a fact; critics and people can easily distinguish a low quality mass entertainment movie production from an authorial artistic movie production; not the same for videogames. So, today ordinary crtics are generally ignorant of art and cannot distinguish a low quality mass entertainment product from an artistic product. They often look only at technical skills, visual beauty and mainly at challenges. Mainstream critics invented the derogatory term Walking Simulator, because unable to recognize the artistical skills of games as Dear Esther, Gone Home, Firewatch, The Path, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, What Remains of Edith Finch, etc. They are not ready for art in videogames yet. Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
As said, there are few good critics with a certain sensibility for art even in mainstream magazines. We are witnessing an artistic evolution of videogames, so critics are adjusting their criteria. It's a dynamical process. In the future we'll have more an more reliable sources and videogames will have the same academic and artistic foundation as cinema. I'm saying that recognition of art in videogames has not started from mainstream critics. And yet TODAY, mainstream critics tend to understimate art in videogames. Just look at metacritic or others reviews collectors: most of artistic games have ratings lower than low quality mass entertainment titles. It's as Fast & Fuorios had a bigger rating of 400 Blows by Truffaut; that's impossible in any serious pubblication about cinema.... Lucafg74 ( talk) 01:46, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
And no... obviously i'm not saying to remove titles in the list whose art is sustained by mainstream magazines. As said there is an evolving process and a few critics are more sensible to art even in such magazines. Even art is going to have a market in videogames because of the evolution of audience. Children growth while playing Pac Man and Space Invaders are now adult and are demanding for more mature games able to give deep sensations as best movies. For now referring to mainstream magazines considered reliable sources is the only criterion adopted by wikipedia, so we have to respect it. I'm going to change my reference to multiplayer.it in The Cat Lady edit, but in my country it is considered a reliable source. And i'm going to search for reliable sources for The Town of Light; i think i will not find them for now; but i'm sure in the next future many critics will change their minds about such title. Lucafg74 ( talk) 02:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
In the end i found the today only one reliable source claiming explicitly for the art of The Town of Light!! That's the proof that artistic evolution of videogames market is running fast! Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't think Grand theft auto 5 should be on this list it feels so out of place compared to the others
I don't think Resident Evil 7 is a proper entry Lucafg74 ( talk) 23:13, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
The same criterion applies to Doom, i don't think it is a work of art; otherwise also Cannibal Holocaust (a movie) is art! Lucafg74 ( talk) 17:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
There are no intentions of doing art in Doom! Lucafg74 ( talk) 17:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Techinical improvementa are very important, but they are not art for themselves. The first movies that implemented 3D or the cinemascope or audiotrack or high tech cameras etc. are very important movies, but non necessarily work of art. Lucafg74 ( talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Other games before Doom implemented FPS and 3D graphic engines, e.g. Maze 3D, Wolfstein 3D; Doom added only extreme violence and a better engine. Doom consciously stimulates the player's lower instincts. It's pure commercial speculation not aimed to deep content, narrative, design or aesthetic research. You have only to fight your way through hordes of invading demons. Its legacy is a collection of equally violent games aimed to trivial entertainment. You can think that's good, a great achievement for the entertainment industry, but it's not art! Lucafg74 ( talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I have not expressed my feelings, but a deep critical analisys. I disagree with mainstream critics claiming that Doom is a piece of art. There are not estabilished criteria for art in videogames. Many mainstream critics are ignorant about art, they judge videogames only for mass entertainment purposes. Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Hey other guys, if modern art is art, how is doom not art compared to a walking simulator game? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolven1 ( talk • contribs) 18:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Given several recent additions or attempts at additions, or removals, I wonder if we need to have a strong criteria for inclusion on this list. Maybe even to the point where an entry needs to be proposed with supporting sources and gain consensus to include?
The reason I say this is that it is relatively easy for many games to search on the game name and "work of art" and find a source even from a reliable one. That really doesn't prove a game has industry-wide recognition of being a work of art, and this list should be much more precise that a game really is broadly considered a work of art, rather than piece-parting the comments from individuals.
