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I am trying to add a link to my little idea, FeedlotRadio.com, to raise animals better the same way you can plants, with music, and silence the vegan protest (ideally).
For some reason, this novel idea is being rejected outright every time I try to add the link. It was suggested I discuss it here, so I am. I guess I didn't think there'd be an issue, and I'm surprised it wouldn't be included when so many redundant pro-veganism sites are.
It was suggested that I try to post here, so I am. What's wrong with linking to this? Repeat2341 08:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps vegetarians would not like to be associated with raising animals in this way, because the gist of being a vegetarian is that we are trying to voice our choices by not consuming animal products at all- therefore there is no "better way" to raise animals who are only bred and kept for future sale as food.
Your mind is sorta going that direction of thinking for the better - what would really help is to convince people that the land could be better used for organic farming. Or Eco tourism.
Hope that helps09:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)RR Portland Oregon 24.21.192.115 ( talk) 09:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Some idiot put a picture of meat in this article with a caption that read "meat, a vegetarian food". I've deleted the picture but i don't know how to go about putting a new one one up. I could probably learn how to do it but i'd need permission.
On other issues, yes i agree that it should be semi-protected (i assume that means that edits are moderated?. It will stop ignorant morons doing stuff like the one i mentioned above.
In answer to the cowardly person who posted before me without signing thier name, the health benifits are substantial but not a major factor in most vegetarian's choices to become one. The immorality is a much larger factor (forgive me if i'm wrong for some of you). We have a lesser risk of heart disease and bowel cancer, amongst other illnesses. Statisitically we have a higher lifespan than meat eaters. Yes, it is true that people who eat fish but no meat do live longer than us. But it also true that the inuits (the ones that eat a traditional diet)who eat only meat and fish have the shortest life span. As for proteins, i expect you to do some research as your knowledge of biological chemistry is laughable. All proteins are made out of 20 amino acids, an animal protien e.g. myosin and a plant protein could have a very similar primary structures, which is all that matters nutrition wise, it wouldn't matter if they had different structures and functions. There can be no arguments about protein quality as there isn't much difference in amino acids overall. As long as you eat pulses and grains you will have all the proteins your body will ever need. Just a thought, the best source of essential fatty acids are lino floor tiles as they are made up of a polymer, would you want to eat them?
The bit about herbivores at the start should stay. Some people refer to mistakedly herbivores as vegetarians. It's quite funny really because it would mean that a mouse doesn't eat meat becuase it chose not to. :)A vegetarian chooses not to eat meat and a herbivore eats no animal products by instinct. In answer to the question at the bottom, all humans are omnivores apart from vegans as veggies eat eggs and/or dairy products.
As for all 11 year old wannabe vegetarian, 11 isn't too young at all (i became one when i was 8 and have heard of younger children doing this as well). Do whatever you want, it doesn't matter what your parents think, at 11 they are only there to guide you. Tell them the pro's of vegetarianism, if that doesn't work refuse to eat anything with meat in it. Don't worry about starving or having malnutition, they'll probably give in after a week or two. Sci_fi_rocks 22:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Fish such as cod or tuna contains only about 25mg of cholesterol (good idea). Small amounts of cholesterol from fish WILL reduce your total cholesterol intake instead of eating pig meat, KFC, or Mcd's. I personally like cod. A vegetarian diet can be or actually is a very risky behavior by having a severe protein deficiency.
Brown rice is a inherently poor source of protein. I consider brown rice a good source of complex carbs. Nice try though. Vegetarains point to red meat. I point to fish!!! Vegetarains eating behavior has nothing to do for a health benefit. Fish, egg whites, non-fat milk, and skinless turkey breast are healthy sources of high quality protein. Soy, on the other hand may cause cancer, allergies, and birth defects which most vegetarians say, "soy is the best?"
The unsourced opinions claim a "Vegetarian Diet" has a significant advantage? Wikipedia is not a promo ad for people to become Vegetarians.
Adding original research to Wikipedia is not acceptable. If you want to avoid an "edit war" read Wikipedia's policies. -- Just an onlooker 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
it is a proven fact that if you want to be perfectly fit and healthy you need to eat meat and other animal products domestic farm animals are here to serve humans that is why they exist Bouse23 16:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
"These sentences above written by "David Olivier" are unsourced, opinions, and pure speculation."
Notice how David FAILS at every level to explain what plant sources equal animal sources of proteins.
Soy is the highest quality plant protein and it is very risky to eat. All other plant sources of protein are lower than soy. So what is left to eat for a true vegetarian? Notice how I have been asking this same question for about a week now and eveybody FAILS to give me a VALID ANSWER! David is a perfect example that vegetarians falsely believe in their mind that plant sources of protein are equal to animal sources of protein. David merely makes my info even more valid now than ever! Just an onlooker 00:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The reference you provided clearer points to protein content. The quality of protein is about protein value not protein content.
The table is unscientific. It only explains about protein content. It has nothing at all to do with protein content. Go to the vegetarian article and click on the links that explain about protein value. Please provide links about protein quality.
Protein from vegetable sources such as peanut butter (listed in the unscientific table about protein content) is actually lower than fish animal protein.
Here is some info about protein quality. It is about protein value not protein content.
Some or maybe even most vegetarians have an "extreme false belief" that protein content is the same as protein quality.
Some or most vegetarians do not draw the line between the different grades of protein quality and protein content. Just an onlooker 18:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I said some or most. If you prefer I should clarifiy and say just some have a "false belief"... Happy now?
A quick glance by most who disagree with me on this talk page continue to point to a false belief about protein content in their references that they continue to tout as proof showing the vegetable protein is equal to animal. When I talk about vegetarian diet I am pointing to a strict vegetarain diet that eats egg and dairy occasionally. People who consider themselves true vegetarians do not eat any meat, dairy, or eggs, period!
Just an onlooker 19:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
An average vegetarian diet is not referenced in the link I provided. Your statement obfuscates the facts. According to some vegetarians who I have spoken to, they believe plant protein is equal to animal. Some (which I am not going to say who) point to protein content rather than protein quality. When some (not most) point to protein content they can develop a protein deficiency by following their false belief in their mind. Just an onlooker 20:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Some assume (which I am not going to name who) vegetarians always eat egg and dairy. Nothing could be further from the truth! Some vegetarians do not eat egg and some vegetarians do not eat dairy products. This type of eating behavior can sometimes cause a protein deficiency. Also, a quick glance at references about protein content on pro vegetarian websites do not mention anything about protein quality. This further misinforms the public and many many vegetarians. They always point to protein content. I hold other statements (which I am not going to point to who) to be falsehoods. Thanks, Just an onlooker 21:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, guys, " the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" or reality. There is zero point debating on talk page trying to convice other side that vegetarian diet is deficient/sufficient. Just add content with proper source and it doesn't matter. This article contain too many unverifiable statements. And citing POV or facts from advocacy group is not acceptable for encyrcropedia. Therefore, I will add citation needed and leave it for while. Secondly, this apply to just on looker. If you want to contribute, explaing what it mean by "quality" in term of protein would clear thing up. Then adding list of type of protein as well as list of food (vegetables, milk, egg, meat and so on) which can provide these different protein type help. You don't have to convince anyone. All you have to do is to demonstrate that your source are verifiable as defined by wikipedia. Vapour
Oh, and this is to Mig77. As of "there is right level of fat and/or cholesterol", you can google or just look at wikipedia articles on fat and cholesterol. As of optimal diet, read the section of criticism, where I quoted from peer reviewed articles from academic journal. Note that Adventist studies are already incoroporated into two meta studies I quoted. These sutides clearly support my "sensible rule of thumb" This "insight" is pretty much "duh" for anyone with common sense. As of lot of fat vegetarian Hindu in Sri Lanka, I'm sorry I can't pay you to go there. But did you know that human body weight is determined by the calories input/output so one can easily become fat if one overeat on rice or nun bread? Vapour
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth or reality."
Articles are forked for a reason. The Vegetarianism article is very long, and the Vegetarianism in Buddhism article is very detailed, so it is correct to maintain it as a fork and link to it in the article. In fact, ideally, the vegetarianism article should be forked more, since it's currently 49KB with over 30 sections. Please keep additions on the topic of Buddhism in the appropriate article. Thanks, Davidjk ( msg+ edits) 09:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
under this small section, the article says, "There are numerous Pali Tri Pitaka text showing Buddha ate food." should it read "meat" instead of "food?" larz ( talk) 22:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems that due to the relentless efforts of one or two people, that section has become filled with unacceptable statements, such as the following.
"both vegetarian and vegan advocacy groups invariably promote their diet as healthy while claiming that the diet which includes meat and/or fish is inherently unhealthy"
There are certainly many AR groups (such as the Veggie Pride, for instance) that are vegetarian/vegan advocates but who do not claim that meat or fish is inhernently unhealthy. That foregoing animal flesh (and byproducts) is equivalently healthy is enough for many to make an ethical argument in favour of refusing to participate in the slaughter of animals.
"Critics argue that these groups are engaging in scientific misrepresentation in direct opposition to public interest"
What critics? How can such a blatantly POV statement be included without qualification in a WP article?
"A common misconception is that vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal sources such as fish, eggs and dairy is inherently a higher biological value protein according to the Biological Value method of testing protein quality than protein obtained from vegetable sources such as soy."
Weasel words, unsupported statements, unreliable references, absurd statements (about the "inherently higher biological values", see above.
David Olivier 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't have an electronic reference right now, but my biology textbook states that vegetable protein is classified as 'incomplete' and meat protein is 'complete'. This refers to the different types of amino acids in the proteins. Vegetable proteins have less varieties of amino acids in the proteins than meat. This is what 'protein quality' is refering to. -- Xfcanadian 22:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It says "However, the Bhagavad Gita also states that killing an animal as an offering to Brahman gives this animal's soul a chance to gain a human body;"- No it doesnt. Can you give me the reference? Bhagvad Gita doesnt say anything about animal sacrifice anywhere. The reference given in next line is about Human bodies.
Seems to me this part was written by someone trying to find loopholes in Gita that allow meat eating. Unless proper reference, with the line that quotes that the Gita allows animal sacrifice is given, I might have to raise NPOV.
The user by the name of Xfcanadian inaccurately stated that vegetable protein is incomplete; however, soy protein is an excellent example of a complete protein. Reading this article and the arguments going on throughout the talk page, I noticed numerous inaccuracies. Vegetarianism has long been shown to be healthier and more beneficial, so it is sad that people still choose to ignore that.
This is probably a stupid question and is probably already answered somewhere on here, but do vegetarians count fish as meat not to eat or not? I know on another part of this discussion page, people are talking about eating fish, so does that mean vegetarians will?
Like I said, this is probably already answered somewhere else, but if you could answer this here, I'd really appreciate it. Future...Destination 00:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Some vegetarians eat fish. And still do consider themselves "vegetarians". Others have a different opinion. "Vegetable" is just a word. In English. Cultures define words. A culture has the power the define the word they use for "vegetables" to include fish. This is not a matter of "facts" about vegetables and fish -- but rather a question about word usages. Dictionaries just record the way people use words. The only "fact" here that we can be pretty sure of is the most westerners don't think a fish is a vegetable. But they may also not think a fish is entirely "meat", either. And what do various other cultures actually think? They might have an even stronger concept of fish not being "meat", even though they don't really think it is a "vegetable" either -- and so reasonably include it in a "non-meat" diet pattern (which others might choose to label "vegetarian"). The most correct, broad definition of Vegetarian would be: people who tend avoid at least some meat at least some of the time... But then, what would that leave people to argue about? 69.87.193.120 15:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the reputable dictionary claim about animal derived foods this means a Vegie should not eat milk, butter Cheese. Lets face it westerners predominatly Americans try and hijack a subject and argue on almost every page for the AMERICANISATION of the article. Vegis in India China and Japan eat Fish and Eggs. They are more populous yet quieter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.36.75.21 ( talk) 11:50, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." WP:Verifiability
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article." WP:Verifiability
"the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say." WP:OR
Any material in an article MUST come from a reliable source that directly relates that material to the topic (Vegetarianism).
