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The original vaquero was actually the first cowboy and I am about to sandbox an article to that effect. (I am also a major contributor to cowboy, if it matters). However, am trying to figure out how to title it and would actually like to invoke WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and use this title, moving this to a disambig page. Does anyone out there care or have an issue with this? Montanabw (talk) 22:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
'...and other Spanish settlers brought their cattle-raising traditions...'
The warriors that defeated the native empires such as the Aztecs were comprised primarily of local indigenous enemies, not Europeans. After the defeat of the Aztecs, among those arriving from Europe there would’ve been plenty of settlers and colonists, and they would’ve have been the ones assigned the tasks of introducing the cattle raising traditions mentioned in this article. Soldiers and warriors would have had other duties and responsibilities to attend to in the colonies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.117.190 ( talk) 13:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Where would tribal fashion/era fit in? It seems that they are redefining what vaquero means. If you have no idea what I am talking about please look up the Guarachero fashion, and Mexican long pointy (and flamboyant) boots? thanks
76.172.76.170 ( talk) 07:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm OK with the horse handler words derived from Arabic words related to cattle, but we may need more sources. However, I think Wehr is wrong that šakīma, means "bit" or "bridle", as the derivation goes from Persian "hakma" to Arabic šakīma to Spanish "jacquima," which became English "hackamore." I'll admit "bridle" is used (somewhat inaccurately) to mean "headstall" because even in English people call hackamores a "bridle" even though the OED is pretty clear that a true "bridle" has a bit. If you blow this image up large enough to read the lettering File:Hackamore to bit.jpg you will note that the Spanish freno is translated as "bit." (says this right above the sketch of the bit shank, toward the bottom). I realize a poster isn't necessarily a verifiable source, but in this context, the rest of the poster is correct on terminology as it is used in the Americas, so I'm pretty confident that they aren't that far off -- Google tells me modern translations of "freno" include brake, curb or bridle [1]. I won't go to the mat for Google, but their modern use translates "bridle" as brida or freno [2], not jaquima, Google is no help for "bit" or "mouthpiece" from English into Spanish as regards horses, it appears. Montanabw (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Or read what I wrote earlier, if you prefer. You cast doubts on the accuracy of Wehr, though I'm not clear on exactly what grounds. Anyway, I am pleased to discover that Lane is available online, here among many other places, so why not just check the meanings for yourself instead of relying on what others say? Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 09:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Follow up -- looks like you are right on "sakima" -- found a different source from one of my old edits (includes a ref to the 2008 OED) that backs up the bit and bridle thing. See hackamore. Still weird to have the equipment in question move around. But I'll publicly mea culpa on this one that you are accurate here. Montanabw (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
The article at present suffers from frequent vague references to "traditions" without much specific information as to exactly what these "traditions" consist of. Without such specifics, the article reads more like a foggy, nostalgic paean to a fading way of life than a genuinely encyclopedic article. Poihths ( talk) 11:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Request declined: See explanation below. Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC) Please add section:
The University of Texas-Pan American and The University of Texas-Brownsville will merge together in the Fall of 2015. [1] Guy Bailey, the first President of the newly created University of Texas-Rio Grande Valley, chose the 'Vaqueros' as the new university mascot on November 5th, 2014. The University of Texas Board of Regents unanimously approved his decision the very next day. [2] An online petition against the choice quickly sprouted and gained over 10,000 signatures in the matter of a few days. [3] Hundreds of students at the University of Texas-Pan American and University of Texas-Brownsville protested the decision. [4] A separate petition was initiated, gaining over 700 signatures, and called for the immediate resignation of UT-RGV President Guy Bailey. [5] Leaders of this movement include former University of Texas-Pan American alumni Alex Del Barrio.
References
More to the point, it doesn't belong here any more than a debate about sports mascots named cowboys belongs there. This belongs at the University of Texas-Pan American and the University of Texas-Brownsville articles, or possibly in a separate article about the controversy. The topic probably has sufficient news coverage to warrant mention on the pages about these schools. Montanabw (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think you can justify that "English" or East coast herding traditions had any impact on either California or Texas vaquero "traditions," and certainly not before 1850. Can you name a piece of equipment or a herding practice that came from the east?