Something like the MOMA list would be a sign that shows this industry recognizition and there might be other factors too. But there can be other games that don't have that recognition yet. Take an example of That Dragon, Cancer. Google searching on the name and "work of art" gives a good number of RS hits, including outside the gaming sphere, so I would argue this has industry-wide recognizition, but I think we should have a process to review an entry, gain consensus, and archive that on this talk page so there's no question why something was added - and for the same reason why something was not. -- MASEM ( t) 16:27, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
MOMA selected a few videogames for their design, not for art intended as sublime expression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzGjO5aHShQ Lucafg74 ( talk) 02:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, as said we have to respect wikipedia criteria. But before erasing any entry, we have to allow a research for reliable sources sustaining the art of such titles. Yes, such research should be made before any insertion in the list, but first of all we have to estabilish the criteria for the reliable sources. Just now you are claiming for reliable sources explicictly underlining artistic features of the game. But what words or phrases are to be accepted?? Not all critics are willing to use words like "it's an artwork", they sound uncritical!! E.g. in my articles i'm not used to explicit and measure how many art there is in a game! Most of critics tend to underline some features. As said many critics inappropriately uses "work of art". E.g. if a game has a certain visual beauty, they say that's a piece of art! Masem doesn't agree, and i think he is right! Lucafg74 (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Could we use BAFTA AWARDS as reliable sources? Lucafg74 (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
We could restrain reliable sources to a few critics specialized in discovering artistic side of videogames. That's what happens in cinema and in other estabilished forms of art. Reliable sources are not generical magazines, but specifical critics with high expertise in art. What do you think? Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Recently this list has gained more attention even thanks to my promotion on my social channels (steam, facebook, twitter, website). I have an audience of more than 3500 people sensible to videogames art. So i'm not surprised that more and more people are going to add new entries! :-) We have to estabilish clear, shared but tight "scientific" criteria for the list. Referring to specific art critics and experts is what happens in other estabilished forms of art as Cinema. We should select specific art critics writing for reliable sources. Lucafg74 ( talk) 14:03, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Science is founded upon continuosly empirical proofing by scientific community. I'm a physics teacher, i know how science works. Art critic has no empirical proofing foundation, can only be founded around critical discussions among academic community. Discussions concerning comparative analisys with estabilished forms of art and historical experience in the field of art critic. That's all. Videogames as art TODAY has no academic foundation, there is no community of experts or critics specialized in videogames art. For now this list has to be founded upon shared criteria stated by wikipedia community. We could discuss about reliability of the sources. That's my intention. As said, i don't think mainstream magazines centered around needs of mass entertainment market and industry are ALWAYS reliable sources. So we could identify a few critics specialised in reviewing artistic games. Lucafg74 ( talk) 20:40, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
It's wrong to give up the list. We are pioneers of the new wind of art in videogames. Obviously when you are starting something from scratch, without external references, it is always not easy. We have not to give up. We could try to involve other experts, other reliable and recognized critics, to found a new community of videogames art experts on wikipedia Lucafg74 ( talk) 20:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Ok, i agree to move the list to a page of its own. Lucafg74 ( talk) 21:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I would recommend either deleting the "List of artistic video games", or moving it to a separate page. It's clearly promotional for some of these games. I'm not sure how it differs from Art_game#List_of_arthouse_games. Power~enwiki ( talk) 20:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, let's move the list to a separate page. But then we have to define tight "scientific" shared criteria and reliable sources. Lucafg74 ( talk) 21:19, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Masem for shrinking the list, but TODAY videogames masterpieces according to mainstream critics are NOT necessarily artistic titles! TODAY mainstream critics put in poleposition titles oriented to mass entertainment not necessarily artistic. See reviews aggregators as Metacritic or GameRanking. We should define very narrow criteria on our own, using comparative analisys with other forms of art and making a comparison with other specialised critics. We are founders, pioneers, we have to create a community of videogames art critics from scratch. We have to involve the most sensible critics and academics. Wikipedia could be a good aggregator! At first we have to start discussions about art criteria! Lucafg74 ( talk) 00:04, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
We will found Les Cahiers des Jeux Videos (a pun for Les Cahiers du Cinema founded by Truffaut) :-) Lucafg74 ( talk) 00:20, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Done. -
Thibbs (
talk)
01:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
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There were many historical facts on the struggles through which games were accepted as art in legal terms. However, there should be more support from critics and philosophy from professionals that are familiar with the field. The article focused more on criticism and interpretations that support the idea that games are not art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.41.197.223 ( talk) 19:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
There is now quite a lot of philosophy (i.e. books and peer-reviewed philosophical journal articles) written on this topic. I have added some references and could add more references and actual theoretical details if needed.-- Hardtorememberusername123 ( talk) 01:07, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
The change in location is fine, though the philosophical literature has its origins in the mid 2000s. Your edit introduced a number of inaccuracies (e.g. Tavinor and Robson's book is an edited collection of the work of other philosophers). This material does not belong in theory of legitimation because that section makes an assumption that arguing for the art status of video games amounts to a legitimizing process, which doesn't seem to be an idea common in the philosophical literature. I will add to the paragraph to give a better impression on the work that has been done. I wonder if a new section on academic work on the issue is warranted. Hardtorememberusername123 ( talk) 23:07, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Starting with the beginning, I think it would be in everyone's best interest to define what an "indie game" is. Giving them a link is great, but it would be nice to just have a simple explanation afterwards. Next, during the Empathy Game section, it would be nice to quote other games that are known for dragging the player through an emotional experience, like The Static Speaks My Name or Don't Take This Risk. While reading I though your Controversy was strangely placed, that in might of been better to put the critics after or move it down to be above the critics. In the Other Notable critics some words repeat so much to the point of boredom. Last note, I believe the title should be capitalized to say "Video Games as an Art Form". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.41.197.222 ( talk) 03:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