"In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves." Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources
(see also Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Aspects_of_reliability)
"Self-published sources Main article: Wikipedia:Verifiability A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources
So geocities pages, for example, are not good sources.
Mdbrownmsw 21:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
[ rec.food.veg FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS]. Out of date, but interesting to see their approach to the subject. Covers a lot of area covered in WP better than here, so I think we may learn something. (Yes it is probably biased, thats why it is on the talk page and not the main page)-- Mig77 (t) 14:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The religion section of this article is HUGE, in an article that's already extremely long. Are there any objections to starting another article about "Vegetarianism (religious aspects)" and just summarizing the content for this article - MichaelBluejay 10:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Should this be included? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm savidan (talk) (e@) 05:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Viriditas, I'm not sure I understand your problwem with the sentence and ref. Did you read the linked abstract and the ref's quote? Do you have a source to refute the ref? Also, see WP:V. -- Jeandré, 2006-12-20 t19:51z
As a vegetarian speaking here, does the matter of IQ affecting vegetarianism in later life really matter? Shouldn't the study investigate whether a vegetarian diet affects your IQ? - Mitchell Strahan 05:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The section Vegetarianism#famous vegetarians lists Adolf Hitler as vegetarian. However, the article vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler says: "After the war Rudolf Diels (who headed the early Gestapo for a year before narrowly avoiding execution) wrote that Hitler sometimes ate Bavarian Leberknödel (liver dumplings) but only when they were prepared by his photographer friend Heinrich Hoffmann." I've always thought being vegetarian means never eating meat. Have I misunderstood the concept of vegetarianism or should Hitler be removed from that list? -- Danogo 08:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
"While a high-protein diet of vegetables produces a similar effect, the flesh-eating bacteria are discouraged on vegetable matter because of the higher amount of sugar--meat has very little sugar"
The statement states that meat has very little sugar and high protein vegetable foods contain sugar. If that is the case, then such vegetarian diet shouldn't/wouldn't be recommended for diabetics because of its sugar content. So I think either the health aspect of this should be carefully reworded or removed entirely before it leads to misleading decisions. -- Idleguy 07:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Vegetarianism is "the direction" not "the distance" being a vegetarian or a vegan are measures of distance.
nouns with the suffix "ism" are "the act, state, or theory of".
If this is just about the practice of not eating meat, then all the references to "semi" vegetarian have no place here as they have nothing to do with "not consuming meat"
This article is exploring the philosophies, reasons and theories not just the practices to start it with such an off topic statement seems strange.
I welcome a broad open article that explores the theory behind peoples choices and the standards they use. Brucedenney 19:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think most Catholics would tell you that fish isn't meat. So a pescatarian diet would be vegetarian to them. In reality even things like apples contain meat. Maybe the article should be changed to "Vegetarianism is the practice of not consuming animal meat." It doesn't seem very practical to be 100% vegetarian. Even things that would normally be thought of as vegetarian possibly contain rat hair, insects, and who knows what else. Remember when those Strawberry pop tarts were recalled because they contained too much rat? Jecowa 22:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
TYME wrote: Vegetariansim is the practice of eating NO animals. Vegetarianism is _not_ the practice of eating SOME vegetables. Last time I knew, fish and poultry described _animals_. Moreover, to write "Vegetarianism is the practice of not consuming the flesh of any animal (including sea animals in some cases)..." is contradictory. "Not...any" means without exception; "in some cases" is an exception. Through your current description, you have described a far too broad a group of people as vegetarians, which is patently false and offensive to those of us who practice true vegetarianism. And "semivegetarian"?? You have got to be kidding. So, if someone does not have sex on day, on that day are they a "semivirgin"? My mother will be so proud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.244.199 ( talk) 19:24, 1 August 2007
The section on notable vegetarians is just a sentence or so plusa link to a category. Both are laughably incomplete and, IMHO, add very very little the text of the article. I think we should just ditch the section. -- mako ( talk• contribs) 03:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
In Israel there is a whole village ( moshav) of vegetarians. It is called Amirim. Are there similar places anywhere else in the world? -- Amir E. Aharoni 07:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the town of Pushkar, India, is strictly vegetarian. It was when I was there in 1996. There was milk and yoghurt, but no meat or eggs (or alcohol). 76.174.204.234 22:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)anonymous
Hello All, Sorry to see such strife on this topic, (or any), but I noted that in the first paragraph of the article someone has inserted the incorrect statement that the word "vegetarian" comes from "an ancient Native American indian word meaning bad hunter". Tried to edit it out of the article, but having never done so before, couldn't seem to find the way to do so. FYI, and may all be well and filled with compassion for one another. -William Belair
The article claims vegetarianism is about not killing. If that is so then meat from amputation and blood would be allowed. This article covers milk and vegetarianism. I'm sorry to see that it does not address blood and vegetarianism. Meat from animals not killed (died naturally or meat from amputation) is not covered also. Oh and sponges are animals. I knew a vegan who used a natural sponge. Insects are not covered. And vegetarianism is not against killing plants - they are alive too ya know. Anyway, the article is long on claims and counter claims and short on logic and exact use of words. 4.250.168.152 10:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I would argue that the only thing that so called "semi-vegetarian" diets have in relation to vegetarian diets are the name. Ashmoo suggests that they are related because they both "exclude" things. In that case, diabetic diets, allergy based diets, "low fat", "low carb" diets would all be related to vegetarianism. Just because they share some terminology doesn't mean that they are related. Just like a koala bear is not related to the polar bear, except on the most superficial levels. Am I wrong? -- Cpoupart 05:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
The wiktionary defines "misnomer" as 1. A use of a term asserted to be misleading., 2. A term asserted to be widely used incorrectly. and 3. (Wiktionary jargon) A term whose sense in common usage conflicts with a technical sense.
In order: 1) Both pesco-vegetarian and pollo-vegetarian are misleading terms because they create a link to vegetarianism. This in itself is an oxymoron. Vegetarians do not eat fish or chicken, and by doing so, a person is no longer vegetarian. 2) The 'vegetarian' part of both of these terms is misapplied. People often argue that the 'vegetarian' part refers to the consumption of vegetables. That doesn't work with the etymological origins of 'vegetarian' which come from the Latin 'vegetus' (meaning 'lively') not from the English "vegetable". Further, part of any omnivorous diet are vegetables, making the "vegetable" reference redundant. 3) The technical and dictionary definition of "vegetarian" is someone who does not eat the flesh of animals. Saying that someone is a "vegetarian who eats fish" automatically violates the technical definition of 'vegetarian'. -- Cpoupart 05:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with including the Semi-Vegetarian link if it is a popular phrase. Poultry however, is a type of meat, as is pork and beef etc... I don't see how it can be defined otherwise. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 09:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This section lacks sources for every single statement made except one. And the wording is very biased, even in the statement that does have a source. It simply does not feel neutral at all. Weasel words like "generally" and "problematic" don't help either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.84.127.209 ( talk) 17:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
84.72.116.141, in this that 75.84.127.209 is referring to, "generally" is a weasel word because it isn't very specific. You would want to find a source and change "People don't generally care what has to die to fill their stomachs" to "Nintey-three per cent of Americans surveyed don't care what has to die to fill their stomachs. /" "Problematic" is a weasel word because it doesn't say how it is a problem. You would want to find a source and change "Vegetarians are problematic" to "Vegetarians burned down seventeen slaughter houses in 2005. [20]" Jecowa 22:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
This section has a bunch of stuff under the Paleolithic diet that doesn't belong there, such as information about isoflavones in Tofu. It should be reorganized into a section of opposing opinions or something.
I can't see how the Paleolithic diet is related to vegetarianism, as it includes 1/3 meat in it. I deleted the section. 86.133.186.101 18:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Could whoever put this tag in please explain which parts of this section they consider to be "weasel words"? Personally, I think there is a fair equilibrium between pro and con views. -- 84.72.116.141 13:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
This is what the person who added the weasel tag said, "this section has too many of "some feel" without citing soures." This seems to be the statement Idleguy is refering to:
Humans occupy a middle ground between the two; they have no claws and mostly blunt teeth (molars) but also a pair of sharp canine teeth designed for tearing, which some feel is proof of a naturally omnivorous diet (gorillas are herbivorous and have very large canines, though these are at least partly for defensive purposes, while other primates with sharp canines are not strictly herbivorous and will occasionally kill and eat other animals).
Jecowa 22:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it is wrong to leave out the fact that there are other omnivores that drink with their lips apart from humans. Which contradicts the 'animals that drink with lips are natural' herbivores' argument. Halbared 21:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Gnocchi 2 by salsachica.jpg has been nominated for deletion. I think it is a great image. Your input is appreciated. Jecowa 00:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
not that there is anything wrong with it but it looks, specificaly, more like a vegan meal. Perhaps a picture of a plate with some sort of egg and cheese too on it would be better. Blacklobster
The section "Health Concerns" cites two books by John Harvey Kellogg several times. I'm not sure they are reliable sources, given their age, and…well just take a look at the article on him. -- 69.19.14.39 01:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is very Americentric, it's written from an American POV and most of the sources cite are American. Also, the quality of the writing is fairly poor 86.147.169.125 10:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm guessing it's written by mostly Americans, cant blame them for being Americentric. As to the poor writing, feel free to improve it. -- Calibas 02:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me that this article sounds like it was written by vegetarians... which is to be expected, it's WIKIpedia!!, it would be nice to see this article somehow reviewed by those that are Encyclopedic-ally inclined, and not zealously voicing their biases. For one I don't see any "Controversies" section, or even any citing of information regarding vegetarian agenda's. 202.161.87.172 ( talk) 08:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed "pig meat" as it seems to give bias to the article, in the section about muslims. Also, the article claims that there are "not many muslim vegetarians" which I don't think is true as there are millions of vegetarian muslims in Northern India. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.147.169.125 ( talk) 10:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
There are? Last time I was there, it was the south that was more likely to be vegetarian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.204.234 ( talk) 6 June 2007
Almost all of the edits over the past couple of days have been vandalism by non-account holders or new accounts. Should we request for the page to be semi-protected? I don't have time to put in the request right now, and I wanted some consensus first. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 21:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I would think we ought to see some kind of "semi-protection". Maynard S. Clark 00:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)vegetarian
I removed the following text, cited from http://www.patrickholford.com/content.asp?id_Content=1415:
"An increasing cause for concern is the oestrogen-like phytoestrogens. They are found to occur naturally (in relatively large quantities) in soya products - soya milk especially. These chemicals were originally supposed to have been preventatives for hormone related cancers but have increasingly been found to have the opposite effect. The hormonal imbalance contributes to a disproportional amount of female to male births among vegetarians."
I don't think the Weston A. Price Foundation's website is an encyclopedia-worthy source of information. It's full of claims that go totally against the mainstream, e.g. skim milk, unlike whole milk, causes obesity; "There is no greater risk of heart disease at cholesterol levels of 300 than at 180", etc. Many claims on the WAPF's website aren't even cited. I personally think the WAPF is a joke and shouldn't be cited in Wikipedia. -- PsychoCola 01:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's the current first sentence in the article : "For plant-eating, non-human animals, see Herbivore."
Given the importance of the first words of the wikipedia article, what's that misleading term doing there ?
The term "Herbivore" has to do with veganism at most. I suggest its removal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.244.150.223 ( talk) 13:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC).
