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Velirs are believed to be descendants of Yadu [1] - today the descendants of Yadu are called Yadavas (also Ahirs, Konars, Idaiyar, Gowda, Gollas)
Not a single dynasty record(s) according to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers show any linkage between Velirs and Vellalars. According to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers Vel-Ay, Mal-Vel-Ay are Ay Kings belonging to Ayar Community.
According to Pivot Politics: Changing Cultural Identities in Early State Formation Processes Paperback – 1994 by Martin Van Bakel Renee Hagestenijn Pieter Van De Velde, it states that Velirs are segmentary lineages of Yadavas (there is no mention of Vellalars or any linkage to Vellalars).
According to Neolithic Cattle-Keepers of South India: A Study of the Deccan Ashmounds. F. R. Allchin Ayars and Velirs are Cattle-keepers who rose to the level of petty chieftains.
Pattinappalai clearly states that velir King Irunkovel belongs to Shepherd race.
If Velirs = Vellalars, why would someone describe the hierarchical structure Ventar - Velir - Vellalar separately? If Velirs = Vellalars, thenn either the word Vellalar or Velir would have been omitted / because it would be redundant. It is clear from the hierarchy structure VELIRS ARE NOT VELLALARS and vice-versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 ( talk) 20:42, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
I sincerely hope that those who contribute to Wikipedia research history of Ay Kings and Velirs are clear about the history of Velirs.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 ( talk) 18:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
References
Rajkris, I went thru the book by Hockings (the only new reference you provided in the Vellalar article). The book is not available for viewing on google books, so doing a copy-paste for you (reproducing parts of page numbers you quoted).
Page 303:
The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with
Page 304:
a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.
Most Vellala subcastes share broadly similar origin myths that stress their links with the soil as agriculturists (as contrasted with artisans), their origin in the Ganga (Gangetic valley) and migration from northern to southern India during the distant past, and their close relationship with the three ancient Tamil dynasties — Chera, Chola, and Pan dya — in spite of the Vellalas' ineligibility for kingship. There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir., the earliest references are found in the sangam literature (first to third century AD). Until about the fourteenth century AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.
[…] Depending on the region, the Vellala may be the dominant caste, may share dominance with another caste, or may be a minority. In villages along the river basins, where wet rice cultivation is prominent, the dominant caste is often Vellala (of either category). Within a village, each Vellala subcaste, as indeed every subcaste, tends to live in a separate street. In larger villages and towns, this pattern gets blurred....
Note that Paul Hockings does not provide the literary and archaeological evidences, which link "core Vellala subcastes" with velir. Hockings mentioned Vellalar subcastes, even described their living pattern, yet Hockings does not state which are "core Vellala subcastes". Hockings notes Vellalars are heterogeneous, with varying criteria defining them. Yet instead of providing actual evidence linking them to Velir, he goes on (instead), to refer to sangam literature, assuming Sangam period Velirs and later-day Vellalars are the same. To handle this and other modern historians who merely repeat the Vellalar-Velir connection, made by medieval / modern historians, am pasting content from some sources (not available on google books) so you can also read them.-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 04:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
The content below has been taken from 3 sources all of which describe the same points.
Evidence of a broad dual division of society is provided by the references to the Cānrōr or Uyarndōr and the Iḷicinar. The position of dominance was occupied by the chiefs/kings and the landed local elite (Velir, Kilavan or Kilan, talaivan, entai) collectively referred to as Uyarndōr and Cānrōr (the superior ones) while the lower category generally termed as Iḷicinar were engaged in various 'inferior' activities or subsistence production. It is only in the medieval commentaries on Sangam works that references to the superior Velalas (land owning group) and inferior Velala (cultivators) occur together with the Velir chiefs as the dominant land owning groups controlling fairly large areas of agricultural land indicating that stratification based on land distribution and control was believed to have existed even in this early period. The Velir are described in the Sangam works as lesser chiefs, pastoral-cum-agricultural, but next in importance only to the Vendor as a dominant socio-political group and as patrons of the Tamil poets.
-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 05:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
Content below is quoted from 2 source (both are by same author and quote the same sentences).
The Velalas, especially the agriculturists, were a very important limb of society. Nachchinarkkiniyar recognizes two types of Velalas; the superior and the inferior. The superior Velalas owned land and directed agricultural operations, while the latter were actually cultivators working on the farm land as labourers personally engaged in tilling, sowing and reaping. The former had the right of marriage with the royal families, and some of them, also known as Velirs, were chieftains of some importance.
