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Text says "apoteca pharmacy farmacia Apotheke (German)"
Why German and not Greek (just as Apotheke is from Greek, bodega in Spanish, apothicaire in French, etc.) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.180 ( talk) 00:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Someone changed the color in this page's infobox, complaining that lawngreen is an eyesore. I agree, it's not the best color, but the reason it was there is that is the (current) color in the template for all Indo-European languages. If you have any better suggestions for a better color scheme (one that gives a unique color for all the known language families), please contribute to the discussion at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages. And, I encourage anyone interested to help out with the project. There are still a lot of languages with articles not using the template.-- Tox 11:11, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you are interested to support the creation of a Venetian Wikipedia you can go to: click here to see the request for a ven.wikipedia. Skafa 12:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I would be interested to see a discussion of Padovano in this article. Linguistically I expect it's just a dialect of Veneto, but I think it has some distinctive features. -- Trovatore 23:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
This article claims the Veronese Riddle is in Venetian; the article on the Riddle says it's a transition between late Latin and early Italian. Which is it? Binabik80 16:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I inserted a tree because the "X branches off after Y" language does not make sense to me. It's true there is a partial tree in the box (if a tree pruned of all branches but one can be called a tree) but that tree does not show how Venetian is related to French and Spanish. — Tamfang 17:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Given/if that the closest big language to Venetian is French & not Italian, it might be nice to have French example sentences along with the Italian ones. If there are no objections I might add those in. -- Adamgarrigus 18:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
To set the record straight (until someone disagrees with me!), to say that Veneto and Spanish are "are mutually comprehensible to some extent" is completely inappropriate. This is true in so far as they are both Romance languages, but it gives the impression (and believe me, this is its intent) that they are somehow more closely related than Veneto is to Italian. This is quite frankly ridiculous. I am a native speaker of Spanish and have lived in Veneto for several years now. When I speak in Spanish, I might as well be speaking in Greek. Of course they get a word here or there, but I should hope so since they are both derived from Latin. And quite frankly, when I hear Veneto being spoken (rather frequently) I understand what I understand not because I know Spanish, but because I know Italian.
The reason for this desperate attempt to try to link Veneto to Spanish and simultaneously distance it from Italian is, in my opinion, not based on evidence but on wishful thinking. The fact that Veneto has erroneously been coupled up with Spanish, Catalan (see their language version!) and French (rather less for some reason)is a recent mistake made by people who are not linguists. It is based on geographical location rather than hard evidence. If someone disagrees with me, please cite a reliable source. (To save you lots of wasted time, don't bother, because you won't find one). Certainly Veneto (and other north eastern languages like Friulano) have a lot in common with Iberian languages, but that is to be expected. If you do a very simple pseudo-linguistic exercise by comparing random phrases in Spanish, Veneto and Italian, it becomes immediately obvious which ones look (and sound) more similar.
So why is it necessary to include these comparisons between Spanish and Veneto? Here's my theory. Veneto is a minority language with no official status (not even in Veneto). It has traditionally been referred to (as it still is by most Veneti) a "dialect" (dialetto), and there are lots of patriotic Veneti who want to distance it from Italian, which is for some absurd reason treated like an enemy. The fact of the matter is that fewer and fewer young Veneti are capable or indeed want to speak Veneto, which is continuously being seen by young generations as provincial.
All of this is related to the ridiculous idea that many north eastern Italians have that they are "Celtic". Besides being historically and genetically incorrect, it becomes immediately obvious to the visitor of Veneto that the people have absolutely nothing in common with the residual Celtic peoples of Europe. The reason for this legend about Italian Celts is based on xenophobia and racism. The Celtic cross (which remains a purely religious symbol in Ireland) has been perverted into a symbol of fascism by various far right-wing Italians. The racism is rife (take a look at the recent situation in Via Anelli in Padova where a Berlin-type wall was erected to separate the Italians from the foreigners.) There have even been people making claims that there are astounding links between Veneto and the Celtic languages!
So, to conclude my ranting, is it really necessary to include all of this "mutually comprehensible" rubbish in an otherwise serious (and well written) article? And if so, is it asking too much to include a reliable reference or source, rather than pure fantastical speculation? (I would include a translation in Spanish, but I don't know if very many Veneti would have dictionaries to translate it!) Massimo377 02:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC) Apart from the fact that Romans wiped out Celts from northern Italy very early(if i'm not wrong), but were'nt Veneti an italic people unrelated to Celts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.44.22.252 ( talk) 03:46, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Jorge/everybody: Perhaps I shouldn't have deleted the old version straight away but the wording was really awkard. Pierrot (I still can't figure out what Pierrot has to do with venetian language...), Arlecchino etc were not invented by Goldoni (therefore can't be considered his characters), and Goldoni himself is famous because he reformed the commedia dell'arte. The current version is much better than the previous, anyway, although Arlecchino had a significant role in Goldoni's plays (no doubt about it), i think the "commedia dell'arte" as mentioned in the article should be considered "italian" rather than venetian. Also, I am not so sure that Goldoni's plays made Arlecchino become part of world's folklore... I presume this is questionable... perhaps contributed to make. I think the text can be improved further. Your thoughts? Lorenzino 21:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Jorge, I amendend your contribution. Your clarification was inconsistent with the article itself: "Otherwise, the spelling rules are mostly those of Italian, except that x traditionally sounds similar to the z in English zero. As in Italian, the letter s between vowels usually represents the [z] sound, so one writes ss in those contexts to get a simple [s]: basa = [baza] ("(he/she) kisses"), bassa = [basa] ("low")." We had just stated that the [z] sound is written with an x, and one line below now I read it's represented with an s. I wrote about the two different systems used although i believe the x/s is the better and it's also the one used in the Wikipedia Veneta http://vec.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Convenzsion_de_scritura . Cheers Lorenzino 14:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I am from Dalmatia, and so far I haven't heard there exist any remnants of Venetian language here. Some citation or source to confirm it would be in order, otherwise it should be removed. -- Arny 14:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
it's confirmed by Ethnologue - Lorenzino 23:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, follow the changes in Italian Wikipedia. This article has a lot of mistakes and this is similar to the old italian version. -- Ilario 01:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Venetian. Thanks, -- Soman 15:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"Although commonly referred to as an Italian dialect (diałeto, dialetto), even by its speakers, it does not descend from the Italian language but has its own morphology, syntax and lexicon."