I stumbled upon an article that references this (see page 2). Should we tag it with a {{ onlinesource}}? - kotra 20:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the pro-vegetarians are continually arguing that a well-balanced vegetarian diet is healthier than a poorly balanced non-vegetarian diet. Conversely the anti-vegetarians are continually arguing that a well-balanced non-vegetarian diet is healthier than a poorly balanced vegetarian diet. So we're really just establishing that the important thing is eating a well-balanced diet. Can't we all just get along? -- Calibas 02:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Im 11 and I want to be a ovo lacto vegetarian.I really want to stick to this but my parents say I should try it when Im older,What do I do???????!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.108.187.136 ( talk) 22:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
veggieboards is the place to go, http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/index.php, which is a forum for veggies. blacklobster
I have read, reasonably carefully, through this talk about vegetarianism and would like to add my comment. Vegetarianism [covering all the different types] seems to be healthier - to some people - but how about the Inuit [Eskimo] people's original diet [today most of them obtain their food sources same as the rest of us] of raw meat and frozen fish ? It seems to me that the health of the diet was because they didn't lose the goodness [vitamin C for example] by heating it out. Why do you think we have the number of teeth that we do - not for chewin' vegetables ! Roligpolig 08:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I was actually trying to suggest that the article presents a very biased point of view which ought to be corrected. Roligpolig 21:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there any real scientific debate (i.e. amongst scientists) about whether humans are omnivores or herbivores? I've never heard of any. It seems to me that this is an important inclusion for the article. N.B. Some scientists choose to be vegetarians for a variety of reasons. There is also research about which is healthiest diet. However neither in themselves answer the question. A scientist may choose to be a vegetarian and may even think it is the healthiest diet or the only acceptable diet for humane reasons but it doesn't mean they think humans are herbivores. Nil Einne 15:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Removed sentence:
"Other scientific evidence debunks the notion that humans are omnivores, while scientific arguments hold that humans are much more anatomically similar to true herbivores, with long intestinal tracks and blunt teeth, as opposed to omnivores and carnivores." - If you read the source article, it is clear this is someone's opinion, albeit perhaps an educated opinion. However the writer presents a very bias discussion and lacks a significant deal of evolutionary arguments that would undeniably place humans as omnivores just like numerous other primates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.43.248 ( talk) 06:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The Famous Vegetarians section is in desperate need of sources. Some of them are completely false. George Bush, for example, is not a vegetarian. A google search to find anything vegetarian about him turned up this (after being offered a tofurkey Thanksgiving dinner, Bush went home to a real turkey with his family). As for Jesus being a vegetarian... you could only argue that he was a pescetarian, because he definitely ate fish (Luke 24:41-43). Like all lists of famous people, this one needs at least one source for each claim. I'll try to properly attribute this section later on, if it stays. - kotra 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? Parts of this article seem to ellude that a vegie diet is much better then an all meat diet: "Yet the unhealthiness of a largely meat-based diet is clear; for example, meat is devoid of fiber.[69][70] To begin to be healthy a carnivorous diet must include the whole animal, including organs and bones.[67][68] Without fiber or the numerous vitamins and minerals lacking in meat,[71] disease may result."
I have no doubt that this is true but is there such a thing as an all meat diet? I have lived on a ranch where we ate fresh meat every night but there was always heaping piles of fresh vegetables to go along. It seems like this statement is using a very unlikely scenario of an all meat diet to show the potential benefits of an all vegie diet; which I believe is not NPOV and misleading to the reader.
BTW, I don't want to start the same old argument of what diet is better; meat or no meat. It seems obvious to me that in this day and age a person can live an extremely healthy life whether they be a vegetarian or not and it is really a concientious or religious decision. But, I also don't feel the need to mislead people into thinking that a vegie diet is the way to go because it is probably healthier then an all meat diet.-- Csfgdead 21:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Omega-3 fatty acids, the wikipedia article says: "...some plant-based sources of it exist... the plant based sources are considered potentially unsafe, and may actually have no health benefits while possibly increasing the risk of prostate cancer and macular degeneration. However these studies are preliminary."
You're re-wording the "findings" of this poorly written news story. The article is an ABC news article first of all - (yeah, real scientific) and it says that not all scientists agree on HOW safe plant-based omega-3 fatty acids are WHEN USED IN HIGH AMOUNTS AS AN ADDITIVE TO FOODS LIKE FOOD COMPANIES ARE STARTING TO DO. But, nobody bothered to read the FIRST HALF OF THE ARTICLE anyway. The "preliminary evidence" it is discussing pertains to (as it says in the article) HIGH amounts - and it doesn't say how high the amounts are. Certainly, it is not time to imply that all plant sources of Omega-3 are unsafe. I'm going to edit this section. And, yes it's true that your body uses fish more efficiently as an Omega-3 source, but that doesn't mean there's anything dangerous about plant sources. Go here if you're still in doubt: [22]
Rob Shepard 01:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This article reads like it was written by a team of professional vegetarian advocates, extolling all of the "virtues" of vegetarianism with virtually no criticism. So much for "neutral point of view." Wahkeenah 20:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the health benefits section needs a bit of a rewrite as the emphasis on seventh day adventists is disproportionate. I'll base it on stuff like this. Busy at the moment, will come back and do in a week or so - just letting y'all know. -- Coroebus 12:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Glad you posted this link to a study. The most recent revision of this section by Vapour 5/31/07 includes this info, but no reference is given. I'll check back to see if one of you adds the reference since you're already working on this, but if not, I'll add it eventually. Bob98133 13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph in the health section is so incredibly poorly worded. Who the hell wrote that gibberish? 72.197.144.4 23:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Should the Health, Health Concerns and Health Effects be in one section? Or maybe Health should be a bigger subhead since Nutritional, food safety, etc. are below it? It's a bit confusing having the health info in 3 places. Bob98133 13:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The study cited in the first paragraph of the longevity subsection does not give conclusive results. The 95% confidence intervals indicate that occasional meat eaters, fish eaters, and vegetarians have a lower death ratio than frequent meat eaters. However, it is impossible to distinguish statistically between these three groups or say anything conclusive whatsoever about the death ratio of vegans. This article's presentation of this study is therefore misleading.
YES - FISH IS "MEAT!" A Fish is not a PLANT!!! If someone eats Fish they are not vegetarian! -- Carlon 21:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not necessarily true. Fish for many reasons is considered different in many societies. The kind of vegetarianism that you are describing is Locto Ovo vegetarianism. Please cite sources before you make wild claims.
-- smkohnstamm 22:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary:
I am concerned about this section. Some of the claims and sources seem dubious to me; http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm in particular. It states that ammonia contributes to acid rain which seems quite ridiculous to me since ammonia is a basic compound - it would rather prevent acid rain than cause it. Sakkura 20:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, there seems to be blatant misleading misinformation; I am concerned about the following citation. "According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States' water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and a total of 70% of its grain.[ 56]" When both myself and a friend went through this citation, we find no support for any of the claims about livestock consumption as a percentage of crops grown! Be it water equivalence, corn, soy... such crops are listed, but I don't see anything about amounts of such crops and distributions to livestock versus to people. Check this out. If so, this should be removed altogether or perhaps some of citations on this (biased) page can be first verified and then used instead? Gwozda 09:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I've flagged that section as needing cleanup. It wasn't so much for the dubiously-sourced statements, but for a few completely unsourced statements and especially for the two paragraphs at the end. The tone suddenly changes to first-person plural ("we" are presumably farmers, or Americans, or the world in general), and the last few sentences all! end! with! an! exclamation! point! That sounds like somebody cut and pasted straight off of a veggie website. Even if it's all true, it doesn't sound intelligent enough for Wikipedia. 204.80.136.16 23:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Please add fact tags to the disputed statements, or provide specific issues of the text to clean up this section. If no issues are made the fact tag will be removed
Teardrop onthefire 09:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe I have found a source for It can be argued that vegetarians who use animal products aside from meat (dairy, eggs, fur, etc.) are also partially responsible it is however an investigation of a dairy related waste problem in vietnam, but there is non specific info in it to
http://www.idrc.ca/uploads/user-S/11502734231ChinhRR6.pdf. Does this source suffice?
Teardrop onthefire 09:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"Some vegetarians believe that consciously taking someone else's possessions without consent amounts to stealing. Since prey cannot consent to its life being taken away, according to this philosophy it would be immoral to consciously kill an animal and eat its flesh."
I removed this once, but someone put it back again (I think there was a misunderstanding of some sort). This just sounds like a joke to me - murder is bad because your "stealing" someone's life? That would be a great argument for a murder prosecutor, wouldn't it: Well this bloke killed someone, and since killing is essentially stealing a life, we should put him in prison for stealing! I don't want to be all rude and personal, but the person who wrote this comment, you're an idiot. Instead of writing for wikipedia you should take some sort of elementary classes in grasping what the hell do the words that you use amount to. WE KNOW THAT KILLING IS BAD!!! WE DON'T NEED THIS "EXPLAINED" TO US!!! 80.233.142.14 23:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Why is the "Religious and spiritual" so long and complete with sub-headings, when there is a sub-article titled Vegetarianism and religion? The vegetarianism article should only list a few introduction paragraphs on the subject, so the main article can be reduced in length. It is currently 66KB, with the recommended article size being 32KB. Readers can follow the link to the sub-article for further information. I recommend that the section is edited down in size (no sub-headings) with the text merged into the sub-article. Comments please. nirvana2013 08:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the bullet on shadowtariansim--it doesn't seem to merit inclusion under "commonly associated with vegetarianism. It needs a reference, particularly as google presently has zero hits for it. Here's what I deleted with a couple of the typos fixed:
Perhaps there could be a section on "less common practices...", but even so, this one seems hard to justify inclusion in wikipedia without its notability documented. Ccrrccrr 16:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I consider myself a vegetarian, yet I do eat fish, and many of my vegan friends do indeed use (but not consume) animal products. I believe the first few sentences of this article are somewhat biased. -- MosheA 04:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Vegetarians don't eat any meat, even fish. Vegans don't deal with ANY animal products, even clothing. It's what they essentially are. This isn't biased, it's the truth. 76.177.56.8 01:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I have corrected Etymology, added references, and made it a separate section (instead of a subsection of History), because it is more than just an aspect of history. Etymology is connected with a term’s definition and is as close to the Definition and Terminology sections as it is to History. 89.54.129.128 15:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
:The way the etmology paragraph is described is largely historical, so I don't see a problem with keeping it within the larger Historical sub-heading.
Gouranga(UK) 08:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Even if the claim has much evidence against it, still it could be worth noting as a notable piece of information. Especially as the OED also makes reference to it. Gouranga(UK) 10:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy that the terminology section identifies the main forms of vegetarianism (lacto, ovo, lacto-ovo, vegan) but I'm not happy with the follow on section that describes diets associated with vegetarianism. In particular some of these diets are vegetarianism even though they are fringe practices that have no place in the main section. I would advocate splitting that section into "Other varieties" and "Other dietary practices commonly associated with vegetarianism". For my money dietary veganism has no place on the list because it's refining a definition that belongs in another article (the veganism described in the main varieties section is dietary veganism for the purposes of this article). Natural hygiene can probably be deleted altogether. ryker 21:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact there is a lack of clarity elsewhere in the article with respect to the term vegan. The question is whether the term vegan refers to diet (food consumption), lifestyle (goods consumption), or both. Even the cited references are in conflict on this question. Since I feel that all lifestyle vegans are dietary vegans, it is appropriate to equate veganism with dietary veganism. Lifestyle veganism goes a step further, it specialises veganism, so it would be appropriate to use an additional adjective when you want to specifically refer to this practice. Thoughts? ryker 21:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The section of Physiology begins "There is considerable debate over whether humans are physiologically better suited to a herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore diet."
I almost edited this but then thought maybe I'd open it for discussion instead. My understanding is that a carnivore lives wholly or predmoniantly on meat - and this accords with what Wiki says if you follow the link to "Carnivore". But since "Omnivore" is also mentioned in the statement, it is logical to assume it is being used here to suggest a diet consisting wholly of meat.
Surely no-one would consider that the human body is designed for a diet consisting wholly of meat? It has to be "Herbivore or omnivore". A carnivorous diet would result in death from malnutrition! If I'm wrong, maybe sources are needed to support the statement that some consider carnivorous diets beneficial.