[3] , no time at moment to work into this. -- MASEM ( t) 13:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm, that rmit.edu.au is a bit sketchy, or at least as I perceive what we take as "art game". The definition used there is For the purposes of this paper, I apply the term “art game” to describe an interactive work, usually humorous, by a visual artist that does one or more of the following: challenges cultural stereotypes, offers meaningful social or historical critique, or tells a story in a novel manner. Is that what everyone else has in mind? or can we confirm this? To me, this definition, while different from "video games as art", does overlap a lot to make the distinction hard, given that "art game" comes from the game developer's intention, while "video games as art" comes from the perception of the released product. -- MASEM ( t) 01:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
[15] came up yesterday. -- MASEM ( t) 16:23, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Please provide your feedback at Talk:Video_game_art#Merge.3F Shawnc ( talk) 01:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Considering that art game was split form this article, I think we should shift out all comments from this talk page prior to Masem's comment of 12 July 2011. And We should import them into the art game article. All of the talk page contents prior to 12 July 2011 refer to the topic of art games. I've boldly shifted this material now, but feel free to revert and we can discuss it if anyone disagrees. - Thibbs ( talk) 14:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Can we change the title "Video games as art" to either Video games as works of art or Video games as an art form? This is to avoid confusion with the too similar Video game art and Art game. I tried to clarify the context for each article with the Template:Art and video games. But watching lists like Category:Art genres, it's clear that the titles are not descriptive enough to tell the difference from the title alone. Diego ( talk) 02:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm starting this thread to serve as a repository for games that have been listed in the list of art games despite the fact that the sources (if any are presented) do not describe them as "art games". The games listed here should be reviewed and potentially added to the list of games demonstrating video games to be art within this article. So without further ado here are the games. Anyone should feel free to add to this list. - Thibbs ( talk) 15:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC) (Added 2 entries 12:30, 28 April 2013 (UTC); Added 1 entry 16:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC))
"Alex Kierkegaard" is an inflammatory internet-blogger responsible for such well thought-out criticisms, such as: "Listen to me carefully now, you little abortions of fagots: 'art games' has never been and never will be a valid category!" (I can't even link to his site because it's on the spam blacklist.) I personally don't think he should be cited as a legitimate critic of the form, his over-reliance on profanity and false equivalencies to the overall "rant" stylings of his work come off as incensed ramblings, not genuine, reliable criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.232.87 ( talk) 03:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
That the sentence in the lead begins with "Even" suggests that it's a fringe theory, an edge case. If you do not have any other sources for this other than Kierkegaard, then the phrase "some critics" is misleading. All you're left with is, this internet self published guy believes that art games are not art. - hahnch e n 15:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
It was suggested above that Alex Kierkegaard would not pass the requirements of WP:VG/RS. While probably true, this is a red herring because WP:VG/RS is only a general guideline specifically with regard to factual claims. As WP:RSOPINION makes clear, opinion material like that used here is reliable as to the author's opinion. And there's no question that "even art games are not art" is an opinion and not a factual claim. So the Kierkegaard source is not properly assailable via WP:RS. We've seen the evocation of WP:N as well, but notability is really a limitation on articles and not sources. In general I think it's obvious that the more renown and clout that the cited opinion-giver has, the better the coverage and in this sense Kierkegaard, though probably adequate, is not an ideal source at all. I've suggested that replacing the source with a superior one would be perfectly acceptable, though, and I did mean that honestly.
So in thinking the issue over carefully I've had something of a change of heart on the Kierkegaard source and it has to do with something we haven't discussed yet - the issue of how the source is used here. The basic claim in our article is "Art games are challenged as works of art by critics." If we look at the Kierkegaard source, we see a lengthy and vigorous argument that challenges the idea that art games are art. In this sense the basic view is bolstered, but not necessarily the specific claim. The Kierkegaard book is a single person's opinion. It is an opinion that is shared by a significant minority, however Kierkegaard makes no mention of this minority. His book is simply an example of one instance of the minority opinion. A proper source in this context must at least make reference to the basic claim that "Art games are challenged as works of art by critics" where "critics" is used in the plural. To my memory the Kierkegaard source does not cover any other critics that share his view.
So I think this leads us to an obvious solution. The Felan Parker article makes the direct claim that "Some critics and commentators have questioned the status of artgames as games due to their short duration and limited interactivity, thus questioning their claim to art and legitimacy". Here the exact claim from our article is backed up. Parker speaks of critics and commentators and in the plural and with "thus questioning their claim to art" he addresses the fact that they challenge the art status of art games. Parker even cites Kierkegaard's essay as an example. I'd stress that removing the Kierkegaard article for reasons related to censorship of his unpleasant ideas would be unacceptable. The mere fact that he is controversial and that multiple editors have arrived here with the express purpose of removing this source and without making any fuss about the other few mediocre sources used should not have any impact on this question. It is acceptable to cite him for his opinion, but in this case his book doesn't make claims that are expansive enough for our purposes and Parker's does. Since there seems to be broad agreement that the Parker article is reliable and since I believe it more closely bolsters the exact claim made, I think it would make sense to swap out the Kierkegaard article for the Parker article. Does this sound like a good idea? - Thibbs ( talk) 13:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Moot commentary. As explained above, the proposed solution wouldn't even use the Kierkegaard source.
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There is nothing strawman-like about bringing up the dangers of censorship given the clear fact that the writer in question is controversial and that this is the only source questioned when there are clearly sources of equal or less quality used in this very article. It might be a strange coincidence, and I'll take you at your word that it's just a coincidence in your case, hahnchen, but it's worth keeping in mind for anyone who comes to this discussion that there may be ulterior motives for some of those seeking to silence this one view and that censorship is something Wikipedia normally eschews. In other words the censorship/controversy issue should be irrelevant. That's my only point.
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As for Kierkegaard's level of coverage, it's pathetic - there's a fine line between my level of coverage and his, but a gulf between that and a noteworthy opinion.