The Mexico-to-California practices are described in William Heath Davis' 75 Years in California, among other places. Describes: round up or rodeo with several ranchers attending, to separate branded cattle; herding by groups of 25 cows with one bull; slaughter at a matanza; slaughter method; el coleo or collar; roping method; taming cabestros and their use; and vaquero fun and games.
Andrew Sluyter's Black Ranching Frontiers develops the Spanish tradition via Mexico considerably, inlcuding use of desjarretaderra. He has an interesting theory that Vera Cruz blacks developed the saddle horn.
So what is left for East coast cattle raisers to contribute, except new genetic strains of cattle? Barbgal16 ( talk) 17:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
It is interesting that there is an article about “Vaquero” considering that a Vaquero is nothing more than a job or trade a peasant would do; Vaquero just means “cattle-herder.” I’ve notice that in the US the Vaquero holds a very high place, mostly do to the fact that people ignore history. Vaquero is just a job, one of the many jobs a peasant or countryman would do, nothing more nothing less.
The Mexican cattle-herding and equestrian traditions did not come from Spain nor developed there. Both traditions are very different. Remember that most countries have some sort of cattle-herding tradition, each very different from the other. The horse riding style known as “Jineta” or “Gineta” or “Xeneta” comes from Africa and was introduced by Aficans and Arabs during the 700 year conquest of the Ibearian peninsula. The Spaniardsa and Portuguese adopted the style as did the French and Italians. But when it was brought to Mexico it developed differently as it was the only riding style available and according to Vargas de Machuca it was perfected in those lands. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of cattle herding in Europe, including Spain, was done on FOOT, not on horseback, only a small minority in the isolated areas of southern Spain did cattle herding on horseback and most were Arabs or Moors. All cattle herding in Mexico was and is done on horseback.
Every other cattle-herding technique was developed indigenously in Mexico as the Old World techniques were useless in such a vast land and with greater amounts of cattle. So while a Spanish or Portuguese herder uses a “garrocha” or pole to drive cattle a Mexican uses a Lasso, for example.
As I said before “Vaquero” just means “cattle-herder” In Spanish, on of the many jobs or trades a peasant would do. Within the Mexican Ranching system there were other jobs like a “Caporal” who was the boss of the “Vaqueros.” The Caporal was more skillful and got a higher wage and rode better horses and saddles than the Vaquero. The Caporal began working as a Vaquero until he was promoted to Caporal. There were other jobs like “Caballerango,” “Arrendador” or “Amansador,” and “Mayordomo.” Within the Spanish Cortijo (Spain’s versión of a Ranch) system there are only two jobs related to cattle herding the “Garrochista” also known as a Vaquero and the “Mayoral.” This is due to the fact that cattle ranches in Spain have always been small, compared to the Mexican ones, having up to 5000 heads of cattle.
As Vaquero is just a job, the correct word to describe this horsemen wearing those colorful costumes and hats with huge spurs on their feet was “Ranchero” or “Charro.” Charro, which means “Gaudy,” is the nickname given to Rancheros in Mexico because of their peculiar way of dressing.
I think this article should be modified to explain all of this as there are many mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:5806:3200:20A6:9656:861B:FD4D ( talk) 20:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
It is interesting that there is an article about “Vaquero” considering that a Vaquero is nothing more than a job or trade a peasant would do; Vaquero just means “cattle-herder.” I’ve notice that in the US the Vaquero holds a very high place, mostly do to the fact that people ignore history. Vaquero is just a job, one of the many jobs a peasant or countryman would do, nothing more nothing less.
The Mexican cattle-herding and equestrian traditions did not come from Spain nor developed there. Both traditions are very different. Remember that most countries have some sort of cattle-herding tradition, each very different from the other. The horse riding style known as “Jineta” or “Gineta” or “Xeneta” comes from Africa and was introduced by Aficans and Arabs during the 700 year conquest of the Ibearian peninsula. The Spaniardsa and Portuguese adopted the style as did the French and Italians. But when it was brought to Mexico it developed differently as it was the only riding style available and according to Vargas de Machuca it was perfected in those lands. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of cattle herding in Europe, including Spain, was done on FOOT, not on horseback, only a small minority in the isolated areas of southern Spain did cattle herding on horseback and most were Arabs or Moors. All cattle herding in Mexico was and is done on horseback.