I’ve replaced the list of miscellaneous incoherent statements by a coherent chronological account of the history of vegetarianism. Some of the statements in the list lacked evidence, others should be moved to the section on religion, as they deal with present religious attitudes rather than with history. Moreover, contemporary religious attitudes are the topic of a separate article “Religion and vegetarianism”. I also replaced non-scholarly references by academic ones. I am sorry some of them are in German; this is due to the fact that the original research happened to be done by German scholars. 89.49.163.76 17:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the "steadily" from the "grew over the 20th C" part of the history section. I would be happy to see if restored with a citation. I might as well have added citation needed to it, but since it was only the "steadily" part that worried me I decided to just address that. Ccrrccrr 11:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
"Vegetarianism may have been common in the Indian subcontinent as early as the 2nd millennium BCE [1]." This is just speculation. The earliest available evidence refers to the 6th century BCE. Surely it may have been common in the 2nd millennium BCE, but on the same grounds one may guess that it may have been common in the 3rd and 4th millennium BCE ... According to Indian religious texts, it was already common two million years ago. And if you look up the reference, it's just a non-scholarly website, and what they write is: "The rise of vegetarianism in India goes back to more than 500 BC, when India saw the rise of Buddhism and Jainism. These religions preached the principle of ahimsa or "non-violence. During the ancient Aryan Vedic period meat was consumed after animal sacrifice to the Gods. This slowly changed with the rise of Jainism and Buddhisim." So that's precisely the opposite of "as early as the second millennium BCE". 89.49.187.156 12:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The second part of the new condensed history section seems to be o.k.; in the sentence "The International Vegetarian Union, a union of all the national societies, was founded in 1908" I suggest to remove the word "all" (which was not in the old text) - who knows whether each and every of the countless organizations in so many countries has joined the International Union. But the first part of the section contains some flaws (in addition to the one already mentioned above): The motivation of the early Pythagoreans was ethical and religious, hardly nutritional (in the modern sense of that word). The long quote from Ovid is not helpful here, because Ovid was a poet who lived several centuries after Pythagoras, and his poem is not a reliable source for the historical Pythagoras; Ovid's text is as fictional as a modern historical novel - in fact, even more so, because he tells myths. No scholar accepts it as a reliable source. Instead of the present text, I suggest the following: "As far as the sources allow us to trace the roots of vegetarianism, it originated in India and, independently, in the ancient Greek civilization which flourished in the eastern Mediterranean and in Southern Italy. In both areas it was, according to the earliest evidence, closely connected with the idea of nonviolence towards animals, and was promoted by minority groups as an essential part of their religious philosophies. After the Christianization of the Roman Empire in late antiquity it disappeared in Europe as a deliberate concept. Many medieval monks ate little or no meat for ascetic reasons, but they ate fish and were no vegetarians. In Europe vegetarianism only reemerged in the Renaissance. It became a worldwide movement in the 19th and 20th centuries. In 1847 the first Vegetarian Society was founded in England. The International Vegetarian Union, a union of the national societies, ... (etc. as in the present text)." References can be added. 89.49.187.156 15:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
does this mean chicken or all fowl? meaning: where does turkey fit in? PooperScooper, Int'l 22:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Since no reply came on the source of environmental issues of dairy I added it. The template for adding sources has been on this section for some time now, please provide more information as to what should be rewritten or sourced, if no comment follows I will remove the template as of 1 October Teardrop onthefire 08:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
There's various articles like Lacto-ovo vegetarianism that look destined to be little more than dictionary definitions with little 'hard' content otherwise - should these be merged back into this article? FlagSteward 13:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The table for the 'types of vegetarianism', the last column has a header that is not formatted correctly. I am not sure how to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.96.234.80 ( talk) 02:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Antiveg - The reference about vegetarianism improving conditions for slaughterhouse workers does not state that they would become unemployed. Using the reference you cited is a huge jump from anything stated in the article and from the topic of vegetarianism. Why not cite stats that vegetarianism will reduce illegal immigration since recent raids on slaughterhouses have found many undocumented workers? While there may be proof that unemployment causes the problems stated in your ancient reference, there is no indication that vegetarianism will cause unemployment in the slaughterhouse sector. In fact, my guess is that there are more vegetarians now than ever before; and also more slaughterhouse workers, so it could be argued that vegetarianism is a boon to that job field. Bob98133 18:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Here are the first two paragraphs:
If we define vegetarianism as not eating flesh and slaughter by-products, it does not make sense to then say "there are some variations that allow milk." Since it was never suggested in the definition that milk is not allowed, saying that there are some "variations" that allow it doesn't logically follow.
If fact, there are some variations that also do not allow dairy products, besides the aforementioned flesh. The next paragraph already states this well: "veganism, in comparison..."
To suggest that milk-drinking is some "variation" of vegetarianism is like saying lettuce-eating is a "variation" of keeping kosher — eating lettuce is not part of the definition of kosher, milk-drinking is not part of the definition of vegetarianism. If you want to amend the definition you have up, that's a different matter.
Therefore, I've removed the line starting with "there are variations..." again. — Sam 15:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Although the latest edits by User:Lovedeep singh were reverted for whatever reasons, some parts of these edits might be useful for this article, or a future subarticle on this topic. The material appears to be cited from Guru Granth Sahib, and might be used at an appropriate place on wikipedia. The inserted material follows. deeptrivia ( talk) 03:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Everyone know's that it's very crucial to abstain from the eating of meat because this increases our karmas, the reasons for becoming vegetarian. Some examples from Sikh Guru’s Hymns that teaches us to not eat meat.
1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (Guru Granth Sahib p1377)
2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (Guru Granth Sahib p332)
3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (Guru Granth Sahib p1350)
4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but, which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (Guru Granth Sahib p1374)
5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (Guru Granth Sahib p1242
6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)
7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)
8.Jey "Ratt" lageey kapra, jama hoi palit, Jey Ratt peeveh manava, ta kyo nirmal cheet. Meaning: If blood touches a cloth, it becomes unfit for use; If blood (or meat) is consumed by a human being, how can his heart be pure. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib)
9. Janam Sakhi Gou bhens ateh murgian haiwan garib,tin par shuri haram hai khavan tenah palit.In these verse of janam sakhi Guru Nanak mentions that killing of cows buffalos,hens,is considered haram.
10. Bhai Gurdas ji tells about the inhabitants of kaljug "Maran Gou Garib Nu Dharti Upar Paap Pasara" .They have started to kill the cow and the weak thus the earth have been covered with sins.
11.The Animal Killer Will Become an Animal and Be Killed By killing animals, not only will we be bereft of the human form but we will have to take an animal form and somehow or other be killed by the same type of animal we have killed. This is the law of nature. The Sanskrit word "mamsa" means meat. It is said: "mam sah khadatiti mamsah". That means, "I am now eating the flesh of an animal who some day in the future be eating my flesh". The choice is yours think for yourself .Baba Kabir ji says "Kabir Jor Kia So Julm Hai, Lehat Jawaab Khudai"
12. Innumerable are the fools, stark blind in ignorance; and
What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature? Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee. Whatever pleaseth Thee is good; Thou art forevermore; O Formless One ! -Adi Granth ( Japji, Pauree 18, Guru Nanak Dev ji) Countless fools, blinded by ignorance. Countless thieves and embezzlers. Countless impose their will by force. Countless butchers (cut-throats) and ruthless killers. Countless sinners who keep on sinning. Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies. Countless wretches, eating meat (filth) as their diet. Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads. Nanak describes the state of the lowly. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), Ang 4, Japji Sahib: Pauree 18 13 .Kabir says at another place: "Maas madha sabh tajj daloo, ho gyan ghore aswar ." Meaning: Stop taking meat and wine, ride the horse of perfect knowledge and remove your doubt.
I removed the paragraph on farm animal excrement because 1.) the claim that this destroys topsoil needs to be reconciled with the fact that topsoil health is generally regarded as dependent on the return of human/animal excrement. 2.) Comparing farm animal excrement to the human population's requires a number on the animal population under comparison. 3.) Source identifiers as simply the last names of two indivduals seem inadequate. Rtdrury ( talk) 20:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute, raised by an anonymous user, over this sentence:
“Other scientific evidence debunks the notion that humans are omnivores, while scientific arguments hold that humans are much more anatomically similar to true herbivores, with long intestinal tracks and blunt teeth, as opposed to omnivores and carnivores” [26]
The user claims the source is an opinion and not scientific.I disagree, but still, there should be more authoritative sources out there, and two or more of such sources could be added to back this sentence up. Anyone else want to chime in on this? Okiefromokla's sockpuppet/ talk 22:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The introduction of Milton contains a review of literature describing the similarities between the human gut and herbivore guts. Then it discusses the development of meat eating. Thus is can be cited both for both. Note that the text that got removed and reinstated does not claim that humans are "naturally" herbivores (whatever that would mean). It only describes anatomy. One quote from Milton: "Thus, using data from various lines of evidence, there seems to be general consensus that humans come from an ancestral lineage that was strongly dependent on plant foods."
Perhaps the disputed text should be expanded, but I don't see why it should be deleted. Ccrrccrr ( talk) 01:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The article seems rather positivistic about veganism, not really mentioning the recommended supplementation of diet with vitamin B12. It implies that sufficient B12 can be gotten by humans from plant sources, an idea that is largely dismissed according to my reading. See the article on vitamin B12.
The Vegetarianism article states among other things:
How about NO B12 whatsoever in ANY unmodified vegetable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk) 21:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The article provided by your link doesn't say much about B12. The Vegan Society article linked to within it says this:
Vitamin B12 deficiency, from what I've read, can cause serious and sometimes irreversible brain damage, so it isn't something to trifle with. When it is "in plants" it is apparently from bacteria, not from the plant. (I don't mean to be secretive by not signing in. I've forgotten my password and haven't bothered to set up another account.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk) 18:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm only slightly trying to be polemical in this. However, the matter at hand is really one of science and facts. Where is the American Diatetic Association info available? I haven't abandoned my original question. What are the plant sources for B12? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk) 01:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Right you are, I missed that. However, I'm not sure the WP article really covers the issue in this statement:
It seems to state that B12 is available in "collard greens, leafy greens, tempeh and tofu."
Then this is somewhat optimistic, though it seems to be on both sides of the fence at once:
"Varies widely" seems to indicate that some plants have substantially more than others.
Then, the ADA article you link says this:
That seems to argue against "varies widely."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk)
Well, well, well - the same endless arguing here and there. I don't mean to be offensive or cynic in any way, but these kind of disputes generally doesn't have more sense than arguing about the possibilities of space flight. I mean, there are other cultures (surprised?), where vegetarianism has been practiced since thousands of years.
And in the modern societies - the world of so-called intelligent, ethical beings - the general judgment sounds like this: "Oh my god, there is one percent chance that I will suffer form slight deprivation disease in a world of diabetes, obesity, cancer, polluted air, polluted water and polluted land! Then I'll rather kill animals for meat."
Seriously: Please, wake up. Our body, our health and our wealth doesn't have an absolute value. These are not sanctuaries, but just empty shelters - shelters for consciousness and humaneness, which gives the meaning of life. Our body, our health and our wealth will never be complete, but in consciousness and humaneness we can compete and be complete. Not doing any unnecessary harm to animals is our greatest chance to achieve any kind of inner well being.
Anyway; have a peaceful night.
- a moron from Hungary (of course, what else could I be...?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baratgab ( talk • contribs) 22:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I started reviewing the studies that were cited and they did not have the results indicated in the new text. They were not "all" studies, in the first reference just six studies and even those were not entirely conclusive. Also, these were not the "most recent" but were published 5 years ago - 2003. Same story with the second reference. Referencing is great, but these references didn't support the text that was added. Conclusion or discussion that said that the results "may" indicate something were taken as fact, etc. The info might be correct, but the references were not appropriate. Bob98133 ( talk) 15:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
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I am trying to add a link to my little idea, FeedlotRadio.com, to raise animals better the same way you can plants, with music, and silence the vegan protest (ideally).