This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all. I'm trying to count how many non sequiturs there are in there:
I'm trying to come up with a better formulation, but maybe somebody else has some ideas too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
"Venetian was spread through the world by the massive emigration from the Veneto region between 1870 and 1905. Those migrants created large Venetian-speaking communities in Brazil, Mexico, and Romania..." This statement is incorrect regarding Romania. There was no migration to Romania during this period and any traces of Venetian/ Italian language are rooted in trading outposts established much earlier (11th-17th centuries). Nonetheless, the article on Tulcea makes no reference to any Venetian connection, so I don't know if the statement about Tulcea or Romania is valid at all. Can anyone confirm? 66.183.217.31 20:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
One more thing... It should also be noted that in Mexico and Brazil, the Venetian that may be spoken should likely be categorized as a variation (i.e. Mexican Venetian, Brasilian Venetian). If it does indeed exist in some form in Romania, the same would apply; however, we are speaking about centuries, so at best it would be Venetian-influenced Romanian. 66.183.217.31 20:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Well it makes sense that there should be speakers of Venetian in these two countries judging by the centuries of their rule. Is there however any proof from their individual censa that Venetian language is declared? Or is it simply taken for granted to be Venetian when infact the locals have actually declared Italian? I always thought that the number of indigenous Western Romance language speakers of the Adriatic were mostly descended from the Italians who settled there during the interwar period; I was led to believe that the pre-settled Western Romance speakers who surely did speak Venetian embraced the Standard Italian language and an Italian national identity. Evlekis 17:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a small addend here. Recently I went to Italy together with my mother for the first time, who speaks the 'Talian' (Venetian variant spoken in Brazil). We had an appointment with relatives from my father´s side, which are from the Vicenza vicinity. My mother is discendant from the Verona vicinity. When we met these people, after 130 years that my mother´s family had left the Veneto region, they identified strong Veronese accent/dialect on her talk. That was surprising.
Besides that, a common belief here in Brazil is that Venetian became the most spoken italian dialect here because there was a massive wave of immigrants from the Veneto. The italians from other regions had to adapt to be understood, so it is not odd to have people here which family roots are from Calabria, Friuli or Toscana that DO speak Venetian.
Sadly, during the WWII, there was strong political persecution against italian, german and japanese heritage here in Brazil, so very few people still do talk some Venetian. Most people who do still speak some venetian are in their fifties or older.
I myself, understand a few words, but most of the time I talk regular Italian (did a course) when I want to make my 'nonno' happy (son of a Veronese immigrant).
Ciao! -- HSeganfredo ( talk) 04:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I thought the Western Romance languages were supposed to be defined by a plural in -s. But here Venetian is listed as a Western Romance language while it seems to exhibit an Italian plural: gati, gate. So what's the matter? Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 18:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The matter is that this article is not very scientific and objective as it is disturbed by politics. That's why, rightly, this is a B-class article! I give you two examples of true statements which cannot be found in the article: - the Venetian language is not officially recognised in Italy as a minority language; - Italian (Tuscan) was adopted by Venetians (as official and culture language) well before the unification of Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.140.0.27 ( talk) 14:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Let me get this straight, 2 million Italians in Veneto don't speak Italian? Can we get some official information on this, preferrably from the Italian government, as it's kind of strange. If not, we should move. I'd first like to see if there's some good reason for this. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone replaced sporc[o] by onto in several examples that refer to a dirty dog. Is this correct? To my ears, sporc means "dirty" in general sense, while ont[o] (akin to Italian unto) is more specific, namely "greasy". I would not use onto for mud. Is this correct? Is it a matter of regional variation? (I am Brazilian-born but my parents were recent immigrants from Treviso and I grew up speaking Venetian at home.) -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 03:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
There are portions of this section that need some more careful word choices and phrasing
Examples:
"the once proud language was eclipsed" "Tuscan which was imposed"
and so on. "once proud" and "imposed" are a bit strong in meaning. There are a few other examples within that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.141.157 ( talk) 16:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
The article claimed that
I see no evidence here for a neuter gender. The difference between "'sto" and "questo" is euphonic and/or sense (like Italian "cosa fai" and "cos'è"). To show a neuter gender one has to show a 3rd declension for adjectives or artiles, other than masculine/feminine, used for a special set of nouns. All the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 19:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Trying to discuss conservative Venetian and Venetian Italian in the same article is realy confusing. The latter should be only mentioned here, and dicsussed in a separate article. All the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 19:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
The form I suggest, before it is once more "undone": Venetian or Venetan is a Romance language spoken as native language by over two million people,[1] mostly in the Veneto region of Italy, where on almost five million inhabitants almost all can understand it. It is sometime spoken and anyway well understood outside Veneto, in Trentino, Friuli, Venezia Giulia, Istria and some town of Dalmatia, an area of six to seven million people. I think it is neutral, and it is a good compromise between "numbering" effective Venetian-speakers (in my opinion, since I live in Padua, they are more than just 2million people in Veneto) and talking about areas where it is mostly understood if not spoken (I can understand it is a difficult concept for the ones who do not live in an area like the one among Italy, Austria, Slovenia and Croatia).
P.S. I beg your pardon if my English is not perfect :-) correct my phrases if you find some mistake!
The article talks about 2million people speaking Venetian language, but I think they are a larger number. Anyway, the only data I found (since there is no official census) is this (may 2009) poll: http://www.demos.it/a00334.php
The question was: "how frequently do you use [your] dialect?"; and it was referred to the regions of Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and the province of Trento. These percentages refer to the people who usually speak dialect in this area:
In Friuli-VG we have a census on spoken languages, because Friulian is recognised by Italy: usually Venetian-spekers are included among the Italian-speakers ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli_Venezia_Giulia#Lingue ); non-romance minorities in Veneto and the province of Trento are present but count very few people; so we have a total of about 6,050,000 people to consider. Of them, about 4,400,000 people usually speak Venetian at least with their friends, but they were up to 4,750,000 people in 2001. And we are talking about North-East Italy only (excluding Istria etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filippo83 ( talk • contribs) 09:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone: I would like to point out an inconsistency in this article. The language table (top right) shows Venetian as a "Gallo-Italic" language, which it is not, at least not according to the Ethonologue classification, which is as follows (see Northern Italian and Ethnologue):
* Gallo-Italic group (as a subset group) o Piedmontese o Ligurian o Lombard + Western Lombard + Eastern Lombard o Emiliano-Romagnolo + Emiliano + Romagnolo * Venetian group (included as Gallo-Italian according to Ethnologue) o Venetian proper o Istriot (which classification is quite controversial and difficult)
The reason for this is that Venetian has a different substrate language (Venetic), while the others have a Gallic (Celtic) substrate. Could somebody - not me - please correct the table, as I need to cite the CORRECT classification and terminology in other languages. I think you will all agree that pan-Wiki consistency is a good thing.