Every other cattle-herding technique was developed indigenously in Mexico as the Old World techniques were useless in such a vast land and with greater amounts of cattle. So while a Spanish or Portuguese herder uses a “garrocha” or pole to drive cattle a Mexican uses a Lasso, for example.
As I said before “Vaquero” just means “cattle-herder” In Spanish, on of the many jobs or trades a peasant would do. Within the Mexican Ranching system there were other jobs like a “Caporal” who was the boss of the “Vaqueros.” The Caporal was more skillful and got a higher wage and rode better horses and saddles than the Vaquero. The Caporal began working as a Vaquero until he was promoted to Caporal. There were other jobs like “Caballerango,” “Arrendador” or “Amansador,” and “Mayordomo.” Within the Spanish Cortijo (Spain’s versión of a Ranch) system there are only two jobs related to cattle herding the “Garrochista” also known as a Vaquero and the “Mayoral.” This is due to the fact that cattle ranches in Spain have always been small, compared to the Mexican ones, having up to 5000 heads of cattle.
As Vaquero is just a job, the correct word to describe this horsemen wearing those colorful costumes and hats with huge spurs on their feet was “Ranchero” or “Charro.” Charro, which means “Gaudy,” is the nickname given to Rancheros in Mexico because of their peculiar way of dressing.
I think this article should be modified to explain all of this as there are many mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:5806:3200:20A6:9656:861B:FD4D ( talk) 20:47, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Can I do an overhaul or rewrite of the article? For the last couple of months I’ve been adding new information, but I’m always afraid that I might piss off someone and they end up erasing what I’ve done. While I believe the current article is a great start, I think it should be expanded using more reliable sources. Nortekman ( talk) 00:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The original vaquero was actually the first cowboy and I am about to sandbox an article to that effect. (I am also a major contributor to cowboy, if it matters). However, am trying to figure out how to title it and would actually like to invoke WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and use this title, moving this to a disambig page. Does anyone out there care or have an issue with this? Montanabw (talk) 22:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
'...and other Spanish settlers brought their cattle-raising traditions...'
The warriors that defeated the native empires such as the Aztecs were comprised primarily of local indigenous enemies, not Europeans. After the defeat of the Aztecs, among those arriving from Europe there would’ve been plenty of settlers and colonists, and they would’ve have been the ones assigned the tasks of introducing the cattle raising traditions mentioned in this article. Soldiers and warriors would have had other duties and responsibilities to attend to in the colonies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.117.190 ( talk) 13:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Where would tribal fashion/era fit in? It seems that they are redefining what vaquero means. If you have no idea what I am talking about please look up the Guarachero fashion, and Mexican long pointy (and flamboyant) boots? thanks
76.172.76.170 ( talk) 07:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm OK with the horse handler words derived from Arabic words related to cattle, but we may need more sources. However, I think Wehr is wrong that šakīma, means "bit" or "bridle", as the derivation goes from Persian "hakma" to Arabic šakīma to Spanish "jacquima," which became English "hackamore." I'll admit "bridle" is used (somewhat inaccurately) to mean "headstall" because even in English people call hackamores a "bridle" even though the OED is pretty clear that a true "bridle" has a bit. If you blow this image up large enough to read the lettering File:Hackamore to bit.jpg you will note that the Spanish freno is translated as "bit." (says this right above the sketch of the bit shank, toward the bottom). I realize a poster isn't necessarily a verifiable source, but in this context, the rest of the poster is correct on terminology as it is used in the Americas, so I'm pretty confident that they aren't that far off -- Google tells me modern translations of "freno" include brake, curb or bridle [1]. I won't go to the mat for Google, but their modern use translates "bridle" as brida or freno [2], not jaquima, Google is no help for "bit" or "mouthpiece" from English into Spanish as regards horses, it appears. Montanabw (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Or read what I wrote earlier, if you prefer. You cast doubts on the accuracy of Wehr, though I'm not clear on exactly what grounds. Anyway, I am pleased to discover that Lane is available online, here among many other places, so why not just check the meanings for yourself instead of relying on what others say? Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 09:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Follow up -- looks like you are right on "sakima" -- found a different source from one of my old edits (includes a ref to the 2008 OED) that backs up the bit and bridle thing. See hackamore. Still weird to have the equipment in question move around. But I'll publicly mea culpa on this one that you are accurate here. Montanabw (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