For some reason, this novel idea is being rejected outright every time I try to add the link. It was suggested I discuss it here, so I am. I guess I didn't think there'd be an issue, and I'm surprised it wouldn't be included when so many redundant pro-veganism sites are.
It was suggested that I try to post here, so I am. What's wrong with linking to this? Repeat2341 08:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps vegetarians would not like to be associated with raising animals in this way, because the gist of being a vegetarian is that we are trying to voice our choices by not consuming animal products at all- therefore there is no "better way" to raise animals who are only bred and kept for future sale as food.
Your mind is sorta going that direction of thinking for the better - what would really help is to convince people that the land could be better used for organic farming. Or Eco tourism.
Hope that helps09:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)RR Portland Oregon 24.21.192.115 ( talk) 09:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Some idiot put a picture of meat in this article with a caption that read "meat, a vegetarian food". I've deleted the picture but i don't know how to go about putting a new one one up. I could probably learn how to do it but i'd need permission.
On other issues, yes i agree that it should be semi-protected (i assume that means that edits are moderated?. It will stop ignorant morons doing stuff like the one i mentioned above.
In answer to the cowardly person who posted before me without signing thier name, the health benifits are substantial but not a major factor in most vegetarian's choices to become one. The immorality is a much larger factor (forgive me if i'm wrong for some of you). We have a lesser risk of heart disease and bowel cancer, amongst other illnesses. Statisitically we have a higher lifespan than meat eaters. Yes, it is true that people who eat fish but no meat do live longer than us. But it also true that the inuits (the ones that eat a traditional diet)who eat only meat and fish have the shortest life span. As for proteins, i expect you to do some research as your knowledge of biological chemistry is laughable. All proteins are made out of 20 amino acids, an animal protien e.g. myosin and a plant protein could have a very similar primary structures, which is all that matters nutrition wise, it wouldn't matter if they had different structures and functions. There can be no arguments about protein quality as there isn't much difference in amino acids overall. As long as you eat pulses and grains you will have all the proteins your body will ever need. Just a thought, the best source of essential fatty acids are lino floor tiles as they are made up of a polymer, would you want to eat them?
The bit about herbivores at the start should stay. Some people refer to mistakedly herbivores as vegetarians. It's quite funny really because it would mean that a mouse doesn't eat meat becuase it chose not to. :)A vegetarian chooses not to eat meat and a herbivore eats no animal products by instinct. In answer to the question at the bottom, all humans are omnivores apart from vegans as veggies eat eggs and/or dairy products.
As for all 11 year old wannabe vegetarian, 11 isn't too young at all (i became one when i was 8 and have heard of younger children doing this as well). Do whatever you want, it doesn't matter what your parents think, at 11 they are only there to guide you. Tell them the pro's of vegetarianism, if that doesn't work refuse to eat anything with meat in it. Don't worry about starving or having malnutition, they'll probably give in after a week or two. Sci_fi_rocks 22:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Fish such as cod or tuna contains only about 25mg of cholesterol (good idea). Small amounts of cholesterol from fish WILL reduce your total cholesterol intake instead of eating pig meat, KFC, or Mcd's. I personally like cod. A vegetarian diet can be or actually is a very risky behavior by having a severe protein deficiency.
Brown rice is a inherently poor source of protein. I consider brown rice a good source of complex carbs. Nice try though. Vegetarains point to red meat. I point to fish!!! Vegetarains eating behavior has nothing to do for a health benefit. Fish, egg whites, non-fat milk, and skinless turkey breast are healthy sources of high quality protein. Soy, on the other hand may cause cancer, allergies, and birth defects which most vegetarians say, "soy is the best?"
The unsourced opinions claim a "Vegetarian Diet" has a significant advantage? Wikipedia is not a promo ad for people to become Vegetarians.
Adding original research to Wikipedia is not acceptable. If you want to avoid an "edit war" read Wikipedia's policies. -- Just an onlooker 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
it is a proven fact that if you want to be perfectly fit and healthy you need to eat meat and other animal products domestic farm animals are here to serve humans that is why they exist Bouse23 16:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
"These sentences above written by "David Olivier" are unsourced, opinions, and pure speculation."
Notice how David FAILS at every level to explain what plant sources equal animal sources of proteins.
Soy is the highest quality plant protein and it is very risky to eat. All other plant sources of protein are lower than soy. So what is left to eat for a true vegetarian? Notice how I have been asking this same question for about a week now and eveybody FAILS to give me a VALID ANSWER! David is a perfect example that vegetarians falsely believe in their mind that plant sources of protein are equal to animal sources of protein. David merely makes my info even more valid now than ever! Just an onlooker 00:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The reference you provided clearer points to protein content. The quality of protein is about protein value not protein content.
The table is unscientific. It only explains about protein content. It has nothing at all to do with protein content. Go to the vegetarian article and click on the links that explain about protein value. Please provide links about protein quality.
Protein from vegetable sources such as peanut butter (listed in the unscientific table about protein content) is actually lower than fish animal protein.
Here is some info about protein quality. It is about protein value not protein content.
Some or maybe even most vegetarians have an "extreme false belief" that protein content is the same as protein quality.
Some or most vegetarians do not draw the line between the different grades of protein quality and protein content. Just an onlooker 18:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I said some or most. If you prefer I should clarifiy and say just some have a "false belief"... Happy now?
A quick glance by most who disagree with me on this talk page continue to point to a false belief about protein content in their references that they continue to tout as proof showing the vegetable protein is equal to animal. When I talk about vegetarian diet I am pointing to a strict vegetarain diet that eats egg and dairy occasionally. People who consider themselves true vegetarians do not eat any meat, dairy, or eggs, period!
Just an onlooker 19:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
An average vegetarian diet is not referenced in the link I provided. Your statement obfuscates the facts. According to some vegetarians who I have spoken to, they believe plant protein is equal to animal. Some (which I am not going to say who) point to protein content rather than protein quality. When some (not most) point to protein content they can develop a protein deficiency by following their false belief in their mind. Just an onlooker 20:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Some assume (which I am not going to name who) vegetarians always eat egg and dairy. Nothing could be further from the truth! Some vegetarians do not eat egg and some vegetarians do not eat dairy products. This type of eating behavior can sometimes cause a protein deficiency. Also, a quick glance at references about protein content on pro vegetarian websites do not mention anything about protein quality. This further misinforms the public and many many vegetarians. They always point to protein content. I hold other statements (which I am not going to point to who) to be falsehoods. Thanks, Just an onlooker 21:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, guys, " the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" or reality. There is zero point debating on talk page trying to convice other side that vegetarian diet is deficient/sufficient. Just add content with proper source and it doesn't matter. This article contain too many unverifiable statements. And citing POV or facts from advocacy group is not acceptable for encyrcropedia. Therefore, I will add citation needed and leave it for while. Secondly, this apply to just on looker. If you want to contribute, explaing what it mean by "quality" in term of protein would clear thing up. Then adding list of type of protein as well as list of food (vegetables, milk, egg, meat and so on) which can provide these different protein type help. You don't have to convince anyone. All you have to do is to demonstrate that your source are verifiable as defined by wikipedia. Vapour
Oh, and this is to Mig77. As of "there is right level of fat and/or cholesterol", you can google or just look at wikipedia articles on fat and cholesterol. As of optimal diet, read the section of criticism, where I quoted from peer reviewed articles from academic journal. Note that Adventist studies are already incoroporated into two meta studies I quoted. These sutides clearly support my "sensible rule of thumb" This "insight" is pretty much "duh" for anyone with common sense. As of lot of fat vegetarian Hindu in Sri Lanka, I'm sorry I can't pay you to go there. But did you know that human body weight is determined by the calories input/output so one can easily become fat if one overeat on rice or nun bread? Vapour
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth or reality."
Articles are forked for a reason. The Vegetarianism article is very long, and the Vegetarianism in Buddhism article is very detailed, so it is correct to maintain it as a fork and link to it in the article. In fact, ideally, the vegetarianism article should be forked more, since it's currently 49KB with over 30 sections. Please keep additions on the topic of Buddhism in the appropriate article. Thanks, Davidjk ( msg+ edits) 09:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
under this small section, the article says, "There are numerous Pali Tri Pitaka text showing Buddha ate food." should it read "meat" instead of "food?" larz ( talk) 22:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems that due to the relentless efforts of one or two people, that section has become filled with unacceptable statements, such as the following.
"both vegetarian and vegan advocacy groups invariably promote their diet as healthy while claiming that the diet which includes meat and/or fish is inherently unhealthy"
There are certainly many AR groups (such as the Veggie Pride, for instance) that are vegetarian/vegan advocates but who do not claim that meat or fish is inhernently unhealthy. That foregoing animal flesh (and byproducts) is equivalently healthy is enough for many to make an ethical argument in favour of refusing to participate in the slaughter of animals.
"Critics argue that these groups are engaging in scientific misrepresentation in direct opposition to public interest"
What critics? How can such a blatantly POV statement be included without qualification in a WP article?
"A common misconception is that vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal sources such as fish, eggs and dairy is inherently a higher biological value protein according to the Biological Value method of testing protein quality than protein obtained from vegetable sources such as soy."
Weasel words, unsupported statements, unreliable references, absurd statements (about the "inherently higher biological values", see above.
David Olivier 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't have an electronic reference right now, but my biology textbook states that vegetable protein is classified as 'incomplete' and meat protein is 'complete'. This refers to the different types of amino acids in the proteins. Vegetable proteins have less varieties of amino acids in the proteins than meat. This is what 'protein quality' is refering to. -- Xfcanadian 22:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It says "However, the Bhagavad Gita also states that killing an animal as an offering to Brahman gives this animal's soul a chance to gain a human body;"- No it doesnt. Can you give me the reference? Bhagvad Gita doesnt say anything about animal sacrifice anywhere. The reference given in next line is about Human bodies.
Seems to me this part was written by someone trying to find loopholes in Gita that allow meat eating. Unless proper reference, with the line that quotes that the Gita allows animal sacrifice is given, I might have to raise NPOV.
The user by the name of Xfcanadian inaccurately stated that vegetable protein is incomplete; however, soy protein is an excellent example of a complete protein. Reading this article and the arguments going on throughout the talk page, I noticed numerous inaccuracies. Vegetarianism has long been shown to be healthier and more beneficial, so it is sad that people still choose to ignore that.
This is probably a stupid question and is probably already answered somewhere on here, but do vegetarians count fish as meat not to eat or not? I know on another part of this discussion page, people are talking about eating fish, so does that mean vegetarians will?
Like I said, this is probably already answered somewhere else, but if you could answer this here, I'd really appreciate it. Future...Destination 00:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Some vegetarians eat fish. And still do consider themselves "vegetarians". Others have a different opinion. "Vegetable" is just a word. In English. Cultures define words. A culture has the power the define the word they use for "vegetables" to include fish. This is not a matter of "facts" about vegetables and fish -- but rather a question about word usages. Dictionaries just record the way people use words. The only "fact" here that we can be pretty sure of is the most westerners don't think a fish is a vegetable. But they may also not think a fish is entirely "meat", either. And what do various other cultures actually think? They might have an even stronger concept of fish not being "meat", even though they don't really think it is a "vegetable" either -- and so reasonably include it in a "non-meat" diet pattern (which others might choose to label "vegetarian"). The most correct, broad definition of Vegetarian would be: people who tend avoid at least some meat at least some of the time... But then, what would that leave people to argue about? 69.87.193.120 15:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the reputable dictionary claim about animal derived foods this means a Vegie should not eat milk, butter Cheese. Lets face it westerners predominatly Americans try and hijack a subject and argue on almost every page for the AMERICANISATION of the article. Vegis in India China and Japan eat Fish and Eggs. They are more populous yet quieter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.36.75.21 ( talk) 11:50, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." WP:Verifiability
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article." WP:Verifiability
"the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say." WP:OR
Any material in an article MUST come from a reliable source that directly relates that material to the topic (Vegetarianism).