-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 05:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
This is regarding references provided for this sentence:
Extolled in Sangam literature for their charity and truthfulness, they were the ancestors and head of the modern Tamil Veḷḷālar caste. [1] [2] [3] [4]
I went thru cited page(s) for the first three references. They describe the life and times of Velirs. Did not find them saying the Velirs are ancestors of current Vellalar community. The first reference (in the cited pages 52-53) mentions the homophones of Velirs and phonemic relationship of belluru (Kannada), vellalan (Tamil) and vellalar (Malayalam). It does not say Velirs are ancestors of Vellalars. The second reference, "Heritage of Tamils" says only this on the Velir in page 269: "They were called Ulavar. Yerin valnar and Kalamar. Apart from them there was a class of landlords who employed others to work on their fields. They were known as Uluvittanpar. The most important among these landlords were the 'Velir' or the chieftains of the agricultural population". This book does not mention the Vellalars. The third reference, "Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India" from page 63 to 67 describes the times of Cholas and Pandyas with a Pandya importing and settling 48,000 good families from Kanchipuram into Pandya land, and further describes the Nankudi Velir who lived in 14 villages Srivaikunham Taluk. The book does say the Velir are ancestors of Vellalars. For the fourth reference "The early history of the Vellar Basin" I was not able to view the cited page 21.
Rajkris, please reproduce sentences verbatim from the given references where the authors say Velirs are ancestors of the current Vellalar community.
Thanks.-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
References
Fairservis
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is regarding Iravatham Mahadevan source used in the introductory sentence:
The Vēḷir ([வேளிர்] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup ( help)) were a royal house of minor dynastic kings and aristocratic chieftains in Tamilakam in the early historic period of South India. [1] [2]
Iravatham Mahadevan is again used as a source for this sentence in the History section:
According to Tamil tradition & scholars, the Velirs came to south from the city of Dwarka in north India under the leadership of the Vedic sage Agastya just after the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization and might belong to the Yadu Kshatriya clan. [1] [3] [4] However, it is noted that they were described as Aryan immigrants from northern part of India who might be a part of earlier Kuru Kingdom civilization that flourished in North India. [5]
Rajkris, as pointed out to you earlier on my talk page, the paper by Iravatham Mahadevan does not refer to the current Vellalar community. The terms Ventar-Velir-Velalar were used for land-owning classes or chieftains, that's all. Hope that is not too hard to understand even now. It is not correct to use Mahadevan's quote partially. Change the sentence to the full quote: "The Ventar-Velir-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an Indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry". If you wish to prove the current Vellalar community descended from the Velir, there is a lot more research you need to do, in order to provide appropriate citations.
You have used the intro source (Mahadevan's paper) as a reference in history section again, to say they "might belong to Yadu Kshatriya clan". That is incorrect. Read the page you cited again (page 16). The term Kshatriya is not used. So delete the word "Kshatriya" and quote properly from the source. Read carefully what Mahadevan says (on page 16) says "..it is more plausible to assume that the Yadavas were the Aryanised descendants of an original non-Aryan people than to consider the Tamil Velir to have descended from the Indo-Aryan speaking Yadavas. As M. Raghavaiyangar (2004: 27), has pointed out vel, means ‘one who performs a sacrifice’ (namely a ‘priest’). The Agastya legend itself can be re-interpreted as non-Aryan and Dravidian even in origin and pertaining to the Indus Civilisation."
-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
References
The Ventar - Velir - Vellalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history
The Velirs of recorded history had their most famous king in Nannan or Nandan, who was also the greatest king of the Mushika or Kolathiri or Chirakkal Royal Family, for both the Nannans are one and the same. The Nannan referred to in the only recorded Sangam Period of Tamil literature of 400 BC (?1600 BC?) to 400 AD was the then Velir King and had his capital at Ezhimala which was the capital of the Mushika Family for several centuries. Could anybody add links to articles that throws more light on the Velirs and the Mushika being the same or at least related to each other? I am adding links that I think are pertinent in the Main article.
Sources: 1. Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar 2. Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages 3. Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. 4. The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami - Vellalas - 1954 - 166 pages 5. Peoples of India - Page 29 by William Harlen Gilbert - Ethnology - 1944 - 86 pages
Irungkovel, Ma-Vel Ewi are all vellalars "The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago By V. Kanakasabhai".
Redirecting page to Vellalars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayank12 ( talk • contribs) 17:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey,
Velirs are the chiefs of the Vellalars.
i.e. Velirs were hierarchically above the Vellalars, but VELIRS themselves are not VELLALARS. Velirs are Ayars (in other words Yadavas, descended from the mythical king Yadu)
The Tamil Sangam literature has the final say in all these matters - For e.g. IRUNKOVEL is a shepherd chief (in Tamil Pothuvar) Please read Pattinappalai - line 281 clearly says the Irunkovel is a Shepherd Chief and IRUNKOVEL is not from VELLALAR caste.