For completeness, I should add that there are other classifications - Pellegrini, Geoffrey Hull, etc. - but if we are using the Ethnologue classification, then we should follow their terminology, shouldn't we? Thank you.-- LombardBeige ( talk) 06:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I've read somewhere that the name of the modern country of Montenegro, in Europe, comes from the venetian language. Can this be confirmed or is the name spanish? "Montenegro" would sound the same in spanish, but not in italian (where it would be "Monte Nero"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.65.194.248 ( talk) 15:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
i think there are many more venetian speakers than 2 millions...something like 90% or more of the sole population of veneto region (5 million people) can understand it and,for sure,more than 2 millions use it everyday (not counting the ones using it in the other italian regions of friuli and trentino or abroad) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.14.36.152 ( talk) 17:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
the article says that modern italian is based on tuscan and sardinian (??)...that is totally incorrect. modern italian is based on tuscan (florentine) and has been influenced from the other main italian regional languages from the north (lombard,venetian) and from the south (the sicilian influence was particularly important) but sardinian,which is an isolated language, spoken in one of the most closed italian regions (sardinia is an island and had historically far less influence on italy itself than many other regions, comprising also the other "big island" sicily) gave (for that reason) very little to the new national language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.14.36.152 ( talk) 14:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I placed the {{ contradict}} template. The article's opening infobox says it's one of the Gallo-Italic languages, while the Classification section of the article text says it's one of the Italo-Dalmatian languages. I'm not an expert on this, which is why I didn't fix it myself. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 18:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
A highlighted concern expressed by Wikipedia states "Venetian descends from Vulgar Latin, influenced by the Celts and possibly the Venetic substratum and by the languages of the Germanic tribes (Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Lombards) who invaded Italy in the 5th century.[citation needed]." The statement appears to state the Vulgar Latin was influenced by the Celts. Many Latin scholars would disagree, arguing that Vulgar Latin was the ordinary, everyday speech of ancient Romans. Vulgar Latin evolved into the later Romance languages of Europe, through a process of diffusion from trade and conquest. The statement also attributes origins of the Venetian language to languages spoken by Celtic and Germanic cultural groups, instead of attributing the origins of the language to its actual linguistic antecedents. Linguistic antecedents of Venetian would be languages, not patterns of cultural contact, that shaped the Venetian language over time.
A resource that is commonly used by anthropologists, linguists, sociolinguists and other scholars to investigate linguistic origins of languages is Ethnologue, an online resource. The resources brought to bear in Ethnologue come from the more than a century of academic research by scholars of linguistics who conducted systematic comparisons of the linguistic origins of many languages, ancient and modern. This is the link for the Venetian language, http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=vec
The linguistic path of influence on Venetian begins with early Indo-European roots and then proceeds through Indo-European, Italic, Romance (evolving from spoken or vulgar Latin that was widely spoken during the Roman Empire and in Europe after the fall of the empire), Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Italian, and finally Venetian itself. The linguistic summary reported by Ethnologue suggests that origins of Venetian are less likely to be influenced by Germanic cultural contact, and more likely to be influenced by contact with languages spoken in France, Provencal, Portugal, the eastern Adriatic coast (e.g., Dalmatian), as well the local Italian languages spoken in regions that neighbor on what is now Venice.
One should always keep in mind that, when languages evolve, their grammars, phonology and vocabularies are fluid. Systematic comparisons of languages provide the more powerful glimpses into the evolution of a single language; and linguistic comparions also serve to document cultural contact, rather than the other way around. Adonofrio ( talk) 19:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Are Venetian and Venetan really used completely synonymously in English, even in specialist literature? I would have expected that Venetian corresponds to Italian veneziano and refers only to the dialect of Venice, while Venetan corresponds to Italian veneto and refers to the language – hence allowing to distinguish between the narrower and the wider sense. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:22, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
I am aware of all that, but, broadly speaking, "Venetan" is an obscure and only seldomly used adjective, while "Venetian" is more frequently used as the translation of both veneto and veneziano. Most of the times, English speakers refer to people/things related to Veneto as "Venetian", not "Venetan". As of today, by tracking Google hits, one finds that there are
22,220 for "Venetian language" compared to
1,850 for "Venetan language",
48,700 for "Venetian cuisine" compared to
none for "Venetan cuisine",
22,000 for "Venetian people" compared to
148 for "Venetan people",
4,160 for "Venetian nationalism" compared to
none for "Venetan nationalism", etc. The general picture is that there are
64,200,000 for "Venetian" compared to
218,000 for "Venetan" (of course, "Venice" is more popular than "Veneto" on the web, but the proportion is quite different:
179,000,000 for "Venice" compared to
98,200,000 for "Veneto"!). --
Checco (
talk)
07:14, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Ps: This is a general discussion on the usage of "Venetian" or "Venetan" referring to Veneto. The isssue should be thus dealt at
Talk:Veneto.
Simply, "Venetan" is almost never used and is at best inaccurate. "Venetian" is the English translation of both veneto and veneziano. No doubt about it. -- Checco ( talk) 11:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
The creator of the completely unsourced Italo-Dalmatian languages stub is dead set on placing Venetian on his page, having reverted two attempts to bring it in line with what you guys had here. If he's right, peachy, and his page could use some sources. If he's wrong (which I assume he is from Venetian's geographic location, its similarities with French, this page's Italian version, his page's Italian version, cursory googling, etc...), it'd be nice to have some help dealing with him and whatever source he's misremembering. (Or is there something in between where Venetian really should be categorized as a separate Romance branch the way Sardinian is?)
In any case, once we have this sorted, kindly keep this page, his page, Gallo-Romance, and Italian dialects on the same page, ideally with some WP:RS cites. Ciao! — LlywelynII 23:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
In this article there used to be a section claiming that the venetian past particle ending in -esto (piovesto, volesto etc) derived from the venetic language. I returned here now to find the source of that statement, but the whole section is gone. Does anybody has a source about this? All the sources I've found claim that the particle derives from latin, but I'm interested in the Venetic theory. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.236.122.143 ( talk) 16:18, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Can you help??!!