"In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves." Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources
(see also Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Aspects_of_reliability)
"Self-published sources Main article: Wikipedia:Verifiability A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources
So geocities pages, for example, are not good sources.
Mdbrownmsw 21:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
[ rec.food.veg FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS]. Out of date, but interesting to see their approach to the subject. Covers a lot of area covered in WP better than here, so I think we may learn something. (Yes it is probably biased, thats why it is on the talk page and not the main page)-- Mig77 (t) 14:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The religion section of this article is HUGE, in an article that's already extremely long. Are there any objections to starting another article about "Vegetarianism (religious aspects)" and just summarizing the content for this article - MichaelBluejay 10:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Should this be included? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm savidan (talk) (e@) 05:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Viriditas, I'm not sure I understand your problwem with the sentence and ref. Did you read the linked abstract and the ref's quote? Do you have a source to refute the ref? Also, see WP:V. -- Jeandré, 2006-12-20 t19:51z
As a vegetarian speaking here, does the matter of IQ affecting vegetarianism in later life really matter? Shouldn't the study investigate whether a vegetarian diet affects your IQ? - Mitchell Strahan 05:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The section Vegetarianism#famous vegetarians lists Adolf Hitler as vegetarian. However, the article vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler says: "After the war Rudolf Diels (who headed the early Gestapo for a year before narrowly avoiding execution) wrote that Hitler sometimes ate Bavarian Leberknödel (liver dumplings) but only when they were prepared by his photographer friend Heinrich Hoffmann." I've always thought being vegetarian means never eating meat. Have I misunderstood the concept of vegetarianism or should Hitler be removed from that list? -- Danogo 08:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
"While a high-protein diet of vegetables produces a similar effect, the flesh-eating bacteria are discouraged on vegetable matter because of the higher amount of sugar--meat has very little sugar"
The statement states that meat has very little sugar and high protein vegetable foods contain sugar. If that is the case, then such vegetarian diet shouldn't/wouldn't be recommended for diabetics because of its sugar content. So I think either the health aspect of this should be carefully reworded or removed entirely before it leads to misleading decisions. -- Idleguy 07:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Vegetarianism is "the direction" not "the distance" being a vegetarian or a vegan are measures of distance.
nouns with the suffix "ism" are "the act, state, or theory of".
If this is just about the practice of not eating meat, then all the references to "semi" vegetarian have no place here as they have nothing to do with "not consuming meat"
This article is exploring the philosophies, reasons and theories not just the practices to start it with such an off topic statement seems strange.
I welcome a broad open article that explores the theory behind peoples choices and the standards they use. Brucedenney 19:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think most Catholics would tell you that fish isn't meat. So a pescatarian diet would be vegetarian to them. In reality even things like apples contain meat. Maybe the article should be changed to "Vegetarianism is the practice of not consuming animal meat." It doesn't seem very practical to be 100% vegetarian. Even things that would normally be thought of as vegetarian possibly contain rat hair, insects, and who knows what else. Remember when those Strawberry pop tarts were recalled because they contained too much rat? Jecowa 22:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
TYME wrote: Vegetariansim is the practice of eating NO animals. Vegetarianism is _not_ the practice of eating SOME vegetables. Last time I knew, fish and poultry described _animals_. Moreover, to write "Vegetarianism is the practice of not consuming the flesh of any animal (including sea animals in some cases)..." is contradictory. "Not...any" means without exception; "in some cases" is an exception. Through your current description, you have described a far too broad a group of people as vegetarians, which is patently false and offensive to those of us who practice true vegetarianism. And "semivegetarian"?? You have got to be kidding. So, if someone does not have sex on day, on that day are they a "semivirgin"? My mother will be so proud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.244.199 ( talk) 19:24, 1 August 2007
The section on notable vegetarians is just a sentence or so plusa link to a category. Both are laughably incomplete and, IMHO, add very very little the text of the article. I think we should just ditch the section. -- mako ( talk• contribs) 03:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
In Israel there is a whole village ( moshav) of vegetarians. It is called Amirim. Are there similar places anywhere else in the world? -- Amir E. Aharoni 07:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the town of Pushkar, India, is strictly vegetarian. It was when I was there in 1996. There was milk and yoghurt, but no meat or eggs (or alcohol). 76.174.204.234 22:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)anonymous
Hello All, Sorry to see such strife on this topic, (or any), but I noted that in the first paragraph of the article someone has inserted the incorrect statement that the word "vegetarian" comes from "an ancient Native American indian word meaning bad hunter". Tried to edit it out of the article, but having never done so before, couldn't seem to find the way to do so. FYI, and may all be well and filled with compassion for one another. -William Belair
The article claims vegetarianism is about not killing. If that is so then meat from amputation and blood would be allowed. This article covers milk and vegetarianism. I'm sorry to see that it does not address blood and vegetarianism. Meat from animals not killed (died naturally or meat from amputation) is not covered also. Oh and sponges are animals. I knew a vegan who used a natural sponge. Insects are not covered. And vegetarianism is not against killing plants - they are alive too ya know. Anyway, the article is long on claims and counter claims and short on logic and exact use of words. 4.250.168.152 10:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I would argue that the only thing that so called "semi-vegetarian" diets have in relation to vegetarian diets are the name. Ashmoo suggests that they are related because they both "exclude" things. In that case, diabetic diets, allergy based diets, "low fat", "low carb" diets would all be related to vegetarianism. Just because they share some terminology doesn't mean that they are related. Just like a koala bear is not related to the polar bear, except on the most superficial levels. Am I wrong? -- Cpoupart 05:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
The wiktionary defines "misnomer" as 1. A use of a term asserted to be misleading., 2. A term asserted to be widely used incorrectly. and 3. (Wiktionary jargon) A term whose sense in common usage conflicts with a technical sense.
In order: 1) Both pesco-vegetarian and pollo-vegetarian are misleading terms because they create a link to vegetarianism. This in itself is an oxymoron. Vegetarians do not eat fish or chicken, and by doing so, a person is no longer vegetarian. 2) The 'vegetarian' part of both of these terms is misapplied. People often argue that the 'vegetarian' part refers to the consumption of vegetables. That doesn't work with the etymological origins of 'vegetarian' which come from the Latin 'vegetus' (meaning 'lively') not from the English "vegetable". Further, part of any omnivorous diet are vegetables, making the "vegetable" reference redundant. 3) The technical and dictionary definition of "vegetarian" is someone who does not eat the flesh of animals. Saying that someone is a "vegetarian who eats fish" automatically violates the technical definition of 'vegetarian'. -- Cpoupart 05:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with including the Semi-Vegetarian link if it is a popular phrase. Poultry however, is a type of meat, as is pork and beef etc... I don't see how it can be defined otherwise. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 09:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This section lacks sources for every single statement made except one. And the wording is very biased, even in the statement that does have a source. It simply does not feel neutral at all. Weasel words like "generally" and "problematic" don't help either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.84.127.209 ( talk) 17:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
84.72.116.141, in this that 75.84.127.209 is referring to, "generally" is a weasel word because it isn't very specific. You would want to find a source and change "People don't generally care what has to die to fill their stomachs" to "Nintey-three per cent of Americans surveyed don't care what has to die to fill their stomachs. /" "Problematic" is a weasel word because it doesn't say how it is a problem. You would want to find a source and change "Vegetarians are problematic" to "Vegetarians burned down seventeen slaughter houses in 2005. [20]" Jecowa 22:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
This section has a bunch of stuff under the Paleolithic diet that doesn't belong there, such as information about isoflavones in Tofu. It should be reorganized into a section of opposing opinions or something.
I can't see how the Paleolithic diet is related to vegetarianism, as it includes 1/3 meat in it. I deleted the section. 86.133.186.101 18:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Could whoever put this tag in please explain which parts of this section they consider to be "weasel words"? Personally, I think there is a fair equilibrium between pro and con views. -- 84.72.116.141 13:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
This is what the person who added the weasel tag said, "this section has too many of "some feel" without citing soures." This seems to be the statement Idleguy is refering to:
Humans occupy a middle ground between the two; they have no claws and mostly blunt teeth (molars) but also a pair of sharp canine teeth designed for tearing, which some feel is proof of a naturally omnivorous diet (gorillas are herbivorous and have very large canines, though these are at least partly for defensive purposes, while other primates with sharp canines are not strictly herbivorous and will occasionally kill and eat other animals).
Jecowa 22:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it is wrong to leave out the fact that there are other omnivores that drink with their lips apart from humans. Which contradicts the 'animals that drink with lips are natural' herbivores' argument. Halbared 21:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Gnocchi 2 by salsachica.jpg has been nominated for deletion. I think it is a great image. Your input is appreciated. Jecowa 00:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
not that there is anything wrong with it but it looks, specificaly, more like a vegan meal. Perhaps a picture of a plate with some sort of egg and cheese too on it would be better. Blacklobster
The section "Health Concerns" cites two books by John Harvey Kellogg several times. I'm not sure they are reliable sources, given their age, and…well just take a look at the article on him. -- 69.19.14.39 01:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is very Americentric, it's written from an American POV and most of the sources cite are American. Also, the quality of the writing is fairly poor 86.147.169.125 10:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm guessing it's written by mostly Americans, cant blame them for being Americentric. As to the poor writing, feel free to improve it. -- Calibas 02:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me that this article sounds like it was written by vegetarians... which is to be expected, it's WIKIpedia!!, it would be nice to see this article somehow reviewed by those that are Encyclopedic-ally inclined, and not zealously voicing their biases. For one I don't see any "Controversies" section, or even any citing of information regarding vegetarian agenda's. 202.161.87.172 ( talk) 08:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed "pig meat" as it seems to give bias to the article, in the section about muslims. Also, the article claims that there are "not many muslim vegetarians" which I don't think is true as there are millions of vegetarian muslims in Northern India. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.147.169.125 ( talk) 10:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
There are? Last time I was there, it was the south that was more likely to be vegetarian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.204.234 ( talk) 6 June 2007
Almost all of the edits over the past couple of days have been vandalism by non-account holders or new accounts. Should we request for the page to be semi-protected? I don't have time to put in the request right now, and I wanted some consensus first. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 21:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I would think we ought to see some kind of "semi-protection". Maynard S. Clark 00:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)vegetarian
I removed the following text, cited from http://www.patrickholford.com/content.asp?id_Content=1415:
"An increasing cause for concern is the oestrogen-like phytoestrogens. They are found to occur naturally (in relatively large quantities) in soya products - soya milk especially. These chemicals were originally supposed to have been preventatives for hormone related cancers but have increasingly been found to have the opposite effect. The hormonal imbalance contributes to a disproportional amount of female to male births among vegetarians."
I don't think the Weston A. Price Foundation's website is an encyclopedia-worthy source of information. It's full of claims that go totally against the mainstream, e.g. skim milk, unlike whole milk, causes obesity; "There is no greater risk of heart disease at cholesterol levels of 300 than at 180", etc. Many claims on the WAPF's website aren't even cited. I personally think the WAPF is a joke and shouldn't be cited in Wikipedia. -- PsychoCola 01:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's the current first sentence in the article : "For plant-eating, non-human animals, see Herbivore."
Given the importance of the first words of the wikipedia article, what's that misleading term doing there ?
The term "Herbivore" has to do with veganism at most. I suggest its removal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.244.150.223 ( talk) 13:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC).