We've already agreed that Kierkegaard is not to be used as a source here. I'm just restating my arguments so I can use it as an anchor for any future discussions. I don't want to go through this again. - hahnch e n 20:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC) (Shifted from above to keep the academic discussion of Kierkegaard separate from actual issues of article content. - Thibbs ( talk) 22:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC))
( edit conflict)::I don't think I'm ignoring anything. "Pathetic" is a pretty subjective term. We both agree that there are more established, renowned, and authoritative writers than this guy. It would be impossible to argue otherwise. We both disagree, however, on whether the level of third-party coverage he's received is sufficient to allow him to be cited in Wikipedia for his opinion on games. Essentially we have different tolerance levels for the acclaim of the source. That doesn't mean that I think Wikipedia should be made up entirely of sources of similar quality to Kierkegaard, but I think it allows occasional citation to minor-league sources that have been cited by the RSes - especially when the topic they are writing on is intimately connected to the topic of the Wikipedia article. Regarding the edits to the "art game" article, I think there may be room for compromise there as well, but I don't think it's appropriate to go on a Kierkegaard-censoring spree when there is clear disagreement with your views on the usability of the guy as a source. - Thibbs ( talk) 17:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I've been told that my reasoning as to why we shouldn't use YouTube links is flawed because, apparently, YouTube videos can offer more information about a subject in 10 seconds by a random guy (whose motives are entertain, not to educate) than a well-formated article written by someone who actually understands video games as "art".
"PBS Idea Channel is a YouTube video blog featuring weekly discussions about various aspects of popular culture, technology and digital art", according to Your Meme. By this logic, we can also refer to pop-science YouTube videos for information when writing hardcore science articles. The show doesn't even focus on video games. It's not reliable.
Stop posting hipster stuff, it rots people's brains.
I'm going to remove them until the end of time. Don't try to stop me. I will take this to Wikipedia's high court if I have to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.127.22.124 ( talk) 11:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
It is effectively gaming's "The Road". why its not here is beyond me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.45.51.104 ( talk) 02:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
The Last of Us his is disputed as an example, at least the "a masterful marriage of storytelling and game design" part. See http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=525. 81.234.243.119 ( talk) 23:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I think Silent Hill 2 would be a worthy addition to this list. It generated a good deal of discussion when it was released, and even today it seems to get mentioned in the videogames-as-art discussions. I've collect some links: [1], [2], [3], though it would be nice to see something other than a video game journalist commenting on it. If anybody has any objects, please speak your mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C:5780:144:BCB7:3D88:41A6:EA98 ( talk) 04:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I think Braid should be added to the List of artistic video games section:
As it is such a notable game, I feel someone casually browsing this article should see this game listed without having to open the longer list of arthouse games.
Hgby ( talk) 13:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd love to see Machinarium added to the list of games - it's a small, accessible game with hand-drawn art, an incredible soundtrack, and wonderful, subtly revealed story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.34.148 ( talk • contribs)
I think Dishonored should be on the list. It has one of the most immersive environment. Even the paintings appearing on the walls are real. The developers put a lot of work into the game. The aesthetics really makes a distinction from other contemporary games. The dark and gloomy city got some of the best aesthetics, from the big iron bars covering some big gateways that we cannot interact with, big luxurious artwork in buildings, Notes and dairies left by those now dead, immersive back story, Books which have their own fiction to moody music that sure makes us remember that we are really in the game.
Here are the few quotes and sources i am able to find.
"unifying vision and design that stands apart from its contemporaries as something different" [dishonored 1]
"a triumph for the medium ... that sets the benchmark for visuals, story, and character performance" [dishonored 2]
"The steampunk-inspired technology is fascinating, and the art direction superbly establishes a distinct visual style to accompany the dark and disturbing lore lurking behind the city. I hope this isn’t the last time I play a game set in Dunwall" [dishonored 3]
And of course! it is inspired from both Bioshock and Half Life 2. [dishonored 4] TGageND ( talk) 12:11, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
-15:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)15:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by TGageND ( talk • contribs)
And this is a page where you can find artworks(most of them are not concept works) from Dishonored. TGageND ( talk) 16:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
This is a very useful article. I especially like section that features "Controversy." It mentions the Roger Ebert article in which he state that video games art not art. Although I noticed a typo in the section "History," the game Resident Evil is misspelled as Resident Evil Creek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.13.204.118 ( talk) 16:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
The examples section is overpopulated with examples being included on baseis which are not legitimate, this page appears to have been edited by biased individuals in order to include select titles. Jpmcruiser ( talk) 08:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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I don't get it, Grand Theft Auto V received widespread critical acclaim and there were multiple publications openly accepting and discussing it as art, why isn't it covered on the list? I mean, there's at least some consensus not just among critics but also on the public opinion that the world building in GTA counts as some form of art, correct? I don't see why it doesn't deserve to be noted for that.
As a matter of fact, does this page even require a "list of artistic video games" in the first place? The "List of arthouse video games" in the Art game page already covers that in the first place. Henriquedematos ( talk) 17:40, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
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I can't help but feel that there isn't actually much art history in this article (which is strange, because it's an article about art...). I'd love to do a major rewrite (which would take some time) looking at the various art theories (and theorists) which could be applied successfully to videogames (and of course, those theories that might suggest that videogames aren't art too).
I'd urge the long list of games to be split off into another article (or potentially just got rid of). A seminal essay written by Linda Nochlin in the 1970s called 'Why have there been no great women artists?' suggested that simply naming women artists only served to highlight the fact that there are not many considered 'great'. In the same way, simply writing a list of videogames that some people think are artistic doesn't add validity to the article's premise that videogames are art - it only serves to highlight that most people still think that videogames are not art.