I've been trying to find information on Venetian root classification. I am puzzled that this language/dialect is surrounded by Friulian, Romansch and Ladin and those three are commonly derived while Venetian is reported to share similarities to dialects spoken farther away. How can this be the case within a dialect continuum? That practically transgresses the laws of science! The only thing I can think of is that with the Republic of Venice having been in existence for centuries that an independent standard formed while all around it developed independently, like Sardinian after breaking away linguistically. But then there are two problems here: first the Veneto is not insular, and second, the long-standing republic ruled areas east of Venice so this would have meant Friuli where the spoken language is a form of Rhaeto-Romansch. Can anyone throw light?
And for the record? What exactly is Venetian closest related to? The article at one point suggests Istriot and Tuscan Italian, the latter being to basis for standard Italian, while elsewhere it is suggested that Venetian is closer to Spanish and French standards than to Italian. All vague for those of us less informed. Please let me know. -- OJ ( TALK) 11:25, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Some information on the extent of mutual intelligibility between Venetian and standard Italian would be useful in this article. 109.145.27.215 ( talk) 09:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps he is also genuinely curious...
I can't provide numerical data, but spoken Venetian tends to be much easier to understand than most other dialects because it does not seem to feature as many sounds that are absent in standard Italian, like the ü ö and the nasal sounds of Lombardy ("lü" for "lupo") or the retroflex -dd- ones of Sicily.
Rather, the difficulty lies in the presence of terms that are easy to pronounce but whose meaning may be unknown to other Italians - like "marangòn". We all know somoneone named Marangon, for it is a very common surname, but only a few know that it is Venetian for "falegname" (carpenter).
I found
this text available on Wikisource. I think it very much depends on WHO the reader is (i.e. higher education, exposure to other languages, etc.) However, I am no scholar (besides, I am more interested in science than in literature) and I can understand every word of it. Hope it helps.
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"Another peculiarity of the language is the use of the phrase eser drìo (literally, "to be behind") to indicate continuing action: Me pare, el xe drìo parlàr My father is speaking"
This isn't only Venetian: in Western Lombardy dialects we use the same form, "El me pà a l'è dré a parlà" (depending on the area, sometimes people actually say "ul me pà", "ol me pà", etc.
Still, this French-style form (mon père est en train de parler) is very much used in Lombard dialects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.36.195.188 ( talk) 21:34, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
In several places there seems to be confusion between ł and ƚ, not sure in which way to fix:
These could be simply typos, but both seem used so maybe more explanation would be needed. The Venetian wikipedia for instance uses ł https://vec.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C3%A9ngua_v%C3%A8neta while Omniglot uses ƚ https://omniglot.com/writing/venetian.htm
GrandTurion ( talk) 05:49, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Since the user Fdom5997 keeps reverting my changes, I'll open the topic in a more sources-oriented way here, so that we can clear it once for all I hope.
At my latest revision that the use of [ɰ] for an I.P.A. transcription of the "elle evanescente" has no sources ([ɰ] being closer to [ɡ] and [ɣ] than to an /e/ semivocalic sound it's unconceivable why this transcription is still being used) a grammar of a "Prof. Silvano Belloni" has been added as a reference for the existence of [ɰ] as an allophone of /l/ in Venetian.
I can't find any section in the grammar of Belloni that uses I.P.A. transcription for this sound (or I.P.A. trascription at all for all that matters). Please correct me if I'm wrong - the book is readily available in PDF-version on the web, though of dubious academic quality/background.
Moreover, I can add a list of academic literature of Venetian linguists that clearly transcript the sound as (AND ONLY AS) [e̯]:
1. Zamboni, Alberto (1980): Veneto. Pisa: Pacini. (The author has phonetic transcriptions of vinyl-recordings for every Venetian variety in his monography!).
2. Ferguson, Ronnie (2007): A Linguistic History of Venice. Firenze: Olschki.
3. Tomasin's article "elle evanescente" is already in the bibliography of the Wikipedia page - Tomasin, Lorenzo (2010), La cosiddetta "elle evanescente" del veneziano: fra dialettologia e storia linguistica (PDF), Palermo: Centro di studi filologici e linguistici siciliani.
For these names (and obviously Cortelazzo) there is a continuous cross-referencing in academic literature about Venetian, Belloni I never heard of and I've never seen cited his name anywhere in academic papers that I readily use for my academic work.
If needed I can reference the exact pages in these works and add more sources from (Giulio) Lepschy and (Luciano) Canepari, both are well known Italian linguistics, the latter a Venetian phonetician.
Also, there is no difference between "word initially and elsewhere" - this is incorrect. It should be "word-initially and intervocalically" /l/ > /e̯/. That only in the case that we don't have a /e, i/ sound around, there it gets deleted altogether i.e. telefono [teˈɛfono] "telephone". Hence i.e. luna [ˈe̯una] "moon", la cola [e̯a ˈkɔe̯a] "the glue", but vardarla [vaɾˈdaɾla] "looking-her". Or lezar [ˈɛzaɾ] "to read" but par lezar [paɾ‿ˈlɛzaɾ] "for reading". So obviously the transcription of one of the most famous Venetian words gondola should be [ˈɡoŋdoe̯a], [ˈɡoŋdoa] or [ˈɡoŋdola], but surely not [ˈɡoŋdoɰa].
I'd like to have some help to clear this topic, especially because it's not only about this page: I suppose the flawed informations that are written in both the Italian page of Wikipedia about Venetian as well as in the English page about the Voiced velar approximant /ɰ/ can be traced back to to the incorrect information that is to be found on this page.