I stumbled upon an article that references this (see page 2). Should we tag it with a {{ onlinesource}}? - kotra 20:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the pro-vegetarians are continually arguing that a well-balanced vegetarian diet is healthier than a poorly balanced non-vegetarian diet. Conversely the anti-vegetarians are continually arguing that a well-balanced non-vegetarian diet is healthier than a poorly balanced vegetarian diet. So we're really just establishing that the important thing is eating a well-balanced diet. Can't we all just get along? -- Calibas 02:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Im 11 and I want to be a ovo lacto vegetarian.I really want to stick to this but my parents say I should try it when Im older,What do I do???????!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.108.187.136 ( talk) 22:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
veggieboards is the place to go, http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/index.php, which is a forum for veggies. blacklobster
I have read, reasonably carefully, through this talk about vegetarianism and would like to add my comment. Vegetarianism [covering all the different types] seems to be healthier - to some people - but how about the Inuit [Eskimo] people's original diet [today most of them obtain their food sources same as the rest of us] of raw meat and frozen fish ? It seems to me that the health of the diet was because they didn't lose the goodness [vitamin C for example] by heating it out. Why do you think we have the number of teeth that we do - not for chewin' vegetables ! Roligpolig 08:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I was actually trying to suggest that the article presents a very biased point of view which ought to be corrected. Roligpolig 21:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there any real scientific debate (i.e. amongst scientists) about whether humans are omnivores or herbivores? I've never heard of any. It seems to me that this is an important inclusion for the article. N.B. Some scientists choose to be vegetarians for a variety of reasons. There is also research about which is healthiest diet. However neither in themselves answer the question. A scientist may choose to be a vegetarian and may even think it is the healthiest diet or the only acceptable diet for humane reasons but it doesn't mean they think humans are herbivores. Nil Einne 15:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Removed sentence:
"Other scientific evidence debunks the notion that humans are omnivores, while scientific arguments hold that humans are much more anatomically similar to true herbivores, with long intestinal tracks and blunt teeth, as opposed to omnivores and carnivores." - If you read the source article, it is clear this is someone's opinion, albeit perhaps an educated opinion. However the writer presents a very bias discussion and lacks a significant deal of evolutionary arguments that would undeniably place humans as omnivores just like numerous other primates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.43.248 ( talk) 06:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The Famous Vegetarians section is in desperate need of sources. Some of them are completely false. George Bush, for example, is not a vegetarian. A google search to find anything vegetarian about him turned up this (after being offered a tofurkey Thanksgiving dinner, Bush went home to a real turkey with his family). As for Jesus being a vegetarian... you could only argue that he was a pescetarian, because he definitely ate fish (Luke 24:41-43). Like all lists of famous people, this one needs at least one source for each claim. I'll try to properly attribute this section later on, if it stays. - kotra 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? Parts of this article seem to ellude that a vegie diet is much better then an all meat diet: "Yet the unhealthiness of a largely meat-based diet is clear; for example, meat is devoid of fiber.[69][70] To begin to be healthy a carnivorous diet must include the whole animal, including organs and bones.[67][68] Without fiber or the numerous vitamins and minerals lacking in meat,[71] disease may result."
I have no doubt that this is true but is there such a thing as an all meat diet? I have lived on a ranch where we ate fresh meat every night but there was always heaping piles of fresh vegetables to go along. It seems like this statement is using a very unlikely scenario of an all meat diet to show the potential benefits of an all vegie diet; which I believe is not NPOV and misleading to the reader.
BTW, I don't want to start the same old argument of what diet is better; meat or no meat. It seems obvious to me that in this day and age a person can live an extremely healthy life whether they be a vegetarian or not and it is really a concientious or religious decision. But, I also don't feel the need to mislead people into thinking that a vegie diet is the way to go because it is probably healthier then an all meat diet.-- Csfgdead 21:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Omega-3 fatty acids, the wikipedia article says: "...some plant-based sources of it exist... the plant based sources are considered potentially unsafe, and may actually have no health benefits while possibly increasing the risk of prostate cancer and macular degeneration. However these studies are preliminary."
You're re-wording the "findings" of this poorly written news story. The article is an ABC news article first of all - (yeah, real scientific) and it says that not all scientists agree on HOW safe plant-based omega-3 fatty acids are WHEN USED IN HIGH AMOUNTS AS AN ADDITIVE TO FOODS LIKE FOOD COMPANIES ARE STARTING TO DO. But, nobody bothered to read the FIRST HALF OF THE ARTICLE anyway. The "preliminary evidence" it is discussing pertains to (as it says in the article) HIGH amounts - and it doesn't say how high the amounts are. Certainly, it is not time to imply that all plant sources of Omega-3 are unsafe. I'm going to edit this section. And, yes it's true that your body uses fish more efficiently as an Omega-3 source, but that doesn't mean there's anything dangerous about plant sources. Go here if you're still in doubt: [22]
Rob Shepard 01:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This article reads like it was written by a team of professional vegetarian advocates, extolling all of the "virtues" of vegetarianism with virtually no criticism. So much for "neutral point of view." Wahkeenah 20:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the health benefits section needs a bit of a rewrite as the emphasis on seventh day adventists is disproportionate. I'll base it on stuff like this. Busy at the moment, will come back and do in a week or so - just letting y'all know. -- Coroebus 12:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Glad you posted this link to a study. The most recent revision of this section by Vapour 5/31/07 includes this info, but no reference is given. I'll check back to see if one of you adds the reference since you're already working on this, but if not, I'll add it eventually. Bob98133 13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph in the health section is so incredibly poorly worded. Who the hell wrote that gibberish? 72.197.144.4 23:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Should the Health, Health Concerns and Health Effects be in one section? Or maybe Health should be a bigger subhead since Nutritional, food safety, etc. are below it? It's a bit confusing having the health info in 3 places. Bob98133 13:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The study cited in the first paragraph of the longevity subsection does not give conclusive results. The 95% confidence intervals indicate that occasional meat eaters, fish eaters, and vegetarians have a lower death ratio than frequent meat eaters. However, it is impossible to distinguish statistically between these three groups or say anything conclusive whatsoever about the death ratio of vegans. This article's presentation of this study is therefore misleading.
YES - FISH IS "MEAT!" A Fish is not a PLANT!!! If someone eats Fish they are not vegetarian! -- Carlon 21:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not necessarily true. Fish for many reasons is considered different in many societies. The kind of vegetarianism that you are describing is Locto Ovo vegetarianism. Please cite sources before you make wild claims.
-- smkohnstamm 22:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary:
I am concerned about this section. Some of the claims and sources seem dubious to me; http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm in particular. It states that ammonia contributes to acid rain which seems quite ridiculous to me since ammonia is a basic compound - it would rather prevent acid rain than cause it. Sakkura 20:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, there seems to be blatant misleading misinformation; I am concerned about the following citation. "According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States' water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and a total of 70% of its grain.[ 56]" When both myself and a friend went through this citation, we find no support for any of the claims about livestock consumption as a percentage of crops grown! Be it water equivalence, corn, soy... such crops are listed, but I don't see anything about amounts of such crops and distributions to livestock versus to people. Check this out. If so, this should be removed altogether or perhaps some of citations on this (biased) page can be first verified and then used instead? Gwozda 09:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I've flagged that section as needing cleanup. It wasn't so much for the dubiously-sourced statements, but for a few completely unsourced statements and especially for the two paragraphs at the end. The tone suddenly changes to first-person plural ("we" are presumably farmers, or Americans, or the world in general), and the last few sentences all! end! with! an! exclamation! point! That sounds like somebody cut and pasted straight off of a veggie website. Even if it's all true, it doesn't sound intelligent enough for Wikipedia. 204.80.136.16 23:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Please add fact tags to the disputed statements, or provide specific issues of the text to clean up this section. If no issues are made the fact tag will be removed
Teardrop onthefire 09:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe I have found a source for It can be argued that vegetarians who use animal products aside from meat (dairy, eggs, fur, etc.) are also partially responsible it is however an investigation of a dairy related waste problem in vietnam, but there is non specific info in it to
http://www.idrc.ca/uploads/user-S/11502734231ChinhRR6.pdf. Does this source suffice?
Teardrop onthefire 09:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"Some vegetarians believe that consciously taking someone else's possessions without consent amounts to stealing. Since prey cannot consent to its life being taken away, according to this philosophy it would be immoral to consciously kill an animal and eat its flesh."
I removed this once, but someone put it back again (I think there was a misunderstanding of some sort). This just sounds like a joke to me - murder is bad because your "stealing" someone's life? That would be a great argument for a murder prosecutor, wouldn't it: Well this bloke killed someone, and since killing is essentially stealing a life, we should put him in prison for stealing! I don't want to be all rude and personal, but the person who wrote this comment, you're an idiot. Instead of writing for wikipedia you should take some sort of elementary classes in grasping what the hell do the words that you use amount to. WE KNOW THAT KILLING IS BAD!!! WE DON'T NEED THIS "EXPLAINED" TO US!!! 80.233.142.14 23:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Why is the "Religious and spiritual" so long and complete with sub-headings, when there is a sub-article titled Vegetarianism and religion? The vegetarianism article should only list a few introduction paragraphs on the subject, so the main article can be reduced in length. It is currently 66KB, with the recommended article size being 32KB. Readers can follow the link to the sub-article for further information. I recommend that the section is edited down in size (no sub-headings) with the text merged into the sub-article. Comments please. nirvana2013 08:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the bullet on shadowtariansim--it doesn't seem to merit inclusion under "commonly associated with vegetarianism. It needs a reference, particularly as google presently has zero hits for it. Here's what I deleted with a couple of the typos fixed:
Perhaps there could be a section on "less common practices...", but even so, this one seems hard to justify inclusion in wikipedia without its notability documented. Ccrrccrr 16:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I consider myself a vegetarian, yet I do eat fish, and many of my vegan friends do indeed use (but not consume) animal products. I believe the first few sentences of this article are somewhat biased. -- MosheA 04:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Vegetarians don't eat any meat, even fish. Vegans don't deal with ANY animal products, even clothing. It's what they essentially are. This isn't biased, it's the truth. 76.177.56.8 01:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I have corrected Etymology, added references, and made it a separate section (instead of a subsection of History), because it is more than just an aspect of history. Etymology is connected with a term’s definition and is as close to the Definition and Terminology sections as it is to History. 89.54.129.128 15:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
:The way the etmology paragraph is described is largely historical, so I don't see a problem with keeping it within the larger Historical sub-heading.
Gouranga(UK) 08:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Even if the claim has much evidence against it, still it could be worth noting as a notable piece of information. Especially as the OED also makes reference to it. Gouranga(UK) 10:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy that the terminology section identifies the main forms of vegetarianism (lacto, ovo, lacto-ovo, vegan) but I'm not happy with the follow on section that describes diets associated with vegetarianism. In particular some of these diets are vegetarianism even though they are fringe practices that have no place in the main section. I would advocate splitting that section into "Other varieties" and "Other dietary practices commonly associated with vegetarianism". For my money dietary veganism has no place on the list because it's refining a definition that belongs in another article (the veganism described in the main varieties section is dietary veganism for the purposes of this article). Natural hygiene can probably be deleted altogether. ryker 21:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact there is a lack of clarity elsewhere in the article with respect to the term vegan. The question is whether the term vegan refers to diet (food consumption), lifestyle (goods consumption), or both. Even the cited references are in conflict on this question. Since I feel that all lifestyle vegans are dietary vegans, it is appropriate to equate veganism with dietary veganism. Lifestyle veganism goes a step further, it specialises veganism, so it would be appropriate to use an additional adjective when you want to specifically refer to this practice. Thoughts? ryker 21:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The section of Physiology begins "There is considerable debate over whether humans are physiologically better suited to a herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore diet."
I almost edited this but then thought maybe I'd open it for discussion instead. My understanding is that a carnivore lives wholly or predmoniantly on meat - and this accords with what Wiki says if you follow the link to "Carnivore". But since "Omnivore" is also mentioned in the statement, it is logical to assume it is being used here to suggest a diet consisting wholly of meat.
Surely no-one would consider that the human body is designed for a diet consisting wholly of meat? It has to be "Herbivore or omnivore". A carnivorous diet would result in death from malnutrition! If I'm wrong, maybe sources are needed to support the statement that some consider carnivorous diets beneficial.
