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I've again reverted the recent addition to the lead. Namely;
He is one of the most acclaimed and renowned songwriters of the rock era. [1]
It has been suggested that this is a summary. Which would be fair enough, but I don't see anything in the article that establishes this as a fact. And if it was, as the lead is supposed to be, a summary of sourced content in the article, then we wouldn't be citing a source there.
I don't dispute that Morrison has been acclaimed and renowned. Nor do I dispute that Paul Sexton is of this opinion. But if we are to state such a bold statement in the lead it would be nice for it to be clearer on what basis it is being made. How was it determined that he is "one of the most". Who performed this measurement? Against what other artists?
I would suggest that there are better and more factual ways to demonstrate the regard Morrison is held in, without this apparent peacockery. It sounds rather like a claim that could be made of hundreds of artists, so perhaps we can have something that is more informative for the reader? -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:40, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
References
Surely the lead of an article should focus on basic facts, such as where the subject is from, what they have done as a profession, etc.
This instead uses words like "sublime" in the opening paragraph which are subjective and better left for later in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:DC08:9000:B4F4:1ADA:65E7:A55C ( talk) 00:22, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
There has been disagreements about the wording of the lead for some years. Recently I moved the lead back closer to what it was when it went through GA, but that has been reverted with the concern that the language is not neutral and uses peacock terms. At the same time, to follow guidance in MOS:LEAD, we need to " identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences." When someone has been prominently praised it can be difficult to square the circle of saying enough to meet the requirements of MOS:LEAD without appearing to be individually praising someone and so falling foul of NPOV and Peacock. What wording should we have in the lead paragraph that quickly sums up for the reader why Morrison is notable. At the moment we simply have that he is Irish, that he plays instruments, and that he has had a lengthy career. We need more than that to meet the guidance of LEAD, and to give the general reader some explanation as to why he is notable. Suggestions? SilkTork ( talk) 08:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
a critically acclaimed Northern Irish singer and songwriterin the first sentence. The
stubborn, idiosyncratic, and sublimeline is a textbook example of WP:PUFF. Something like that should not be said in WP:WIKIVOICE, though I'm not opposed to quotations. Also, the lede used the word “acclaimed” three times...way overkill. Novemberjazz 03:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
So what it the most responsible way for us editors to deal with this on the page? I think it needs to be recorded. Realitylink ( talk) 04:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. That has been done today and almost word-for-word what I had in draft form! Great communication. We wait and watch to see what emerges as I am sure this story has more distance to go. Realitylink ( talk) 05:57, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Van Morrison article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | Van Morrison has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on August 31, 2018. | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I've again reverted the recent addition to the lead. Namely;
He is one of the most acclaimed and renowned songwriters of the rock era. [1]
It has been suggested that this is a summary. Which would be fair enough, but I don't see anything in the article that establishes this as a fact. And if it was, as the lead is supposed to be, a summary of sourced content in the article, then we wouldn't be citing a source there.
I don't dispute that Morrison has been acclaimed and renowned. Nor do I dispute that Paul Sexton is of this opinion. But if we are to state such a bold statement in the lead it would be nice for it to be clearer on what basis it is being made. How was it determined that he is "one of the most". Who performed this measurement? Against what other artists?
I would suggest that there are better and more factual ways to demonstrate the regard Morrison is held in, without this apparent peacockery. It sounds rather like a claim that could be made of hundreds of artists, so perhaps we can have something that is more informative for the reader? -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:40, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
References
Surely the lead of an article should focus on basic facts, such as where the subject is from, what they have done as a profession, etc.
This instead uses words like "sublime" in the opening paragraph which are subjective and better left for later in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:DC08:9000:B4F4:1ADA:65E7:A55C ( talk) 00:22, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
There has been disagreements about the wording of the lead for some years. Recently I moved the lead back closer to what it was when it went through GA, but that has been reverted with the concern that the language is not neutral and uses peacock terms. At the same time, to follow guidance in MOS:LEAD, we need to " identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences." When someone has been prominently praised it can be difficult to square the circle of saying enough to meet the requirements of MOS:LEAD without appearing to be individually praising someone and so falling foul of NPOV and Peacock. What wording should we have in the lead paragraph that quickly sums up for the reader why Morrison is notable. At the moment we simply have that he is Irish, that he plays instruments, and that he has had a lengthy career. We need more than that to meet the guidance of LEAD, and to give the general reader some explanation as to why he is notable. Suggestions? SilkTork ( talk) 08:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
a critically acclaimed Northern Irish singer and songwriterin the first sentence. The
stubborn, idiosyncratic, and sublimeline is a textbook example of WP:PUFF. Something like that should not be said in WP:WIKIVOICE, though I'm not opposed to quotations. Also, the lede used the word “acclaimed” three times...way overkill. Novemberjazz 03:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
So what it the most responsible way for us editors to deal with this on the page? I think it needs to be recorded. Realitylink ( talk) 04:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. That has been done today and almost word-for-word what I had in draft form! Great communication. We wait and watch to see what emerges as I am sure this story has more distance to go. Realitylink ( talk) 05:57, 19 September 2020 (UTC)