(PS. I'm a native speaker of this language and linguistics grad)
Gianluca Beraldo ( talk) 19:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
It is strange that "astiàr", meaning "to bore", is listed as coming from Gothic "𐌷𐌰𐌹𐍆𐍃𐍄𐍃" (haifsts) meaning "contest", when there is a Spanish word which is "hastiar" that also means "to bore", which is said to come from Latin "fastidiare" and has the same pronunciation as Venetian "astiàr".
hastiar from Wiktionary. †_JuanPa_† ( talk) 23:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
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Text says "apoteca pharmacy farmacia Apotheke (German)"
Why German and not Greek (just as Apotheke is from Greek, bodega in Spanish, apothicaire in French, etc.) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.180 ( talk) 00:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Someone changed the color in this page's infobox, complaining that lawngreen is an eyesore. I agree, it's not the best color, but the reason it was there is that is the (current) color in the template for all Indo-European languages. If you have any better suggestions for a better color scheme (one that gives a unique color for all the known language families), please contribute to the discussion at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages. And, I encourage anyone interested to help out with the project. There are still a lot of languages with articles not using the template.-- Tox 11:11, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you are interested to support the creation of a Venetian Wikipedia you can go to: click here to see the request for a ven.wikipedia. Skafa 12:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I would be interested to see a discussion of Padovano in this article. Linguistically I expect it's just a dialect of Veneto, but I think it has some distinctive features. -- Trovatore 23:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
This article claims the Veronese Riddle is in Venetian; the article on the Riddle says it's a transition between late Latin and early Italian. Which is it? Binabik80 16:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I inserted a tree because the "X branches off after Y" language does not make sense to me. It's true there is a partial tree in the box (if a tree pruned of all branches but one can be called a tree) but that tree does not show how Venetian is related to French and Spanish. — Tamfang 17:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Given/if that the closest big language to Venetian is French & not Italian, it might be nice to have French example sentences along with the Italian ones. If there are no objections I might add those in. -- Adamgarrigus 18:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
To set the record straight (until someone disagrees with me!), to say that Veneto and Spanish are "are mutually comprehensible to some extent" is completely inappropriate. This is true in so far as they are both Romance languages, but it gives the impression (and believe me, this is its intent) that they are somehow more closely related than Veneto is to Italian. This is quite frankly ridiculous. I am a native speaker of Spanish and have lived in Veneto for several years now. When I speak in Spanish, I might as well be speaking in Greek. Of course they get a word here or there, but I should hope so since they are both derived from Latin. And quite frankly, when I hear Veneto being spoken (rather frequently) I understand what I understand not because I know Spanish, but because I know Italian.
The reason for this desperate attempt to try to link Veneto to Spanish and simultaneously distance it from Italian is, in my opinion, not based on evidence but on wishful thinking. The fact that Veneto has erroneously been coupled up with Spanish, Catalan (see their language version!) and French (rather less for some reason)is a recent mistake made by people who are not linguists. It is based on geographical location rather than hard evidence. If someone disagrees with me, please cite a reliable source. (To save you lots of wasted time, don't bother, because you won't find one). Certainly Veneto (and other north eastern languages like Friulano) have a lot in common with Iberian languages, but that is to be expected. If you do a very simple pseudo-linguistic exercise by comparing random phrases in Spanish, Veneto and Italian, it becomes immediately obvious which ones look (and sound) more similar.
So why is it necessary to include these comparisons between Spanish and Veneto? Here's my theory. Veneto is a minority language with no official status (not even in Veneto). It has traditionally been referred to (as it still is by most Veneti) a "dialect" (dialetto), and there are lots of patriotic Veneti who want to distance it from Italian, which is for some absurd reason treated like an enemy. The fact of the matter is that fewer and fewer young Veneti are capable or indeed want to speak Veneto, which is continuously being seen by young generations as provincial.
All of this is related to the ridiculous idea that many north eastern Italians have that they are "Celtic". Besides being historically and genetically incorrect, it becomes immediately obvious to the visitor of Veneto that the people have absolutely nothing in common with the residual Celtic peoples of Europe. The reason for this legend about Italian Celts is based on xenophobia and racism. The Celtic cross (which remains a purely religious symbol in Ireland) has been perverted into a symbol of fascism by various far right-wing Italians. The racism is rife (take a look at the recent situation in Via Anelli in Padova where a Berlin-type wall was erected to separate the Italians from the foreigners.) There have even been people making claims that there are astounding links between Veneto and the Celtic languages!
So, to conclude my ranting, is it really necessary to include all of this "mutually comprehensible" rubbish in an otherwise serious (and well written) article? And if so, is it asking too much to include a reliable reference or source, rather than pure fantastical speculation? (I would include a translation in Spanish, but I don't know if very many Veneti would have dictionaries to translate it!) Massimo377 02:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC) Apart from the fact that Romans wiped out Celts from northern Italy very early(if i'm not wrong), but were'nt Veneti an italic people unrelated to Celts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.44.22.252 ( talk) 03:46, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Jorge/everybody: Perhaps I shouldn't have deleted the old version straight away but the wording was really awkard. Pierrot (I still can't figure out what Pierrot has to do with venetian language...), Arlecchino etc were not invented by Goldoni (therefore can't be considered his characters), and Goldoni himself is famous because he reformed the commedia dell'arte. The current version is much better than the previous, anyway, although Arlecchino had a significant role in Goldoni's plays (no doubt about it), i think the "commedia dell'arte" as mentioned in the article should be considered "italian" rather than venetian. Also, I am not so sure that Goldoni's plays made Arlecchino become part of world's folklore... I presume this is questionable... perhaps contributed to make. I think the text can be improved further. Your thoughts? Lorenzino 21:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Jorge, I amendend your contribution. Your clarification was inconsistent with the article itself: "Otherwise, the spelling rules are mostly those of Italian, except that x traditionally sounds similar to the z in English zero. As in Italian, the letter s between vowels usually represents the [z] sound, so one writes ss in those contexts to get a simple [s]: basa = [baza] ("(he/she) kisses"), bassa = [basa] ("low")." We had just stated that the [z] sound is written with an x, and one line below now I read it's represented with an s. I wrote about the two different systems used although i believe the x/s is the better and it's also the one used in the Wikipedia Veneta http://vec.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Convenzsion_de_scritura . Cheers Lorenzino 14:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I am from Dalmatia, and so far I haven't heard there exist any remnants of Venetian language here. Some citation or source to confirm it would be in order, otherwise it should be removed. -- Arny 14:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
it's confirmed by Ethnologue - Lorenzino 23:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, follow the changes in Italian Wikipedia. This article has a lot of mistakes and this is similar to the old italian version. -- Ilario 01:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Venetian. Thanks, -- Soman 15:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"Although commonly referred to as an Italian dialect (diałeto, dialetto), even by its speakers, it does not descend from the Italian language but has its own morphology, syntax and lexicon."