I’ve replaced the list of miscellaneous incoherent statements by a coherent chronological account of the history of vegetarianism. Some of the statements in the list lacked evidence, others should be moved to the section on religion, as they deal with present religious attitudes rather than with history. Moreover, contemporary religious attitudes are the topic of a separate article “Religion and vegetarianism”. I also replaced non-scholarly references by academic ones. I am sorry some of them are in German; this is due to the fact that the original research happened to be done by German scholars. 89.49.163.76 17:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the "steadily" from the "grew over the 20th C" part of the history section. I would be happy to see if restored with a citation. I might as well have added citation needed to it, but since it was only the "steadily" part that worried me I decided to just address that. Ccrrccrr 11:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
"Vegetarianism may have been common in the Indian subcontinent as early as the 2nd millennium BCE [1]." This is just speculation. The earliest available evidence refers to the 6th century BCE. Surely it may have been common in the 2nd millennium BCE, but on the same grounds one may guess that it may have been common in the 3rd and 4th millennium BCE ... According to Indian religious texts, it was already common two million years ago. And if you look up the reference, it's just a non-scholarly website, and what they write is: "The rise of vegetarianism in India goes back to more than 500 BC, when India saw the rise of Buddhism and Jainism. These religions preached the principle of ahimsa or "non-violence. During the ancient Aryan Vedic period meat was consumed after animal sacrifice to the Gods. This slowly changed with the rise of Jainism and Buddhisim." So that's precisely the opposite of "as early as the second millennium BCE". 89.49.187.156 12:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The second part of the new condensed history section seems to be o.k.; in the sentence "The International Vegetarian Union, a union of all the national societies, was founded in 1908" I suggest to remove the word "all" (which was not in the old text) - who knows whether each and every of the countless organizations in so many countries has joined the International Union. But the first part of the section contains some flaws (in addition to the one already mentioned above): The motivation of the early Pythagoreans was ethical and religious, hardly nutritional (in the modern sense of that word). The long quote from Ovid is not helpful here, because Ovid was a poet who lived several centuries after Pythagoras, and his poem is not a reliable source for the historical Pythagoras; Ovid's text is as fictional as a modern historical novel - in fact, even more so, because he tells myths. No scholar accepts it as a reliable source. Instead of the present text, I suggest the following: "As far as the sources allow us to trace the roots of vegetarianism, it originated in India and, independently, in the ancient Greek civilization which flourished in the eastern Mediterranean and in Southern Italy. In both areas it was, according to the earliest evidence, closely connected with the idea of nonviolence towards animals, and was promoted by minority groups as an essential part of their religious philosophies. After the Christianization of the Roman Empire in late antiquity it disappeared in Europe as a deliberate concept. Many medieval monks ate little or no meat for ascetic reasons, but they ate fish and were no vegetarians. In Europe vegetarianism only reemerged in the Renaissance. It became a worldwide movement in the 19th and 20th centuries. In 1847 the first Vegetarian Society was founded in England. The International Vegetarian Union, a union of the national societies, ... (etc. as in the present text)." References can be added. 89.49.187.156 15:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
does this mean chicken or all fowl? meaning: where does turkey fit in? PooperScooper, Int'l 22:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Since no reply came on the source of environmental issues of dairy I added it. The template for adding sources has been on this section for some time now, please provide more information as to what should be rewritten or sourced, if no comment follows I will remove the template as of 1 October Teardrop onthefire 08:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
There's various articles like Lacto-ovo vegetarianism that look destined to be little more than dictionary definitions with little 'hard' content otherwise - should these be merged back into this article? FlagSteward 13:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The table for the 'types of vegetarianism', the last column has a header that is not formatted correctly. I am not sure how to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.96.234.80 ( talk) 02:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Antiveg - The reference about vegetarianism improving conditions for slaughterhouse workers does not state that they would become unemployed. Using the reference you cited is a huge jump from anything stated in the article and from the topic of vegetarianism. Why not cite stats that vegetarianism will reduce illegal immigration since recent raids on slaughterhouses have found many undocumented workers? While there may be proof that unemployment causes the problems stated in your ancient reference, there is no indication that vegetarianism will cause unemployment in the slaughterhouse sector. In fact, my guess is that there are more vegetarians now than ever before; and also more slaughterhouse workers, so it could be argued that vegetarianism is a boon to that job field. Bob98133 18:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Here are the first two paragraphs:
If we define vegetarianism as not eating flesh and slaughter by-products, it does not make sense to then say "there are some variations that allow milk." Since it was never suggested in the definition that milk is not allowed, saying that there are some "variations" that allow it doesn't logically follow.
If fact, there are some variations that also do not allow dairy products, besides the aforementioned flesh. The next paragraph already states this well: "veganism, in comparison..."
To suggest that milk-drinking is some "variation" of vegetarianism is like saying lettuce-eating is a "variation" of keeping kosher — eating lettuce is not part of the definition of kosher, milk-drinking is not part of the definition of vegetarianism. If you want to amend the definition you have up, that's a different matter.
Therefore, I've removed the line starting with "there are variations..." again. — Sam 15:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Although the latest edits by User:Lovedeep singh were reverted for whatever reasons, some parts of these edits might be useful for this article, or a future subarticle on this topic. The material appears to be cited from Guru Granth Sahib, and might be used at an appropriate place on wikipedia. The inserted material follows. deeptrivia ( talk) 03:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Everyone know's that it's very crucial to abstain from the eating of meat because this increases our karmas, the reasons for becoming vegetarian. Some examples from Sikh Guru’s Hymns that teaches us to not eat meat.
1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (Guru Granth Sahib p1377)
2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (Guru Granth Sahib p332)
3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (Guru Granth Sahib p1350)
4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but, which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (Guru Granth Sahib p1374)
5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (Guru Granth Sahib p1242
6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)
7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)
8.Jey "Ratt" lageey kapra, jama hoi palit, Jey Ratt peeveh manava, ta kyo nirmal cheet. Meaning: If blood touches a cloth, it becomes unfit for use; If blood (or meat) is consumed by a human being, how can his heart be pure. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib)
9. Janam Sakhi Gou bhens ateh murgian haiwan garib,tin par shuri haram hai khavan tenah palit.In these verse of janam sakhi Guru Nanak mentions that killing of cows buffalos,hens,is considered haram.
10. Bhai Gurdas ji tells about the inhabitants of kaljug "Maran Gou Garib Nu Dharti Upar Paap Pasara" .They have started to kill the cow and the weak thus the earth have been covered with sins.
11.The Animal Killer Will Become an Animal and Be Killed By killing animals, not only will we be bereft of the human form but we will have to take an animal form and somehow or other be killed by the same type of animal we have killed. This is the law of nature. The Sanskrit word "mamsa" means meat. It is said: "mam sah khadatiti mamsah". That means, "I am now eating the flesh of an animal who some day in the future be eating my flesh". The choice is yours think for yourself .Baba Kabir ji says "Kabir Jor Kia So Julm Hai, Lehat Jawaab Khudai"
12. Innumerable are the fools, stark blind in ignorance; and
What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature? Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee. Whatever pleaseth Thee is good; Thou art forevermore; O Formless One ! -Adi Granth ( Japji, Pauree 18, Guru Nanak Dev ji) Countless fools, blinded by ignorance. Countless thieves and embezzlers. Countless impose their will by force. Countless butchers (cut-throats) and ruthless killers. Countless sinners who keep on sinning. Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies. Countless wretches, eating meat (filth) as their diet. Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads. Nanak describes the state of the lowly. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), Ang 4, Japji Sahib: Pauree 18 13 .Kabir says at another place: "Maas madha sabh tajj daloo, ho gyan ghore aswar ." Meaning: Stop taking meat and wine, ride the horse of perfect knowledge and remove your doubt.
I removed the paragraph on farm animal excrement because 1.) the claim that this destroys topsoil needs to be reconciled with the fact that topsoil health is generally regarded as dependent on the return of human/animal excrement. 2.) Comparing farm animal excrement to the human population's requires a number on the animal population under comparison. 3.) Source identifiers as simply the last names of two indivduals seem inadequate. Rtdrury ( talk) 20:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute, raised by an anonymous user, over this sentence:
“Other scientific evidence debunks the notion that humans are omnivores, while scientific arguments hold that humans are much more anatomically similar to true herbivores, with long intestinal tracks and blunt teeth, as opposed to omnivores and carnivores” [26]
The user claims the source is an opinion and not scientific.I disagree, but still, there should be more authoritative sources out there, and two or more of such sources could be added to back this sentence up. Anyone else want to chime in on this? Okiefromokla's sockpuppet/ talk 22:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The introduction of Milton contains a review of literature describing the similarities between the human gut and herbivore guts. Then it discusses the development of meat eating. Thus is can be cited both for both. Note that the text that got removed and reinstated does not claim that humans are "naturally" herbivores (whatever that would mean). It only describes anatomy. One quote from Milton: "Thus, using data from various lines of evidence, there seems to be general consensus that humans come from an ancestral lineage that was strongly dependent on plant foods."
Perhaps the disputed text should be expanded, but I don't see why it should be deleted. Ccrrccrr ( talk) 01:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The article seems rather positivistic about veganism, not really mentioning the recommended supplementation of diet with vitamin B12. It implies that sufficient B12 can be gotten by humans from plant sources, an idea that is largely dismissed according to my reading. See the article on vitamin B12.
The Vegetarianism article states among other things:
How about NO B12 whatsoever in ANY unmodified vegetable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk) 21:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The article provided by your link doesn't say much about B12. The Vegan Society article linked to within it says this:
Vitamin B12 deficiency, from what I've read, can cause serious and sometimes irreversible brain damage, so it isn't something to trifle with. When it is "in plants" it is apparently from bacteria, not from the plant. (I don't mean to be secretive by not signing in. I've forgotten my password and haven't bothered to set up another account.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk) 18:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm only slightly trying to be polemical in this. However, the matter at hand is really one of science and facts. Where is the American Diatetic Association info available? I haven't abandoned my original question. What are the plant sources for B12? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk) 01:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Right you are, I missed that. However, I'm not sure the WP article really covers the issue in this statement:
It seems to state that B12 is available in "collard greens, leafy greens, tempeh and tofu."
Then this is somewhat optimistic, though it seems to be on both sides of the fence at once:
"Varies widely" seems to indicate that some plants have substantially more than others.
Then, the ADA article you link says this:
That seems to argue against "varies widely."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.198.66.70 ( talk)
Well, well, well - the same endless arguing here and there. I don't mean to be offensive or cynic in any way, but these kind of disputes generally doesn't have more sense than arguing about the possibilities of space flight. I mean, there are other cultures (surprised?), where vegetarianism has been practiced since thousands of years.
And in the modern societies - the world of so-called intelligent, ethical beings - the general judgment sounds like this: "Oh my god, there is one percent chance that I will suffer form slight deprivation disease in a world of diabetes, obesity, cancer, polluted air, polluted water and polluted land! Then I'll rather kill animals for meat."
Seriously: Please, wake up. Our body, our health and our wealth doesn't have an absolute value. These are not sanctuaries, but just empty shelters - shelters for consciousness and humaneness, which gives the meaning of life. Our body, our health and our wealth will never be complete, but in consciousness and humaneness we can compete and be complete. Not doing any unnecessary harm to animals is our greatest chance to achieve any kind of inner well being.
Anyway; have a peaceful night.
- a moron from Hungary (of course, what else could I be...?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baratgab ( talk • contribs) 22:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I started reviewing the studies that were cited and they did not have the results indicated in the new text. They were not "all" studies, in the first reference just six studies and even those were not entirely conclusive. Also, these were not the "most recent" but were published 5 years ago - 2003. Same story with the second reference. Referencing is great, but these references didn't support the text that was added. Conclusion or discussion that said that the results "may" indicate something were taken as fact, etc. The info might be correct, but the references were not appropriate. Bob98133 ( talk) 15:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)