The article at present suffers from frequent vague references to "traditions" without much specific information as to exactly what these "traditions" consist of. Without such specifics, the article reads more like a foggy, nostalgic paean to a fading way of life than a genuinely encyclopedic article. Poihths ( talk) 11:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Request declined: See explanation below. Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC) Please add section:
The University of Texas-Pan American and The University of Texas-Brownsville will merge together in the Fall of 2015. [1] Guy Bailey, the first President of the newly created University of Texas-Rio Grande Valley, chose the 'Vaqueros' as the new university mascot on November 5th, 2014. The University of Texas Board of Regents unanimously approved his decision the very next day. [2] An online petition against the choice quickly sprouted and gained over 10,000 signatures in the matter of a few days. [3] Hundreds of students at the University of Texas-Pan American and University of Texas-Brownsville protested the decision. [4] A separate petition was initiated, gaining over 700 signatures, and called for the immediate resignation of UT-RGV President Guy Bailey. [5] Leaders of this movement include former University of Texas-Pan American alumni Alex Del Barrio.
References
More to the point, it doesn't belong here any more than a debate about sports mascots named cowboys belongs there. This belongs at the University of Texas-Pan American and the University of Texas-Brownsville articles, or possibly in a separate article about the controversy. The topic probably has sufficient news coverage to warrant mention on the pages about these schools. Montanabw (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think you can justify that "English" or East coast herding traditions had any impact on either California or Texas vaquero "traditions," and certainly not before 1850. Can you name a piece of equipment or a herding practice that came from the east?
The Mexico-to-California practices are described in William Heath Davis' 75 Years in California, among other places. Describes: round up or rodeo with several ranchers attending, to separate branded cattle; herding by groups of 25 cows with one bull; slaughter at a matanza; slaughter method; el coleo or collar; roping method; taming cabestros and their use; and vaquero fun and games.
Andrew Sluyter's Black Ranching Frontiers develops the Spanish tradition via Mexico considerably, inlcuding use of desjarretaderra. He has an interesting theory that Vera Cruz blacks developed the saddle horn.
So what is left for East coast cattle raisers to contribute, except new genetic strains of cattle? Barbgal16 ( talk) 17:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
It is interesting that there is an article about “Vaquero” considering that a Vaquero is nothing more than a job or trade a peasant would do; Vaquero just means “cattle-herder.” I’ve notice that in the US the Vaquero holds a very high place, mostly do to the fact that people ignore history. Vaquero is just a job, one of the many jobs a peasant or countryman would do, nothing more nothing less.
The Mexican cattle-herding and equestrian traditions did not come from Spain nor developed there. Both traditions are very different. Remember that most countries have some sort of cattle-herding tradition, each very different from the other. The horse riding style known as “Jineta” or “Gineta” or “Xeneta” comes from Africa and was introduced by Aficans and Arabs during the 700 year conquest of the Ibearian peninsula. The Spaniardsa and Portuguese adopted the style as did the French and Italians. But when it was brought to Mexico it developed differently as it was the only riding style available and according to Vargas de Machuca it was perfected in those lands. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of cattle herding in Europe, including Spain, was done on FOOT, not on horseback, only a small minority in the isolated areas of southern Spain did cattle herding on horseback and most were Arabs or Moors. All cattle herding in Mexico was and is done on horseback.
Every other cattle-herding technique was developed indigenously in Mexico as the Old World techniques were useless in such a vast land and with greater amounts of cattle. So while a Spanish or Portuguese herder uses a “garrocha” or pole to drive cattle a Mexican uses a Lasso, for example.
As I said before “Vaquero” just means “cattle-herder” In Spanish, on of the many jobs or trades a peasant would do. Within the Mexican Ranching system there were other jobs like a “Caporal” who was the boss of the “Vaqueros.” The Caporal was more skillful and got a higher wage and rode better horses and saddles than the Vaquero. The Caporal began working as a Vaquero until he was promoted to Caporal. There were other jobs like “Caballerango,” “Arrendador” or “Amansador,” and “Mayordomo.” Within the Spanish Cortijo (Spain’s versión of a Ranch) system there are only two jobs related to cattle herding the “Garrochista” also known as a Vaquero and the “Mayoral.” This is due to the fact that cattle ranches in Spain have always been small, compared to the Mexican ones, having up to 5000 heads of cattle.
As Vaquero is just a job, the correct word to describe this horsemen wearing those colorful costumes and hats with huge spurs on their feet was “Ranchero” or “Charro.” Charro, which means “Gaudy,” is the nickname given to Rancheros in Mexico because of their peculiar way of dressing.
I think this article should be modified to explain all of this as there are many mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:5806:3200:20A6:9656:861B:FD4D ( talk) 20:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
It is interesting that there is an article about “Vaquero” considering that a Vaquero is nothing more than a job or trade a peasant would do; Vaquero just means “cattle-herder.” I’ve notice that in the US the Vaquero holds a very high place, mostly do to the fact that people ignore history. Vaquero is just a job, one of the many jobs a peasant or countryman would do, nothing more nothing less.
The Mexican cattle-herding and equestrian traditions did not come from Spain nor developed there. Both traditions are very different. Remember that most countries have some sort of cattle-herding tradition, each very different from the other. The horse riding style known as “Jineta” or “Gineta” or “Xeneta” comes from Africa and was introduced by Aficans and Arabs during the 700 year conquest of the Ibearian peninsula. The Spaniardsa and Portuguese adopted the style as did the French and Italians. But when it was brought to Mexico it developed differently as it was the only riding style available and according to Vargas de Machuca it was perfected in those lands. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of cattle herding in Europe, including Spain, was done on FOOT, not on horseback, only a small minority in the isolated areas of southern Spain did cattle herding on horseback and most were Arabs or Moors. All cattle herding in Mexico was and is done on horseback.
Every other cattle-herding technique was developed indigenously in Mexico as the Old World techniques were useless in such a vast land and with greater amounts of cattle. So while a Spanish or Portuguese herder uses a “garrocha” or pole to drive cattle a Mexican uses a Lasso, for example.
As I said before “Vaquero” just means “cattle-herder” In Spanish, on of the many jobs or trades a peasant would do. Within the Mexican Ranching system there were other jobs like a “Caporal” who was the boss of the “Vaqueros.” The Caporal was more skillful and got a higher wage and rode better horses and saddles than the Vaquero. The Caporal began working as a Vaquero until he was promoted to Caporal. There were other jobs like “Caballerango,” “Arrendador” or “Amansador,” and “Mayordomo.” Within the Spanish Cortijo (Spain’s versión of a Ranch) system there are only two jobs related to cattle herding the “Garrochista” also known as a Vaquero and the “Mayoral.” This is due to the fact that cattle ranches in Spain have always been small, compared to the Mexican ones, having up to 5000 heads of cattle.
As Vaquero is just a job, the correct word to describe this horsemen wearing those colorful costumes and hats with huge spurs on their feet was “Ranchero” or “Charro.” Charro, which means “Gaudy,” is the nickname given to Rancheros in Mexico because of their peculiar way of dressing.
I think this article should be modified to explain all of this as there are many mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:5806:3200:20A6:9656:861B:FD4D ( talk) 20:47, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Can I do an overhaul or rewrite of the article? For the last couple of months I’ve been adding new information, but I’m always afraid that I might piss off someone and they end up erasing what I’ve done. While I believe the current article is a great start, I think it should be expanded using more reliable sources. Nortekman ( talk) 00:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)