Review the references below.
There are more references if you're not convinced. But I'm going with the academic scholars. Mayank12 ( talk) 22:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Velir or Velala tribes"--->Studies in Tamil Literature and History
By V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar [11].
Mayank12 ( talk) 22:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I have a copy of The Hollow Crown by Dirks on my desk right now. Nowhere on page 149 does it support our present statement that "Vēḷir became a title inherited by Veḷḷālar chiefs of the medieval period". Has someone got the page number wrong? - Sitush ( talk) 08:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I've just removed three footnotes from the lead section. We do not include commentary in articles, period, and at least one of these amounts to synthesis/original research. If there is doubt about something then make that doubt explicit in the article (with sources), raise it here on the talk page or insert an inline note using the format <!-- your comment here -->. Another alternative is the {{ clarify}} template, although I doubt that would be appropriate in the present situation. - Sitush ( talk) 08:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
The Journal of Tamil Studies is not often cited in papers hosted at JSTOR but I have no reason (yet!) to consider it unreliable. A lot of such journals are in fact unreliable - for example, the rubbish produced under various pseudo-official auspices in Odisha & much of what is written by the one-man band that calls itself the Tamil Arts Academy - but this one may be ok.
There are numerous references to it in our article but they are poor - no author name, no article title etc. Can anyone provide me with a copy of the article(s) that are cited as "International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1970. Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume 2", please? Pages include 185 & 220, so I think we need to see the entire range. - Sitush ( talk) 08:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
This is my proposition for this part:
Ref 9: page 149
[14]: "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."
Ref 10: Encyclopedia of World Cultures page 304
[15]: "There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir."
Ref 11: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015
[16]: "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".
Rajkris ( talk) 22:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
Many scholars dispute velir link to vellalar. certain communities like Muthuraja also claim link to velir word vellalar is derived from water and refers to farmers, velir is derived from spear.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Tamil_Culture_in_Ceylon/Fb4LAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Vellam Page 136 Tamil Culture in Ceylon, M. D. Raghavan · 1971
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Proceedings_of_the_Thirty_First_Internat/fAEUAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=velir Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia Page 1015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scholarone1 ( talk • contribs) 01:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Women_and_Work_in_Precolonial_India/TzxwDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vellalar+vellam&pg=PT102&printsec=frontcover Women and Work in Precolonial India
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Converting_Women/HzlkWtM9IJYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vellalar+vellam&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover Page 62 Converting Women Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India Publisher:Oxford University Press
Please can someone provide copies of the following sources that have recently been added to the article. I am concerned about unintentional misrepresentation due to Rajkris not reading around the pages that are cited and relying on snippet views. (Sorry, Rajkris, but you have a long history of doing this & I'll likely be challenging anything and everything that I cannot see - the alternative is simply to remove the stuff as being seemingly dependent on snippet views). Thanks.
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)- Sitush ( talk) 10:28, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with
a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.
AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.
Try as I have, I can't see where the citations in this edit support the statement. Can we have quotes, please. - Sitush ( talk) 14:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
1. Complete Inscription for Yadu clan(Yaduvamsakethu) freely available on net. No need for google books.
2. Tirukovilur is stronghold of Malayaman clan and not Irunkovel.
Suggest you take time to review resources so that wrong info is not printed.
Thanks, Nittavinoda ( talk) 15:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, responses to that note do not look promising. People can see the site (I still cannot) but are wary of the source. - Sitush ( talk) 01:03, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
This is not a bulk edit. I'll elaborate on the changes. Velman2000 ( talk) 19:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Some factors that need consideration. 1. Professor Dirks; p.149 The Hollow Crown; Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom. It's an extensive research 2. Pallavarayan Ula which refers to the Vellala Malava Princess (Malavas are Yadu Vamshi) 3. Periya Puranam referreing to Kalikamma as Eyar Kon or the Chief of Haiheya (Yadu Vamshi) 4. Jaffna Medieval literature mention Tirukoilur Ruler Vellala Perayiramudaiyan (Tirukoilur is a Velir Malayaman land) 5. Bhupalan - the Chandra Vamsa Chief of Konesar Kalvettu (Bhupala Gottiram is an acknowledged Vellala Gotram in Sri Lanka). 6. Kupaka Nadu Chief part of Jafffna invasion. Kupaka Nadu is the land of Ay Kingdom and Aykula Mahadevi mentioned as Vennir Vellala. 7. The Plough insignia is connected to Balarama in traditions (Prof. Nagaswamy has written on it). 8. Narkudi Vellala traditions. There is a later inscription of Irungolan Pillai.