In addition, many of the sources noted as suggesting that the individual games art art have not demonstrated that they know much about art as individuals (at worst some of the sources are just the creators saying that their games are artistic). This list is kind of like having a list of paintings that people think are artistic on a page called 'paintings as an art form'. It sounds absurd because it is.
Videogames are art. We don't need lists of games on a Wikipedia article to justify that. So lets use established art theorists to tell people exactly why videogames are art on this page.
CharlotteM85 ( talk) 21:02, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
This article in the London Review of Books could have a number of potential uses here. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/john-lanchester/is-it-art Rhoark ( talk) 17:47, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
While I do think the thought provoking narratives of video games are especially important, I'd love to see more about how video games are made and the process of creation. I realize that video game creation could be discussed in another wikipedia article, but I think the collaborative effort and process from start to finish would show the extreme amounts of effort put into making games that are collaborative works of art. Referencing that amount of art colleges and schools that teach video game making as an art form would be an interesting related point as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5B12:C400:A1C1:AC0:D3D1:38D5 ( talk) 04:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
I totally agree with that video games are arts, and I appreciate that Escapist editor-in-chief Greg Tito said, "Games are amazing pieces of art because they allow you to succeed or fail in goals that are separate from your own." However, I disagree with that Kojima argued that video game creation is more of a service than an artistic endeavor. I do not think video games just a service of player, it can also learn a lot from the designer's thought and artwork.
Besides, I think maybe should add more different person's opinion and argument about why video games are art or not instead of information of artistic video games. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cindy-li ( talk • contribs) 08:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
What purpose does this subsection serve apart from bloating the article? I was just reviewing the article this morning and I can't what this section adds. If we look at the first few sentences (which should be establishing what facet of the topic is to be discussed and situating this facet relative to the topic as a whole), we see:
After many years of debate, the conclusion of incorporating video games under the "Arts" category has been drawn."
As mentioned above, ..."
What follows seems to be a number of general statements about how the video game industry is large and growing larger and about the ubiquity of video game playing among youth. The next two paragraphs are primarily devoted to highlighting the works of two obscure art game developers, and the final paragraph recycles content about the Smithsonian Museum display already mentioned earlier in the article.
This subsection seems to be an attempt to provide a nice conclusion for the article as if it were a position piece instead of an encyclopedic entry, and perhaps it suggests expanding our lede, but I don't find that it adds anything of value to the article. The sources for the two obscure game devs seem reliable and could probably be merged into the List of arthouse games, but otherwise I think the whole subsection should be removed as POV-heavy and needlessly duplicative. Any objections/thoughts? - Thibbs ( talk) 13:10, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Whereas nearly all art games are independently designed, the typical discussion of non-artgame games as art revolves around traditional triple-A games in relation to their artistic content. As such I was just about to shift the indie flag from this article to the "art game" article, but I'd like to get some feedback first. I've already added the indie flag to "art game", but is it a good idea to remove the indie flag from this article? - Thibbs ( talk) 18:15, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Owlboy, A Boy and his Blob and Dragon Quest are in my opinion pieces of art Would you guys think so?
I added a few games to the list. If you think they are lacking of the necessary reference sources, please, don't remove them, but let me add the sources. I'm the administrator of a project devoted to video games as a form of contemporary art. I manage several account on Steam, Facebook and Twitter. It's called: Video Games & Art. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I removed Steam links, sorry. And added reference sources to witness the art quality of the games.
Obviously it's difficult to define what is a art game; in my web pages i talk about this issue. If you are interested, search for Video Games & Art on Steam, Facebook, Twitter. I'm not a beginner, i read so many academic book about the argument. I practice art (music, cinema, etc.) and science (physics) since i were young.
I think that Doom is not an art game, and i think that there are a few games in the list that are not artistic. Just my opinion!
Could i insert links to facebook pages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 04:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Oh i forgot! My group comes in two version, italian and international, you have to search for Video Games & Art International on Steam. Bye — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 04:36, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
You can find my original thoughts about art and videogames here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/VgArtInt/discussions/0/ I think my articles could interest you! Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:12, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Am i allowed to open a similar page in italian language? A sort of translation of this page. Lucafg74 ( talk) 20:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Do you think i should add Firewatch by Camposanto? Lucafg74 ( talk) 23:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
These games I most defiantly would consider art look up artwork for both of these game and tell me you would not want to these in a museum.