This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all. I'm trying to count how many non sequiturs there are in there:
I'm trying to come up with a better formulation, but maybe somebody else has some ideas too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
"Venetian was spread through the world by the massive emigration from the Veneto region between 1870 and 1905. Those migrants created large Venetian-speaking communities in Brazil, Mexico, and Romania..." This statement is incorrect regarding Romania. There was no migration to Romania during this period and any traces of Venetian/ Italian language are rooted in trading outposts established much earlier (11th-17th centuries). Nonetheless, the article on Tulcea makes no reference to any Venetian connection, so I don't know if the statement about Tulcea or Romania is valid at all. Can anyone confirm? 66.183.217.31 20:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
One more thing... It should also be noted that in Mexico and Brazil, the Venetian that may be spoken should likely be categorized as a variation (i.e. Mexican Venetian, Brasilian Venetian). If it does indeed exist in some form in Romania, the same would apply; however, we are speaking about centuries, so at best it would be Venetian-influenced Romanian. 66.183.217.31 20:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Well it makes sense that there should be speakers of Venetian in these two countries judging by the centuries of their rule. Is there however any proof from their individual censa that Venetian language is declared? Or is it simply taken for granted to be Venetian when infact the locals have actually declared Italian? I always thought that the number of indigenous Western Romance language speakers of the Adriatic were mostly descended from the Italians who settled there during the interwar period; I was led to believe that the pre-settled Western Romance speakers who surely did speak Venetian embraced the Standard Italian language and an Italian national identity. Evlekis 17:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a small addend here. Recently I went to Italy together with my mother for the first time, who speaks the 'Talian' (Venetian variant spoken in Brazil). We had an appointment with relatives from my father´s side, which are from the Vicenza vicinity. My mother is discendant from the Verona vicinity. When we met these people, after 130 years that my mother´s family had left the Veneto region, they identified strong Veronese accent/dialect on her talk. That was surprising.
Besides that, a common belief here in Brazil is that Venetian became the most spoken italian dialect here because there was a massive wave of immigrants from the Veneto. The italians from other regions had to adapt to be understood, so it is not odd to have people here which family roots are from Calabria, Friuli or Toscana that DO speak Venetian.
Sadly, during the WWII, there was strong political persecution against italian, german and japanese heritage here in Brazil, so very few people still do talk some Venetian. Most people who do still speak some venetian are in their fifties or older.
I myself, understand a few words, but most of the time I talk regular Italian (did a course) when I want to make my 'nonno' happy (son of a Veronese immigrant).
Ciao! -- HSeganfredo ( talk) 04:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I thought the Western Romance languages were supposed to be defined by a plural in -s. But here Venetian is listed as a Western Romance language while it seems to exhibit an Italian plural: gati, gate. So what's the matter? Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 18:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The matter is that this article is not very scientific and objective as it is disturbed by politics. That's why, rightly, this is a B-class article! I give you two examples of true statements which cannot be found in the article: - the Venetian language is not officially recognised in Italy as a minority language; - Italian (Tuscan) was adopted by Venetians (as official and culture language) well before the unification of Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.140.0.27 ( talk) 14:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Let me get this straight, 2 million Italians in Veneto don't speak Italian? Can we get some official information on this, preferrably from the Italian government, as it's kind of strange. If not, we should move. I'd first like to see if there's some good reason for this. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone replaced sporc[o] by onto in several examples that refer to a dirty dog. Is this correct? To my ears, sporc means "dirty" in general sense, while ont[o] (akin to Italian unto) is more specific, namely "greasy". I would not use onto for mud. Is this correct? Is it a matter of regional variation? (I am Brazilian-born but my parents were recent immigrants from Treviso and I grew up speaking Venetian at home.) -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 03:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
There are portions of this section that need some more careful word choices and phrasing
Examples:
"the once proud language was eclipsed" "Tuscan which was imposed"
and so on. "once proud" and "imposed" are a bit strong in meaning. There are a few other examples within that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.141.157 ( talk) 16:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
The article claimed that
I see no evidence here for a neuter gender. The difference between "'sto" and "questo" is euphonic and/or sense (like Italian "cosa fai" and "cos'è"). To show a neuter gender one has to show a 3rd declension for adjectives or artiles, other than masculine/feminine, used for a special set of nouns. All the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 19:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Trying to discuss conservative Venetian and Venetian Italian in the same article is realy confusing. The latter should be only mentioned here, and dicsussed in a separate article. All the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 19:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
The form I suggest, before it is once more "undone": Venetian or Venetan is a Romance language spoken as native language by over two million people,[1] mostly in the Veneto region of Italy, where on almost five million inhabitants almost all can understand it. It is sometime spoken and anyway well understood outside Veneto, in Trentino, Friuli, Venezia Giulia, Istria and some town of Dalmatia, an area of six to seven million people. I think it is neutral, and it is a good compromise between "numbering" effective Venetian-speakers (in my opinion, since I live in Padua, they are more than just 2million people in Veneto) and talking about areas where it is mostly understood if not spoken (I can understand it is a difficult concept for the ones who do not live in an area like the one among Italy, Austria, Slovenia and Croatia).
P.S. I beg your pardon if my English is not perfect :-) correct my phrases if you find some mistake!
The article talks about 2million people speaking Venetian language, but I think they are a larger number. Anyway, the only data I found (since there is no official census) is this (may 2009) poll: http://www.demos.it/a00334.php
The question was: "how frequently do you use [your] dialect?"; and it was referred to the regions of Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and the province of Trento. These percentages refer to the people who usually speak dialect in this area:
In Friuli-VG we have a census on spoken languages, because Friulian is recognised by Italy: usually Venetian-spekers are included among the Italian-speakers ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli_Venezia_Giulia#Lingue ); non-romance minorities in Veneto and the province of Trento are present but count very few people; so we have a total of about 6,050,000 people to consider. Of them, about 4,400,000 people usually speak Venetian at least with their friends, but they were up to 4,750,000 people in 2001. And we are talking about North-East Italy only (excluding Istria etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filippo83 ( talk • contribs) 09:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone: I would like to point out an inconsistency in this article. The language table (top right) shows Venetian as a "Gallo-Italic" language, which it is not, at least not according to the Ethonologue classification, which is as follows (see Northern Italian and Ethnologue):
* Gallo-Italic group (as a subset group) o Piedmontese o Ligurian o Lombard + Western Lombard + Eastern Lombard o Emiliano-Romagnolo + Emiliano + Romagnolo * Venetian group (included as Gallo-Italian according to Ethnologue) o Venetian proper o Istriot (which classification is quite controversial and difficult)
The reason for this is that Venetian has a different substrate language (Venetic), while the others have a Gallic (Celtic) substrate. Could somebody - not me - please correct the table, as I need to cite the CORRECT classification and terminology in other languages. I think you will all agree that pan-Wiki consistency is a good thing.
For completeness, I should add that there are other classifications - Pellegrini, Geoffrey Hull, etc. - but if we are using the Ethnologue classification, then we should follow their terminology, shouldn't we? Thank you.-- LombardBeige ( talk) 06:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I've read somewhere that the name of the modern country of Montenegro, in Europe, comes from the venetian language. Can this be confirmed or is the name spanish? "Montenegro" would sound the same in spanish, but not in italian (where it would be "Monte Nero"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.65.194.248 ( talk) 15:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
i think there are many more venetian speakers than 2 millions...something like 90% or more of the sole population of veneto region (5 million people) can understand it and,for sure,more than 2 millions use it everyday (not counting the ones using it in the other italian regions of friuli and trentino or abroad) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.14.36.152 ( talk) 17:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
the article says that modern italian is based on tuscan and sardinian (??)...that is totally incorrect. modern italian is based on tuscan (florentine) and has been influenced from the other main italian regional languages from the north (lombard,venetian) and from the south (the sicilian influence was particularly important) but sardinian,which is an isolated language, spoken in one of the most closed italian regions (sardinia is an island and had historically far less influence on italy itself than many other regions, comprising also the other "big island" sicily) gave (for that reason) very little to the new national language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.14.36.152 ( talk) 14:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I placed the {{ contradict}} template. The article's opening infobox says it's one of the Gallo-Italic languages, while the Classification section of the article text says it's one of the Italo-Dalmatian languages. I'm not an expert on this, which is why I didn't fix it myself. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 18:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
A highlighted concern expressed by Wikipedia states "Venetian descends from Vulgar Latin, influenced by the Celts and possibly the Venetic substratum and by the languages of the Germanic tribes (Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Lombards) who invaded Italy in the 5th century.[citation needed]." The statement appears to state the Vulgar Latin was influenced by the Celts. Many Latin scholars would disagree, arguing that Vulgar Latin was the ordinary, everyday speech of ancient Romans. Vulgar Latin evolved into the later Romance languages of Europe, through a process of diffusion from trade and conquest. The statement also attributes origins of the Venetian language to languages spoken by Celtic and Germanic cultural groups, instead of attributing the origins of the language to its actual linguistic antecedents. Linguistic antecedents of Venetian would be languages, not patterns of cultural contact, that shaped the Venetian language over time.
A resource that is commonly used by anthropologists, linguists, sociolinguists and other scholars to investigate linguistic origins of languages is Ethnologue, an online resource. The resources brought to bear in Ethnologue come from the more than a century of academic research by scholars of linguistics who conducted systematic comparisons of the linguistic origins of many languages, ancient and modern. This is the link for the Venetian language, http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=vec
The linguistic path of influence on Venetian begins with early Indo-European roots and then proceeds through Indo-European, Italic, Romance (evolving from spoken or vulgar Latin that was widely spoken during the Roman Empire and in Europe after the fall of the empire), Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Italian, and finally Venetian itself. The linguistic summary reported by Ethnologue suggests that origins of Venetian are less likely to be influenced by Germanic cultural contact, and more likely to be influenced by contact with languages spoken in France, Provencal, Portugal, the eastern Adriatic coast (e.g., Dalmatian), as well the local Italian languages spoken in regions that neighbor on what is now Venice.
One should always keep in mind that, when languages evolve, their grammars, phonology and vocabularies are fluid. Systematic comparisons of languages provide the more powerful glimpses into the evolution of a single language; and linguistic comparions also serve to document cultural contact, rather than the other way around. Adonofrio ( talk) 19:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Are Venetian and Venetan really used completely synonymously in English, even in specialist literature? I would have expected that Venetian corresponds to Italian veneziano and refers only to the dialect of Venice, while Venetan corresponds to Italian veneto and refers to the language – hence allowing to distinguish between the narrower and the wider sense. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:22, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
I am aware of all that, but, broadly speaking, "Venetan" is an obscure and only seldomly used adjective, while "Venetian" is more frequently used as the translation of both veneto and veneziano. Most of the times, English speakers refer to people/things related to Veneto as "Venetian", not "Venetan". As of today, by tracking Google hits, one finds that there are
22,220 for "Venetian language" compared to
1,850 for "Venetan language",
48,700 for "Venetian cuisine" compared to
none for "Venetan cuisine",
22,000 for "Venetian people" compared to
148 for "Venetan people",
4,160 for "Venetian nationalism" compared to
none for "Venetan nationalism", etc. The general picture is that there are
64,200,000 for "Venetian" compared to
218,000 for "Venetan" (of course, "Venice" is more popular than "Veneto" on the web, but the proportion is quite different:
179,000,000 for "Venice" compared to
98,200,000 for "Veneto"!). --
Checco (
talk)
07:14, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Ps: This is a general discussion on the usage of "Venetian" or "Venetan" referring to Veneto. The isssue should be thus dealt at
Talk:Veneto.
Simply, "Venetan" is almost never used and is at best inaccurate. "Venetian" is the English translation of both veneto and veneziano. No doubt about it. -- Checco ( talk) 11:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
The creator of the completely unsourced Italo-Dalmatian languages stub is dead set on placing Venetian on his page, having reverted two attempts to bring it in line with what you guys had here. If he's right, peachy, and his page could use some sources. If he's wrong (which I assume he is from Venetian's geographic location, its similarities with French, this page's Italian version, his page's Italian version, cursory googling, etc...), it'd be nice to have some help dealing with him and whatever source he's misremembering. (Or is there something in between where Venetian really should be categorized as a separate Romance branch the way Sardinian is?)
In any case, once we have this sorted, kindly keep this page, his page, Gallo-Romance, and Italian dialects on the same page, ideally with some WP:RS cites. Ciao! — LlywelynII 23:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
In this article there used to be a section claiming that the venetian past particle ending in -esto (piovesto, volesto etc) derived from the venetic language. I returned here now to find the source of that statement, but the whole section is gone. Does anybody has a source about this? All the sources I've found claim that the particle derives from latin, but I'm interested in the Venetic theory. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.236.122.143 ( talk) 16:18, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Can you help??!!
I've been trying to find information on Venetian root classification. I am puzzled that this language/dialect is surrounded by Friulian, Romansch and Ladin and those three are commonly derived while Venetian is reported to share similarities to dialects spoken farther away. How can this be the case within a dialect continuum? That practically transgresses the laws of science! The only thing I can think of is that with the Republic of Venice having been in existence for centuries that an independent standard formed while all around it developed independently, like Sardinian after breaking away linguistically. But then there are two problems here: first the Veneto is not insular, and second, the long-standing republic ruled areas east of Venice so this would have meant Friuli where the spoken language is a form of Rhaeto-Romansch. Can anyone throw light?
And for the record? What exactly is Venetian closest related to? The article at one point suggests Istriot and Tuscan Italian, the latter being to basis for standard Italian, while elsewhere it is suggested that Venetian is closer to Spanish and French standards than to Italian. All vague for those of us less informed. Please let me know. -- OJ ( TALK) 11:25, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Some information on the extent of mutual intelligibility between Venetian and standard Italian would be useful in this article. 109.145.27.215 ( talk) 09:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps he is also genuinely curious...
I can't provide numerical data, but spoken Venetian tends to be much easier to understand than most other dialects because it does not seem to feature as many sounds that are absent in standard Italian, like the ü ö and the nasal sounds of Lombardy ("lü" for "lupo") or the retroflex -dd- ones of Sicily.
Rather, the difficulty lies in the presence of terms that are easy to pronounce but whose meaning may be unknown to other Italians - like "marangòn". We all know somoneone named Marangon, for it is a very common surname, but only a few know that it is Venetian for "falegname" (carpenter).
I found
this text available on Wikisource. I think it very much depends on WHO the reader is (i.e. higher education, exposure to other languages, etc.) However, I am no scholar (besides, I am more interested in science than in literature) and I can understand every word of it. Hope it helps.
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"Another peculiarity of the language is the use of the phrase eser drìo (literally, "to be behind") to indicate continuing action: Me pare, el xe drìo parlàr My father is speaking"
This isn't only Venetian: in Western Lombardy dialects we use the same form, "El me pà a l'è dré a parlà" (depending on the area, sometimes people actually say "ul me pà", "ol me pà", etc.
Still, this French-style form (mon père est en train de parler) is very much used in Lombard dialects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.36.195.188 ( talk) 21:34, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
In several places there seems to be confusion between ł and ƚ, not sure in which way to fix:
These could be simply typos, but both seem used so maybe more explanation would be needed. The Venetian wikipedia for instance uses ł https://vec.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C3%A9ngua_v%C3%A8neta while Omniglot uses ƚ https://omniglot.com/writing/venetian.htm
GrandTurion ( talk) 05:49, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Since the user Fdom5997 keeps reverting my changes, I'll open the topic in a more sources-oriented way here, so that we can clear it once for all I hope.
At my latest revision that the use of [ɰ] for an I.P.A. transcription of the "elle evanescente" has no sources ([ɰ] being closer to [ɡ] and [ɣ] than to an /e/ semivocalic sound it's unconceivable why this transcription is still being used) a grammar of a "Prof. Silvano Belloni" has been added as a reference for the existence of [ɰ] as an allophone of /l/ in Venetian.
I can't find any section in the grammar of Belloni that uses I.P.A. transcription for this sound (or I.P.A. trascription at all for all that matters). Please correct me if I'm wrong - the book is readily available in PDF-version on the web, though of dubious academic quality/background.
Moreover, I can add a list of academic literature of Venetian linguists that clearly transcript the sound as (AND ONLY AS) [e̯]:
1. Zamboni, Alberto (1980): Veneto. Pisa: Pacini. (The author has phonetic transcriptions of vinyl-recordings for every Venetian variety in his monography!).
2. Ferguson, Ronnie (2007): A Linguistic History of Venice. Firenze: Olschki.
3. Tomasin's article "elle evanescente" is already in the bibliography of the Wikipedia page - Tomasin, Lorenzo (2010), La cosiddetta "elle evanescente" del veneziano: fra dialettologia e storia linguistica (PDF), Palermo: Centro di studi filologici e linguistici siciliani.
For these names (and obviously Cortelazzo) there is a continuous cross-referencing in academic literature about Venetian, Belloni I never heard of and I've never seen cited his name anywhere in academic papers that I readily use for my academic work.
If needed I can reference the exact pages in these works and add more sources from (Giulio) Lepschy and (Luciano) Canepari, both are well known Italian linguistics, the latter a Venetian phonetician.
Also, there is no difference between "word initially and elsewhere" - this is incorrect. It should be "word-initially and intervocalically" /l/ > /e̯/. That only in the case that we don't have a /e, i/ sound around, there it gets deleted altogether i.e. telefono [teˈɛfono] "telephone". Hence i.e. luna [ˈe̯una] "moon", la cola [e̯a ˈkɔe̯a] "the glue", but vardarla [vaɾˈdaɾla] "looking-her". Or lezar [ˈɛzaɾ] "to read" but par lezar [paɾ‿ˈlɛzaɾ] "for reading". So obviously the transcription of one of the most famous Venetian words gondola should be [ˈɡoŋdoe̯a], [ˈɡoŋdoa] or [ˈɡoŋdola], but surely not [ˈɡoŋdoɰa].
I'd like to have some help to clear this topic, especially because it's not only about this page: I suppose the flawed informations that are written in both the Italian page of Wikipedia about Venetian as well as in the English page about the Voiced velar approximant /ɰ/ can be traced back to to the incorrect information that is to be found on this page.
(PS. I'm a native speaker of this language and linguistics grad)
Gianluca Beraldo ( talk) 19:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
It is strange that "astiàr", meaning "to bore", is listed as coming from Gothic "𐌷𐌰𐌹𐍆𐍃𐍄𐍃" (haifsts) meaning "contest", when there is a Spanish word which is "hastiar" that also means "to bore", which is said to come from Latin "fastidiare" and has the same pronunciation as Venetian "astiàr".
hastiar from Wiktionary. †_JuanPa_† ( talk) 23:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)