There are plenty more. Consensus on Velirs as Vellala in mainstream academia is stronger than opposition. The Ganga migration and Ganga Kulam description fits in with the origins in ancient Ganga Kingdoms. If you wish to change, then leave room for these primary sources supported by academic works as well. Velman2000 ( talk) 20:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Request: Stay away from disruptive editing.
First of all, The "ayar" term never denoted konar caste. Because, They were identified as "Idaiyar" cowherding caste in sangam works of Tamil literatures.
Ayar were rulers of ay kingdom during mid and post sangam period. The term "ayar" derieved from sanskrit "Abhira" word. Abhira were the one of the yadhava tribes in ancient India.
Confirm: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=nlnQmHpVSh8C&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
and @ Tamil_selvan34 Please stop disruptive editing. The user (@ Materialscientist) already reverted the konar link of ayar. But you're repeating the same mistakes. It is considered disruptive editing.
Etymologically, there is a big difference between konar and ayar. Ayar were ancient people. As the sources, ayar were pastoralists. If you see these works, you'll get idea what I'm saying. There were 3 types of pastoralists ayar, kovalar, idaiyar. The idaiyar is the main name of your caste "Konar". The sources never meant konar are ayars. Not even idaiyars are ayars. If you've any inscriptional evidences that stresses "idaiyars are ayars", link your caste name with adding reliable references.
1. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_the_Tamils/ALUvDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ayar+and+idaiyar&pg=PA372&printsec=frontcover 2. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Dalits_and_the_Democratic_Revolution/leuICwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ayar+and+idaiyar&pg=PT31&printsec=frontcover
Ayars were one of the velir line of kings like irunkovel. Neither konar and idaiyar. Rangasecular ( talk) 03:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Please read section 18 from below book Periya Puranam A Tamil Classic On the Great Saiva Saints of South India https://www.google.com/books/edition/Periya_Puranam/n9TVDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Idayar+Aayar&pg=PT489&printsec=frontcover
Please read page 117 Idaiyar is derived from ayar and are synonyms Kongu Nadu, a History Up to A.D. 1400 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kongu_Nadu_a_History_Up_to_A_D_1400/WTRuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=ayar
Please read page 161 Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms Journal of Tamil Studies https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Tamil_Studies/ZjoRAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=aayars+idaiyar&dq=aayars+idaiyar&printsec=frontcover
Page 41 Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms Caṅka ilakkiyattil Āyar https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca%E1%B9%85ka_ilakkiyattil_%C4%80yar/08W5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=idaiyan+ayar&dq=idaiyan+ayar&printsec=frontcover — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanaman 99 ( talk • contribs) 23:38, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Dear Rangasecular, you can edit as you wish but kindly consider the books provided. Wishing you all the best for your edits.
Respectfully
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanaman 99 ( talk • contribs) 21:25, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Greetings to you as well !! Two references provided
Periya Puranam A Tamil Classic On the Great Saiva Saints of South India - This is tamil literature source and authentic, https://www.google.com/books/edition/Periya_Puranam/n9TVDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Idayar+Aayar&pg=PT489&printsec=frontcover
Caṅka ilakkiyattil Āyar ( Sangam Literature ) - Sangam tamil literature is the most authentic source.As per tamil literature Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca%E1%B9%85ka_ilakkiyattil_%C4%80yar/08W5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=idaiyan+ayar&dq=idaiyan+ayar&printsec=frontcover
All references provided are Reliable sources as per wikipedia
Any how, take care and wish you good luck
Vanaman 99 (
talk) 01:20, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Read WP:OR before you continue disruptive editing. Vandalism is fun till you get blocked for editing further.
@ Scholarone1 Hi mate, Glad to see you're interested in Velir topic. You have submitted 3 sources which doesn't even have any backgrounds and authenticity. The first one 1 says they were landowners. The second one 2 says their pov. Although, that source is unreliable. The third one 3 says nothing useful for this article. I can't even see who is the author of those sources. None of them supports your claims.
If you personally disagree with reliable sources, those historians might be mistaken. Lol! Rangasecular ( talk) 17:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
@ Peruvan I'm not sure why you felt the need to delete the image? Surely an image isn't Caste POV. Din oz1 (chat?) 18:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
@ sitush - we need investigation for users here. clearly seem to be manipulating resources.