I just removed Metal Gear from the list because when I read over the source that was listed I could find no mention of it being considered as a work of art. There is a lot of discussion covering its design elements that elevate it to the status of "modern game", but that's not what this list is intended to collate. I just looked at the sources for Deus-Ex as well and the closest we come is an offhand question at the start of the first source: "Why is this talked about like it's the Mona Lisa of game design?" The rest of the 4-page review is a description of enemy AI and the humorous dialog options that the game has. At no point does it corroborate the claim that the game is a work of art. The second source for Deus Ex at least covers the topic of "works of art", but it twice describes the game as falling short in that area: "...some rough edges restrain the game from becoming an irrefutable work of art." and "This is my only gripe about the game; an excellent plot could have easily become a work of art had it been produced in Japan." Given the balance of the sources, I don't think there is enough support as required by WP:V to support the claim that it is considered to be a work of art so I will remove it as well. I have no prejudice against restoring these games to the list, but it's a requirement that the sources in fact describe the game as a work of art or that the games are at least considered by art-related sources (e.g. the Museum of Modern Art, etc.) to be works of art. I think the list needs to be weeded through. - Thibbs ( talk) 14:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Among mainstream titles, Deus Ex Human Revolution has interesting artistic features concerning storytelling, writing and aesthetics. A good compromise of mass entertainment product and art, a game for mature audience. You could be interested in my analisys: https://vgartsite.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/deus-ex-human-revolution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Criteria used by Wikipedia are good, they are the same used in science literature or in academies and university. But such criteria fails when applied to videogames and to mainstream magazines. The latters are not reliable sources. I cannot estabilsh myself as recognized expert, but even many mainstream critics are not experts. Simply because actually there is no foundation for expertise in videogames art field!! :-) I can only give some info about my expertise and declare my criteria in my website. Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Now i'll give you a pragmatic proof of my expertise: have you played The Town of Light? Well, it is a work of art, but completely ignored by mainstream critics! You can read my analisys in my website. I cannot state my expertise, i let the others do it. I'm writing since 2015 (on Steam) innovative critical concepts about videogames art; and i have anticipated few courageous mainstream critics that only now are replaying my concepts! Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Deus Ex has some artistic features, but it's very difficult TODAY to find a reliable source underlying such features, because TODAY mainstream critics are used to approach videogames as electronic toys and virtual challenges, expecially triple A mainstream titles like Deus Ex. No, i'm not forcing to put it in the list, its artistic value is not so evident and strong because of the compromise with mass entertainment purposes. Lucafg74 ( talk) 01:23, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm referring to Deus Ex Human Revolution. And i underlined TODAY because i think that in the next future videogames will have a better artistic and academic foundation. Well, now changing subject, i think there are a few titles that should not be in the list. I'm just trying to help with some suggestions, you are free to agree or not. Silent Hill 2, at least it would need some reliable sources Music VR, not suitable, no sources Yume Nikki, not suitable, no sources The Endless Forest could be ok, but it needs reliable sources Mother 3, not suitable Dwarf Fortress, not suitable Amnesia, not suitable Papers, Please, not suitable Hyper Light Drifter, not suitable Hollow Knight, not suitable Doom, not suitable Grand Theft Auto V, not suitable Lucafg74 ( talk) 03:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, as said we have to respect wikipedia criteria. But before erasing any entry, we have to allow a research for reliable sources sustaining the art of such titles. Yes, such research should be made before any insertion in the list, but first of all we have to estabilish the criteria for the reliable sources. Just now you are claiming for reliable sources explicictly underlining artistic features of the game. But what words or phrases are to be accepted?? Not all critics are willing to use words like "it's an artwork", they sound uncritical!! E.g. in my articles i'm not used to explicit and measure how many art there is in a game! Most of critics tend to underline some features. As said many critics inappropriately uses "work of art". E.g. if a game has a certain visual beauty, they say that's a piece of art! Masem doesn't agree, and i think he is right! Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Could we use BAFTA AWARDS as reliable sources?v Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Luckily Firewatch, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, and What Remains of Edith Finch are all games whose artistic value is recently sustained by many reliable sources. If we decide to restrain reliable sources criteria, i'm able to find reliable sources underlining explicitly their art with clear words. Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:10, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Oh no, forget the BAFTA. It's impossible to distinguish artistic value of the several categories. BAFTA have a good sense for art, but artistic games are rewarded also in not-artistic categories; there is only one explicit artistic category, we could only refer to it. Today there is not an explicit artistic prize in videogames industry! Mass entertainment rules! Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Masem: sorry for not being clearer in discussing how the contents of this page need to be rewritten. Some examples of ad-sounding include the blurbs for Contrast, Brothers, Vanishing of Ethan Carter, and Virginia. Perhaps a better tag would have been the encyclopedic tone rewrite, as there are also issues with formatting (Papo & Yo, Cat Lady, Contrast, and Unfinished Swan), general consistency (should blurbs be basic summaries of the game, references to their reviews, characterizations of their nature as art games, or some combo? whichever the case, I believe it should be consistent across each/most entries), and citations (I would argue that each entry should feature a reference to a third-party specifically characterizing the given game as an art game to maintain objectivity and precision for the list). What do you think? -- Paradoxasauruser ( talk) 13:45, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Some of the reliable sources in the list are not so reliable when talking about art. Mainstream magazines are centered around market needs, are strongly influenced by big companies; they make abuse of term "art". If you want to talk about art you have to refer to estabilished forms of art: cinema and animation, painting or drawing, music, literature, drama, etc. etc. And also to estabilished and recognized artworks: e.g. Citizen Kane by Welles, Othello by Shakespeare, Guernica by Picasso, Rachmaninoff's Piano concerto n. 3, etc. etc. There are not estabilished artistic criteria for videogames. Mainstream magazine claim for art even when there is no art! Only a comparative analisys referring to recognized forms of art could be helpful to estabilish shared artistic criteria. You can identify three main features that characterize art: aesthetics, contents and storytelling. Storytelling has to be intended in its wider meaning: artworks must have something to express, to transmit, to tell; also more abstract forms of art, such as music, implement a sort of implicit and abstract storytelling. Just as other recognized artworks, an artistic game has to ensure a unique, coherent and holistic experience where contents, interactivity, gameplay, aesthetics, storytelling, etc., they must intersect inextricably so that the emerging result is greater than the sum of the parts. Masterpieces can be recognized for innovation and experimentation opening new frontiers. I wrote some articles about art and videogames you could find interesting: https://vgartsite.wordpress.com/artgames/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucafg74 ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC) Lucafg74 ( talk) 21:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Mainstream magazines: Kotaku, Multiplayer, Polygon, Gamespot, IGN, Everyeye, etc. etc. Videogames have not a reliable academic and art critic foundation yet. You can find a few good critics with a certain sensibility for art, and so many critics ignorant of art approaching videogames as electronic toys and virtual challenges. Mainstream magazines are strongly influenced by big companies interests. And big companies generally, with few exceptions, are not searching for art in videogames, but only for low or mediun quality mass entertainment. Even for movies is not so different, but Cinema has a well estabilished academic and artistic foundation, popular recognition of Cinema as seventh art is a fact; critics and people can easily distinguish a low quality mass entertainment movie production from an authorial artistic movie production; not the same for videogames. So, today ordinary crtics are generally ignorant of art and cannot distinguish a low quality mass entertainment product from an artistic product. They often look only at technical skills, visual beauty and mainly at challenges. Mainstream critics invented the derogatory term Walking Simulator, because unable to recognize the artistical skills of games as Dear Esther, Gone Home, Firewatch, The Path, Beyond Eyes, The Unfinished Swan, What Remains of Edith Finch, etc. They are not ready for art in videogames yet. Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
As said, there are few good critics with a certain sensibility for art even in mainstream magazines. We are witnessing an artistic evolution of videogames, so critics are adjusting their criteria. It's a dynamical process. In the future we'll have more an more reliable sources and videogames will have the same academic and artistic foundation as cinema. I'm saying that recognition of art in videogames has not started from mainstream critics. And yet TODAY, mainstream critics tend to understimate art in videogames. Just look at metacritic or others reviews collectors: most of artistic games have ratings lower than low quality mass entertainment titles. It's as Fast & Fuorios had a bigger rating of 400 Blows by Truffaut; that's impossible in any serious pubblication about cinema.... Lucafg74 ( talk) 01:46, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
And no... obviously i'm not saying to remove titles in the list whose art is sustained by mainstream magazines. As said there is an evolving process and a few critics are more sensible to art even in such magazines. Even art is going to have a market in videogames because of the evolution of audience. Children growth while playing Pac Man and Space Invaders are now adult and are demanding for more mature games able to give deep sensations as best movies. For now referring to mainstream magazines considered reliable sources is the only criterion adopted by wikipedia, so we have to respect it. I'm going to change my reference to multiplayer.it in The Cat Lady edit, but in my country it is considered a reliable source. And i'm going to search for reliable sources for The Town of Light; i think i will not find them for now; but i'm sure in the next future many critics will change their minds about such title. Lucafg74 ( talk) 02:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
In the end i found the today only one reliable source claiming explicitly for the art of The Town of Light!! That's the proof that artistic evolution of videogames market is running fast! Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't think Grand theft auto 5 should be on this list it feels so out of place compared to the others
I don't think Resident Evil 7 is a proper entry Lucafg74 ( talk) 23:13, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
The same criterion applies to Doom, i don't think it is a work of art; otherwise also Cannibal Holocaust (a movie) is art! Lucafg74 ( talk) 17:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
There are no intentions of doing art in Doom! Lucafg74 ( talk) 17:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Techinical improvementa are very important, but they are not art for themselves. The first movies that implemented 3D or the cinemascope or audiotrack or high tech cameras etc. are very important movies, but non necessarily work of art. Lucafg74 ( talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Other games before Doom implemented FPS and 3D graphic engines, e.g. Maze 3D, Wolfstein 3D; Doom added only extreme violence and a better engine. Doom consciously stimulates the player's lower instincts. It's pure commercial speculation not aimed to deep content, narrative, design or aesthetic research. You have only to fight your way through hordes of invading demons. Its legacy is a collection of equally violent games aimed to trivial entertainment. You can think that's good, a great achievement for the entertainment industry, but it's not art! Lucafg74 ( talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I have not expressed my feelings, but a deep critical analisys. I disagree with mainstream critics claiming that Doom is a piece of art. There are not estabilished criteria for art in videogames. Many mainstream critics are ignorant about art, they judge videogames only for mass entertainment purposes. Lucafg74 ( talk) 22:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Hey other guys, if modern art is art, how is doom not art compared to a walking simulator game? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolven1 ( talk • contribs) 18:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Given several recent additions or attempts at additions, or removals, I wonder if we need to have a strong criteria for inclusion on this list. Maybe even to the point where an entry needs to be proposed with supporting sources and gain consensus to include?
The reason I say this is that it is relatively easy for many games to search on the game name and "work of art" and find a source even from a reliable one. That really doesn't prove a game has industry-wide recognition of being a work of art, and this list should be much more precise that a game really is broadly considered a work of art, rather than piece-parting the comments from individuals.