Sitush is the senior admin who edited this article and questioned the addition of vellalar in velir article. It appears that such experienced edits have been reverted with out concensus. Totally againt Wikipedia:Consensus , Neutral_point_of_view and Wikipedia:Verifiability — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.106.214 ( talk) 01:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
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Velirs are believed to be descendants of Yadu [1] - today the descendants of Yadu are called Yadavas (also Ahirs, Konars, Idaiyar, Gowda, Gollas)
Not a single dynasty record(s) according to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers show any linkage between Velirs and Vellalars. According to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers Vel-Ay, Mal-Vel-Ay are Ay Kings belonging to Ayar Community.
According to Pivot Politics: Changing Cultural Identities in Early State Formation Processes Paperback – 1994 by Martin Van Bakel Renee Hagestenijn Pieter Van De Velde, it states that Velirs are segmentary lineages of Yadavas (there is no mention of Vellalars or any linkage to Vellalars).
According to Neolithic Cattle-Keepers of South India: A Study of the Deccan Ashmounds. F. R. Allchin Ayars and Velirs are Cattle-keepers who rose to the level of petty chieftains.
Pattinappalai clearly states that velir King Irunkovel belongs to Shepherd race.
If Velirs = Vellalars, why would someone describe the hierarchical structure Ventar - Velir - Vellalar separately? If Velirs = Vellalars, thenn either the word Vellalar or Velir would have been omitted / because it would be redundant. It is clear from the hierarchy structure VELIRS ARE NOT VELLALARS and vice-versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 ( talk) 20:42, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
I sincerely hope that those who contribute to Wikipedia research history of Ay Kings and Velirs are clear about the history of Velirs.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 ( talk) 18:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
References
Rajkris, I went thru the book by Hockings (the only new reference you provided in the Vellalar article). The book is not available for viewing on google books, so doing a copy-paste for you (reproducing parts of page numbers you quoted).
Page 303:
The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with
Page 304:
a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.
Most Vellala subcastes share broadly similar origin myths that stress their links with the soil as agriculturists (as contrasted with artisans), their origin in the Ganga (Gangetic valley) and migration from northern to southern India during the distant past, and their close relationship with the three ancient Tamil dynasties — Chera, Chola, and Pan dya — in spite of the Vellalas' ineligibility for kingship. There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir., the earliest references are found in the sangam literature (first to third century AD). Until about the fourteenth century AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.
[…] Depending on the region, the Vellala may be the dominant caste, may share dominance with another caste, or may be a minority. In villages along the river basins, where wet rice cultivation is prominent, the dominant caste is often Vellala (of either category). Within a village, each Vellala subcaste, as indeed every subcaste, tends to live in a separate street. In larger villages and towns, this pattern gets blurred....
Note that Paul Hockings does not provide the literary and archaeological evidences, which link "core Vellala subcastes" with velir. Hockings mentioned Vellalar subcastes, even described their living pattern, yet Hockings does not state which are "core Vellala subcastes". Hockings notes Vellalars are heterogeneous, with varying criteria defining them. Yet instead of providing actual evidence linking them to Velir, he goes on (instead), to refer to sangam literature, assuming Sangam period Velirs and later-day Vellalars are the same. To handle this and other modern historians who merely repeat the Vellalar-Velir connection, made by medieval / modern historians, am pasting content from some sources (not available on google books) so you can also read them.-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 04:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
The content below has been taken from 3 sources all of which describe the same points.
Evidence of a broad dual division of society is provided by the references to the Cānrōr or Uyarndōr and the Iḷicinar. The position of dominance was occupied by the chiefs/kings and the landed local elite (Velir, Kilavan or Kilan, talaivan, entai) collectively referred to as Uyarndōr and Cānrōr (the superior ones) while the lower category generally termed as Iḷicinar were engaged in various 'inferior' activities or subsistence production. It is only in the medieval commentaries on Sangam works that references to the superior Velalas (land owning group) and inferior Velala (cultivators) occur together with the Velir chiefs as the dominant land owning groups controlling fairly large areas of agricultural land indicating that stratification based on land distribution and control was believed to have existed even in this early period. The Velir are described in the Sangam works as lesser chiefs, pastoral-cum-agricultural, but next in importance only to the Vendor as a dominant socio-political group and as patrons of the Tamil poets.
-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 05:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
Content below is quoted from 2 source (both are by same author and quote the same sentences).
The Velalas, especially the agriculturists, were a very important limb of society. Nachchinarkkiniyar recognizes two types of Velalas; the superior and the inferior. The superior Velalas owned land and directed agricultural operations, while the latter were actually cultivators working on the farm land as labourers personally engaged in tilling, sowing and reaping. The former had the right of marriage with the royal families, and some of them, also known as Velirs, were chieftains of some importance.
-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 05:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
This is regarding references provided for this sentence:
Extolled in Sangam literature for their charity and truthfulness, they were the ancestors and head of the modern Tamil Veḷḷālar caste. [1] [2] [3] [4]
I went thru cited page(s) for the first three references. They describe the life and times of Velirs. Did not find them saying the Velirs are ancestors of current Vellalar community. The first reference (in the cited pages 52-53) mentions the homophones of Velirs and phonemic relationship of belluru (Kannada), vellalan (Tamil) and vellalar (Malayalam). It does not say Velirs are ancestors of Vellalars. The second reference, "Heritage of Tamils" says only this on the Velir in page 269: "They were called Ulavar. Yerin valnar and Kalamar. Apart from them there was a class of landlords who employed others to work on their fields. They were known as Uluvittanpar. The most important among these landlords were the 'Velir' or the chieftains of the agricultural population". This book does not mention the Vellalars. The third reference, "Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India" from page 63 to 67 describes the times of Cholas and Pandyas with a Pandya importing and settling 48,000 good families from Kanchipuram into Pandya land, and further describes the Nankudi Velir who lived in 14 villages Srivaikunham Taluk. The book does say the Velir are ancestors of Vellalars. For the fourth reference "The early history of the Vellar Basin" I was not able to view the cited page 21.
Rajkris, please reproduce sentences verbatim from the given references where the authors say Velirs are ancestors of the current Vellalar community.
Thanks.-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
References
Fairservis
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is regarding Iravatham Mahadevan source used in the introductory sentence:
The Vēḷir ([வேளிர்] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup ( help)) were a royal house of minor dynastic kings and aristocratic chieftains in Tamilakam in the early historic period of South India. [1] [2]
Iravatham Mahadevan is again used as a source for this sentence in the History section:
According to Tamil tradition & scholars, the Velirs came to south from the city of Dwarka in north India under the leadership of the Vedic sage Agastya just after the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization and might belong to the Yadu Kshatriya clan. [1] [3] [4] However, it is noted that they were described as Aryan immigrants from northern part of India who might be a part of earlier Kuru Kingdom civilization that flourished in North India. [5]
Rajkris, as pointed out to you earlier on my talk page, the paper by Iravatham Mahadevan does not refer to the current Vellalar community. The terms Ventar-Velir-Velalar were used for land-owning classes or chieftains, that's all. Hope that is not too hard to understand even now. It is not correct to use Mahadevan's quote partially. Change the sentence to the full quote: "The Ventar-Velir-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an Indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry". If you wish to prove the current Vellalar community descended from the Velir, there is a lot more research you need to do, in order to provide appropriate citations.
You have used the intro source (Mahadevan's paper) as a reference in history section again, to say they "might belong to Yadu Kshatriya clan". That is incorrect. Read the page you cited again (page 16). The term Kshatriya is not used. So delete the word "Kshatriya" and quote properly from the source. Read carefully what Mahadevan says (on page 16) says "..it is more plausible to assume that the Yadavas were the Aryanised descendants of an original non-Aryan people than to consider the Tamil Velir to have descended from the Indo-Aryan speaking Yadavas. As M. Raghavaiyangar (2004: 27), has pointed out vel, means ‘one who performs a sacrifice’ (namely a ‘priest’). The Agastya legend itself can be re-interpreted as non-Aryan and Dravidian even in origin and pertaining to the Indus Civilisation."
-- Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] ( talk) 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra
References
The Ventar - Velir - Vellalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history
The Velirs of recorded history had their most famous king in Nannan or Nandan, who was also the greatest king of the Mushika or Kolathiri or Chirakkal Royal Family, for both the Nannans are one and the same. The Nannan referred to in the only recorded Sangam Period of Tamil literature of 400 BC (?1600 BC?) to 400 AD was the then Velir King and had his capital at Ezhimala which was the capital of the Mushika Family for several centuries. Could anybody add links to articles that throws more light on the Velirs and the Mushika being the same or at least related to each other? I am adding links that I think are pertinent in the Main article.
Sources: 1. Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar 2. Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages 3. Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. 4. The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami - Vellalas - 1954 - 166 pages 5. Peoples of India - Page 29 by William Harlen Gilbert - Ethnology - 1944 - 86 pages
Irungkovel, Ma-Vel Ewi are all vellalars "The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago By V. Kanakasabhai".
Redirecting page to Vellalars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayank12 ( talk • contribs) 17:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey,
Velirs are the chiefs of the Vellalars.
i.e. Velirs were hierarchically above the Vellalars, but VELIRS themselves are not VELLALARS. Velirs are Ayars (in other words Yadavas, descended from the mythical king Yadu)
The Tamil Sangam literature has the final say in all these matters - For e.g. IRUNKOVEL is a shepherd chief (in Tamil Pothuvar) Please read Pattinappalai - line 281 clearly says the Irunkovel is a Shepherd Chief and IRUNKOVEL is not from VELLALAR caste.
Review the references below.
There are more references if you're not convinced. But I'm going with the academic scholars. Mayank12 ( talk) 22:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Velir or Velala tribes"--->Studies in Tamil Literature and History
By V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar [11].
Mayank12 ( talk) 22:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I have a copy of The Hollow Crown by Dirks on my desk right now. Nowhere on page 149 does it support our present statement that "Vēḷir became a title inherited by Veḷḷālar chiefs of the medieval period". Has someone got the page number wrong? - Sitush ( talk) 08:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I've just removed three footnotes from the lead section. We do not include commentary in articles, period, and at least one of these amounts to synthesis/original research. If there is doubt about something then make that doubt explicit in the article (with sources), raise it here on the talk page or insert an inline note using the format <!-- your comment here -->. Another alternative is the {{ clarify}} template, although I doubt that would be appropriate in the present situation. - Sitush ( talk) 08:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
The Journal of Tamil Studies is not often cited in papers hosted at JSTOR but I have no reason (yet!) to consider it unreliable. A lot of such journals are in fact unreliable - for example, the rubbish produced under various pseudo-official auspices in Odisha & much of what is written by the one-man band that calls itself the Tamil Arts Academy - but this one may be ok.
There are numerous references to it in our article but they are poor - no author name, no article title etc. Can anyone provide me with a copy of the article(s) that are cited as "International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1970. Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume 2", please? Pages include 185 & 220, so I think we need to see the entire range. - Sitush ( talk) 08:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
This is my proposition for this part:
Ref 9: page 149
[14]: "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."
Ref 10: Encyclopedia of World Cultures page 304
[15]: "There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir."
Ref 11: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015
[16]: "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".
Rajkris ( talk) 22:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
Many scholars dispute velir link to vellalar. certain communities like Muthuraja also claim link to velir word vellalar is derived from water and refers to farmers, velir is derived from spear.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Tamil_Culture_in_Ceylon/Fb4LAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Vellam Page 136 Tamil Culture in Ceylon, M. D. Raghavan · 1971
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Proceedings_of_the_Thirty_First_Internat/fAEUAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=velir Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia Page 1015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scholarone1 ( talk • contribs) 01:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Women_and_Work_in_Precolonial_India/TzxwDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vellalar+vellam&pg=PT102&printsec=frontcover Women and Work in Precolonial India
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Converting_Women/HzlkWtM9IJYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vellalar+vellam&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover Page 62 Converting Women Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India Publisher:Oxford University Press
Please can someone provide copies of the following sources that have recently been added to the article. I am concerned about unintentional misrepresentation due to Rajkris not reading around the pages that are cited and relying on snippet views. (Sorry, Rajkris, but you have a long history of doing this & I'll likely be challenging anything and everything that I cannot see - the alternative is simply to remove the stuff as being seemingly dependent on snippet views). Thanks.
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)- Sitush ( talk) 10:28, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with
a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.
AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.
Try as I have, I can't see where the citations in this edit support the statement. Can we have quotes, please. - Sitush ( talk) 14:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
1. Complete Inscription for Yadu clan(Yaduvamsakethu) freely available on net. No need for google books.
2. Tirukovilur is stronghold of Malayaman clan and not Irunkovel.
Suggest you take time to review resources so that wrong info is not printed.
Thanks, Nittavinoda ( talk) 15:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, responses to that note do not look promising. People can see the site (I still cannot) but are wary of the source. - Sitush ( talk) 01:03, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
This is not a bulk edit. I'll elaborate on the changes. Velman2000 ( talk) 19:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Some factors that need consideration. 1. Professor Dirks; p.149 The Hollow Crown; Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom. It's an extensive research 2. Pallavarayan Ula which refers to the Vellala Malava Princess (Malavas are Yadu Vamshi) 3. Periya Puranam referreing to Kalikamma as Eyar Kon or the Chief of Haiheya (Yadu Vamshi) 4. Jaffna Medieval literature mention Tirukoilur Ruler Vellala Perayiramudaiyan (Tirukoilur is a Velir Malayaman land) 5. Bhupalan - the Chandra Vamsa Chief of Konesar Kalvettu (Bhupala Gottiram is an acknowledged Vellala Gotram in Sri Lanka). 6. Kupaka Nadu Chief part of Jafffna invasion. Kupaka Nadu is the land of Ay Kingdom and Aykula Mahadevi mentioned as Vennir Vellala. 7. The Plough insignia is connected to Balarama in traditions (Prof. Nagaswamy has written on it). 8. Narkudi Vellala traditions. There is a later inscription of Irungolan Pillai.
There are plenty more. Consensus on Velirs as Vellala in mainstream academia is stronger than opposition. The Ganga migration and Ganga Kulam description fits in with the origins in ancient Ganga Kingdoms. If you wish to change, then leave room for these primary sources supported by academic works as well. Velman2000 ( talk) 20:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Request: Stay away from disruptive editing.
First of all, The "ayar" term never denoted konar caste. Because, They were identified as "Idaiyar" cowherding caste in sangam works of Tamil literatures.
Ayar were rulers of ay kingdom during mid and post sangam period. The term "ayar" derieved from sanskrit "Abhira" word. Abhira were the one of the yadhava tribes in ancient India.
Confirm: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=nlnQmHpVSh8C&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
and @ Tamil_selvan34 Please stop disruptive editing. The user (@ Materialscientist) already reverted the konar link of ayar. But you're repeating the same mistakes. It is considered disruptive editing.
Etymologically, there is a big difference between konar and ayar. Ayar were ancient people. As the sources, ayar were pastoralists. If you see these works, you'll get idea what I'm saying. There were 3 types of pastoralists ayar, kovalar, idaiyar. The idaiyar is the main name of your caste "Konar". The sources never meant konar are ayars. Not even idaiyars are ayars. If you've any inscriptional evidences that stresses "idaiyars are ayars", link your caste name with adding reliable references.
1. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_the_Tamils/ALUvDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ayar+and+idaiyar&pg=PA372&printsec=frontcover 2. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Dalits_and_the_Democratic_Revolution/leuICwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ayar+and+idaiyar&pg=PT31&printsec=frontcover
Ayars were one of the velir line of kings like irunkovel. Neither konar and idaiyar. Rangasecular ( talk) 03:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Please read section 18 from below book Periya Puranam A Tamil Classic On the Great Saiva Saints of South India https://www.google.com/books/edition/Periya_Puranam/n9TVDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Idayar+Aayar&pg=PT489&printsec=frontcover
Please read page 117 Idaiyar is derived from ayar and are synonyms Kongu Nadu, a History Up to A.D. 1400 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kongu_Nadu_a_History_Up_to_A_D_1400/WTRuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=ayar
Please read page 161 Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms Journal of Tamil Studies https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Tamil_Studies/ZjoRAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=aayars+idaiyar&dq=aayars+idaiyar&printsec=frontcover
Page 41 Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms Caṅka ilakkiyattil Āyar https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca%E1%B9%85ka_ilakkiyattil_%C4%80yar/08W5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=idaiyan+ayar&dq=idaiyan+ayar&printsec=frontcover — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanaman 99 ( talk • contribs) 23:38, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Dear Rangasecular, you can edit as you wish but kindly consider the books provided. Wishing you all the best for your edits.
Respectfully
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanaman 99 ( talk • contribs) 21:25, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Greetings to you as well !! Two references provided
Periya Puranam A Tamil Classic On the Great Saiva Saints of South India - This is tamil literature source and authentic, https://www.google.com/books/edition/Periya_Puranam/n9TVDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Idayar+Aayar&pg=PT489&printsec=frontcover
Caṅka ilakkiyattil Āyar ( Sangam Literature ) - Sangam tamil literature is the most authentic source.As per tamil literature Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca%E1%B9%85ka_ilakkiyattil_%C4%80yar/08W5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=idaiyan+ayar&dq=idaiyan+ayar&printsec=frontcover
All references provided are Reliable sources as per wikipedia
Any how, take care and wish you good luck
Vanaman 99 (
talk) 01:20, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Read WP:OR before you continue disruptive editing. Vandalism is fun till you get blocked for editing further.
@ Scholarone1 Hi mate, Glad to see you're interested in Velir topic. You have submitted 3 sources which doesn't even have any backgrounds and authenticity. The first one 1 says they were landowners. The second one 2 says their pov. Although, that source is unreliable. The third one 3 says nothing useful for this article. I can't even see who is the author of those sources. None of them supports your claims.
If you personally disagree with reliable sources, those historians might be mistaken. Lol! Rangasecular ( talk) 17:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
@ Peruvan I'm not sure why you felt the need to delete the image? Surely an image isn't Caste POV. Din oz1 (chat?) 18:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
@ sitush - we need investigation for users here. clearly seem to be manipulating resources.
Sitush is the senior admin who edited this article and questioned the addition of vellalar in velir article. It appears that such experienced edits have been reverted with out concensus. Totally againt Wikipedia:Consensus , Neutral_point_of_view and Wikipedia:Verifiability — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.106.214 ( talk) 01:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)