Something like the MOMA list would be a sign that shows this industry recognizition and there might be other factors too. But there can be other games that don't have that recognition yet. Take an example of That Dragon, Cancer. Google searching on the name and "work of art" gives a good number of RS hits, including outside the gaming sphere, so I would argue this has industry-wide recognizition, but I think we should have a process to review an entry, gain consensus, and archive that on this talk page so there's no question why something was added - and for the same reason why something was not. -- MASEM ( t) 16:27, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
MOMA selected a few videogames for their design, not for art intended as sublime expression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzGjO5aHShQ Lucafg74 ( talk) 02:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, as said we have to respect wikipedia criteria. But before erasing any entry, we have to allow a research for reliable sources sustaining the art of such titles. Yes, such research should be made before any insertion in the list, but first of all we have to estabilish the criteria for the reliable sources. Just now you are claiming for reliable sources explicictly underlining artistic features of the game. But what words or phrases are to be accepted?? Not all critics are willing to use words like "it's an artwork", they sound uncritical!! E.g. in my articles i'm not used to explicit and measure how many art there is in a game! Most of critics tend to underline some features. As said many critics inappropriately uses "work of art". E.g. if a game has a certain visual beauty, they say that's a piece of art! Masem doesn't agree, and i think he is right! Lucafg74 (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Could we use BAFTA AWARDS as reliable sources? Lucafg74 (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
We could restrain reliable sources to a few critics specialized in discovering artistic side of videogames. That's what happens in cinema and in other estabilished forms of art. Reliable sources are not generical magazines, but specifical critics with high expertise in art. What do you think? Lucafg74 ( talk) 12:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Recently this list has gained more attention even thanks to my promotion on my social channels (steam, facebook, twitter, website). I have an audience of more than 3500 people sensible to videogames art. So i'm not surprised that more and more people are going to add new entries! :-) We have to estabilish clear, shared but tight "scientific" criteria for the list. Referring to specific art critics and experts is what happens in other estabilished forms of art as Cinema. We should select specific art critics writing for reliable sources. Lucafg74 ( talk) 14:03, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Science is founded upon continuosly empirical proofing by scientific community. I'm a physics teacher, i know how science works. Art critic has no empirical proofing foundation, can only be founded around critical discussions among academic community. Discussions concerning comparative analisys with estabilished forms of art and historical experience in the field of art critic. That's all. Videogames as art TODAY has no academic foundation, there is no community of experts or critics specialized in videogames art. For now this list has to be founded upon shared criteria stated by wikipedia community. We could discuss about reliability of the sources. That's my intention. As said, i don't think mainstream magazines centered around needs of mass entertainment market and industry are ALWAYS reliable sources. So we could identify a few critics specialised in reviewing artistic games. Lucafg74 ( talk) 20:40, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
It's wrong to give up the list. We are pioneers of the new wind of art in videogames. Obviously when you are starting something from scratch, without external references, it is always not easy. We have not to give up. We could try to involve other experts, other reliable and recognized critics, to found a new community of videogames art experts on wikipedia Lucafg74 ( talk) 20:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Ok, i agree to move the list to a page of its own. Lucafg74 ( talk) 21:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I would recommend either deleting the "List of artistic video games", or moving it to a separate page. It's clearly promotional for some of these games. I'm not sure how it differs from Art_game#List_of_arthouse_games. Power~enwiki ( talk) 20:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, let's move the list to a separate page. But then we have to define tight "scientific" shared criteria and reliable sources. Lucafg74 ( talk) 21:19, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Masem for shrinking the list, but TODAY videogames masterpieces according to mainstream critics are NOT necessarily artistic titles! TODAY mainstream critics put in poleposition titles oriented to mass entertainment not necessarily artistic. See reviews aggregators as Metacritic or GameRanking. We should define very narrow criteria on our own, using comparative analisys with other forms of art and making a comparison with other specialised critics. We are founders, pioneers, we have to create a community of videogames art critics from scratch. We have to involve the most sensible critics and academics. Wikipedia could be a good aggregator! At first we have to start discussions about art criteria! Lucafg74 ( talk) 00:04, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
We will found Les Cahiers des Jeux Videos (a pun for Les Cahiers du Cinema founded by Truffaut) :-) Lucafg74 ( talk) 00:20, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Done. -
Thibbs (
talk)
01:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2020 and 15 March 2020. Further details are available
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:24, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
There were many historical facts on the struggles through which games were accepted as art in legal terms. However, there should be more support from critics and philosophy from professionals that are familiar with the field. The article focused more on criticism and interpretations that support the idea that games are not art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.41.197.223 ( talk) 19:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
There is now quite a lot of philosophy (i.e. books and peer-reviewed philosophical journal articles) written on this topic. I have added some references and could add more references and actual theoretical details if needed.-- Hardtorememberusername123 ( talk) 01:07, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
The change in location is fine, though the philosophical literature has its origins in the mid 2000s. Your edit introduced a number of inaccuracies (e.g. Tavinor and Robson's book is an edited collection of the work of other philosophers). This material does not belong in theory of legitimation because that section makes an assumption that arguing for the art status of video games amounts to a legitimizing process, which doesn't seem to be an idea common in the philosophical literature. I will add to the paragraph to give a better impression on the work that has been done. I wonder if a new section on academic work on the issue is warranted. Hardtorememberusername123 ( talk) 23:07, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Starting with the beginning, I think it would be in everyone's best interest to define what an "indie game" is. Giving them a link is great, but it would be nice to just have a simple explanation afterwards. Next, during the Empathy Game section, it would be nice to quote other games that are known for dragging the player through an emotional experience, like The Static Speaks My Name or Don't Take This Risk. While reading I though your Controversy was strangely placed, that in might of been better to put the critics after or move it down to be above the critics. In the Other Notable critics some words repeat so much to the point of boredom. Last note, I believe the title should be capitalized to say "Video Games as an Art Form". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.41.197.222 ( talk) 03:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC)